City of Copying Other Great Works (Mortal Instruments #Too Many)

[Mizuki]

Thalia wrote: "I think whatever Clare did in the past should be past; she owned up to it, "

I'm only curious, but how did she own up to her ripping off other people's creation in the past? I had actually tried to find some sign of her apologizing to those she had ripped off and etc. (Well, I learnt that she did ask Pamela Dean for permission to use Dean's text in her fanfic, but not a word about her apologizing to Ms. Dean for using her text without permission in the first place)

So far I had found nothing, instead I learnt about her lawyer friend threatening people and her cyberbullying fellow Harry Potter fans. Wow.

[Nikki]

No offence but i have never read the Harry Potter series , and i dont like star wars , but i do like this series ; everyone has different tastes , and just because you dont like the series doesnt mean you can have a rant and slag it off just because it may have used artisitc license

[Mizuki]

Nikki wrote: "No offence but i have never read the Harry Potter series"

You don't like Harry Potter and Star Wars, great. I don't like Harry Potter neither and have no feeling for Star Wars. But when Clare obviously ripped off HP, I still feel the need to say something because ripping off other people's creation is wrong.

just because you dont like the series doesnt mean you can have a rant and slag it off
Why not? Since when we are no longer allowed to express our dislike toward a book?

[Thalia]

Mizuki wrote: "Thalia wrote: "I think whatever Clare did in the past should be past; she owned up to it, "

I'm only curious, but how did she own up to her ripping off other people's creation in the past? I had a..."

I remembered it reading it somewhere, but of course, when I need it, I can't find it. :/ I'd done a lot of research on this before when I felt a need to protect Clare's honor or whatever, but honestly, this is a fight I'm not participating in anymore. I'm not going to stop liking or loving a book because of an author's reputation, so to me, it doesn't matter what happened years ago on Clare's long-dead FF.net account. If it matters to other people, than okey-dokey.

I don't know why I didn't stop following this topic a long time ago, but I'm definitely doing it now. To everyone--just know if you reply to me, it will be highly unlikely that I will respond, since I've stopped getting notifications for this topic.

Have a nice day. (:

[[deleted user]]

I am no raging fangirl, but it isn't nearly as awful as you imagine it to be.

To be honest, it is fair to say that there are exactly zero novels/movies/shows that aren't based entirely off of history, mythology/religion, and current events.

Name one counterexample.
I dare you.

[Eleri]

Allarice wrote: "I really didn't enjoy the books very much at all; they fell sort of flat for me. It wasn't my cup of tea.

I didn't particularly like the characters or writing style, and that was what clinched my ..."

Completely agree with this. Pretty similar to the review I gave it.
It was really hard to get past the similarities and the cliches.
More than that, the characters just didn't really work for me; Jace was completely inconsistent.
But my biggest problem with this was the cringe dialogue that I can only compare to a grown up trying to be "down with the kids'. So many cheesy lines. So much cheese.
Overall, every plot "twist" was highly predictable and left me with absolutely no desire to continue the series.

[Christopher]

Racheal wrote: "Themes, plots, and ideas will always circulate and be rewritten. It's the way the world works. There is no such thing as an original idea anymore. You can only try to make yours better, or more int..."

The problem is, they didn't make this better. The **SPOILERS** scene where Valentine is introduced as Jace's father, I yelled at my book. It was SO poorly written. Heavy-handed soap opera dialogue.

[Megan]

I can't stand it when someone starts a whole thread just to bash an author. Some of Cassanda Clare's idead may be a bit similar, but get over it! There are no new ideas under the sun! This whole supernatural thing has been going on for years! Sorry that you didn't like this book, but honestly, get over it. I thought it was an amazing series!

[Shannon]

Personally I LOVE this series, BUT everyone is entitled to their own opinion! I can see why some people hate it, while I wholeheartedly enjoy reading it.
That being said, I have no problem with anyone ripping on the series if they are stating their honest opinion. However, nothing you say is going to make me stop loving Cassandra Clare's books. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Or as we use to say back in grade school "It's a free country..."

[Mizuki]

Shannon wrote: "Personally I LOVE this series, BUT everyone is entitled to their own opinion! I can see why some people hate it, while I wholeheartedly enjoy reading it. "

Good point, Shannon. But sadly not every fan is like you, who have the decency to acknowledge people are entitled to their own opinion. We critics and non-fans are told to just "get over it" and "there's nothing new under the sun" often enough.

