City of Copying Other Great Works (Mortal Instruments #Too Many)

[Andre]

Well, lets have a look, where is it?:)

[Spider the Doof Warrior]

http://www.goodreads.com/story/show/2... Here, but I updated it in my mind and will have to add that version. I'm trying to handwrite a new draft and NOT stop writing that and rewrite the draft i'm writing, but it's difficult.

Let me know if it's dippy, but a lot is going to change.

[Andre]

Well lets see, lets just hope you didn't to the Clare-thing ;)

[Spider the Doof Warrior]

Well yeah, but you can at least make an effort to make it your own. For example the writer of those Eragon books. UGH. He is NOT Tolkien, dang it!

[Andre]

Definitely not. But Clare apparently made no effort to make it her own. And sorry Elizabeth but Clare's books have a bit too many similarities with other books to just say what you said. What she had she did not even use right. Like the vampire scene in Dumort.

[Vale]

Even though there're indeed some ideas that I think MIGHT have been influenced by HP books ("mundanes", Valentine's Circle,etc) I still think it's a good book and has a plot of its own. Maybe you should read the other books because, at least in my opinion, the story gets a lot better and the first one is the less interesting one of the 5 books...

[Reader-ramble]

Okay, look here. I keep seeing the "nothing is truly original" argument. As a writer, I know this. What matter is that the writer can take the tropes and make them their own.

Take the monster hunter. It's a modern fantasy trope that has been around as long as monsters. It's practically a subgenre in and of itself. Does anyone remember Van Helsing from Dracula? When urban fantasy became popular, so did the monster hunter. The Buffy-style witty tough chick became popular, and now most of the monster hunters are female. Male ones are actually quite rare. They've become popular on TV, but I'm pretty sure that's due to attracting a female audience with hunky eye candy. If you are a fan of the monster hunter genre, like me, I suggest checking out Seanan McGuire's Incryptid novels which start with Discount Armageddon. They're funny, and manage to be more original than anything Clare ever did. Sorry fans. (I also suggest this series to those who want original were stories.)

And then there is the rune system. This is actually a popular magic system to use in fantasy, but it has been done better. Any FMA fan can attest to it. Peter V. Brett's The Warded Man is a great example as well. Unlike Clare's system, it has rules. Clare's magic system does work more in a deus ex machina fashion, with runes only being used when convenient and not really as a part of the character's way of life.

Then there is the concept of Nephilim. I've seen that word so often recently, I've developed a twitch. These half angel hybrids have become all the rage these days and only a couple of them make me not want to strangle anyone who says it. The first one is Dante from Devil May Cry. He goes all the way back to the early 90s. My husband is a huge DMC fan and I've played the new game they've released. While remixed Dante is half demon and half angel, I don't feel like I'm suffering through some ridiculous attempt to explain why he's so special. Like Jace, he's full of himself, but unlike Jace, no so much he isn't a good guy when he needs to be. I like him better.

Then there is James Stark from Richard Kadrey's Sandman Slim. He ain't pretty no more, but he can put a boot up some demonic ass. He's enjoys the simple things in life and isn't exactly a brainiac, but he has his charms if you like the tough guys you find in pulpy fiction.

So there, I just demonstrated the familiar things about Clare's work without bringing up Harry Potter or Star Wars. She uses tropes that are popular, but doesn't really handle them well at all.

[Cinthya]

rayful wrote: "So I'll come right out and say that I hated this book. I didn't even bother with the others because, uhm, there's really no point. What I don't understand is how people can really enjoy this book..."

I didn´t like the books, I´m the kind of people that when starts reading a serie finish to read all the books, but with this story I just couldn´t read the third book, I don´t know what I didn´t like, but now when I think about it well... you are right

[Andre]

LeeAnna:
Thank you, I could kiss and marry you right now. :)

There are other tropes as well.
Her vampires are these super-pretty, super pale twilight vampires, except that they don't sparkle. They don't even use their gifts fully, which was not only obvious in CoB but also Clockwork Angel when they actually tried to squeeze themselves through doors in stead of jumping through windows or transform into bats to escape the burning room, and these vampires burn extremely fast by the way.

I don't think I have to point out how common a trope her werewolves are.

The vampire werewolf conflict... do I really have to say where that came from?

These fey have no justification for existing apart from adding tension and drama out of nowhere and it is never properly explained which creatures belong to them and which not.

The warlocks as being half-demons is also far from new. It has been done to the death with Merlin and others. But unlike in their case Clare never explained properly why Demons would sire them and how. So far she stated revenge and all, but what sort of revenge is that?

