Laurent wrote: "I know that what i'm going to write will inevitably annoy some people - frankly I don't give an Ulsio's arse!
I am old enough to have read most of the SCIFI greats (and some not so great) and I ha..."

Thing is that good creations stand out and turn into classics + your own appriciation for certain style is formed from your first experiences. If you are old enough that your childhood books were Asimov's etc, you had your first rush and mind-expand from those and it's hard to generate the same kind of state from similar books or movies. There are plenty of good scifi created every year. Three-body problem, The Expanse series etc. And also there is a lot of subpar stuff coming out as well, but that has always been the thing. How could one recognize greatness if there is no mediocrity?

Laurent wrote: "I know that what i'm going to write will inevitably annoy some people - frankly I don't give an Ulsio's arse!
I am old enough to have read most of the SCIFI greats (and some not so great) and I ha..."

I would argue that Greg Bear, Gregory Benford, Dan Simmons, Tony Daniel, Peter F. Hamilton and the likes have made good sci-fi as well, two decades ago.

Laurent wrote: "I know that what i'm going to write will inevitably annoy some people - frankly I don't give an Ulsio's arse!
I am old enough to have read most of the SCIFI greats (and some not so great) and I ha..."
Ah Laurent, I have to fund my daughter's pony habit with the money left over from buying SFF. I agree that the direction that SFF is taking is leaving this old bird a bit behind and I'm less and less interested in the majority of books, but that doesn't mean that they are bad (the Expanse Series for instance is great), just that they are different and I'm getting old, as I suspect you are. When I re-read some of the classics such as Heinlein or Banks they sometimes leave a bad taste in my mouth as well, no matter how much I still love them.

Laurent wrote: "I know that what i'm going to write will inevitably annoy some people - frankly I don't give an Ulsio's arse!
I am old enough to have read most of the SCIFI greats (and some not so great) and I ha..."

Have you read Rosewater by Tade Thompson or Lagoon by Nnedi Okorafor? Dynamite stuff.

Birçoğunun Türkçe çevirisi olmadığı İçin kapaklarına bakıp geçtim. Can sıkıcı.

I would add anything by Guy Gavriel Kay (canadian) ....a bit of history, mixed in with fantasy and sometimes magic. Beautifully written.
"The majority of his novels take place in fictional settings that resemble real places during real historical periods."

How many new names! How many new books!
Oh, 24hours is not enough for everything + reading. I need more hours!

Wow, first time looking at a Goodreads thread and it's a train wreck. Not sure why I expected it to be any different than the rest of the internet. LOL

Laurent wrote: "I know that what i'm going to write will inevitably annoy some people - frankly I don't give an Ulsio's arse!
I am old enough to have read most of the SCIFI greats (and some not so great) and I ha..."

agree and disagree.
agree: good lord but there are some terrible books out there. they are nothing more than formulaic nonsense with an overcoat of 'space' or 'future' or whatever the author/publisher believes will give it the sci-fi thumbs up. don't make me name them.
disagree: it's always like this, and it always will be. but in every decade since humans began writing about subjects that were more imaginative than than reality-based, there have been and will continue to be good, imaginative, creative books that can be classified as sci-fi or fantasy. They also happen to be good books, regardless of classification. These i'm ready to name - thank you
Mary Doria Russell, Jennifer Egan, Lev Grossman, etc. etc. etc.

The trilogy by Ann Leckie is very good. "Engine Summer" by John Crowley is also considered Science Fiction.

Amanda wrote: "Where are all the Indie authors? Seriously, this list is crap. The Indie fantasy/urban fantasy/sci-fi scene is rich, diverse and every bit as good and sometimes FAR better in terms of quality than ..." Ooh, suggestions???

Cosmic horror, anyone?

Laurent wrote: "I know that what i'm going to write will inevitably annoy some people - frankly I don't give an Ulsio's arse!
I am old enough to have read most of the SCIFI greats (and some not so great) and I ha..."
Thank you for this perspective. I agree there has been a change.
I call it old and new school Sci-Fi/Fantasy.
Some really good stories are coming out, but there is something different for the most part. Having read a few old "greats" and some that are now just old, but had that "thing," I think it's a change in the writing. I do miss "it."
Anyone have more ideas about what "it" is? (dissertations anyone?) ;-)

Amanda wrote: "Where are all the Indie authors? Seriously, this list is crap. The Indie fantasy/urban fantasy/sci-fi scene is rich, diverse and every bit as good and sometimes FAR better in terms of quality than ..."

