City of Bones
discussion
City of Copying Other Great Works (Mortal Instruments #Too Many)
Around 90% of the TMI fans I see on facebook are the type of readers who fall for the current hype; if they see a particular book in the bestseller list they fall for it even when it is obvious that it is badly written with cliched plot and Mary Sue heroine in fact they don't find anything wrong with the socially unacceptable behaviour of the characters.....I mean how can anyone call Jace a hot and a kind guy when he's such a bigheaded idiot? I even doubt that they know about Clare's plagiarism since surprisingly many of the fans never read Harry Potter and they consider Clare to be the greatest writer ever! *coughs*Once an admin from a Hunger Games fanpage on FB posted his pic along with his collection of TMI, I saw all the commentors praising the series and the post annoyed me because I didn't like that page to fangirl over TMI and I just added a comment "I don't like this series" next day I got comments like "hey, are you Satan?" "Clare is the best writer ever if you hate her why show it, are you going to get some medal?" "Don't hate my favourite books please"....ugh! The TMI fandom.
I had one tell me I had no soul once.
Ayesha wrote: "Around 90% of the TMI fans I see on facebook are the type of readers who fall for the current hype; if they see a particular book in the bestseller list they fall for it even when it is obvious that it is badly written with cliched plot and Mary Sue heroine in fact they don't find anything wrong with the socially unacceptable behaviour of the characters"It's not uncommon that people fall for the latest hyper and can't admit to themselves what's popular isn't always good and has good quality. I guess they might think: "Oh so many people like it, it must be good! If there're people complaining about it, those people must be in the wrong, or they must be haters!"
I have a lot of soul. That's why I hate these soulless books.
Synesthesia wrote: "I have a lot of soul. That's why I hate these soulless books."Great remark, Synesthesia.
Mizuki wrote: "It's not uncommon that people fall for the latest hyper and can't admit to themselves what's popular isn't always good and has good quality. I guess they might think: "Oh so many people like it, it must be good! If there're people complaining about it, those people must be in the wrong, or they must be haters!""That brings back memories. So many memories about so many things.
Mizuki wrote: "It's not uncommon that people fall for the latest hyper and can't admit to themselves what's popular isn't always good and has good quality. I guess they might think: "Oh so many people like it, it must be good! If there're people complaining about it, those people must be in the wrong, or they must be haters!"I agree.
I'm with you here! I can't, and will never understand why a lot of people loved this series.
◄KɪʀsᴛɪN► wrote: "I'm with you here! I can't, and will never understand why a lot of people loved this series."You're welcomed here! There is a large population of people who hate Clare's works here on Goodreads.
Ayesha! Haha. I wasn't able to read the previous comments because there are so many... but I could see that. And I'm glad to know. Hahaha :D Sooooo. You ever bothered watching the movie?
Ok, this was probably not directed at me, but I am curious how bad this movie. Mark I will make sure not to pay any money for this, ever!Since lets face it that is the problem with many books, movies and shows. People want something better but they pay for the crap anyway.
There's a thread somewhere in Goodreads that said the movie ruined the book. I commented, saying the book was already ruined even before the movie came out. XD
@Andre: Oh, I'm pretty sure most of the fans would love it anyway... just like how they easily loved the books. I mean, if they couldn't tell what's a good book and what's a bad one, how could they ever tell the difference with the movies?
◄KɪʀsᴛɪN► wrote: "Ayesha! Haha. I wasn't able to read the previous comments because there are so many... but I could see that. And I'm glad to know. Hahaha :D Sooooo. You ever bothered watching the movie?"No, I don't want to watch it. What about you? I have two friends who are very excited for this one :p I'm going to show them the negative reviews written by Palice, Andre, Mizuki, LeeAnna and you and the link which describes Clare's plagiarism and cyber bullying issues...I can't wait to see them react!
Will you give me the link of their reviews? I wanna read more that talk actual sense and not like one of those "OMG This is such a good book Jace is so hot" thingy. XDI'm actually going to watch it. Shame, really >_> But I just wanna see how bad it turns out. HAHA. Also, I'm a fan of Lily Collins and Robert Sheehan. That's all.
There's no way I'm gonna waste money, though. I'll just wait for the torrent sites to release copies then download it. XD
◄KɪʀsᴛɪN► wrote: "There's a thread somewhere in Goodreads that said the movie ruined the book. I commented, saying the book was already ruined even before the movie came out. XD"Hm, I am curious.
Do you mean this thread?
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...
