Thank you :) Gay-For-You and Out-For-You is so not the same thing.

I prefer the "Out for You" term and can see what you're saying, Erica.

But there is a theory that there is no such thing as "Gay for You" except in the concept of a bi-sexual man having sex with, or expressing love for, another man but not "identifying" as gay, which is usually not the plot arc!

I can quote real life people if needed.....Initials M.D. ring a bell?

A.B. wrote: "But there is a theory that there is no such thing as "Gay for You" except in the concept of a bi-sexual man having sex with, or expressing love for, another man but not "identifying" as gay, which is usually not the plot arc!"

Yeah, I know. I've read the theory and agree that a person would be bi if they went into a same-sex relationship without being homosexual.

However, there are books with Out For You themes and then there are books with Gay For You themes, and they're not the same thing. I've read several where the person has no desires for anyone other than the person they're involved with and wouldn't "be gay for" anyone else. It's often the straight friend who falls in love with the gay friend, and although in real life that would mean the straight friend would be bi, the books hint and/or say that he wouldn't "be gay" for anyone else. That's what I call Gay-For-You.

What I call Out-For-You is when a closeted gay man comes out because he's in love with another man and (usually) wants a relationship (whether it's out to the world or just out to himself after denial).

Erica wrote: "in real life that would mean the straight friend would be bi, the books hint and/or say that he wouldn't "be gay" for anyone else. That's what I call Gay-For-You."

So totally with you there.

Interestingly, some publishers (and readers) will not allow that heterosexual former life shown in their stories. I know when Margie Church wrote Hard as Teak there were qualms and comments about the fact that the book started with him having sex with a female.

Apparently, it's a no-no with readers. But that's what life is about.

I must admit, however that I can sympathise with women in real life whose husbands play around with other men and excuse themselves that they are not being unfaithful as it is with a man not a woman. Another minefield....

But when it comes to m/m romances, there must be an HEA where the two main characters end up with each other for ever....

A.B. wrote: "Interestingly, some publishers (and readers) will not allow that heterosexual former life shown in their stories. I know when Margie Church wrote Hard as Teak there were qualms and comments about the fact that the book started with him having sex with a female.

Apparently, it's a no-no with readers. But that's what life is about."

Ahem...that's sort of how the short story I'm working on starts (not having sex though, just a morning after scene). I could change it, but it would take so much away from the story. It's about a very, very closeted college guy.

I think it was the graphicness of the scene that they objected to. A mention of it happening should be fine.

This was the sort of reaction that made me concerned that publishers are using reader's expectations to mould what is written. Not a good sign.

A.B., if you haven't read it, I bet you'd like the end of Voinov's Dark Soul series (if you don't mind the serious kinks in the stories). The ending is not the typical M/M HEA.

I love this list. I added 4 to it right off the bat. =)

Great list, I now have lots to pick from. I LOVE out and gay for you stories! Added the first book from 3 of my favorite series. :) let me know if they don't work.

Faith & Fidelity feels like gay-for-you and not out-for-you. I've read only half of it, so maybe I'm wrong.

In my efforts to understand this difference between Gay for You and Out for You, I've been asking myself what if the person who persuaded or mentored the other person to act on their feelings, (whether repressed, unrecognised or never felt before) died. Once the grieving was over, would they go back into the closet or back with another female or would they end up considering other males. If the latter, I see them as Out for You and the former "Gay for You"

I remember we had this discussion on Aleks Voinov's board about "Special Forces" If Vadim had died, what would Dan have done.

There is a corollary to "Gay for YOU" in that with some bi guys, I wonder if the female they are with is the "special one" ie a case of "Straight for YOU", and they actually aren't interested in other females, but are happy to be promiscuous with males.

I'm not really trying to put people in boxes, but recognise the myriad goal, motivations and conflicts that can occur.

I wasn't sure about that one, but I remember the widowed character had been with a man before his wife. or maybe I was thinking of something else...

Nemesis wrote: "Faith & Fidelity feels like gay-for-you and not out-for-you. I've read only half of it, so maybe I'm wrong."

I agree. Faith & Fidelity is just straight up gay-for-you! Also I feel the same with Hot Head.