City of Copying Other Great Works (Mortal Instruments #Too Many)

[Lori]

I think it is much easier to state reasons about books that you have a huge reaction too - books you hate or love. I know I can give lots of reasons to books that I dislike or really like. Books that have just been enjoyed on a basic level then put down and then read the next one read, maybe not so easy to give reasons. Or maybe I'm just an airhead. Who knows. (She's not finished with Alec & Magnus yet, I'm hoping the relationship does get saved!)

[Goddess]

rayful wrote: "So I'll come right out and say that I hated this book. I didn't even bother with the others because, uhm, there's really no point. What I don't understand is how people can really enjoy this book..."

it's the romance and girly elements, my dear. Hence why it's greatest fans are girls. Jace, the Love Interest, is hot.

Many good books have similar plots and so forth but regurgitated for a targeted audience. This book took great elements from top notch books and combined them with chic lit/romantic YA ingredients.

I was ok with the first book. Tolerated the second. Gave up by the 3rd.

[Spider the Doof Warrior]

It is not good romance to me. How is Jace appealing when he's totally a jerk? I don't care if a man is as hot as Kaoru of Dir en grey.

And Kaoru is totally hot with those high chiseled cheekbones, long hair. sexy tattoos. The way he plays guitar with that far away look in his eyes. And he plays these intricate guitar parts. And he writes songs. *sigh*

Where was i? But I don't care how sexy he is if he is a jerk, I would not want to be bother with him! I hate jerks. I've had enough of them. They must stay away from me. I will scare them with spiders.

[Mallory]

Synesthesia wrote: "It is not good romance to me. How is Jace appealing when he's totally a jerk? I don't care if a man is as hot as Kaoru of Dir en grey.

And Kaoru is totally hot with those high chiseled cheekbone..."

Totally agree. I don't get the appeal of asshole guys. I like nice, romantic men that treat women with respect. If my husband had ever treated me the way Jace treats everyone around him, he sure wouldn't be my husband.

[Spider the Doof Warrior]

Yes, give me a nice man anyday. Even if he wasn't conventionally hot, as long as he's nice, that's better than him treating you like steaming dog crap.

[Mallory]

I think my hubby is adorable but not what a lot would call hot. But he treats me like a queen and never acts an ass. Which makes me love him all the more. I went to school with a bunch of hot assholes and I never thought for a second of dating them. They had few redeeming qualities.

[Andre]

Lorraine wrote: "I think it is much easier to state reasons about books that you have a huge reaction too - books you hate or love. I know I can give lots of reasons to books that I dislike or really like. Books th..."

I wouldn't worry about Magnus and Alec, they are probably gonna get "saved" next year (no idea why Clare doesn't finish TMI instead of releasing Bane Chronicles), possibly not in a very convincing way but considered that in all three books of the Bane Chronicles so far Alec came up one way or another (usually by showing us time and again what Magnus' favorite traits are) I think it is save to say that you don't have to worry about anything.

Now the thing is, that Clare just took the formular of "nice" girl meeting bad guy and both fall in love and even that is not done good. It just happens. It is not like in Beauty and the Beast by Disney when Bell falls for Beast after he stopped acting like a jerk, Jace acted like a jerk the whole time and afterwards as well.

[Spider the Doof Warrior]

Yeah. Belle fell for the Beast because he stopped being such a beast. Jace treats Simon and everyone else badly.

[Tyler]

Goddess wrote: "rayful wrote: "So I'll come right out and say that I hated this book. I didn't even bother with the others because, uhm, there's really no point. What I don't understand is how people can really ..."

Yes! You're right. Very well said.

Same here. I didn't even finish book 3.

[Andre]

I had the stomach to do it and believe it or not, but I read even worse. Like Women are from Venus and Men are from Mars, or however that book was called.

[Spider the Doof Warrior]

I loathe and detest men are from mars.

[Jade]

Andre wrote: "Jade wrote: "I'm trying to give this series a chance again, I read CoB, about two or three years ago, and I found myself realizing it had similarities with other mainstream media items, i.e. Harry ..."

