City of Copying Other Great Works (Mortal Instruments #Too Many)

[Suzi!!!]

Andre wrote: "Suzevelyn wrote: "His past is more horrible and tragic then any of the other characters introduced in City of Bones, none of whom saw who their father or someone who was like their father die like ..."

Could you be a bit more specific about what "completely unrealistic elements in his behavior and story" you're talking about?

[Andre]

Suzevelyn wrote: "Could you be a bit more specific about what "completely unrealistic elements in his behavior and story" you're talking about? "

For instance that according to Isabelle he was "half-dead" when Clary came along and then drastically changed, he acts extremely rude without any regard to private sphere and yet everyone wants him, not to mention that the way he is written, it is as if the Lightwoods never took him in or had any impact at all on him. According to CoA he was the same guy at age 11 (or 12) that he was later. Of course there is the entire description of his body, his tragic backstory that is supposed to excuse his behavior etc. etc.

[Suzi!!!]

The Lightwoods may not have had any impact on him that was noticeable from just observing him. It might not have showed, who are we to say that Jace wasn't impacted by the Lightwoods on the inside. His behavior might not have drastically changed but there is reason to believe that Jace's thoughts and outlook on life were slightly altered after a while with the Lightwoods.

And you're right that Jace is extremely rude and brazen at times, but that everyone wants him despite his behavior, I feel like that actually tells you about the other characters and not much Jace himself.

[Andre]

1) Where is your evidence that he changed?

2) So it says something about the others... so what? The question was whether Jace is a stereotype.

[Mizuki]

Suzevelyn wrote: "The Lightwoods may not have had any impact on him that was noticeable from just observing him. It might not have showed, who are we to say that Jace wasn't impacted by the Lightwoods on the inside...."

In City of Heavenly Fire, Jace confesses that Clary is the person who changes him for the better. So, essentially it is a girl whom Jace has known for about a few months time who 'changes' him, not the Lightwoods, who took him in and treated him as one of their own for years. I think it speaks volumes of how Jace is like as a person. It also speaks volumes of how much Jace cares for the Lightwoods.

PS: the same also goes to Will, a Jace version 2.0, as well. in Clockwork Princess, Will confesses he wants to be a better person after Tessa came along and he doesn't want Tessa's feeling to be hurt. So essentially Will hasn't cared about Henry, Charlotte and Jem's feeling to be hurt. I also think it speaks volumes of how Will is as a person, it also speaks volumes of how much he cares for Henry and Charlotte, the only two adults who bothered to raise him, and Jem, whom Will claims is like a brother to him.

PSS: according to what I'd read from City of Lost Souls, City of Fallen Angels and City of Heavenly Fire, Clary only wants Jace for his handsome face and hot body. I also think it speaks volumes of what Clary is like as a person.

[Suzi!!!]

Andre wrote: "1) Where is your evidence that he changed?

2) So it says something about the others... so what? The question was whether Jace is a stereotype."

Well, we know from City of Glass that before the Lightwoods, Jace never really formed any attachments to anyone because Valentine discouraged it. However, when he meets the Lightwoods, it shows that he becomes attached to them. He became parabatai with Alec which shows that he learns to care for someone other than himself and shows affection towards Max and Izzy. It might sound cheesy, but his time spent with the Lightwoods is what really taught him how to love and how to care for others.

And I still don't think stereotype is the right word for him. The characteristics he has that you make him a stereotype can easily be blamed on his upbringing. It's a likely possibility that Clary and the others also saw that his negative attitude wasn't completely his fault because he was raised from a young age by someone who also had a negative attitude. Though Valentine can't have treated Jace too well, Jace, being the young child he was, must have looked up to Valentine and wanted to be just like him. The Lightwoods and Clary, knowing his past, all treat him like a decently well-mannered person because they know his obnoxious behavior cannot all be blamed on him alone.

[Andre]

Suzevelyn wrote: "It might sound cheesy, but his time spent with the Lightwoods is what really taught him how to love and how to care for others."

Is that why he apparently cares more for Clary than any of them? Is that why he is clearly dominating Alec and Isabelle?
You know, I start to assume that you are merely projecting things into the book because that is the only way it makes sense what is told, and that by ignoring what was shown.

Suzevelyn wrote: "And I still don't think stereotype is the right word for him. The characteristics he has that you make him a stereotype can easily be blamed on his upbringing. It's a likely possibility that Clary and ..."

Small problem: That does not answer the question whether he is or isn't a stereotype in the least. Whether or not a character is a stereotype has nothing to do with any in-book or out-book explanations for said character's behavior. All you do is saying that he is not a stereotype and then come up with some stuff that has nothing to do with the topic. The definitions of "stereotype" are roughly speaking as follows:
"a conventional or formulaic conception or image"
"treat or classify according to a mental stereotype"

You seem to claim that Jace does not fit the first definition, but you never actually say why. Sure you probably think you do, but by your logic Johnny Deep's depiction of Tonto in Lone Ranger was not a stereotype because the movie said that Tonto was crazy or to stick with "Natives", by your logic the Twilight Quileute werewolves are not stereotypically savage Indians because of the werewolf excuse.