Also there is a group threat (so only members can coment) where they are all: Godfrey Gao is so great for Magnus. Well on there it was said that his father is Shanghainese and his mother Peranakan, an ethnic group from Malaysia who are descendents of Chinese and apparently with obvious Chinese traits. So Godfrey Gao is very likely a person of full-blood Chinese ancestry. Yeah his casting was really sooooo progressive. So the film and possibly the book copied another thing: The tendency of Asian = Chinese. Yeah soooo great.
◄KɪʀsᴛɪN► wrote: "Will you give me the link of their reviews? I wanna read more that talk actual sense and not like one of those "OMG This is such a good book Jace is so hot" thingy. XDI'm actually going to watch ..."
Here are the links-
LeeAnna's review
Andre's review
Mizuki's review
Danielle's review
Palice's review
Link describing Clare's plagiarism and cyberbullying issues
Thanks Ayesha! ^o^Andre, I believe this is the thread: www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1464460-...
And, yeah... I hope they someday realize that Chinese is not the only race in Asia. Really. TMI is full of stereotypes.
I'm reading LeeAnna's review now. I'm laughing at the guy chasing a shadow with knife like a cat chasing a laser pointer! Hahaha.
◄KɪʀsᴛɪN► wrote: "Thanks Ayesha! ^o^Andre, I believe this is the thread: www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1464460-...
And, yeah... I hope they someday realize that Chinese is not the only race in Asi..."
I admit I didn't start noticing until she had Magnus dressed in lederhosen during his visit in Berlin. Afterwards I started to research some more. And it is not difficult to find examples of people with mixed Dutch Indonesian ancestry:
http://www.crunchyroll.com/forumtopic...
http://eurasian-sensation.blogspot.de...
Clare was even applauded for making sure that Magnus was played by an "Asian or Half-Asian": http://www.racebending.com/v4/feature...
She even adressed it herself: http://cassandraclare.tumblr.com/post...
Now apart from the fact that she calls him Asian first and Half-Asian later (Did she think she would not be able to find one or does she generally think that a mixed person automatically belongs to the non-white parentage?) having Magnus played by a person fitting what American mainstream labels white might have been the better choice based on the above links.
Also the pictures above make a good point that these people and Clare did not really try to find someone of suitable background. I don't believe for a single moment that they couldn't at least have found an actor who is at the very least of mixed European/East Asian ancestry. At least that one would be closer to what Gao represents.
PS. As for her being surprised that people thought Magnus was white. Well when you say his background only once over the course of three books written between 2007 and 2009 then its your own damn fault, especially since it had no relevance to the plot whatsoever. After City of Glass the next hint we get is in Clockwork Angel and apparently there his skin is suddenly brown instead of golden, which is weird considered the described weather conditions and I think afterwards the next example we get is in City of Lost Souls when Camille states his background and Magnuss allegedly speaks "Indonesian" (not that we would know from the text itself). And the most extensive description of his parental background we get in some random snippet called Magnus' Vow which no normal person would even bother to search for. And now considered how often Clare described Raphael and especially Jace, she has no one but herself to blame for this.
@Ayesha+Andre: By the end of the day, you have to decide whether a book is good or bad by yourself, not by public opinion.
◄KɪʀsᴛɪN► wrote: "And, yeah... I hope they someday realize that Chinese is not the only race in Asia..."Judging from how frequently people mistake Chinese, Korean and Japanese as the same race, I don't have much hope on that one.
The problem with the race concept is that its neither old nor reliable. The lowest number of race per concept I know of is 2 and the highest somewhere around 60 or maybe more. But there are no reliable and objective criteria for any of them. But even in case of nationality most people don't get it right in the case of East Asian. Of course Clare is no better here in my eyes. I saw it once and I say it again, she does the same as many other authors by assigning mixed-bloods to the non-white parentage.
And is it just me or does Jem's description of hair and eyes fit that silverhaired gay from Tekken Bloodvengeance?
Andre wrote: "But even in case of nationality most people don't get it right in the case of East Asian. "Huhh...but mustn't professional authors make sure they had gotten the details right before hanging the book over to publish? And where's the editor?
On holiday? Scared away? Non-existent? I have no idea to be honest.
Andre wrote: "On holiday? Scared away? Non-existent? I have no idea to be honest."
Non-existent seems to be a good choice.
Wow. This thread blew up.On the Magnus' ancestry, it's obvious the writer (I'm trying to behave) didn't do her research. Saying he's supposed to be "asian or half-asian" is way off the mark since Indonesians are less "asian" and more "pacific islander". (I'm using the stupid US race categorizing thing since the writer is American, so she would be familiar with it.) They would look less like those of Eastern Asian decent and more like those of Philippine ancestry. There is a massive difference. I live in the Nor Cal area, and there is a huge population of people of varying Eastern ancestries, mixed or otherwise, especially on and around a military base.