Well, it's off topic but I don't like to be simply told "there's nothing new under the sun you should just get over it!" whilst critics took time to list out the suspicious "similarities" between Clare's writing and the other famous series (e.g. Harry Potter) to point out Clare had crossed the line.

[Tyler]

Christopher wrote: "Racheal wrote: "Themes, plots, and ideas will always circulate and be rewritten. It's the way the world works. There is no such thing as an original idea anymore. You can only try to make yours bet..."

Haha, I did the same Christopher.

Oh, and it's funny how fans get upset over discussions like this. It amuses me greatly.

[Nurlely]

I wonder how fans should react to comments that 'bash' our fave books. Cheerfully agreeing?

Some comments are indeed decent enough for fans to read and contemplate. As much as I love TMI. Cassie is not without flaws. But some comments are not like that. Some comments are quite ridiculous it makes sense if fans are upset with them. To keep smiling upon such comments is nonsense!

[Tyler]

Oh please. You don't see me running into discussions that are clearly made for hating a book/series and whining that I don't like it when people bash my favorite book. That's obviously what the thread is made for, so why are you upset that someone hates your book and speaks negatively about it in a thread that's dedicated to it? Fans act like you can't bash a book if you don't like it. If you don't like it, leave! Or congregate with your friends and talk about how much you love the series instead of trying to tell everyone that it's wrong to hate a book. I get that it upsets you that someone disagrees with you about the book, but seriously... people are going to hate, and that's the way it is.

Then nonsense it shall be, for my amusement will not cease.

[Rachel]

I must make the point that all books and stories have elements of other books in them. The Hunger Games Capital government could be inspired by the Inner Party of Orwell's 1984. The training of the initiates for Dauntless in Divergent could be taken from The Hunger Games. What about this love triangle craze going around in books? We've seen it everywhere! Authors get ideas from things that are around them including books. It isn't fair to bash authors because they share the same elements from multiple books. Some things are similar to other books but other parts of City of Bones are completely original. I'm trying not to be biased but some people who hate this book are just bashing the author for no reason other than hating the book. Some avid fans blindly say everything Cassie Clare writes is original while others admit that there are some similar elements from other books. It's like that with every book so everyone just take a chill pill... and realize that literature elements are being used again and again in different forms in different stories. Let's all just relax and read and call a truce :)

[rachel ~ trans rights are human rights]

Okay just quick note: I do understand that a lot of books have similar plots, I do! But for me, this was just overkill. Maybe I just noticed the similarities or I went into it expecting to dislike it, I'm not sure.

Now I'm simply content with avoiding all books by Clare because I don't like her writing, and I was so insanely bored with TMI that I see no reason to finish this series and zero interest in her other one.

Also @Sandra, the sexism was... well, I don't completely remember, seeing as I've tried to block the book out to the best of my ability. I think it was mainly the stereotypes that the characters were thrust in? Mainly Isabelle -- she is this kickbutt girl that has all the guys wrapped around her finger and can flaunt it like no other, but she can't do certain things like cooking and cleaning and stuff. Not to say that women need to do these things; I'm not trying to say that all women need to be able to do this, it's just that... I feel like it was very stereotypical?

And with Jace is was that he was this totally bad-boy that was super hot and awesome, but he falls for this totally normal looking and kind of boring girl with one cool ability? I don't know, it was all just very fake for me.

I feel like I wrote this rant in a moment of rage after reading this book and now I seriously regret it. Geez.

[Nurlely]

Tyler wrote: "Oh please. You don't see me running into discussions that are clearly made for hating a book/series and whining that I don't like it when people bash my favorite book. That's obviously what the thr..."

LOL... you amused me.
I suppose you have jumped to a conclusion that your comments are those of ridiculous ones, for thinking that I am upset of TMI being said in negative ways.

I don't get upset by haters or dislikers, if they are only delivering their opinions about TMI. Some comments are ridiculous enough to read since they just point out their feeling, without submitting any proofs to support that. I usually find them amusing and interesting.

Leave? I think the correct term for that should be... Don't read.

[Rachel]

Nurlely wrote: "Tyler wrote: "Oh please. You don't see me running into discussions that are clearly made for hating a book/series and whining that I don't like it when people bash my favorite book. That's obviousl...LOL... you amused me.
I suppose you have jumped to a conclusion that your comments are those of ridiculous ones, for thinking that I am upset of TMI being said in negative ways.