I think that was one of the big reasons the prequel series was written (The Infernal Devices) was to clear up many plot holes in the The Mortal Instruments by introducing the ancestors. I actually like TID more than TMI, you can really tell the writing has improved, and there are less characters so you get emotionally attached to them. I don't feel that way with TMI. (not yet anyways, I'm on the second book)

Anyways I digress... I agree- there are several plot holes and some stuff just doesn't make sense. And I really felt there were a lot of cop-outs in CoB.

[Andre]

For me TID made TMI even worse, all those plotholes and inconsistencies. I mean did it never bother you that there were so many women as warriors in the past, that Jem could just walk around or that none of the vampires at de Quincey's party tried not to squeeze itself through a door? Not to mention the obvious plot similarities and recycling of characters.

[The FountainPenDiva, Old school geek chick and lover of teddy bears]

I am totally disturbed about the trend of YA heroines insta-falling for male characters who are abusive/jerks. I get strong but silent, but everytime Jace talked down to Clary (and she let him) I wanted to slap them both. Him for being a first-class asshat and her for taking his asshatery.

[Jade]

Andre wrote: "For me TID made TMI even worse, all those plotholes and inconsistencies. I mean did it never bother you that there were so many women as warriors in the past, that Jem could just walk around or tha..."

I think because I had only read CoB, and that had been about two or three years ago (I only re read it after reading TID) that I didn't notice the plot similarities. I hated Will right off the bat for what a complete ass he was, but throughout the series I became sympathetic. I thought the "curse" was such a bullshit cop out but I still felt sorry for the guy. The curse plot didn't seem completely well thought out in my opinion.

The thing with Jem confused me though. I'll admit. It was never said he wore glamours when him and Tessa went out, so wouldn't people think it odd that a man with silvery hair, eyes, etc. was roaming the streets of England?

[Andre]

The "curse" never made him sympathetic to me, after all did he ever try to break it or did it force him to be around other people?

Clare has similar problems with Jem and Magnus. In the second book of the Bane Chronicles he just walks around the high society of Paris without wearing any glamour and the authors want us, as many readers apparently do, to believe that people would actually believe that his cat eyes are a fashion trick. Interestingly it doesn't seem to occur to anyone working for or with Clare that cat eye pupils differ according to light and that under low light the pupils are round. But put that aside, would people actually buy this Magnus would have all sorts of company because they would want to find out how that works. But it doesn't stop there, Magnus wears really no glamour, in 1791. At a time when xenophobia was widespread in the political circles of France. Marie Antoinette was as white as can be and she had problems due to her Austrian birth and then someone of mixed Dutch-Indonesian ancestry like Magnus is just friends with all of high society? Also there was never any mentioning about Jem facing discrimination in China. He was born shortly after the Second Opium War, when the Chinese suffered a humiliating defeat against the British, not to mention that the opium the british imported was supposedly called foreign... something, and Jem mentions this and still no one would have a problem with a kid having a british name and a british father? Clare expects us to believe that simply calling Jem Jian makes it any more credible? Did he never get out of the Institute in China? Not to mention that Tessa doesn't fit her times as well. CA happens only 4 years prior to the Chinese Exclusion Act in the United States and the Anti Chinese Movement has been strong for years if not decades and yet Tessa knows no prejudices? And belief me, it doesn't stop there. Don't get me started on the topic of homosexuality.

[Jade]

Andre wrote: "The "curse" never made him sympathetic to me, after all did he ever try to break it or did it force him to be around other people?

Clare has similar problems with Jem and Magnus. In the second boo..."

I haven't read the Bane Chronicles yet, I have the first one downloaded on my ereader, but I'm annoyed with the fact I have to pay $3.99 for about 70 pages. (maybe I'm cheap, lol).

I agree with all of what you've said, a lot of it isn't very believable if you read into it. I think I might avoid the Bane Chronicles, because I've heard people that have LOVED Magnus Bane before the Bane Chronicles and don't like him as much afterward.

[Andre]

Save your money, if you want to read the book, loan it, trust me its really not worth it. You can write books like that, when its a parody or general comedy, but not when it is supposed to be taken seriously and dealing with serious topics.

And trust me, people that hated Magnus afterwards don't seem to be rare. Trust me, they are here in this discussion already.

