City of Bones
discussion
City of Copying Other Great Works (Mortal Instruments #Too Many)
Spider the Doof Warrior wrote: "No. The whole point of this site is writing our opinions on books. You are not going to tell me I can't comment about this series. Yes, a lot of things have similar elements, but they TRY for origi..."Cassandra Clare uses elements from other originalities and morphs them into her own. You people make it sound like she looked up a bunch of stuff and copied it down directly.
Roman wrote: "Cassandra Clare uses elements from other originalities and morphs them into her own. You people make it sound like she looked up a bunch of stuff and copied it down directly."Well in some cases that seems to be the fact. However a rip-off is not an exact copy, and those arguing for her just ripping-off whatever she likes and cannot even use it right have given plenty of examples for that. However not a single one of you defenders of her books so far did anything similar.
You claim that her characters are unique, that the elements are her own and that the stories are incredible. Well if that is the case, you surely can provide evidence to support your claim right?
Honestly I personally do not think that Cassandra plagarized Harry Potter or any other book. When you say that she plagarized Star Wars with "The Whole Father Thing" is used in a LOT of books that arent by Cassandra, its just a very common theme, so what is wrong with her for using it?
You also stated that this series is similar to Harry Potter. If we want to get technical, which I do, it has been proven many times over that J.K. Rowling copied many elements of the Harry Potter series from works done by other authors.
It is a know fact that many YA novels of today follow pretty much the same outline:
1) Main character is a "normal teen"
2) Something "unordinary" happens to them
3) The main characters life changes significantly
4) They have a dorky or funny "best friend"
The Mortal Instruments follows this same outline, yet it has some of its own elements.
First of all the world is unique. It does not paralell any world that I am aware of. It also is not anything like Harry Potter except for maybe the fact that her dad was famous as a bad character (Ex. Harry was famous because he killed Voldemort.) Other than this, there are no other similarities.
Other than these ideas, the world is all her own. Just because it is not as well written as you may have wanted it to be doesnt mean that she copied other authors. Cassandra made up the concept of Shadowhunters all by herself. If you have proof that this is not her idea then feel free to show me.
Anna wrote: "Honestly I personally do not think that Cassandra plagarized Harry Potter or any other book. When you say that she plagarized Star Wars with "The Whole Father Thing" is used in a LOT of books tha..."
Same to you: Provide evidence for your statements!!!
Andre wrote: "Anna wrote: "Honestly I personally do not think that Cassandra plagarized Harry Potter or any other book. When you say that she plagarized Star Wars with "The Whole Father Thing" is used in a LOT..."
She just did! Did you actually read what she wrote?
https://fanlore.org/wiki/The_Cassandr...She doesn't have an original bone in her body. At least other people put themselves into things. She's taken stuff verbatim from other places.
Roman wrote: "She just did! Did you actually read what she wrote? "Yes I did. Not that I am surprised that you would think that she provided any evidence since she basically wrote what you did. Both of you simply stated that Clare was original but provided no evidence for it. And if you confuse making statement with providing evidence, I don't think you can be reasoned with. So either provide some evidence that support your claim or live with the fact that you did nothing to make your claims credible, while critics provided plenty of evidence to counter your claims.
Andre wrote: "Roman wrote: "She just did! Did you actually read what she wrote? "Yes I did. Not that I am surprised that you would think that she provided any evidence since she basically wrote what you did. B..."
This is pointless. You have your opinion. I have mine. it's over.
Roman wrote: "This is pointless. You have your opinion. I have mine. it's over. "This has not even started. During this course, I and other critics provided plenty of evidence to show why we have our opinions. You however have done nothing of that sort and only repeated your opinion time and again. And now you claim it is over because you are either unwilling or unable to provide any reasons as to why you have your opinions. I assume it is because these books are nothing what you claim there are and a part of your knows that. If it is not, proof us wrong, show why you have your opinions, but you straight up refuse and so you don't come along as particularly reasonable.
