City of Bones
discussion
City of Copying Other Great Works (Mortal Instruments #Too Many)
Oh I think that Clare added "non-whites", although her "main non-whites" are all half-whites, respectively like Maia and Jem arguably looking like full whites, just for colour. It is simply that she gets credit for that and supposedly people are so happy, which might be ok if she had other main characters that are full-blood non-whites and also if it wouldn't all be so unrealistic. Jem was born in China after the Second Opium war and that makes her uncredible, because the Chinese suffered defeat by the British and so a half-blood like him would not face problems? He might actually experience less problems in England than China. The same with Magnus, he had no problem in 1791 Paris... what?!?! Marie Antoinette had simply due to her Austrian birth but Magnus just runs around without any glamour?Well there was this "in-book" explanation in Twilight, although Meyer's "scientific" explanation makes no sense, and let's say this: Basketballers and strippers use pants that have buttons at the side, so the werewolves could have used them instead of shredding their clothes all the time.
But still, why did she chose the "indians" to be half-naked but the white people not? And it is a fact Native Americans have and are more likely to be portrayed without shirts then with.
Believe me I read Meyer's Twilight guide out of curiosity... She ruined her characters and world even more and sadly I think Clare already does the same.
Indonesian is only Magnus' dominant race because Clare apparently sees him as an "Asian" first. But considered his background his mother was probably from the mixed-blood class in the city of Batavia (which makes the phrase "Batavian and Dutch blood" a bit weird) so Magnus probably was a rich kid. Also he wasn't born with the cat eyes, the missing navel was never mentioned again, they developed later. So how "Indonesian", especially in comparison with modern people is he actually? And what is his "native tongue"? Is it "Indonesian"? Portugese? Dutch? Malay? If yes what Malay? Seriously, I can find that information, so why can't she?
I didn't care about Jem during my reading. For me, his character was not appealing. He was forever ill, pale and skinny, but was attractive because of his silver hair? Wasn't he supposed to be more like a teenage old man rather than a good looking young man? And he was not friend with anyone but Will but no one hated him or being suspicious of him even when they knew zero of him. Did they accept Jem of his being kind without ever had to socialise with him?That's it. Jem was not that fascinating for me. I tried to ignore his bland character after that many questions swirling my mind and concentrated on reading Will.
Magnus and his Indonesian race story is pretty messed up. Clare should have made him belonged to a race which people and history are familiar enough for her to start with, or knowledge she knows well.
Godfrey Gao was said to be her Magnus .Although her explanation of the cast chosen was likely to support the movie rather than speak out the truth, Cassie still needed to stop for a while and realised that Godfrey is Chinese (mix). And anyone Indonesian during colonial era could not be Chinese and Dutch. They surely did not call themselves as Indonesian. And they would not have brown skin, no matter how long they stay under the sun (unless Magnus generated some skin cancer).
Bland character hm? Oh this will be difficult to stand when reading about Jem in CP. But then again, I guess that is what you get when you split Jace in half and make Jem and Will out of him. And yeah, Jem's look reflect rather sickness then anything else.
Actually I was referring to his life in China, considered the time and also his parentage and Chinese society at the time, I think it is highly unlikely that someone like Jem would not face discrimination due to his British father. Not to mention that Tessa despite being from New York had no prejudices against Chinese people. This is I think vwery unlikely considered the time, the Anti-Chinese movement was very strong in the USA at the time and only 4 years after CA the Chinese-Exclusion Act was signed.
Of course there is again Jem's hair and eyes. The eyes might be confused for gray but his hair would make him stand out everywhere. It is simply that his described facial features make him more inline with British people than Chinese.
Now Magnus... I never liked what she did there. I mean what is his birth name? And why does he tell himself Magnus Bane? I can't remember. Did CP and CP2 state it?
The casting of Gao as Magnus is also problematic because Clare defended it with Magnus being Asian, as an afterthought she stated that he was biracial, and casting a white actor would erase his Asian background, interestingly casting a full Asian Actor does not seem to erase his white background in her eyes.