Heck not even the demons she gets right. The world she created is based on our own so the demons and all should fit. Ifrits were very pwerful djinn in Arabic mythology so making them magicless warlocks makes no sense. Kali was rather a destroyer of Demons so have her being a name for Lilith doesn't fit at all. The biblical behemoth is a big and powerful animal, not slow giant slug and Iblis is an Islamic name for the devil, not for some halfwit demon. All her demons and names don't fit that at all.

And just for the record, I read all her TMI books because I kept asking myself what it is that draws people to it and personally I think these books became only worse. Book 4 was a drag and book 5... I wanted to have Clary eaten by a T-rex.

[Spider the Doof Warrior]

Or a team of feathery raptors. She frustrates me. I intend on making an effort here. A huge one

[Lena]

i understand if you dislike the book due to the entire based on harry potter fanfiction problem, but to say that there are TOO MANY BOOKS and thats the ONLY REASON WHY THIS IS A HORRIBLE SERIES. are you serious? Cassandra Clare is an author and believe it or not, writing books is her job! The day that "writing too many books" becomes a crime will be the same day that people start accusing firemen of saving too many people.

[Mariana]

Lena wrote: "i understand if you dislike the book due to the entire based on harry potter fanfiction problem, but to say that there are TOO MANY BOOKS and thats the ONLY REASON WHY THIS IS A HORRIBLE SERIES. ar..."

You couldn't be more right!!

[Mariana]

LeeAnna wrote: "Okay, look here. I keep seeing the "nothing is truly original" argument. As a writer, I know this. What matter is that the writer can take the tropes and make them their own.

Take the monster hunt..."

I see what you're trying to say, but it's been said that every story is based in some way on "The 1,001 Nights"

[Reader-ramble]

Andre wrote: "LeeAnna:
Thank you, I could kiss and marry you right now. :)

There are other tropes as well.
Her vampires are these super-pretty, super pale twilight vampires, except that they don't sparkle. They..."

@Andre: Thanks for the compliment, but I'm already married. :)

@Mariana: I see that you missed my point. Did you not just see the list of works I added that use the same tropes as Clare, but do them better? My point wasn't that these tropes have been done before. My point was that Clare executes them poorly. I'm not talking about originality. I'm talking about skill.

@Lena: Here is the thing about book series, they need to end. Stories aren't real life. They have to make sense and they have to end. Writers who keep pumping out books just to capitalize on a character's popularity have a tendency to ruin everything they have created. Yes, it is her job to write books, but she had no problem writing another series set in the same world as before with different characters. (Although that is debatable depending on who you talk to.) Why not do it again? It shows great restrain and discipline for a writer to say, "That is that. I'm moving on," despite the shrieks of his/her fans. Many a writer does quite well with multiple works that have nothing to do with the other.

[Lauren Ngo]

OK people listen up there is no need to hate on each other because of the difference in opinion it's true some of Clare's ideas come from other books i can say not all her ideas are original i can say i really didn't like her Infernal Device Series and city of ashes wasn't a favorite of mine and some of the characters are down right annoying but Clare is an amazing author and how many people can say they've wrote an international best selling series yeah not that many her ideas may have came off other works but she made those ideas her own every author got there idea some where for people who don't like the series thanks for sharing your opinion everyone has their own ideas not everyone can like something and for those who do like the series you can point out the good in the book/series but you shouldn't go and stomp all over others that don't share your opinion well thats may little rant hope this helps people stop hating on each other

[Andre]

How good a book is and how good an author is can to some extent be measured. But not by how many books someone sells. It can be measured by use of words, internal consistency, lack of spelling errors and the genral creation of secondary reality and in all this Clare pretty much fails.

And how did she make these ideas her own in your eyes? None of you defenders ever stated why. So enlighten us.

And stop claiming we critics hate something just because we criticise. If a book doesn't hold up to analyzes it is not because someone hates it, it is because the author didn't do a good job.

See Anne Rice, she did several series, long running ones, but she did and it worked and she kept it consistent.