Roman wrote: "Andre wrote: "Anna wrote: "Honestly I personally do not think that Cassandra plagarized Harry Potter or any other book. When you say that she plagarized Star Wars with "The Whole Father Thing" is..."
Thank you!!
Andre wrote: "Roman wrote: "She just did! Did you actually read what she wrote? "Yes I did. Not that I am surprised that you would think that she provided any evidence since she basically wrote what you did. B..."
Okay then, show me evidence that the world of Shadowhunters, The characters names and characteristics, and the story line has been copied!! Because im pretty sure she came up with them on her own :)
Unless of course you cant because its from Cassandra's mind.
Anna wrote: "Okay then, show me evidence that the world of Shadowhunters, The characters names and characteristics, and the story line has been copied!!"You mean except for the fact that they have all sorts of things you have seen before?
So you tell me werewolves that are dangerous, reproduce via bite, are influenced by the moon and are vulnerable to silver is something she made up on her own instead of fitting the vast majority of werewolf fiction over the last 30 years?
Pale vampires who are basically addicted to blood, have etiquette etc. are new and not basically every mainstream vampire since Anne Rice?
Vampires and werewolves being enemies (here because allegedly the demons that created them were enemies) is new to you? Plus she basically ignored and contradicted that later, but that is to be expected from an author who cannot even keep the looks of her characters consistent.
Warriors being a mixture of angels and humans are new to you? Having a secret country that is magically guarded is new to you?
So Valentine being some allegedly dangerous purity guy that wants to overthrow the system he thinks is unworthy and gathering followers is new? So his similarities with Voldemort and Clare's version of Lucius Malfoy from her fanfic is not there? And both Mortmain and Jonathan are not just slightly modified versions of Valentine? Just like Will and Tessa are not just carbon copies of Jace and Clary? Something COHF even points out. And of course Jem isn't just an anglo boy mixed with Chinese stereotypes being pressed into the shape of an anime character even adhering to the personality color coding for such characters. Nooo, they are all totally original characters are totally of her own creation.
Hunters dressed in black and hunting supernatural creatures are of course totally original, just like supernatural creatures being some mixture of human and demon is totally new (cough*Buffy*cough*Angel*cough [in fact Ragnor's look is the same as Lorne's from Angel]). Not to mention that some secret warriors protecting the human world form supernatural is also dim a dozen.
And of course a name like Lucian Greymark is of course absolutely not reminiscent of both Harry Potter and the Underworld movies, just like completely unexplained flying motorbikes.
And sure, warlocks being mixtures of humans and demons is totally new, it is not as if you hadn't that several times before either.
And naturally her "stele" are an example of how she came up with something on her own, I mean it's not as if they are basically just wands whose limitations and rules have never been explained in the least.
And Jace and Clary are of course totally new, I mean we never saw an alleged normal girl who finds out she is not normal but actually very special, and who is actually pretty despite saying she isn't and who is just insert wishfulfillment for the author and often acts like a total dick and cannot even use her Mary Sue powers right. And it's not as if Jace isn't the typical asshole supermodel who always acts like a total dick but of course has "good" reason to act this way and is for unexplained reasons totally in love with said "normal" girl who even changed him oh so much. Plus Jace is just Clare's version of Draco Malfoy, as anyone who read her Draco fanfic knows.
Of course there is the fact that Simon is basically every friend zoned best friend ever, not that he and Clary actually act like best friends. It is not as if Alec is just some stereotypical closeted gay guy who is just there to add tokenism to the series and where the author completely refuses to actually go through with what she herself stated and so the whole alleged tolerance message is ruined from the start and makes the oh so great Magnus come along like a giant douchebag and the receipt for an abusive boyfriend. Btw. he is nothing more than the rich queeny flamboyant anime guy stereotype, you find them all over the place as well.
Of course all her characters that are allegedly not white or not from Anglo cultures are of course just thinly disguised Anglo people, heck even her Hunters speak English and have mostly English names despite their country being in Central Europe. Of course there are all these gender and racial stereotypes her characters have, the stereotypical depiction of Victorian England, the clockwork creatures that are apparently ripped off from Doctor Who, the scenes she clearly stole from Buffy (e.g. Clary suddenly throwing a knife expertly in CoA), the stereotypes she applied to historical figures and settings (which she also mostly gets wrong). These are all things she totally created on her own and are not just things that float around everywhere. Nope; totally original.