Gao is partially Indonesian of descent as far as I know, but technically he is Taiwanese, so yeah Chinese, somewhat.
Speaking of that time, I did not find much information on that Colonial era. What do you know of that time?
By the way I also doubted whether an Indonesian/Dutch mix would actually look like Gao, but I have never been to Indonesia so I cannot tell for sure.
Andre wrote: "The casting of Gao as Magnus is also problematic because Clare defended it with Magnus being Asian, as an afterthought she stated that he was biracial, and casting a white actor would erase his Asian background,"I have nothing to add about Jem's parentage and who unrealistic it is for him to face no discrimination back in China and why he didn't standout in British.
But it's quite disrespect to pass an Chinese born actor off as an character with Indonesian parentage. But Hollywood always does this kind of shit.=__=
You know at first I thought that maybe they just couldn't have found one. But then I found out that there is even a term for people of Indonesian mixed with European ancestry which developed out of the Dutch mixes and based on where many live today they surely would have been able to speak English. And there would have been no one to play the role of Magnus?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo_people
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indos_in...
There're no doubt many Chinese or half-Chinese half Indo people living in Indonesia, but still....Chinese and Indo don't look the same.>_<
rayful wrote: "Megan wrote: "The sexism and stereotypes are there, but it could have been worse. A LOT WORSE. Stop hating. I think the book was great, and those connections to HP and SW were vague. I mean, really..."i dont think your discussing it your more like just ranting thats its bad and stolen and about how much you hate it when it was a very well written serise
Andre wrote: "Bland character hm? Oh this will be difficult to stand when reading about Jem in CP. But then again, I guess that is what you get when you split Jace in half and make Jem and Will out of him. And ..."
Jem' life story in China didn't really bother me. Maybe because I was not that interested in Jem when reading CA. Or maybe because so many fans have been waiting for Cassie to write a novella for Jem, I would rather wait for her to give more details about Jem. I wonder if I will be interested in reading that seeing how BC novellas so far has ruined Magnus.
The Colonial era was when the Dutch governed Indonesia. I need to check out more of the span taken precisely before giving you detailed info. The Dutch themselves spent about 350 years ruling our country.
Most of the mix were Dutch and native Indonesia. Most of them remained in Java and Sumatra islands but not limited to that. They were spreaded all over Indonesia. Batavia was located in Java.
The mix (blasteran) were the offspring of the landlord or other Dutch officials with their mistresses (local people with brown to light brown skin colour). The mix looked more like their westerners parents with not as pale skins. They might not have blue eyes or light blonde hair, but they usually inherited the pale skin and the features. Even if they had brownish skin colour, their features were more of a westerners than an Indonesian. To combine a Chinese born with Dutch and gave away a brown skin colour offspring was a bad idea. To call Batavia a race was even worse.
Paperpanda wrote: "I'm freaking tired of seeing these hate discussions.Do i even need to say this again? I LOVE THIS BOOK."
OMG I ALSO LOVED THIS SEISE SO MUCH<3<3<3:):):) and i also cant stand all the hate on the books
Amanda (Gale's Chosen One) wrote: "I'll admit i did see some similarities with Harry Potter, but i still love the series.If you want to see a complete Harry Potter rip off and bad stereotypes read The House Of Night series."
uhg. i read the house of night and totally agree i could not stand how it was such a rip on HP. there's only one series i didn't like more was twilight(no hate please just a personal opinion)
Mizuki wrote: "There're no doubt many Chinese or half-Chinese half Indo people living in Indonesia, but still....Chinese and Indo don't look the same.>_<"Were you referring to Indonesia now? I think you know very well that Chinese people are everywhere. In Indonesia, USA and worldwide. Sorry to say... but when you said that Chinese and Indo don't look the same, I knew that you do not know Indonesian well enough.
Nias people look like Chinese people. I am even mistaken as Chinese or Chinese mix from time to time. My sister has always been wrongly considered as Chinese for she has Chinese light skin and eyes, while none of our ascendants were Chinese.
Indonesia has so many tribes. Some of us look like Chinese, Indian, African, Arabian & Western born. I hope this info will be useful for you.