Now as for Clare's skill, LeeAnna has a very good point:
The first scene in CoB already made no sense. If that Eidolon demon says to himself that he should have known better then why didn't he? I mean how many people run around in hot and sweaty clubs in an all-body dress like Isabelle?
Also outside of the club Clary was standing in a line far away from the Eidolon, how could she see his eyes?
And why did he hunt at the Pandamonium anyway? That place is full of Downworlders and they aren't friends with demons as well, not to mention that there would be tons of witnesses around, did he really think no one would suspect anything if he goes with someone in a room and only he ever comes out? Also wouldn't Downworlders be able to see his glamour over the weapon?
And if he is a shapeshifter why does he need a weapon when he can grow razor sharp claws? And why did he not use his shapeshifting to escape the whip, he could break its hold after all, and why did he attack Jace instead of trying to get away? The Shadowhunters were distracted, so why did he attack them when he had already been trapped by them before.
And if according to Jace this Eidolon was one in a very long line of demons claiming that Valentine is back, then why did no one ever investigate this? Why did they always sweep it under the rug?
Why did Jace drop his weapon just because Clary talked? He must have faced worse surprises than that.
And what was the whole exposition thing about, why didn't he just kill the demon?
And speaking of the Eidolon's attack: when it happened the text stated that Isabelle and Alec were running towards Jace and the Eidolon, but only a few sentences before it was stated that they had been no more than 1-2 steps away from them, how can you start running at such a short distance?
And why did Clary try to go after them if she is from Brooklyn and things they are a gang?
The whole scene makes no sense for the stated background.

[Callie]

rayful wrote: "So I'll come right out and say that I hated this book. I didn't even bother with the others because, uhm, there's really no point. What I don't understand is how people can really enjoy this book..."

That's cool, bro. I gotcha. I get where the Supernatural is tossed in too. But the thing is the first book is crap. But the rest actually get better. Like I think you should just try the next one and if you don't like it then feel free to send me letters filled with undiluted bubotuber pus.

[Andre]

If the fist book is crap in your eyes, why did you gave it 5 stars?

[Mariana]

LeeAnna wrote: "Andre wrote: "LeeAnna:
Thank you, I could kiss and marry you right now. :)

There are other tropes as well.
Her vampires are these super-pretty, super pale twilight vampires, except that they don't..."

Yes I saw them, how could I not? It's about personal opinion, not skill. You don't like the book/series, so Clare's writing doesn't impress you. But for those that do like her writing, we say she does have skill/talent and we're impressed. I'm sorry, but I don't agree.

[Andre]

Catherine wrote: "I've only read the first book in the series. This is mainly because I thought it was OKAY (not horrible, but not great) and I have many more pressing books to read.
My husband really likes the s..."

Well for me they were easy to read, that could be counted as positive and I think it would not be difficult to read.

[Reader-ramble]

@Catherine: No, they were fairly easy to read, just not easy to get through. I admit Clare does pace well in the original trilogy (I haven't read the rest.) and I was quite saddened her writing didn't improve by the end of the third book. She wrote over 150k for three books, and nothing changed in her style or skill. That is why they were difficult for me to get through. But I read like a writer, not reader. It apparently makes a difference.

[Spider the Doof Warrior]

I am a wannabee writer. I really want to do BETTER than this. Less stereotypes, more strong female characters, people of colour and gay folks is what I want in stories.

Also Shapeshifters. And people with wings.I just like wings.

[Andre]

Well, I personally don't think she got better later on.

[Mizuki]

Andre wrote: "Well, I personally don't think she got better later on."

I lost what little respect I had for Clare once I learnt she recycled her story and characters in TDI series.

[Andre]

Probably for the better. ;)

[Maureen]

Cassandra has no originality, and can not write for shit. The dialog was terrible, "Said Jace...Clary thought..." It was all a bunch of he said/she said. literally.

[Gabby]

Ugh. I can't believe people are still commenting on this thread...

[Andre]

Believe it. The topic is still ongoing since so far there has been no improvement in Clare's books.

[Gabby]

Because she hasn't released any since I was on here last.

[Mizuki]

Andre wrote: "Believe it. The topic is still ongoing since so far there has been no improvement in Clare's books."

The release of that City of Bones movies also keeps this thread alive. I'm sure.

[Andre]

Mizuki wrote: "Andre wrote: "Believe it. The topic is still ongoing since so far there has been no improvement in Clare's books."

The release of that City of Bones movies also keeps this thread alive. I'm sure."

Surely. Supposedly Clare was involved in how the film would look like... Really? Is that why the vampires look more like the Reapers from Blade II than the sexy sexy crowd from her book?

Gabby wrote: "Because she hasn't released any since I was on here last."

According to the search engine you were on this thread the last time on 6thJun. Since then 2 more Bane Chronicles books have come out with another one coming out next week and all have her name and Brennan's as authors. So yes, she did release books.

[A]

I hate this whole awfully plagiarised series! I hate Cassandre Clare.

[Gabby]

Andre wrote: "Mizuki wrote: "Andre wrote: "Believe it. The topic is still ongoing since so far there has been no improvement in Clare's books."

The release of that City of Bones movies also keeps this thread al..."