And this is only a small percentage of the heap of unoriginality and rip-off that is her work. There is tons more and this isn't even the books' biggest problem, that would be the hollowness of the lip-service she pays to difficult topics and progressive issues. In fact for me personally her treatment of the LGBT topic is more infuriating than that of the Chick tracts, at least those are open in their disgust and unwillingness to actually learn about the subject, unlike these books who claim to be interested in it, but clearly Claire has no true interest in the topic.
I could go on and on about this and the topic of how unoriginal these books are, but this is long enough as it is.
Not to mention that this is just another example of a critic of her work being able to provide evidence while two defenders are unwilling or unable to do the same and instead demand everyone to defend their stance instead of doing it themselves.
As a matter of fact I never believed you two actually would provide anything because if you wanted/could, you would have done so already. I think it is most likely that you will claim this and that doesn't count or hide behind the "nothing is original" excuse, or just start outright personal attacks.
But hey, maybe I am wrong, maybe you will be an exception and actually provide some evidence to show why you think the way you do. You know, have an actual discussion.
Andre wrote: "Anna wrote: "Okay then, show me evidence that the world of Shadowhunters, The characters names and characteristics, and the story line has been copied!!"You mean except for the fact that they hav..."
Ok. You've supported your claim of the series being "unoriginal" but, You know so much about the story you must be interested. And plus, Cassandra uses elements from other stories and makes them her own. In fact, almost every story out there has gotten their plot from other stories. Most stories aren't exactly original. So, what your trying to say is her story has to be completely original? All the "evidence" you stated are most things that happen in other stories but, Cassandra doesn't exactly copy everything in other plots into her story. Cassandra has morphed other things from other authors into her own to create an incredible story.
Roman wrote: "Andre wrote: "Anna wrote: "Okay then, show me evidence that the world of Shadowhunters, The characters names and characteristics, and the story line has been copied!!"You mean except for the fact..."
Interested about the story? Not in the least. I had simply made a promise to read all the books up to COHF because I had no idea that they would get worse and worse. It stuck in my head because it was the worst reading experience I ever had and because I cannot fathom how such a piece of ripped off, racist, sexist and partially homophobic garbage that throws nothing but lip-service at you is praised for its inclusiveness and storytelling.
But to get to the actual point:
You acted like I predicted, you basically said that all of what I said does not count (btw. I always said "rip-off", it was you who claimed I was claiming copying) and that nothing is original. Aka, you made excuses.
But did you provide any evidence to support your claim that "Cassandra has morphed other things from other authors into her own to create an incredible story?" No you did not, which makes me think that there is nothing to support your claim. I stated why I think the way I do (and I could state way more), you did not and I predicted that you would react this way.
And you want to know something else? When you stated "This is pointless. You have your opinion. I have mine. it's over. " I never believed you. I knew you would be back. And apparently I was right.
I feel like the best part of being an author (speculating) is inspiring others. If I wrote a book, and it engaged emotions in someone, inspired them and drove them toward creating their own work, their own output, I'd be happy with that. So many books pull from many books that came before... Does that make them automatically bad? Hell no. Mortal Instrumenta comes from the Deathly Hallows? Does that mean Deathly Hallows come from His Dark Materials? Do you think Star Wars was the first piece of fiction to introduce a hero that had an evil father and daddy issues?
Daniel wrote: "I feel like the best part of being an author (speculating) is inspiring others. If I wrote a book, and it engaged emotions in someone, inspired them and drove them toward creating their own work, t..."So you saying ripping off is ok?
Plus, I don't know if you noticed, but ripping off is the least of these books' problems.
Andre wrote: "Roman wrote: "Andre wrote: "Anna wrote: "Okay then, show me evidence that the world of Shadowhunters, The characters names and characteristics, and the story line has been copied!!"You mean excep..."