Mizuki wrote: "You misunderstood me, Mariana. I'm only pointing out how lamp it's for people to use the book's popularity to proof that TMI must be a good series."I'm seeing what you're getting at now. But I really think it's all based on personal opinion whether the series is good or bad.
all books are similar in one way or another but that dosent make them bad or stolen(in most cases)but what the authors do is find a series that they think is could but it creates a new world/story in their head so they change it making it better and so that its now their world what they think it should be like, so sometime books have some similarities. like Divergent was alot like the hunger games in some ways but i (personaly) didn't really like the hunger games but i LOVE Divergent. and if people always tried to think of new ideas that didnt relate to others we would never get anywhere and be stuck with the same like 10 books.
Andre wrote: "And we have another one ladies and gentlemen. Do you really think repeating the same stuff again like so many others did will make it any more valid? Nobody here argues that many stories share simi..."If Clare is white and wants to write about white people, so? She can relate to it. I'm not trying to be racist here but I seriously doubt that people in Asia want to write about Americans. If Clare was racist characters such as Magnus, Mia and Jem wouldn't exist. So to say that she is racist is ridiculous.
You must like talking to me.
Mariana wrote: "Andre wrote: "And we have another one ladies and gentlemen. Do you really think repeating the same stuff again like so many others did will make it any more valid? Nobody here argues that many stor..."A bit on Magnus. Cassie might not write Magnus character as part of being a racist. I never thought that way either. She lacked of necessary knowledge about Indonesia but still went on making Magnus as Indonesian born. Cassie didn't bother to do search nor research upon such an important character.
Nurley, thanks for the comment, you took some of the work off my shoulders. And thank you for the other info.;)As for Mariana:
You know I am really holding back now, your ignorance on the matter is incredible. Which is by the way the reason I am responding to you. I don't like "talking" to you at all. I simply think the contents of your comments can't remain unopposed.
Just because people like Magnus, Maia and Jem are there doesn't make a person non-racist. All these Westerns had, if at all, actual Natives as half-naked tomahowk swinging savages, does that make it non-racist? Plenty of films had the desexualized Asian chimp, does that make it non-racist? Others had African Americans as lazy or irredemable criminals, does that make these films non-racist?
Racist doesn't mean that you don't have non-white people in fiction. It depends on how such people are presented. As Nurlely pointed out in both of her comments, Clare has no idea on how to write someone of Magnus' supposed background. She didn't even seem to care about that. Magnus is not an actual person of mixed Dutch-Indonesian ancestry, he is rather like an image Clare wanted to have. He reminds me of the first room described in Aloeswood incense in Love in a Fallen City:
The furniture and the arrangement were basically Western, touched up with some unexceptionable Chinese bric-a-brac... These Oriental touches had been out there, it was clear, for the benefit of foreigners. The English come from so far to see China - one has to give them something of China to see. But this was China as Westerners imagine it: exquisite, illogical, very entertaining.
This sounds very much like Magnus to me. Especially the one from the Chronicles, so I definitely agree with Nurley on these books. Whatever good there was about Magnus these books totally ruined it.
As for people in "Asia" wanting to write about Americans: Why don't you for once withold your judgments about people you have no idea about? Maybe people in "Asia" want to write about Americans, maybe they don't.
Or better, what "Asia"? India? Mongolia? Japan? Myanmar? Vietnam? Saudi-Arabia?
Asia is a pretty big continent with lots of very different ethnicities you know. Try to be a bit more specific for a change.
Andre wrote: "Nurley, thanks for the comment, you took some of the work off my shoulders. And thank you for the other info.;)As for Mariana:
You know I am really holding back now, your ignorance on the matter ..."
Actually no, what you're doing is being annoying. You seem to think that just because someone doesn't agree with you, that they're automatically wrong. And believe me Andre, I'm holding back too. You think you're so great because you get your five minutes of fame on a topic where some people actually agree with you for once, and now your ego is boosted to the max. You try to act all intellegent and grammatically correct with your extremely long replies, and I think it's funny because I don't even read the whole thing. Try getting to the point.