Why do you read them if you hate her so much lol

[Andre]

Gabby wrote: "Andre wrote: "Mizuki wrote: "Andre wrote: "Believe it. The topic is still ongoing since so far there has been no improvement in Clare's books."

The release of that City of Bones movies also keeps ..."

I am not gonna repeat what I said plenty of times.

And back at you. What are you doing in this thread when you apparently cannot stand it and don't consider criticsm of Clare valid?

And don't try to change the subject. It is a fact that you were wrong when you stated that Clare had not published any new books.

PS. At least try to be respectful and not constantly laugh at other people's opinion simply because they dopn't agree with you.

[Mizuki]

Andre wrote: "Surely. Supposedly Clare was involved in how the film would look like... Really? Is that why the vampires look more like the Reapers from Blade II than the sexy sexy crowd from her book?"

I didn't know that. But one look at the actress who plays Clary, my breath caught at my throat because I'm so sure I'd caught sight of a Mary Sue. That suits Clary character perfectly.

[Gabby]

Andre wrote: "Gabby wrote: "Andre wrote: "Mizuki wrote: "Andre wrote: "Believe it. The topic is still ongoing since so far there has been no improvement in Clare's books."

The release of that City of Bones movi..."

1) "don't try and change the subject" I didn't realise that's the thought I gave off when I asked you why you still read them

2) I actually thought about if she had published anything else, and I didn't think you counted the Bane chronicles as they have not been published into the paperback version yet

3) I said "lol" as a way of trying to lighten up the mood.

[Andre]

I have to be honest with you. The average Clare fan comes along as quite offensive when you even mention the similarities with other titles. So I would say, you should never again try to lighten up the mood on this matter anywhere. Since quite frankly, I think the time in which that was possible is long gone. I have no idea why these books would create such loyalty in its fans since I don't get in the slightest how they could be good, not in topic, not in writing, not in anything.

And the Bane Chronicles came out as an e-book, so they are books. If not all the e-book version of TMI and TID would not count as books also. In addition the Chronicles are a clear example of Clare's and Brennan's writing so I think when commenting about her writing they are a perfectly valid example either way.
And don't know whether you read them yet but in case you haven't I think you should better prepare yourself. Many people love them but many others hate them. And in each case I am talking about Magnus fans. These books caused many of them to hate their beloved warlock.
I personally think that the biggest failure of the series is that despite the I think fifth book coming out this month we still know nothing more about Magnus's background. She never went back further than 1791 so far and apparently Magnus is rarely using his glamour and despite that he can walk around everywhere. Literally everywhere. She wanted us to believe that the people in 1791 Paris think his eyes are a fashion trick. By the way in that time he also was friends with everyone in Parisean high society. Except for th royals, but he met them as well. I better stop, or I start listing everything what was wrong about that scenario.

Mizuki wrote: "I didn't know that. But one look at the actress who plays Clary, my breath caught at my throat because I'm so sure I'd caught sight of a Mary Sue. That suits Clary character perfectly.
"
Well Clare claims to have been involved... but to be honest I don't give much on her claims anymore. Not with everything and how she refers to Magnus and Jem and every other "non-white" of her books.

[A]

Andre wrote: "I have to be honest with you. The average Clare fan comes along as quite offensive when you even mention the similarities with other titles. So I would say, you should never again try to lighten up..."

GO ANDRE GO !!!

[Mizuki]

Andre wrote: "And in each case I am talking about Magnus fans. These books caused many of them to hate their beloved warlock."

For this reason alone I'll avoid this Bane series thingy like plague. Can't bare to see Clare ruin yet one of the few characters in her books whom I like.

Well Clare claims to have been involved... but to be honest I don't give much on her claims anymore.
I don't know what to think about it, I can only hope she didn't insert herself in CoB movie like S.Meyer had done in the first movie of Twilight.=__=

[Gabby]

Woah, dude, I understand that we had some pretty strong arguments before and I was trying not to continue them by tryng to lighten up the mood. Just because we have different opinions on this topic, doesn't mean we have to be totally rude to each other all the time. I'm still a person no matter what my opinion is of CC, and I deserve (Like everyone else) to be treated with respect.

[Andre]

I have no problem with respect. But I don't think that this issue can actually be taken lightly anymore, not when it causes such strong reactions in the fans. Would Clare's books be just books they would never have become so popular, there must be something in the fans that responds to what her books do and the fact that the average fan seems to devour her works so unquestioningly despite the main characters such incredibly unlikeable people concerns those of us who do not like them. Then there of course the many inconsistencies and plotholes her stories have and still her fans defend her every word as it seems. Now can you honestly tell me that something like that is normal and should be taken lightly?