Your just a silly scumbag that wants to troll others. You practically spoiled the book for others and this whole argument is pointless. I say we stop arguing and both go on with our lives, eh?
Roman wrote: "Your just a silly scumbag that wants to troll others. You practically spoiled the book for others and this whole argument is pointless. I say we stop arguing and both go on with our lives, eh? ."
So personal attacks it is now. However the "you spoiled the book for others" was new. Not that I get how that would work since I mentioned not a single plotpoint, but whatever. The fact that you resorted to attacks on me as a person only shows further how unwilling or unable you are to actually provide anything to truly support your claim or actually participate in a discussion. But if you want to like a badly written book and not actually read something that is actually good and actually delivers what it promises, instead of providing lip-service and the same old stereotypes you have seen time and again, well I cannot stop you.
Andre wrote: "Roman wrote: "Your just a silly scumbag that wants to troll others. You practically spoiled the book for others and this whole argument is pointless. I say we stop arguing and both go on with our l..."So, you know what books I read? Who says I haven't read any good books?
Andre wrote: " I think it is most likely that you will claim this and that doesn't count or hide behind the "nothing is original" excuse, or just start outright personal attacks.."After all the dramas, I realized "nothing is original" is lazy authors' license to kill.
As to Clare taking ideas from others authors and making things her own...................Jezz.......I had never found any evidence of that even after crawling through six TMI books and three TID books.
Roman wrote: "So, you know what books I read? Who says I haven't read any good books? "Nobody, I said that if you want to like a badly written book, I cannot stop you. And it is not as if you have any evidence to proof the books by Clare are anything what you claim.
Mizuki wrote: "After all the dramas, I realized "nothing is original" is lazy authors' license to kill.
As to Clare taking ideas from others authors and making things her own...................Jezz.......I had never found any evidence of that even after crawling through six TMI books and three TID books.
"
Tell me about it.
Andre wrote: "Roman wrote: "Andre wrote: "Anna wrote: "Okay then, show me evidence that the world of Shadowhunters, The characters names and characteristics, and the story line has been copied!!"You mean excep..."
Im still a bit confused... how are these books sexist, homophobic, or racist in any way? If anything they are progressive:
There is more than one strong female character that portray women well.
There is also a positive influence for the LGBTQ+ community.
There are more than one races in this series that are positively portrayed.
Anna wrote: "Im still a bit confused... how are these books sexist, homophobic, or racist in any way? If anything they are progressive:There is more than one strong female character that portray women well.
There is also a positive influence for the LGBTQ+ community.
There are more than one races in this series that are positively portrayed. "
Oh really? Women are portrayed well?
Can you give me an example for that? An example where the books actually portray a female character that is more than extra well and don't just tell you that these people are great? Was Clary actually shown strong instead of just told that she is? Can't remember.
Was Tessa? You know the moron who cannot even use her powers well? Or who doesn't even choose between the two boys but actually has no agency in the matter.
Or incompetent Charlotte who makes one obvious mistake after the other, where her failures are blamed on sexism and she only succeeds because the books need a similar forced happy ending as for Maia? You know, Maia, the teenage werewolf who somehow becomes leader of her pack even though by werewolf law she should get nothing from the fight or who despite her complete inexperience in policy matters or leadership skills becomes the representative for the werewolves.
Or is it the maligned Jessamine who basically is way more traumatized than Will is and basically wants the same that Tessa wants but unlike these two assholes Jessamine is maligned for her actions.
What female character in these book ever actually struggled to get what she wanted instead of it being thrown at her?