Amen! I'm an indie fantasy author and no one asked me to be on this list.

Jason A. Brown wrote: "Wow, first time looking at a Goodreads thread and it's a train wreck. Not sure why I expected it to be any different than the rest of the internet. LOL"

It really is! Most of the time, it's just people complaining about authors of the books on the list not being diverse enough. Honestly, this community has traded caring about good character development and storytelling for every other "progressive" complaint: who the authors are sleeping with, what's between their legs, the color of their skin, or what they identify has.

Is classic Space Opera no longer a genre?

Laurent wrote: "I know that what i'm going to write will inevitably annoy some people - frankly I don't give an Ulsio's arse!
I am old enough to have read most of the SCIFI greats (and some not so great) and I ha..."

Wow, I love classic SF but I can tell you really haven't read the great SF writers putting out content today. There's plenty of bad SF, but there always was. Go back and actually read some of the old SF magazines (especially the non-prestige ones) and look at how much schlock and garbage there always has been.

Why doesn't your list have any traditional FANTASY books?? There are lots of good authors producing high quality fantasy books that are not Urban Fantasy.
This brings the whole list's credibility into question.

I agree with all who are looking for more fantasy subgenres.

Some interesting reads. Gonna need to add these to my never-ending reading list!

Jennifer wrote: "If it's sci-fi and FANTASY week, where are the Fantasy sub genres?"
100%

I have never been into sci-fi but I read Guardian of the Palace by Steven J. Morris and I really enjoyed it! I’m excited to venture out into this new genre!

wild how urban fantasy is a genre created by and dominated by women but the recs are mostly written by dudes

Contrarius wrote: "Did you pay any attention AT ALL to the books and authors on the list, or do you just get a kick out of making up nonsense? "

Your own data shows that Keith isn't spouting nonsense, although his comments do have a degree of hyperbole. You've performed a fantastic analysis, but if you summarise the granularity you've highlighted in percentage terms, it does lend weight to Keith's initial gut-feel impression.

Here's some examples (using your own statistics):

- 80% of all the listed authors are white.
- Almost 70% are American.
- 43% of the list are white female authors. Of these, 2/3rds are American.
- There is only a single American black female author listed.
- There are only 4 British male authors listed.
etc, etc...

I'm sure others can calculate their own values to highlight other over- or under-representations.

Of course, for any truly proportional, representational accuracy, you need to know the total published counts of authors on a global (or at least 'US & Commonwealth' regional basis), diced up by their profile and book genre dimensions, sliced by per-book sales and date period.

But, do any such public statistics exist? Obviously - indeed, hopefully - they do within Amazon's own confidential trove of commercial book sales data and other respected sources commercially distributed to publishers.

The immediate solution, as you rightly point out, is for people to highlight alternative, under-represented, authors, from niche genres and smaller imprints, or otherwise.

The longer-term solution is for bias to be eliminated from these kinds of promotional-based selection and highlighting campaigns undertaken by Goodreads staff. My own gut-feel is that such selections are conducted in the main by white, American females - hence the 'like-reads-like' inherent bias we're observing in this current campaign. It's very likely not an uncommon industry problem, given the obvious issues with diversity across several measures (a humanities-mirrored version of well-known STE(A)M recruitment issues).

But only Goodreads can confirm or deny that bold presumption, hopefully by showing us some hard data. This seems to be a rarity within the publishing industry, outside of the usual retrospective sales/bestseller dumps. But very happy to be corrected on any of the above. You learn a lot faster from your errors. As any budding author who has submitted their novel to a literary agent will attest....

JAKE/GEEK: Quest for Oshi
Tween SciFi/Tech Fantasy. Check it out! It's a page-turner!

Johnathan wrote: "Contrarius wrote: "Did you pay any attention AT ALL to the books and authors on the list, or do you just get a kick out of making up nonsense? "

Your own data shows that Keith isn't spouting nonsense, although his comments do have a degree of hyperbole. ..."

Ahhh but he was, because he declared the hyperbole as being reality -- and especially, as I mentioned in my previous post, because he claimed that several authors were intentionally left off the list because their politics are supposedly too liberal for it. I mean, has he bothered to check out ANY of the listed authors?? Obviously not.

Yes, obviously, the list is heavily weighted to American and British authors. Goodreads is an American-owned site, after all, and almost exclusively English-language based. That is neither racist nor discriminatory. And it does include several minority groups -- again neither racist nor discriminatory. Really, the biggest justified complaint he might make is that the list doesn't include identifiably Latinx authors (Simon Jimenez identifies as Filipino-American), especially given that authors like Silvia Moreno-Garcia and others have recent very popular works available.