[A]

Andre wrote: "I have no problem with respect. But I don't think that this issue can actually be taken lightly anymore, not when it causes such strong reactions in the fans. Would Clare's books be just books they..."

I agree with you. I don't know how Clare brainwashes her fans that they turn a blind eye towards the plagiarism in her books, her awfully conceived socially unacceptable characters Jace the bighead and her actions of cyber bullying against those who criticise her works....the fans do anything to protect their precious Clare :p

[Reader-ramble]

Andre wrote: "I have no problem with respect. But I don't think that this issue can actually be taken lightly anymore, not when it causes such strong reactions in the fans. Would Clare's books be just books they..."

This is true. Clare's fans get pretty rabid even if you make a respectful, well structured argument why you don't like the series. (I'm not tooting my own horn. I mock this series with no shame.) I have known people who like these books for the "popcorn factor." They are reasonable individuals who understand if you don't like something they love. That is how readers, fans, should treat each other. No one should go on personal attack against another person because they like a certain band or show or book or movie. But it is also a fan's duty to recognize the flaws in the work they love. That is how you can tell a true die hard fan. They're there through the thick and thin, but they know when their team (for lack of a better term) sucks.

Now, Clare is a bit different. Because of her behavior as a writer and a person, I don't believe she should get the praise she does. She has a history of cyber bullying, yet goes online saying "Bullying is bad" without apologizing or admitting to her former behavior. (Refer to this link that has been posted hundreds of times for evidence.) Then there is her response to a fan who didn't like her ending to TID. (No, I'm not digging around her tumblr for the link. Her page makes my skin crawl.) She basically accused the fan of misogyny because the fan didn't feel like Tessa sacrificed anything. Writers do not respond in such a way. It is unprofessional and rude. As a person, she does not act like a role model for young women.

If her writing sucked, yet she was professional and nice, then I'd just shrug. Her writing would still be lazy and unimaginative, but then I would understand why she had rabid fans if she was a generally awesome person like all the writers I follow on Twitter.

So, to clarify my argument, bad behavior should not be rewarded with fans that will defend you using the same bad behavior.

[Andre]

Exactly. And neither should bad and unimaginative writing. Especially in her supernatural world building I see a severe lack of originality. Even if you would simply borrow from mythology there is still alot to be found that apparently barely any author ever used. Or simply combine something often used with something rarely done in fantasy. Heck I could do it in my deviantart gallery. I used the myth about foxes transforming into humans via a human skull and combined it with extinct animals like a cave bear and a deinonychus and there it was.

And as for the article with her response to a critic. Don't worry, since you cannot link to the actual part on thumblr, I had posted the whole deal here on Goodreads a while ago: http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...
Here everyone can see it in all it's glory.

[A]

I've just found a link describing Clare's cyber bullying atrocities against those who criticise her work and her hypocritical nature against cyber-bullying.

http://alli6.tumblr.com/post/47193982...

[Andre]

Nice^^

[A]

LeeAnna wrote: "Andre wrote: "I have no problem with respect. But I don't think that this issue can actually be taken lightly anymore, not when it causes such strong reactions in the fans. Would Clare's books be j..."

Well said!

[Reader-ramble]

Thanks, and nice link.

Edit: I just finished reading through the links, and what the hell? How can she treat someone like that when she's a grown woman and a best selling author. It's absolutely horrific. Some of those people had genuine questions and gripes with her work, and she unleashes her fans on them like they're her personal attack dogs by feigning victimhood. It makes me furious, especially when so many writers are respectful of others. Mark Lawrence gets a lot of flack for his Broken Empire books because of the violence, but he's such an awesome person. (It's also one of the best character driven stories I've read in a while.) He is willing to share the links to his least favorable reviews without trying to justify himself.

Lucky for me, I've only had one troll comment on my reviews of her books, and she was harmless. I'm surprised I haven't gotten more attacks. It isn't like I keep them a secret.

[Andre]

Wow that one troll comment was exactly the same stuff pretty much every Clare defender here ever came up. Supposedly Clare is original and would it be plagiarizing no editor would have published it. This is the same as saying: would Emmerich rip-off from other films his films would have never come out. Which is ridiculous. Just because something is a rip-off doesn't mean you won't get a publisher.

[Mizuki]

Ayesha wrote: "I've just found a link describing Clare's cyber bullying atrocities against those who criticise her work and her hypocritical nature against cyber-bullying.

http://alli6.tumblr.com/post/471939821..."

Ohh......thanks for sharing the link, Ayesha.

And LeeAnna, who can blame you for feeling pissed off?