Mizuki doesn't agree with me, and that's okay because she's civilized and to the point about what she has to say. She also is aware of the fact that not everyone not everyone agrees with her, but she doesn't try to sway them into agreeing with her, like you're doing.
Clare can write whatever she wants to write, and she's not being racist while doing it. Maybe some Asians (and when I say Asians, you know I mean all of Asia in general, as it is a continent with many countries) want to write about Americans but you know that the majority doesn't. So don't go putting words in my mouth just because your mad that I think Jem is on the cover of Clockwork Prince, and bring all that hostility here where it's unwelcome. You're not putting my in place, like you think you're doing. If you want to get in a fight with someone try finding someone new. The fact that you continue to talk to me is creepy.
That I continue this is creepy? I did not accuse you of following me. You actually thought I had followed you to this discussion thread when in fact a friend of mine was on here first.I am not the one who is so rude that he doesn't even read the full response. You just admitted that this is what you did.
I am not the one insulting people right away and then act like a victim. That is what you do. I knew my latest comment would probably piss you off once again because so far that was everything you ever did in response to me. I was polite and civilized enough to state my arguments, all you did was mocking me and acting like I am supposed to answer your questions. And unlike you I am not gonna bring up the other thread now because that is not the topic of this one.
In case you haven't notice we were having a civilized discussion here before you came along.
Plenty of people here disagreed with me and as long as they stayed civilized so did I. Things here only took a turn for worse once you showed up.
Take your own advice and leave. What do you even want here?
No, I was on here before you, thank you very much. I was civilized before you saw I was on here and tried replying to my comments. And you replied to my comment first, so of course I responded. Out of all the comments on this thread you chose to respond to mine. If you weren't going to bring up the other thread then you shouldn't have mentioned Jem. This is City of Bones here, not TID.Must I say again that I do not want to talk to you? This conversation is over.
Then leave. Who do you think you are? That I am only here to respond to you? There are plenty of other people here who are part of this.Chloe:) wrote: "all books are similar in one way or another but that dosent make them bad or stolen(in most cases)but what the authors do is find a series that they think is could but it creates a new world/story ..."
That is not the problem. The problem is that there are so many elements all jumbled together that make this book very suspicious. I said this here and so did lots of other people.
It is not like with Battle Royal and Hunger Games. These two have enough differences that they very well could have arisen independently.
Or take another example: As bad as Twilight was, Meyer definitely didn't copy from others. While her work has similarities with others the fact is that the roots of it are most likely in her mormon background (e.g. the basic look of the vampires) since her book fits that background much more.
With Clare however that doesn't seem to be the case. Her book have massive similarities to the popular titles of the last 10 years and that makes people naturally suspicious.
I find Twilight more entertaining than terrible because at least she put her own twist on things instead of just ripping off other ideas without adding a unique spin.
Exactly. If even you say its shit, at the very least it is her own shit for the most part.
Andre wrote: "Then leave. Who do you think you are? That I am only here to respond to you? There are plenty of other people here who are part of this.Chloe:) wrote: "all books are similar in one way or another..."
Good, then stop replying to me. Bye.
Andre wrote: "Exactly. If even you say its shit, at the very least it is her own shit for the most part."I don't think I could have put it any better.
And as for the argument about Clare being a "poor researcher" regarding customs and treatment of people in other time periods and countries, I will point to just the first TMI books. Look at how the Shadow-hunters treat the Down-worlders, even when the DW are assisting them in their war against Valentine/oldemort/ader. They treat them as sub-beings and are supposed to be the heroes. Even Clary refers to Simon as "it" at one point after he's turned into a vampire. How are the readers supposed to sympathize with that? Clare can't even write true acceptance of her fictional creatures. The Shadow-hunters only jump at the chance to fight beside the Down-worlders because the rune the angels show Clary allows them them adopt a power from their fighting companion.
Oh, and I did grammatically correct those names. I cannot stand to write them as Clare does. It makes me cringe.