"There is only a single American black female author listed."

This is a small point, but it's probably not true. In addition to NK Jemisin, Micaiah Johnson identifies as biracial. I just didn't take the time to track down which races are in that makeup.

"I'm sure others can calculate their own values to highlight other over- or under-representations."

"Best of" lists should not be a matter of quotas. They don't have to match population demographics exactly. The point is that there are many races and nationalities represented on this list -- it is not at all exclusionary.

Excellent list!!! Added many to my want to reads

where is Philip Pullman and his Dark Materials?

Kate Elliott's UNCONQUERABLE SUN should have made this list either as space opera or a retelling. It's a clever gender-bent version of Alexander-the-Great, but in space. The more one knows about his career, the more fun it is, finding the parallels and embedded Easter eggs.

Looks like an advertisement list rather than a proper pick of sub genres' books. Disgraceful.

I’m not touching race or gender as they are usually divisive.

As to authors, have a look at my read list for 2021. There are, at a very rough count, over 40 authors not mentioned. They include Australian, Singaporean, New Zealanders, Canadians, UK people, people from the United State’s, French, Indian, United Arab Emirates, etc. Please note, a significant number of authors I’ve read aren’t available on Amazon so Goodreads does not seem to include them in any lists as they don’t want given them any publicity.

I also suggest you look at Locus lists, non-popularity awards such as the BSFA and The Kitchies (not the Hugo or nebula as they are voted by people from lists dominated by US citizens).

Thanks for other comments, and yes I often speak in too much hyperbole, but I find difficult to criticise in a semi-polite manner in other words, but I do apologise if that gets in the way.

Also, where did this nonsense come from: “ I mean, has he bothered to check out ANY of the listed authors?? Obviously not.”. If you bothered to check my read list, I HAVE read some of the books and many of the authors, but facts are often awkward.

Amanda wrote: "Where are all the Indie authors? Seriously, this list is crap. The Indie fantasy/urban fantasy/sci-fi scene is rich, diverse and every bit as good and sometimes FAR better in terms of quality than ..."

Couldn't agree more!

LectoraEstherica wrote: "Jade city! By Fonda Lee, low fantasy, asian inspired and mafiosa family!"

I love Jade City and the world Fonda created. I have Jade War to read on my shelf but I'm saving it until we are closer to the release of Jade Legacy this year, before reading it.

Amanda wrote: "Where are all the Indie authors? Seriously, this list is crap. The Indie fantasy/urban fantasy/sci-fi scene is rich, diverse and every bit as good and sometimes FAR better in terms of quality than ..."

I don't think there is much thought behind those lists and the writers are obviously shills for mainstream publishers.

Keith wrote: "I’m not touching race or gender as they are usually divisive."

You already *did* touch race and gender when you explicitly accused the list of being "racist and discriminatory". But I'm glad to see you backing away from that claim now.

" As to authors, have a look at my read list for 2021. There are, at a very rough count, over 40 authors not mentioned. "

So freakin' what? This is not a list of "every book that has been published in the last two years." Your personal reading list is irrelevant.

"Also, where did this nonsense come from: “ I mean, has he bothered to check out ANY of the listed authors?? Obviously not.”. If you bothered to check my read list, I HAVE read some of the books and many of the authors"

Hey -- if you get to make hyperbolic claims, then so do I. ;-)

There are many authors named in this list whom you clearly are NOT familiar with -- because if you were, you wouldn't have made that idiotic claim about politics in the first place. Unless, of course, you just enjoy making idiotic claims.

Laurent wrote: "I know that what i'm going to write will inevitably annoy some people - frankly I don't give an Ulsio's arse!
I am old enough to have read most of the SCIFI greats (and some not so great) and I ha..."
well said

Laurent wrote: "I know that what i'm going to write will inevitably annoy some people - frankly I don't give an Ulsio's arse!
I am old enough to have read most of the SCIFI greats (and some not so great) and I ha..."
This list would back up your point but look at books from James S. A. Corey, the pseudonym of authors Daniel Abraham and Ty Franck, Books by Lui Cixin or Nnedi Okorafor. Still plenty of sci-fi to enjoy which is why its the list that annoys me and not your comments. What's also disappointing about the list? I came looking for Fantasy books as I already know many great sci-fi novels but this list was lacking on that front as well.