[Jade]

Andre wrote: "Save your money, if you want to read the book, loan it, trust me its really not worth it. You can write books like that, when its a parody or general comedy, but not when it is supposed to be taken..."

Thanks for the heads up! It took me this long to read TMI, maybe I'll read the Bane Chronicles somewhere down the line.

[Mariana]

For every one person who hates this book, there are a thousand people who like it. It's popular and different. Because let's face it, Shadowhunters are original. Cassandra thought up the name, and words like parabatai that actually sound realistic. She also made the world of Shadowhunters and new characters with memorable personalities. I liked the TMI series as well as TID and I think Cassandra Clare has talent.

[Nurlely]

Tyler wrote: " If you can't handle people talking crap about your favorite series, then you need to go somewhere else."

Oh dear. You really need to learn how to read before submitting any more poor comments.

I don't actually mind people talking what about my fave books. If they dislike or hate, then I just submit the facts of why I love the books, as an argument. Each doesn't need to satisfy the other as a result.

You keep trying to dismiss me. I wonder how much do you know about involving in a discussion is. Close to zero I suppose.

[Spider the Doof Warrior]

Original? Different? Really?

[Nurlely]

In overall, I enjoyed reading TMI (although I had my ups and downs with each book). I didn't spend time analysing why I liked the series or bothered myself reading other readers' point of view for me to continue reading. I just went on reading if that activity made me happy.

I don't like TID in overall and will not recommend the series to my friends anymore. I love Clockwork Angel so much, but Clockwork Princess is awful enough for me to do not consider TID as one of my fave series anymore.

[Reader-ramble]

I know I missed making my point earlier. I was just trying to say that Clare isn't a very good writer to begin with. Her failure to hide her inspiration well as easter eggs for fans of YA paranormal romance/fantasy is just one example. It's true you could write a dissertation on the books' failures, but I'm not going to bash on the people who like them. Most people who don't like the books don't attack the fans. We just like to sit here and discuss the things we didn't like about it just as you like to discuss the things you liked about it. I've had fans tell me that they liked my one star reviews, thought they were true and funny, but they love the books still and I respect that.

That said, it is disturbing how prevalent and accepted the special girl meets cute jerk-off and falls in love plot line is. It saddens me. It isn't a positive message to send to young women. The he-hits-you-because-he-likes you mentality doesn't even really work in elementary school.

[Mizuki]

Mallory *Queen Nerd* wrote: "Totally agree. I don't get the appeal of asshole guys. I like nice, romantic men that treat women with respect. If my husband had ever treated me the way Jace treats everyone around him, he sure wouldn't be my husband. "

Glad to hear good common sense helped you to find a good partner, Mallory!

[Reader-ramble]

Mizuki wrote: "Mallory *Queen Nerd* wrote: "Totally agree. I don't get the appeal of asshole guys. I like nice, romantic men that treat women with respect. If my husband had ever treated me the way Jace treats ev..."

I think you have the wrong person, but thanks. I did manage to find a man who respects me. He once surprised me with pizza by candlelight and waited two hours in the rain with flowers for me. The most important thing, be call each other out on our BS.

[Mizuki]

Oh, my bad!

[Reader-ramble]

No problem. I'm sure Nerd Queen Mallory will come across your compliment and appreciate the sentiment.

[Mizuki]

Thank you!

[Andre]

Mariana wrote: "For every one person who hates this book, there are a thousand people who like it. It's popular and different. Because let's face it, Shadowhunters are original. Cassandra thought up the name, and ..."

Neither the name Shadowhunters nor Nephilim is original in any way, neither runes giving you powers or a secret society of super powered beings protecting humanity. Clare just threw stuff together and that is all. The Shadowhunters look like a mix of Buffy, Harry Potter and Angel, possibly even world of warcraft.

Memorable personalities... Tell me, what did Clary ever say about Jace's personality?

And as for memorable in general: that is not very complicated if she recycles the same characters over and over.

[Mizuki]

Mariana wrote: "For every one person who hates this book, there are a thousand people who like it. It's popular and different."

For how many times we need to state that just because a thousand people like the series doesn't actually make it a good one? I had number of Twilight fans telling me Twilight is awesome because millions of people love this series. I used to LOL so hard at their remarks.

As to the TMI being "different", I don't even want to argue.