Even before becoming a vampire Clary referred to Simon as a mundane. And what I also found way too convenient to be believable in any way was that no matter how the Shadow-hunters acted, they always found Downworlders willing to help them. Which makes no sense, especially since I never understood what Downworlders have to gain from that deus ex machina mark of Clary. I mean suppossedly it was the Hunters fighting skills, but what use is that if the Down-Worlders can't use the seraph blades or already can fight?And speaking of that Down-worlders fight for Shadowhunters. That was something obvious with Luke's pack. Just because the new boss says so the werewolves are willing to die, also thiss "become the Alpha by killing the Alpha" is not only totally overused but especially here nothing more than a cheap gimmick to get the necessary cannonfodder quickly.
Even in the first book the Nephilim we see act like assholes without any reason for it. And it didn't take long to guess what they would be saying because they all say the same, also it was pretty clear very fast that Mrs. Clare would "resolve" awkward situations by letting something suddenly happen out of nowhere.
Exactly. If I were a Down-worlder, I would have told the Nephilim they could shove their steles up their ass and suffer. They're all bullies, just like Valentine. I even said in my reviews that the system that was already in place by The Clave is little better than what Valentine plans to do. If they could kill off the Down-worlders in one fell swoop, I bet they would.What I didn't point out was that the ending where the angel tells Valentine that he has no room to judge before killing him pretty much negates the entire struggle the characters have gone through for three books. I just now realized that, and feel a bit ashamed I didn't earlier. I blame it on all the other flaws in her work that buried it.
Smiles wrote: "In one of your posts you left a LINK to a website??? You actually did research on this. Are you kidding me? Sure, TMI does have hints of other books in it, but other books have parts of TMI in them..."Couldn't have said it better myself :)
Andre wrote: "That was something obvious with Luke's pack. Just because the new boss says so the werewolves are willing to die, also thiss "become the Alpha by killing the Alpha""I read the same thing from Sookie Stackhouse series. One were will be the Alpha if he (never read a she becomes an Alpha) kills an Alpha. And no matter how crazy the Alpha is, the followers are to obey him. If one refuses to, s/he must leave the clan.
Herm. In my book, folks will be allowed to rebel against a crazy alpha. None of that raping and tormenting nonsense.
Sure they can. Isn't that what's the killing is about? The next alpha can be a newcomer or a member of the gang (if the outcast or a rebel is brave enough to challenge the alpha) What book? Raping? a were rapes another were? It didn't happen in SS series.
I personally think it's way too similar to the Harry Potter books. Muggles-mundanes, voldemort-valentine, the idea of death eaters and how valentine basically wants to do the same thing (pure bloods), and so many other things
Even if some people hate a book we don't have to insult the books or the author. Not all the people like the same things and we have to respect that. ;)
Nobody said that we don't, but there is still the fact that the book has way too much in common with the recent popular books to be simply dismissed as coincidence.It is not just Valentine and the like. It is much more. You could literally take your pick. The vampires for instance, the way of making a vampire is basically a combination of Anne Rice and Buffy. The way their looks are described is eerily reminiscent of Twilight and Anne Rice, with their pale poreless skin (mostly they are described as pale) that in Camille's case was even described as porcelain, then that vampirism apparently heightens your beauty. There are of course their powers (transformation, mind control, blood slaves, strength and spead, healing, projection), absolutely not new but also not very cleverly used. In CoB alone I asked myself: why don't the vampires pursue Clary and Jace and why don't they flee from the werewolves? Seriously, even a few sentences before they were described as flying, but those sentences later they just stand on the roof surrounded by werewolves.
As for the Alpha kills Alpha rule. That is also a very common werewolf trope and as far as I can tell one that is rarely used right. I mean realistically speaking Luke would have one challenge after the other coming at him. Not to mention that fighting power has nothing to do with leadership qualities.
And the raping... Depends how you define rape I would say, but there is the element of forced sexual intercourse among the werewolves in the SS series.
Andre wrote: "Depends how you define rape I would say, but there is the element of forced sexual intercourse among the werewolves in the SS series. "SS series offer many sexual intercourse scenes. It seems that those supernatural creatures are always in high for mating. The were were said to have some brutal intercourse it seems that they were forced into having one. I could not remember precisely those scenes. Were they actually raped or that is how they perform their 'bed time' hours?