❣️ Bright Familiar & Wave Rider❣️

The subgenres sneered at/unrecognized by the GR Team⁉️😝

My last comment is, aside from describing a lie as nonsense, I have made NO personal attacks on Contarius. My suggestion to look at my list was to illustrate the breadth of available books, I made no claim they were all good or bad. I have read over 90% of the authors on the lists in some literary form or another (e.g short story, poem, etc.), so assumptions being bandied around about my ignorance are amusing and wrong.

I am not religious but to quote the bible
“ Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
Or you will also be like him.
Answer a fool as his folly deserves,
That he not be wise in his own eyes.” Proverbs 26:4 & 26.5.

So, I’m heeding that advice and saying good bye to this thread.

Keith wrote: "My last comment is, aside from describing a lie as nonsense, I have made NO personal attacks. "

So.... according to you, "racist" is not a personal attack? Accusing listmakers of ignoring authors because of their politics -- especially when multiple authors with the same politics are easily visible right there on the list -- is not a personal attack?

Uhhhhh-huh.

"My suggestion to look at my list was to illustrate the breadth of available books, I made no claim they were all good or bad."

You tried to use your own reading list as a justification for attacking the GR suggested reading list. But, again, your personal reading list is totally irrelevant.

"I have read over 90% of the authors on the lists in some literary form or another (e.g short story, poem, etc.), so assumptions being bandied around about my ignorance are amusing and wrong."

If you can actually read most of the authors on this list and yet STILL utter that ludicrous claim about authors being eliminated for their politics, then refer back to my earlier statement about getting enjoyment from idiocy.

Danni wrote: "Jennifer wrote: "If it's sci-fi and FANTASY week, where are the Fantasy sub genres?"

apparently Fantasy sub-genres are limited to Urban fantasy and Retellings. 😒"

And Alternate History. Those are more fantasy than scifi.

I guess this would be "Technological Advances" on the blog's list... best description I've seen of it has been a review which called it "Deep Space Noir".

Other Rhodes by Sarah A. Hoyt

Contrarius wrote: "Laurent wrote: "I know that what i'm going to write will inevitably annoy some people - frankly I don't give an Ulsio's arse!
I am old enough to have read most of the SCIFI greats (and some not so..."

Lol! You nailed it.

Keith wrote: "Interesting and ultimately very biased, racist and discriminatory list. Obviously most non-north American authors aren’t any good according to good reads. Where are most of the south Asian writers,..."

It's not discriminatory just because there's no "Trans Sci/Fi List" any more than it's discriminatory because it has any other subculture alluring to a tiny portion of the population. There's no "Atheist Sci/Fi" either...such things are just elements of foundations of certain stories.

The idea that something is discriminatory if it is not inclusive of some woke ideal is killing good stories and series as people insert things clumsily into stories where they don't belong.

Heinlein (my favorite) didn't have any problem putting bisexual or homosexual elements in his stories nearly 50 years ago, but it was always a part of the story that was not forced. Nor did you get the idea that he was adding those elements deliberately to placate ephemeral politics.

Kevin wrote: "This is all "old" genres; what about newer (sub)genres like LitRPG?"

Sounds interesting. Nominate some!

My daughter and I were discussing books and she mention a sub genre - solar punk, as distinct from steampunk. I am interested in learning more. Authors, book titles. Anyone have some suggestions?

Jane wrote: "My daughter and I were discussing books and she mention a sub genre - solar punk, as distinct from steampunk. I am interested in learning more. Authors, book titles. Anyone have some suggestions?"

Becky Chambers is a good place to start.

https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/8...
https://www.goodreads.com/shelf/show/...

Contrarius wrote: " ...let's see the names!"


Nnedi Okorafor, the Naijamerican author of the science fiction novella Remote Control, published by Tordotcom Publishing on January 19, 2021

Kim Bo-Young the Korean author of the short story collection I'm Waiting for You and Other Stories (translated from the original Hangul by Sophie Bowman and Sung Ryu), published by Harper Voyager on April 6, 2021

Joan He, Asian-American author of the YA-in-marketing-only science fiction novel The Ones We're Meant to Find, published by Roaring Brook Press on May 4, 2021

Ryan wrote: "Lui Cixin " Yep, I was thinking about his books not being here.

Also, Alastair Reynolds is missing and he's insanely good!

Still, there are lots of insanely cool books and authors on the list and it likely wouldn't be practicable to stuff everyone worthy of reading in.