[Andre]

What argument, so far none of the defenders of the series have ever stated what is original and different about it, they just claim that this and that is, but it's all easily to falsify simnply by looking at the popular titles of the last 10 years.

[Mallory]

Mizuki wrote: "Mallory *Queen Nerd* wrote: "Totally agree. I don't get the appeal of asshole guys. I like nice, romantic men that treat women with respect. If my husband had ever treated me the way Jace treats ev..."

Yes, I did come across your comment, and thanks!

[Mizuki]

Andre wrote: "What argument, so far none of the defenders of the series have ever stated what is original and different about it"

I saw someone claimed that Shadowhunter and parabatai are original. But sadly I don't find magical fighters who are sworn brothers/sisters in arm that original..

[Mizuki]

@Mallory *Queen Nerd*: You're welcomed!

[Andre]

Mizuki wrote: "Andre wrote: "What argument, so far none of the defenders of the series have ever stated what is original and different about it"

I saw someone claimed that Shadowhunter and parabatai are original..."

It is not really, it is basically just blood brothers again.

[Mizuki]

Andre wrote: "It is not really, it is basically just blood brothers again. "

If we keep saying that someone is bound to tell us "There's nothing new under the sun" all over again. Wanna bet?

Talking about blood brothers who swore to lay down their lives for their fellow brothers, even Black Daggers Brotherhood series by J D. Ward has that too!

[natalie]

Six pages into comments I'd just like to add that if it had just been a trilogy with maybe, a stand alone prequel book and its movie, I wouldn't have cared. But my God CC gets mangas and essays (that are published and cost money?!) and short stories and her second movie already freakin green lit and ten other series and I just uuuuuuRRRGH

[Andre]

It is really nothing original that is true, the question is simply whether it is done right and here Clare once again failed. I mean she wants us to believe that Alec could not have noticed that Jace was dead because it was supposedly only so short, when in fact Jace must have been dead for quite a time.

[Mizuki]

Andre wrote: "I mean she wants us to believe that Alec could not have noticed that Jace was dead because it was supposedly only so short, when in fact Jace must have been dead for quite a time. "

Yes, it absolutely makes no sense.

And in Clockwork Prince, all of a sudden it's revealed that some of the Shadowhunters can see ghosts!

[Andre]

Just some? Not all of them?

[Tyler]

Lightning wrote: "Six pages into comments I'd just like to add that if it had just been a trilogy with maybe, a stand alone prequel book and its movie, I wouldn't have cared. But my God CC gets mangas and essays (th..."

Thank you. My feelings exactly.

[Mariana]

Andre wrote: "Mariana wrote: "For every one person who hates this book, there are a thousand people who like it. It's popular and different. Because let's face it, Shadowhunters are original. Cassandra thought u..."

Thank you Andre, for following me into yet another discussion.

[Mariana]

Mizuki wrote: "Mariana wrote: "For every one person who hates this book, there are a thousand people who like it. It's popular and different."

For how many times we need to state that just because a thousand peo..."

But it's not Twilight is the thing. Tons of authors have reused the same ideas and nobody picks on those authors. For example, how many books are out there where the girl or boy dreams of said love interest before meeting? Because I've read many. If I think the series is original I don't have to explain why, as I've already said in my previous comment. If people like the series than so be it.

[Mizuki]

Andre wrote: "Just some? Not all of them?"

Not all of them, it's supposed to be a rare talent, and you know what? Will had it!

[Mizuki]

You misunderstood me, Mariana. I'm only pointing out how lamp it's for people to use the book's popularity to proof that TMI must be a good series.

[W]

Okay, so TMI is a type of high fantasy, and incase you didn't realize, they share common aspects with many other high fantasy series.[A distinct world within-a-world as part of the primary world]. In addition, not liking characters' personalities does not make them bad characters (Just because Jace pisses you off, doesn't mean Clare shouldn't be allowed to write him the way he is). Thirdly, how many books have we all read, where a villain returns from supposed death, to cause havoc and harm [valentine]? How many books have we all read where the villain[valentine] believes him/herself to be doing good (the classic - the ends justify the means). How many books have we all read where there's a love story (EVERY FREAKING BOOK) or some magical items (the ring & Magic swords in LOTR or the deathly hallows from HP or [if you choose to go into the olden days - magic carpets in 1001 nights] or the holy grail from Arthurian literature. the list goes on...); How many books have supernatural things like demons or angels or nephilim or whatever? How many books have an individual suddenly thrust into a world that s/he never knew existed (HP, or Narnia or Percy Jackson or even Alice in Wonderland) AND have to do something to save that world?