Oh you think what Clare put in these pages is positive? Is that why I know so many LGBT people among the few who bothered to read this shit that agree with me what garbage that is? You honestly think having your openly LGBT warlock be a superqueer, your gay werewolf basically be a stereotype himself and your closeted teen boy almost maligned for it and also being the stereotype of a closet case who just needs a super queer to come out. And speaking of them, yeah, great idea to pair off your only two queer characters and then have the more experienced one bitch about the fact that the boy he dates for not even 3 months, who according to the books comes from a society where he would face expulsion and disownment (aka loose everything he has and knows) and has zero relationship and romance experience does not realize that he loves Magnus even though Magnus never sad it himself and Magnus basically demands that Alec introduced his homosexual, mixed-race relationship and much older boyfriend with a bad reputation among Shadowhunter to his racist, elitist and homophobic parents, yeah, sure that is such a great idea. But what happened afterwards? They try to ignore Magnus, there are basically no consequences from anywhere and in the end everything is hunky dory, aka Cassandra Clare dared to introduce such topics and could not be bothered to actually follow through with what she herself threw into the books. In fact coming out in the open with such a relationship in such a society would most likely make everything even worse for both of them!!! And if that wasn't enough Clare has in Magnus some bisexual fashion obsessed drama queen who constantly sleeps around, basically is only into two types of guys (Will and Jace) and is so self-centered that he assumes Alec ditched him right away, did barely care at all for Alec's comfort during their first date (despite knowing his mental state), dragged him into a bar where he would be hated and feared, tried to chicken out of the date, had these totally bullshit scenes in the subway station and when Alec falls down the stairs in the end Magnus does not even bother to make sure he is ok and just looks out of the window and instead of worrying whether Alec could have broken some bones he worries whether Alec will break his heart! And if this garbage wasn't enough, this whiner baby, and by extension lots of fans, bitches and moans about the fact that Alec visits Camille and for a few seconds considers to take Magnus' immortality away, even though his refusal to tell Alec anything about his past (after basically 6 months of relationship) is basically to blame for all of that as well, and since he is allegedly the older and experienced one he also bears the greater fault here, but no, Alec is the sole one to blame. That is the receipt for an abusive relationship and just in case I wasn't clear: Magnus would be the abuser! And afterwards Clare acts as if Alec's thinking about Magnus's immortality wasn't a perfectly valid reason for a break-up (not that she would ever consider Magnus to blame for anything), those two are oh so right for each other and Camille is to blame for all (aka she is the stereotype of the bad bad straight woman standing in the way of the gay relationship), so even here Clare refused to follow through with anything. But what can you expect from a person who cannot even keep hair, skin color and age of her oh so important characters consistent.
You see here we come to this "there are more than one races in this series" thing:
Not only is the Maia the only one whose look stayed consistent (her brother, Raphael and Magnus changed skin color and Raphael also changed apparent age, plus Jem had 2-3 hair color changes after he was cured), but what she put on the pages there is reeking of stereotypes and tokenism.
Apart from what I already stated about Magnus, his alleged "Batavian" background is basically non-existent, his alleged "otherness" is never a problem and considered that she claimed he looks like Godfrey Gao, his appearance should have brought him lots of problems in 1920s New York City.
Then there is Maia, the biracial teen girl from an abusive household, an abusive relationship who gets back with guy who ruined her live, had parents who favored her light-skinned brother and everything she gets is basically not because of her but because the plot says so.
Of course we have the walking talking Latino stereotype that is Raphael whose random Spanish phrases don't even make sense.
At last but really not least: Jem. The anglo boy with some Chinese stereotypes whose is basically a major plot device in the shape of an anime character. Not only is he allegedly a main character and yet in the whole of TID has only 2 POV scenes while even Magnus and the Lightwoods have more, whose dying is fetishized, who constantly abuses himself to cheer up Will, who acts even as a 12 year old how no traumatized kid (or no kid period) ever would, who is constantly exoticized an dehumanized and is basically only there to show us how great Will is and so there can be a forced love triangle, which isn't really one since it is clear that Tessa prefers Will.
And not to mention that all of her "characters of color" who appeared up to COHF and are more than extra, are all part white. The only possible exception is Raphael and how he is described he could as well be white.
In case you didn't know already: Inclusion is not necessarily good thing.