It already starts with his looks. Is he not muscular/sculptured with specific facial features, likened to art, described as a bad boy, white and totally fit? Guys like that are dime a dozent in YA literature of the West. And of course there is all the things Mizuki wrote about his behavior and story. All things you see and read about over and over. So, based on what does what you write disprove that he is a stereotype?

[Suzi!!!]

Mizuki wrote: "Suzevelyn wrote: "The Lightwoods may not have had any impact on him that was noticeable from just observing him. It might not have showed, who are we to say that Jace wasn't impacted by the Lightwo..."

In City of Heavenly Fire, just because Jace credits Clary the most for his drastic character change doesn't mean that Clary actually is the one who changed him most. From what I've read of the series, Jace has a tendency to overlook others, but it is that really even unusual. Everyone overlooks people whom they should thank at one point or another in their life. So I don't really think that he overlooked someone necessarily says anything about him as a person more than it says about us as people. And his overlooking of the Lightwoods doesn't inescapably undermine his love for them.

Also, let's keep Will out of this. I am not defending him, nor am I defending Clary.

[Mizuki]

Suzevelyn wrote: "In City of Heavenly Fire, just because Jace credits Clary the most for his drastic character change doesn't mean that Clary actually is the one who changed him most. From what I've read of the series, Jace has a tendency to overlook others,."

No, Jace's behavior isn't merely 'overlooking other people', he has been self centered throughout City of Bones and City of Ashes (one of the classical examples is how he picks up a fight with a bunch of werewolves only because he is in a bad mood). Only in City of Glass, he starts to show a bit more willingness to help other people when there is a war going on. Not to mention, Jace just has to make a lame joke right after Max's funeral when Izzy and Alec are clearly grieving. When I read this part I was like: 'Come on, gimme a break! How inconsiderate can he get?'

The only reason I brought up Will and Clary is because examples like them (characters behaving badly but Clare still expects us to love them or think them as the good guys) are everywhere in the whole series.

[Suzi!!!]

Mizuki wrote: "Suzevelyn wrote: "In City of Heavenly Fire, just because Jace credits Clary the most for his drastic character change doesn't mean that Clary actually is the one who changed him most. From what I'v..."

Where in my comment did I say that Jace's behavior is merely overlooking other people? I said that that one moment in CoHF and many others in which Jace credits mainly Clary for his change is due to overlooking people. That scene in City of Ashes at Hunter's Moon is probably the only thing I agree with you about. He did stupidly pick a fight only because of his "bad mood," but the average cocky teenage boy would probably do the same if he thought it was a fight that he had a decent chance of winning. I think that's one way that Clare makes Jace relatable or at least somewhat realistic.

Also, I know that Clare mentioned several times that Jace is great with words and expressing himself, but nowhere does she state that Jace is completely incapable of social awkwardness. Jace shows tenderness to Max a couple of times before Max's death, which shows that Jace cares for him, but he must've felt out of place grieving Max with the Lightwoods. It makes sense that he wouldn't really know what to say and would say the wrong thing-- because that's just Jace sometimes-- instead of keeping quiet after Max's death.

[Andre]

Suzevelyn wrote: "Mizuki wrote: "Suzevelyn wrote: "In City of Heavenly Fire, just because Jace credits Clary the most for his drastic character change doesn't mean that Clary actually is the one who changed him most..."

Based on what? What are you basing this on?

[Mizuki]

Suzevelyn wrote: "Where in my comment did I say that Jace's behavior is merely overlooking other people? "

Oh. You just basically said Jace's behavior is what everyone else, *everyone* would do and nothing special: Everyone overlooks people whom they should thank at one point or another in their life.

You make it sound like Jace's behavior is no big deal, you make it sound like what he had done is some slight error that *everyone* would make. Believe me, many sensible people wouldn't do half the shits Jace has subjected the Lightwoods and many others (e.g. those werewolves who got beat for no reason) to.

And it surprises me Jace hasn't been bothered to thank the Lightwoods for what they had done for him *for years*, yet he credited his betterment to Clary, whom he has just come to know for like....how long? A few months? Half a year? Less than a year?

but the average cocky teenage boy would probably do the same if he thought it was a fight that he had a decent chance of winning.

Oh, Jace is a Shadowhunter, and he is one of the people who holds power to 'discipline' the Downworlders, so in this case Jace isn't a mere cocky teenager picking up a fight among other teenagers, instead he is abusing his status and power, using those werewolves as his punch bags, what a terrible person. But of course Jace would never be called out by Clare and his fans.

It makes sense that he wouldn't really know what to say and would say the wrong thing-- because that's just Jace sometimes-- instead of keeping quiet after Max's death.

Most of what you had said in this sentence is your own conjunction on what Jace is supposed to be feeling at Max's funeral. I would only comment on one thing: If Jace really didn't know what to say after Max's death. Then don't say a word, offering up his shoulders for Lizzy or Alec to cry on. But no, Jace just has to open his mouth and say a lame joke when the Lightwoods are grieving. If I had a 'brother' like this, I am sure I don't need any enemy.