My bad. I read SS for more Eric not Alcide and the were gang. Ceased my reading after it reached book 9.
Don't worry, whenever there is vampires and werewolves in a book, the vampires get the spotlight and the werewolves are just plain stupid, so there is not much to be thrilled or remember about. The same in TMI.The werewolves are definitely forced to have sex in SS, if I remember correctly they are not very fertile and biting someone is not much of an option since the bitten usually don't last long.
I read some guidelines for vamps and weres. Smarter vamps, and less intelligent weres. I could not even recall ever favored a were (Hugh Jackman is an exception)Seriously could not bring out any memory of weres in SS series but their brutal mating habits... :( My bad.
No problem.The problem with weres in general is that even when they are other sorts wereanimals basically every author seems to base them on the stupid werewolf. As a matter of fact often I just referred to them as werewolves in disguise since there is next to nothing new about them. For some reason most writers write them plain dumb. No idea why.
I was thinking of Laurell K. Hamilton's wereanimals. I wonder if mine are going to be OK. Hmm. *continues to work on this story*
Well I liked the series, purely because all of these things were mixed together and made into something new. I dislike how she has other series within the same world and more coming out too, it's pathetic and she's just hanging on to the one successful thing she's ever done. She's going to murder her own shadowhunting world. I like the concept and whatever, I dislike her writing, I dislike well her tbh.
Synesthesia wrote: "I was thinking of Laurell K. Hamilton's wereanimals. I wonder if mine are going to be OK. Hmm. *continues to work on this story*"
Well you don't have to adher to the western concept. Try some others.
@Anthea
You are not the only one who thinks that Clare will ruin her own world. She really should have stopped TMI at CoG.
They are mostly Russian-Americans. We always get the fierce version of werewolves but real wolves are more complicated than that. I do want a story with a Kitsune. I read When Fox Was a Thousand and it was awesome.
Andre wrote: "Synesthesia wrote: "I was thinking of Laurell K. Hamilton's wereanimals. I wonder if mine are going to be OK. Hmm. *continues to work on this story*"
Well you don't have to adher to the western ..."
I read the original trilogy, and then a few months back I read City of Fallen Angels. And I. Hated. It. She is just ruining it all. To be fair, I hardly enjoyed the first 3, but the latest ones are so much worse. She really should have just left it all alone. It was predictable and cliche. Clare needs to learn to leave well enough alone.
She does.
Synesthesia wrote: "They are mostly Russian-Americans. We always get the fierce version of werewolves but real wolves are more complicated than that. I do want a story with a Kitsune. I read When Fox Was a Thousand ..."
Well Kitsune are an obvious choice of course, but there is some more, e.g. Polynesian sharkshifters, that one Hmong tigershifter/sorcerer, shapeshifting foxes from south America, the ancestors of the North American Dogrib Nation, materialized ghosts in the form of animals etc. etc. There is alot to chose from.
Ooo. Maybe I will try those next after this werewolf story.
Mostly rough ones >< I think I have one in my writing section.
Yes. But it's pretty rough. i changed a lot.
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Twilight? I supposed those half-naked shape-sifters were necessary to attract fans. It was said that they had abnormal body temp which required them to strip their top. Why not naked? If what they cared mostly was about body temp, they should just cover their 'most sacred piece' like Dani tribe in Papua. Not that those Dani people have abnormal body temp. They just choose to stay that way (not all though, some have their body covered)
SM tried to explain most of her Twilight blunders on her pages, which ended up to be some kind of awful biology lesson. Cassie, unfortunately, is following (hope not) the same trend, by explaining something she forgot to add in her books on her pages.
Bane Chronicles is losing its attraction. When I knew that Magnus was part Indonesian (which said to be his dominant race), I was not as excited as my Indonesian friends. I was thinking... okay and was more interested in knowing what Cassie knows about our people (or history). I can say that I am very disappointed with her knowledge. As a writer with so many fans, she should at least support her theory with enough information.