Also Clare has a typical "white vs. non-white" thinking as evidenced e.g. by Magnus's comment on how great it was to be in Black Harlem where not everyone is white, even though someone of Dutch and Indonesian background from the 17th century would feel way more alien among African Americans and probably would consider them racially inferior.
Anna wrote: "Andre wrote: "Roman wrote: "Andre wrote: "Anna wrote: "Okay then, show me evidence that the world of Shadowhunters, The characters names and characteristics, and the story line has been copied!!"..."
Women are portrayed well:
The claim that Clary is a strong female character mostly is based on her Mary Sue super power, not her strong will or personality.
In TID, Charlotte did a shitty job at being the leader of the London's Shadowhunters, so we don't have a strong female leader in the series.
In TID, Tessa constantly needs to be rescued by male characters despite of her Mary Sue super power.
I mostly dislike how Jem is constructed as a half Anglo, half Chinese mixed blood character, he is so unrealistic to a point of looking like an anime character instead of a realistic one.
The LGTB issues:
It has been stated in the first few books of TMI that the Shadowhunter community is quite close-minded about LGTB, but somehow in City of Heavenly Fire, the Shadowhunters are cool with a pair of lesbians among their rank. It honestly doesn't look very realistic.
Mizuki wrote: "It has been stated in the first few books of TMI that the Shadowhunter community is quite close-minded about LGTB, but somehow in City of Heavenly Fire, the Shadowhunters are cool with a pair of lesbians among their rank. It honestly doesn't look very realistic. "There is even more as in the Shadowhunter Codex it was suddenly claimed that gay marriage was always legal in Idris. And if an author is that uninterested in having a positive portrayal and at the same time presents so many stereotypes I think it is pretty safe to say that she doesn't really care.
Andre wrote: "There is even more as in the Shadowhunter Codex it was suddenly claimed that gay marriage was always legal in Idris.."...what the...?
Mizuki wrote: "...what the...? "Maybe not always but the book states:
Same-Sex marriage recognized in Idris, legal for Shadowhunters in countries where it is allowed.
Which not only is odd considered what she stated before regarding same sex relationships but also regarding the contact Shadowhunters have with "mundanes." They usually give no shit about laws not their own and here they suddenly recognize same sex marriage? Thatis pure pandering to fans if you ask me.
Andre wrote: "Mizuki wrote: "...what the...? "Maybe not always but the book states:
Same-Sex marriage recognized in Idris, legal for Shadowhunters in countries where it is allowed.
Which not only is odd consi..."
Just because it is legal does not mean that it was not frowned upon. Its legal to do a lot of things that are looked at negativly.
Anna wrote: "Just because it is legal does not mean that it was not frowned upon. Its legal to do a lot of things that are looked at negativly. "They have a culture based on Abrahamic religion, they call upon the power of angels, they have angel blood and Clare stated herself in CoB that Alec would face disownment and expulsion if the parents knew he was gay. What on earth makes you think people like that would accept laws by people they look down upon and from their perspective would legalize something they are completely against?
Andre wrote: "Anna wrote: "Just because it is legal does not mean that it was not frowned upon. Its legal to do a lot of things that are looked at negativly. "They have a culture based on Abrahamic religion, t..."
I think that it may be a bit like our world. LGBTQIA marriage is legal in a lot of the United States, yet some people or groups of people will 'disown' you if you are LGBTQ (Such as my family). So it very well may have been that the Shadowhunters made it legal but Alec only focused on the people that would not like him being gay.
Anna wrote: "I think that it may be a bit like our world. LGBTQIA marriage is legal in a lot of the United States, yet some people or groups of people will 'disown' you if you are LGBTQ (Such as my family). So it very well may have been that the Shadowhunters made it legal but Alec only focused on the people that would not like him being gay. "
Ok.... let's do this step by step:
Why is this marriage now legal in the USA?
Anna wrote: " So it very well may have been that the Shadowhunters made it legal but Alec only focused on the people that would not like him being gay. "I have never heard about those LGBT Shadowhunters fighting for their rights to marriage in any of the 9 books I'd read through.