I don't get upset by haters or dislikers, if they are only delivering their opinions about TMI. Some comments are ridiculous enough to read since they just point out their feeling, without submitting any proofs to support that. I usually find them amusing and interesting.

Leave? I think the correct term for that should be... Don't read. "

Haha IKR?! I read some of these posts just for laughs

[Nurlely]

Rachel wrote: "Haha IKR?! I read some of these posts just for laughs "

Yep. Shouldn't reading lesson be accomplished before one goes to criticizing lesson?
And we are accused to be the 'whining' ones.... LOL

[Andre]

Ok, I am throwing my two cents in it and I try to be as short as possible:
1. All you defenders have so far not made a very good case. This is a discussion so you better have good arguments or even better actual evidence from the source material, but that is what you defenders have so far pretty much lacking of. Basically defenders here just said: that is not a rip-off, it's original, there are no original ideas or the ever popular "I love this series."
But you never said why. Not really, you basically just tried to make the whole discussion move into a different direction by saying others do this and that. Provide evidence from the books for your statements and opinions, don't insult others or just repeat yourself.

2. It is one thing to have an archetypical plot structure or characters, or to have similarities with other books. So did Anne Rice in The Wolf Gift but it wasn't a rip-off or anything. Because here is the thing: If books have so much in common with the popular titles of the last 10-15 years people do get suspicious and they have every right and reason to be so. To name only a very small number of examples of similarities that have not so far been mentioned:
Jace has golden eyes, watches Clary as she sleeps (even before they are together), plays piano, has a perfect body and is wanted by any girl he meets -> Edward Cullen
The description of the Silent Brothers with their soundless movements and shut eyes and mouths, and robes -> Dementors
The abilities of the vampires -> classic Dracula
The vampires are mostly pale, poreless skin, beautiful and alluring -> Twilight and Anne Rice
The making process of a vampire -> combination of Anne Rice, Buffy and True Blood (Southern Vampire Chronicles)
The vampire werewolf instinctual hatred -> Underworld
The vampires and werewolves descend from two demons that hate each other and are "infected" with their conditions -> Underworld + Underworld Evolution
Valentines light hair -> Lucious Malfoy
The inquisitor from City of Ashes -> Barty Crouch from the film Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire
The house in CoLS that is "moving around" and opens its door to different locations -> Howl's moving Castle
The mirror, the sword, the cup -> Harry Potter: The mirror erised, the sword of griffindor, the house cup
Lucien Greymark -> Lucien from Underworld and Fenrir Greyback
Camille -> Carmilla
Eloisa Ravenscar (Bane chronicles 3) -> Helena Ravenclaw

Trust me there is plenty of more where that came from.

[Mizuki]

When I talk about the rip-off business, I mostly focused on Harry Potter, because the similarities are just too much.

But this The vampire werewolf instinctual hatred -> Underworld thingy....damn this one so damn overused.

The vampires and werewolves descend from two demons that hate each other and are "infected" with their conditions -> Underworld + Underworld Evolution
Wow, hadn't noticed it before you mentioned that.XD

And Lucien Greymark -> Lucien from Underworld and Fenrir Greyback? My goodness, Lucien Greymark? that's a bit much.=__=

[Spider the Doof Warrior]

Grr Werewolves and vampires equaling demons. Goddess's TITS I know I could write better than this woman.

I'll do it too. See if I won't!

[Mizuki]

@Synesthesia: Carry on!

[Spider the Doof Warrior]

I have been working on this for over a decade trying to NOT copy people. Basically my story was inspired by a Neil Gaiman story I read in one of the Sandman books but do you think I will make it exactly like that? Of course not! Because I hate that sort of thing deeply, dang it.

[Mizuki]

It has already been said before but I will say it again here: drawing inspiration from other authors' creations is different from having your book stuffed with ideas not from you, but from some other authors else.

[Shannon]

Rachel wrote: "I must make the point that all books and stories have elements of other books in them. The Hunger Games Capital government could be inspired by the Inner Party of Orwell's 1984. The training of the..."
This is SO true because authors are first and foremost writers, but they're also readers just like the rest of us. The books they read serve to influence their writing, and while they shouldn't COPY, this connection between works is one of the amazing parts of the world of literature.