That said, I looked at the pictures of those who are Indonesian-Dutch ancestry, and all I can say is:
Yeah. Some of them take more after their caucasian genes and some after their Indonesian genes. You know, whatever genes won the lottery. That is how genetics works. Magnus could look almost entirely white without defying the laws of science, but I don't think the writer paid attention in school. That said, he wouldn't look asian. Sorry. And this is coming from a girl who is as lily white as it comes (my family is half Irish on both sides) but has two half-Filipino older siblings (paternal) and two half-Korean cousins (maternal).
So, anyone who is planning on writing, do your research on nationalities and ethnicities.
Seems like it, or they editors would have called them out on that copying problem.
LeeAnna wrote: "They would look less like those of Eastern Asian decent and more like those of Philippine ancestry. There is a massive difference."You're damn right, LeeAnna. I thought people know Eastern Asian people (Chinese, Taiwanese, Japanese, etc) don't look like Indonesians or mixed people between white people and Indonesians before I heard they had cast Gao, but obviously I'm wrong.
Mizuki wrote: "You're damn right, LeeAnna. I thought people know Eastern Asian people (Chinese, Taiwanese, Japanese, etc) don't look like Indonesians or mixed people between white people and Indonesians before I heard they had cast Gao, but obviously I'm wrong."It's frustrating that the writer acts like she's "progressive" by not white washing all her characters, and then she goes and lumps ethnicities together like that. But I think I pointed out in my reviews how all the named (important) Shadow-hunters are white, and all the multi-ethnic people are Down-worlders. Even Jem from TID has the whole demon venom addiction. (Still pissed about that. And why couldn't she just call Jem by his real name? James, Jimmy, or Jian would have been better than Jem since it is the Victorian Era.)
When I read the 1st book in The Mortal InstrumentsI'll admit I didn't like it. But I really Loved Cassandra's style so I read The Infernal Devices which I really loved. Afterwards I read City Of Ashes (#2 TMI) And I loved it, the first book was probably the worst for me but because there were so mant other books I knew the story would change. I really enjoyed the rest of the series and I am a HUGE fan of Cassandra. I'd like to see other people come up with such good story lines as she does and I cannot even begin to compare her writing with any other.
I could. The writer of Daughter of Smoke and Bone is like fifty times better and more enjoyable than Clare and makes more complex characters too I think.
I would not even know where to start with listing all the books I know who had better storylines than Cassandra Clare and where you did not see 90 % of it coming.As for her "nonwhitewashing" of her characters:
That is really just cosmetic in my eyes since all of her "non-whites" who are more then extra have European names. By which Cassandra Clare just continued the practice of erasing non-European names and replacing them with Anglo-names. Since most of her names are clearly based on that.
Books better than Clare's books:For demon slaying and rune systems, The Warded Man and its sequels.
For Nephilim and demon slaying, Sandman Slim and its sequels.
For not-totally-cliche kick ass chick fighting monsters in New York, Discount Armageddon and Midnight Blue-Light Special.
For an Urban Fantasy-Steampunk mash up with romance, Soulless and its sequels.
For a different Urban Fantasy that actually uses the urban element well, The Blue Blazes.
For a good use of the everything-but-the-kitchen-sink method and tattoos, Hearne's The Iron Druid Chronicles, starting with Hounded.
Anything by Neil Gaiman.
And then you should check out the comic book series Fables (Fables, Vol. 1: Legends in Exile) where the writer got the term "mundies."
I think that's good for now.
Neil Gaiman is AWESOME.
Let's see I think I can name a few books that would help here.On how to have characters with some obvious Mary Sue and Gary Stu characteristics but who are used right and likeable try the War of the Ancients trilogy.
For a hero with a troubled past that is shown and that you feel try the Dark Elf Trilogy as well as Legacy of the Drow.
For story about someone becoming the most important figure as well as one of moral ambiguity try Lord of the Clans and Rise of the Horde.
On short stories showing complex relationships and dealing with being mixed-race try Love in a Fallen City.
For a decent werewolf story there would be Curse of the Worgen or The Wolf Gift.
And how to write gritty, savage and alien vampires try the stories in Gangrel: Savage and Macabre and Nosferatu: The Beast That Haunts the Blood.
A generally recommendable book is Watership Down.
And if you want male on male books that while bordering on the cliché and not being very realistic are nonetheless entertaining and manage to redeem themselves via their characters in my opinion, try these:
Fire Season
Sunstroked
George's Turn
Joshua's Law
Riley's Regret
Without Reservations
Andre said: "For a hero with a troubled past that is shown and that you feel try the Dark Elf Trilogy as well as Legacy of the Drow."(Squeals in excitement.) Those books got me into fantasy. My copy of Homeland is signed. I'm a bit behind on his current books though.