PS: same sex marriage is now legal in (parts of) the USA because people fought for the laws to be changed, there have even been legal battles, public voting and stuff. And if there had been such a social movement within the SH society for the LGBT Shadowhunters to gain rights to same sex marriage, then it should have been mentioned in one of the SH books.
Mizuki wrote: "I have never heard about those LGBT Shadowhunters fighting for their rights to marriage in any of the 9 books I'd read through."And none in the other material. In fact for same-sex marriage to exist the Hunters would need at least one organization fighting for it, but there was nothing. The only thing we got was "the younger ones don't mind it so much", which clearly is a line from someone who has no idea how greater tolerance for same sex couples came about.
Andre wrote: "The only thing we got was "the younger ones don't mind it so much", which clearly is a line from someone who has no idea how greater tolerance for same sex couples came about. ."Damn right.
Andre wrote: "Mizuki wrote: "I have never heard about those LGBT Shadowhunters fighting for their rights to marriage in any of the 9 books I'd read through."And none in the other material. In fact for same-sex..."
I think the reason we don't hear from the groups that are fighting for LGBTQ marriage is because Clare wanted to emphasize the fact that it wouldn't be a good thing for Alec. (Does that make sense?)
Anna wrote: "I think the reason we don't hear from the groups that are fighting for LGBTQ marriage is because Clare wanted to emphasize the fact that it wouldn't be a good thing for Alec. (Does that make sense?) "If he faces expulsion and disownment, why not seek out an existing support group?
Not to mention, that later on Clare retconned it by claiming all the Clave does is ignoring it's gay members and none of the characters ever faces worse consequences than dirty looks or annoyance. Even with her "beloved" Magnus Clare had no actual homophobia or LGBT support groups shown. So I do not think that Clare really thought/thinks the way you do. I think she only did it to score points.
Anna wrote: "I think the reason we don't hear from the groups that are fighting for LGBTQ marriage is because Clare wanted to emphasize the fact that it wouldn't be a good thing for Alec. .."an existing group that fighting for LGBT rights is not a good thing for Alec? Why, just why.
rachel nicole wrote: "So I'll come right out and say that I hated this book. I didn't even bother with the others because, uhm, there's really no point. What I don't understand is how people can really enjoy this book w..."First of all, the Harry Potter series isn't the first to have evil things come in threes, if that's what you meant, and before Star Wars, there were other franchises in which the villain is related to the main character. Of course there was sexism. Name one book that didn't have at least the smallest bit of sexism. Jace isn't a stereotype if that's what you were trying to say. If you think he is, then what does that make Harry? Not that Harry isn't great.
S.L.J. wrote: "I forget who said it but they say that there are only 7 stories in the whole world and that all other stories are simply variations of those original 7.1.man against man
2.man against nature
3...."
I love that and really, I think that's the ultimate truth when it comes to stories.
Suzevelyn wrote: "First of all, the Harry Potter series isn't the first to have evil things come in threes, if that's what you meant, and before Star Wars, there were other franchises in which the villain is related to the main character. ..."So? How is this relevant? You seem to be saying that the book's flaws are ok because other books have flaws as well.
And in what way is Jace not a stereotype?
Suzevelyn wrote: "S.L.J. wrote: "I forget who said it but they say that there are only 7 stories in the whole world and that all other stories are simply variations of those original 7.1.man against man
2.man aga..."
Here we go again, the same old same old 'there is nothing original under the sun' arguement. What an insult to the authors who work hard to come up with his/her own idea and/or creating new stuff out of old materials.
Andre wrote: "Suzevelyn wrote: "First of all, the Harry Potter series isn't the first to have evil things come in threes, if that's what you meant, and before Star Wars, there were other franchises in which the ..."Well, if you had read the review in the first place, you would know that Rachel Nichole had been accusing it of copying other series and franchises. What I'm saying is that that this book is similar to other books isn't a flaw whatsoever. Just because it's similar to the Harry Potter series and Star Wars doesn't mean it copied either.
And my response to what you're saying about Jace is in what way is he a stereotype?