[Lori]

I had never heard of these books until they came up as a bargain deal on amazon one day. Never one to turn down a book bargain I purchased them (the first three) and I have to say I thoroughly enjoyed them. The main reason - I adore Magnus Bane!!
In this house we are HUGE Harry Potter fans and I can honestly say that I never made any connection to them. I mean I had never heard of Cassandra Clare and (until I read this) knew nothing of her FF stuff so I wasn't expecting to find similarities.
I just read the books and enjoyed them - and for me, at the end of the day, that is all I want from a book.
Some very popular books I don't enjoy (The Hunger Games for example) but again I think it is just a taste thing.
As a light reading, entertaining book, these were just my cup of tea. But we are all different and enjoy different things - and notice different things! It would be boring if we didn't.

[Andre]

I must disagree,I am a Potter fan as well, albeit I think the books do have their flaws, and I noticed several similarities betwen TMI and CP. Also I must say I didn't think of that but vampires descending from demons is exactly the origin story of the vampires in Buffy. In the first few episodes it was stated that the last great demon met a human and bit that one and the human became the first vampire.

It is not the similarities with other works that are the problem, it is the size of it. If there are so many as in Clare's books it is at the very least very suspicious. And when you also take into account that she practically recycles her main characters over and over, it makes the whole thing even more fishy. You Lorraine said that you adore Magnus, which I cannot understand because he acts like a spoiled brat and not a 300 year old man, but trust me, once I read the Bane Chronicles, I found that the Magnus there was not only a hypocritical, fashion obsessed and sex crazy diva, he was also just another version of Jace. The same problem with Edmund Herondale and his son Will, as well as Jem Carstairs. They are all just different versions of Jace. And if an author does that, it doesn't lend credibility to the claim that an author is good.

[FallingAngels]

I didn't really see any sexism... could you give an example?

[Andre]

Clary falls for a guy that is totally rude to her all the time. From the two people with angel blood the boy gets the physical powers and the girl the magical powers. The main girl is totally reckless, ungrateful, never learns and has to be constantly rescued.

[Spider the Doof Warrior]

Yeah, pretty much.

[Reader-ramble]

I can't believe I'm jumping in on this, but here I go.

The "inspiration" argument aside, Clare just isn't a very good writer. I managed to write a few very long reviews for the first three books without dipping into the other works she drew from. A lot of people have covered it, and it just felt like I was beating a dead horse. Her main characters alone were poorly written enough for me to swear off reading any more Clare.

Oh. I can't forget all the similes. Those were painful.

[Spider the Doof Warrior]

Oh, goddesses bouncing buxom TITS THE SIMILES!

[Reader-ramble]

Synesthesia wrote: "Oh, goddesses bouncing buxom TITS THE SIMILES!"

I actually laughed out loud at that. That was the best reaction ever.

It's sad to think someone actually read these books before they were published and let them pass. Most of them lack all logic. She has a cat yowling like a foghorn. If that isn't a face-palm/head-desk moment, I don't know what is.

[Lori]

Andre wrote: "I must disagree,I am a Potter fan as well, albeit I think the books do have their flaws, and I noticed several similarities between TMI and CP. Also I must say I didn't think of that but vampires de..."

I'm not saying I think you are wrong - I just didn't notice the similarities when I read them, (maybe I'm just an oblivious kinda person). I honestly just read the books and enjoyed them, yeah, they are never going to change the world, but they passed a few hours happily for me!
I do love Magnus, though I have yet to read The Bane Chronicles.
Of course Harry Potter and Buffy the Vampire Slayer are much better. Xander, Spike, Willow - those were the days!

[Andre]

Trust me, don't read the Bane Chronicles, I know other people that loved Magnus before and hated him after reading them.
To give you a hint: in the first book when drunk Magnus shoots needles at his two friends and in the second book he states to have a heart that always feels for the poor and wretched but there is not even a mentioning throughout the entire book that he so much as lifted a finger to help anyone unless being paid in some way. What was stated in book 3 I better not tell you.

Now as for the similarities, they are randomly entered, mostly, so they are not that obvious. But they are there and numerous enough to cause suspicion. I am pretty sure, would I read the books once again with an actual critical eye I would find even more.

@LeeAnna
I think most critics of her know of Clare's bad writing, but I think most didn't want to bring that in as well, since we could write a dissertation about that.

[Tyler]

Nurlely wrote: "Tyler wrote: "Oh please. You don't see me running into discussions that are clearly made for hating a book/series and whining that I don't like it when people bash my favorite book. That's obviousl..."

Amusing again! You all make me smile, thank you. :)

Oh really? LOL So I can't read a book and dislike it afterward? How absurd. I suppose I should just love every book I read. xD No, it's called "ignoring it". If you can't handle people talking crap about your favorite series, then you need to go somewhere else.