Ideas get recycled, and reused, there's going to be similarities, so its rather a moot point to say that this book is unoriginal.

[Andre]

And we have another one ladies and gentlemen. Do you really think repeating the same stuff again like so many others did will make it any more valid? Nobody here argues that many stories share similarities, but Clare recycles her own characters all the time, has so many stereotypes and so many similarities to the popular works of the last 10 years, which weren't even that different to begin with, that the conclusion is logical that she just copied.
What you are trying to do is to use an established fact about literature and try to make it look as though Clare's books have only these basic elements in common with other books, but that is not the case. In the last Bsne Chronicles book Edmund had an aunt called Millicent and there was a Shadowhunter called Eloisa Ravenscar, which sounds both very much like Harry Potter. And while Millicent is a more or less common name, Ravenscar definitely isn't. And there is more, there are the looks of the characters, their names, heck she even had Vlad Tepez as a vampire. She doesn't even try to have anything new or at least rarely seen.

@Mizuki
Which sadly is what many people take as a good reason, they seriously think because something is popular it must be good. No, it means it hit a demand. Ever since Twilight came along the dumbass in distress + good looking asshole combination became so popular that so many people seem to want it. That is why a badly written book like 50 Shades of Grey got successfull and it is the same here. This book has nothing to offer but the same crap that romanticizes bad behavior and control freaks.

@Mariana
If you actually think that I followed you here, then you officially lost it. Not to mention that I never followed you anywhere. Get down to earth before you totally loose your marbles.

As for your "I don't have to eplain why" attitude, that is excactly what people say when they like something, don't know why and are too afraid to admit it. What you are saying there is basically that you don't know and so far you have not provided any evidence to the contrary; quite the contrary in fact, you did your best to provide the evidence for it. Would you have good reasons for liking this series, would you know what it is and could you provide evidence for it, you would have blurted it out. But you didn't, so the logical conclusion is that you simply are one of the many that just consume books in the most passive way possible.
And I am sure someone must have asked you already: If you don't like the topic of this discussion, if you don't like to be here and have nothing to bring to the table, then what are you doing here?

[Nurlely]

Andre wrote: "...That is why a badly written book like 50 Shades of Grey got successfull and it is the same here. "

I was tempted to read it, despite the fact that no one recommended the series to me. I stopped on page 200 something. I might continue, if I need to feel lusty.. LOL

They are making the series into movie. I wonder if they will rate it as porn movie then.

New book of BC? I must check it out.
Just curious Andre. How did you manage reading Cassie's new book (novella) if you never liked her books?
I love book 1-5 of TMI and 1-2 of TID. I feel that one day, Cassie can make me enjoy reading her books again, after killing me with her last works. That is why I keep reading her book/novella.

[Andre]

To 50 Shades of Grey I can only say: If a 21 year old doesn't recognize fear right away, then the author is a bad writer.

I am not sure whether there will be a film, I hope not.

Now as for the Clare books:
First people I knew said they were soooo great, but these also like the incredibly sexist and racist Vampire Diaries show and excused its mysoginistic stories with "not everyone can be a hero". So my hopes weren't high. And while Clare's books weren't good in any way they weren't difficult to read and also I thought that there must be something of substance there, but there is nothing at all.

Now I do it basically because I want to try and submit an article to racialicious.com since I think Clare should not be credited the way she is for her "non-white" characters, not the way she glosses issues of xenophobia and racism over like that. Cheering for what she writes in that regard is like cheering for Twilight wolves being half-naked brutal savages just because there are "Natives" on the screen, which half of them aren't even. And so I have to read the books, by the way so far it really doesn't look good, and I though, I might as well write a review then.

By the way the last Bane Chronicles book was plain boring, and Magnus is the same ass he has been in the books before that. I stay with it, someone with a friend like him doesn't need enemies.