Oh, I forgot. I must pimp these whenever I can. For a character you should hate with a burning passion, but is actually really well done, Prince of Thorns, King of Thorns, and the ending Emperor of Thorns. There is something beautiful about them, and not in the Clare way. In the my-soul-has-been-touched way. The fact that you feel this way afterwards, once you slog through the questionable actions of the character, is a bit disturbing.
Synesthesia said: "Neil Gaiman is AWESOME."
Duh. He's Neil Gaiman. He was molded from the essence of awesome. American Gods, enough said.
Synesthesia wrote: "I could. The writer of Daughter of Smoke and Bone is like fifty times better and more enjoyable than Clare and makes more complex characters too I think."How true, how true. And her book before Daughter of Smoke and Bones doesn't have any annoying teenager love melodrama or love triangle as well. The two leading characters *stay friends* at the first book, how refreshing.
Meghan wrote: "When I read the 1st book in The Mortal InstrumentsI'll admit I didn't like it. But I really Loved Cassandra's style so I read The Infernal Devices which I really loved. Afterwards I read City Of As..."Uh, surely you haven't read a lot of really good books for you to say that. CC's writing is nothing compared to some works out there that need more attention than her Shadowhunter series. The problem with some readers is that they stick to the mainstream and the best-seller ones because they believe that they are the best YA has to offer. Which is, sadly, mostly wrong. There are so many YAs nowadays that don't live up to the hype. Those that do are not given much attention because they're different.
CC's CoB, since it's the only book I've ever read in her series, is full of stereotypes, from plot to characters. That's what I see, not the 'good storylines' you're saying.
Synthezia & Mizuki:
Oh, I love Daughter of Smoke and Bone! It's very well-written... magically written. Karou, just like Clary, is an artist as well; they both draw. But I guess Laini Taylor was able to express it more than CC. She managed to convince me that Karou really was exceptional in that field ^o^
And the writing, as I said, is just magical. It took me a week to finish the entire book because I just had to savor the words and beautiful metaphors and such.
Her books deserve more than what it's currently receiving at the moment.
Andre: here's the City of Bones review I had mentioned.I included the White House Down review as well because even WHD has received higher rate than CoB.
South China Morning Post, Young Post pg.12 (Date: 25/08/2013)
Link to the newspaper: http://www.scmp.com/frontpage/hk?utm_...
Laini Taylor writing is beautiful, vivid, and imaginative. Now it's her that deserves the hype more than Clare.
I agree. Let's elevate her.
Synesthesia wrote: "I agree. Let's elevate her."
Totally.
Totally.
Let us! ^o^Anyway, sorry to butt in about the White House Down talk... but has any of you seen Olympus Has Fallen? Off-topic, just curious ;)
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The FountainPenDiva, Old school geek chick and lover of teddy bears
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So, Ms. Clare is yet another example of ABB--Authors Behaving Badly?And Neil Gaiman rocks! So does Tamora Pierce!
Yes, she totally is an ABB. XD
I was just reading a critic's review for the COB film. Here's an excerpt:So, once again the teen / YA / supernatural genre gets another entrant, and once again, all the teen cliches and tropes, poor dialogue, brooding, love triangle and dodgy acting are present.
I'm not 100% sure that it's the fault of the film that's launching The Mortal Instruments series, particularly if they are following the source material, but the generally cliched tone will mean that it won't appeal to all audiences. At times, it feels like a generic piece, with a lot of familiar elements in place from thousands of films you've seen before. References to Ghostbusters , Buffy the Vampire Slayer, an homage to the Exorcist, a Star Wars feel, a kiss in manufactured rain in a greenhouse between Clary and Jace (hello, Nicholas Sparks ) and other moments et al - there are plenty of nods to others of its ilk and the end result is that The Mortal Instruments: City of Bones feels like a patchwork quilt of supernatural fantasy elements of the genre and doesn't really have a full identity of its own to stand on its own two feet.
...
All in all, The Mortal Instruments: City of Bones movie may well appeal to those teen audiences looking for a new YA fix now that Twilight has departed - but for the rest of the audience, there will be a general rolling of the eyes and a feeling that everything here's been done before. And in some cases, in a better film.
That is just the first of the many reviews from critics.
I'm waiting to see the writer's reaction to these reviews. She's had no problem responding to other detractors.And is there a general Writer's Behaving Badly website? I've always wondered that. I think I'm going to look now. (There's a group on here.)
For those interested, I've added links at the bottom of my CoB review to my other Clare reviews if you want to read the rest.
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They're already working on the second film.