I respect people's opinions, but when fans freak out because people hate the series and act like it's impossible to not like it, it's hilarious.

[Jade]

I'm trying to give this series a chance again, I read CoB, about two or three years ago, and I found myself realizing it had similarities with other mainstream media items, i.e. Harry Potter, Star Wars, etc. That wasn't even really the part that bothered me so much- it was the writing. Of course some ideas are going to be used in other series but executed differently and well (hopefully).

While re-reading this (read it on my ereader) so I highlighted some points, and only a chapter or two in someone's eye colour is being compared to being the same colour as anti-freeze- that made me cringe.

I DO enjoy the storyline, but I do agree with the OP that it doesn't seem entirely original.

[Andre]

Jade wrote: "I'm trying to give this series a chance again, I read CoB, about two or three years ago, and I found myself realizing it had similarities with other mainstream media items, i.e. Harry Potter, Star ..."

The writing and the many plotholes are my biggest problem. To often I asked myself:
Who writes like that?
What does that mean?
Why are they doing this?
That was stated differently before.

[Addee]

Horses for courses..

[Andre]

I am not familiar with that pharase. Is that some sort of figure of speech?

[Lori]

Andre wrote: "I am not familiar with that pharase. Is that some sort of figure of speech?"
It means we all like different things - each horse has it's own course they are best on.

[Andre]

And on what exactly is this book best on? There must be something otherwise that statement is invalid.

[Halena W]

rayful wrote: "So I'll come right out and say that I hated this book. I didn't even bother with the others because, uhm, there's really no point. What I don't understand is how people can really enjoy this book..."

Mmm, StarWars connection VERY vague, I would say, because as you find out later in the series- 4th, 5th book?- Valentine (SPOILER!!!) is not Jace's father. Sure, he is Clary's, but it's not really the same thing. Also, what the heck is the point of hate threads?! Yes, WE GET IT, some of you hate the books. Some of you loved them. I think it's been said enough times by now!

[Andre]

This is no hate threat, it is a discussion, it is defenders who label it as such. Hate threads would have called Clare names already. Also that Valentine was not Jace's father was already revealed in book 3.
Also the "I am your father" thing is not the only topic CoB has in common with Star Wars. There is also that Jace thought him dead and a good man only to find out that he is the big baddy. And that is not just something Jace has, but Clary also.

[Mizuki]

Halena wrote: "Mmm, StarWars connection VERY vague, "

Off topic, but that ***(spoiler)**** Jace and Clary not being related looks like an easy way out for their relationship to be okay. That also makes that whole "OMG he/she is my brother/sister" drama looks it's only there for shock value.*******(end of spoiler)*******

[Spider the Doof Warrior]

Pretty much. it's not as if I called her an icky barnacle.
Seriously, barnacles are ICKY AND GROSS AND WRONG. UGH. But, it's just the woman doesn't have an original idea at all. It makes me a bit cross that she's so popular despite that.

[Lori]

Andre wrote: "And on what exactly is this book best on? There must be something otherwise that statement is invalid."
I didn't explain very well, the phrase horses for courses is an English expression that just means we all like different things. It doesn't mean that the book has to have a point it is 'best on'.

[Andre]

Then, what do you like about this book? What is it?

[Lori]

Andre wrote: "Then, what do you like about this book? What is it?"
Honestly Andre, I don't really know - I haven't analysed it, I just enjoyed the series as a bit of escapist reading. As I said before I love Magnus Bane - he makes me laugh. I like the romances, cos I'm a sucker for a romance. Sometimes a bit of light fiction just hits the spot. I'm not going to say I didn't like it just because other people didn't and I honestly don't know exactly why I did like it - I just did! Sorry if that is a bit vague, but it's the truth.

[Andre]

And that is the main problem. No fan can ever say what it is and doesn't that trouble you? I mean what if all you fall for is basically advertizing? And the thing is, is Magnus supposed to be funny? And what is so great about these romances? We know practically nothing as to why Alec and Magnus were dating, Clary's feelings for Jace came out of nowhere after he acted totally rude to her, Jace's could have just as well been done by a fairy so unxplained is it and Issy, Maya and Simon aren't any better. In my book these "romances" are simply not romantic, there is no development, no growth, just constant pseudodrama for no apparent reason. I mean why on earth did Jace not trust Clary in CoFA? If the relationship with Alec was so important to Magnus why did he do nothing to save it?