Mizuki wrote: "Suzevelyn wrote: "S.L.J. wrote: "I forget who said it but they say that there are only 7 stories in the whole world and that all other stories are simply variations of those original 7.1.man agai..."
Honestly, I wasn't trying to say that authors' works or unoriginal and I don't think that anyone else was trying to say that. It's just that the main conflict in all stories can all be put in those 7 categories.
Suzevelyn wrote: "And my response to what you're saying about Jace is in what way is he a stereotype?"He is a described as totally good-looking, every girl wants him (except for the token lesbian), he acts totally rude towards Clary, which is allegedly totally sexy, in fact he acts like a total asshole all the time and we are supposed to forgive him for that because of his past or simply because he is hot. Of course there are other things: he is just such a totally good shadowhunter (even though he is an idiot by real-life standards), never knows when to shut up, everyone has to deal with the shit he himself caused and insults and makes fun of others for no reason and yet we are supposed to think he is the good guy.
His past is more horrible and tragic then any of the other characters introduced in City of Bones, none of whom saw who their father or someone who was like their father die like Jace did. And though we like to tell ourselves that one's appearance doesn't affect our opinion of them in any way that's significant, that obviously isn't true in all cases, so I think was Clare justified in expecting most people not to hate Jace. Of course, none of this really excuses Jace for his rude and thoughtless behavior, but I think that it's a start.Aside from that matter, everything else you said was accurate, except if we're going by your explanation of why he'd be a stereotype, wouldn't you say he's more of a cliche?
Spider the Doof Warrior wrote: "https://fanlore.org/wiki/The_Cassandr...She doesn't have an original bone in her body. At least other people put themselves into things. She's taken stuff verbatim from ot..."
Actually, if you remember correctly, that was the Draco trilogy, not City of Bones. She doesn't have an excuse for taking other authors' words verbatim, but if there's proof that she did that with City of Bones, I'd like to see it. Honestly, I think most people who have heard of the Draco trilogy are biased against Clare when it comes to other works she's created.
Suzevelyn wrote: "His past is more horrible and tragic then any of the other characters introduced in City of Bones, none of whom saw who their father or someone who was like their father die like Jace did. And thou..."There are not many differences between between the concepts of stereotype and cliche, however cliche's at least can be truism and the like, while stereotypes are usually not. Jace acts like a jackass even long after the books stop mentioning Valentine in any way except in relation to Clary and Jonathan, And it's not as if he did anything to change that behavior until Clary came up in fact the guy has tons of completely unrealistic elements in his behavior and story. So yeah, he is still a stereotype.
Suzevelyn wrote: "What I'm saying is that that this book is similar to other books isn't a flaw whatsoever. Just because it's similar to the Harry Potter series and Star Wars doesn't mean it copied either. well, similarities with other novels isn't a flaws when those similarities are few in number instead of popping up everywhere in the story to smirk at me right in my face throughout the reading progress.
And my response to what you're saying about Jace is in what way is he a stereotype? "
Oh, just don't get me started. I personally don't care much for Harry Potter and Stars Wars but at least Harry Potter (the Mr. Special in the story) and Draco (the cocky handsome boy in the story) aren't as stereotyped as Jace in anyway. Plus if you happened to have read through a handful of shojo manga, you would easily find stereotyped male characters like Jace everywhere in those stories (especially the badly written ones): handsome, brooding, with a dark past, good at everything he dose, rude with everyone, treats everyone like dirt but still everyone loves him anyway and the main girl is drooling all over him because he is so, so hot. (Basically Clary loves Jace is only because of his hot body, case closed )
Mizuki wrote: "Anna wrote: "I think the reason we don't hear from the groups that are fighting for LGBTQ marriage is because Clare wanted to emphasize the fact that it wouldn't be a good thing for Alec. .."an e..."
What I meant was that Cassandra used only the bad things to make the plot more interesting/dangerous (I don't know if that is the right word to use... but hopefully you understand what I am trying to say.)
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Also those who do not have assholy male love interests too. bleck. Enough of those.