Sheila Wray Gregoire's Blog, page 14
February 1, 2022
5 Ways Hierarchy in Marriage Hurts Men, Too
We know that it can lead to problems for women (as we talked about yesterday), but what if it can hurt men too?
On Tuesdays I don’t do huge posts, but several amazing comments along these lines were left yesterday across social media and the blog, and I wanted to highlight a few of them. (And there were many, many awesome comments! I just found these ones that matched this theme!).
1. Having to make all the decisions puts undue pressure on men!
Puts too much pressure on him. (My husband says.)
LoriI was a wife who was happy to submit to my husband, who never abused the authority I perceived him to have. My life was pretty easy – I didn’t have to think too much about big decisions, I trusted my husband completely, and if it turned out badly I was off the hook. Our relationship was great and easy. Then I started reexamining gender hierarchy because my husband didn’t buy it. While it was the fabric of my upbringing, it was not part of his. I remember when I heard God gently challenging me that I needed to step up and be a full person and partner in my marriage. I was putting a burden on my husband that was not fair or right. I didn’t need to seek God myself in more than a cursory way when we faced a crossroads. It was harder to be a fully-functioning partner, but I started to step up. Gender hierarchy can cause a women to be squashed but it also puts an unreasonable and possibly crippling burden of responsibility on men that I don’t believe is part of Jesus’ “easy and light yoke”.
Julianna 2. When submission means “he decides always”, then you don’t develop good relationship skills
This faulty perspective contributes to a lack of problem-solving skills as well as conflict resolution skills: the husband pulls out the “final say” card and the wife pulls out the “submit” card; neither is invited or obligated to have prayed, listened, valued, respected, negotiated, navigated, collaborated, prayed, waited, prayed, submitted to each other as unto the Lord, searched for options, etc.
Elizabeth G.I feel like the toxic teaching of “the man makes the decisions” was not only set up to allow men to have their way all the time, but to shield them the expectation of appropriate communication skills. If all man is expected to do is to not talk and get his way all the time, how can this NOT be abusive at some level? Even for a “good guy”, a system that removes any iron sharpening iron, just feeds narcissism.
If someone had told me that the ability to calmly and kindly make decisions together was the first thing I should look for in a man, I would have avoided abuse.
Girls who were raised without a voice dovetail perfectly into marriages without a voice.
Holly N. 3. When he always decides, you both miss out on the blessings of teamwork
We don’t believe we are being led by God if we can’t come to a mutual and comfortable compromise or agreement, even if there’s no abuse. We don’t believe God would have one of us force the other into an uncomfortable or unfair position, that’s not love. So if we can’t agree on a decision together then we aren’t seeking Jesus but instead ourselves.
We are a team and a team grows and is healthy when operating as a team not when one person calls the shots for the other like a parent, owner or dictator.
We both need to learn how to be considerate of each other’s feelings and learn to work together and that only happens when we both stop to work together on the big and small stuff and my husband doesn’t need that burden himself, talk about anxiety.
Lydia N.My husband and I used to adhere to the idea of men being the head of the house/submission thing. During that time we had a big financial decision to make and we were not in agreement. My husband is not good with finances and he struggles with “seeing the bigger picture”. I was counseled by an older woman in my church to “just submit and if it doesn’t turn out well, then that’s on his head with God and not yours”. I felt, and still do, this is just a means of getting out of any adult responsibilities and being able to blame shift if things don’t work out as hoped for in some cases. I took her advise, things went south financially (we lost our home), I blamed my husband and then had to do the work of realizing that’s not a healthy way to have a partnership nor to slough off my own responsibilities. We now have a more balanced, “strength based” marriage. But I don’t think it’s always a “personality difference” if someone doesn’t want to make the big or little decisions.
Melanie 4. If the husband makes decisions alone, you miss out on spiritual growth and blessingsOne amazing thing often can happen if BOTH spouses are seeking Jesus for direction – lot of times they both get the SAME direction! Like those you’re already on the same page before you even talk about it. It is very affirming when that happens. I feel same when I’m studying and then the pastor preaches what I was discovering in my studies. You miss out on those things if you don’t take responsibility for your own spiritual walk and delegate it to others.
Timif a wife just sits around and waits for her husband to tell her what God says, she misses out on the opportunity to develop her own faith. Last year, we were considering a major decision that we both needed to 100% agree on. Praying over it, I had one question outstanding, so I asked the Lord to answer that question for me. My husband, who had also been praying over our decision shared something which he felt God was saying to him but which didn’t make any sense to him – the message was the answer to MY question!
If I’d just sat around waiting for God to speak to my husband only, we would BOTH have missed out on something which encouraged us that we were making the right choice. As it was, each of us was given a ‘piece’ of the puzzle, and it was only by praying & working together that we got the right answer!
Anon 5. Having him decide alone weakens your family in the long run
Husband centered marriage raises sons who subconsciously believe they are the center as well and shows daughters men are the center. The result of this I have seen first hand and it is unhealthy and not Jesus.
AlyssaAs a pastor and counselor, I’ve found while this (submit to your husband only) *can* lead to happy marriages, when a woman is widowed or kids grow up, they find themselves struggling, without identity, and without the ability to make good decisions since they haven’t had to flex that muscle ever. The same though is true of passive men who relied on women to take care of everything, as widows they flounder and get married quickly just to have another someone care for them. In both cases while it may work, it causes dysfunction later. It leaves them less a person. And the best marriage strategies should leave the whole person intact, because that’s the mystery of it…..two become one without losing themselves.
Mutual submission is the way. Both partners learning to submit when needed, both learning to make decisions when needed. This is the way.
Alex M. There simply aren’t upsides to having a husband decide alone if you’re looking for good relationship skills, spiritual growth, teamwork, and maturity.But there are so many upsides if you do things together, valuing each other, and seeking God’s will together.
Jesus wouldn’t tell us to do something that hurts us. And in our research for The Great Sex Rescue, when we surveyed 20,000 women, we found that when a husband makes decisions alone, even if he consults with his wife, the chance of divorce increases 7.4 times. And there are so many other bad outcomes–when she feels her opinions don’t matter as much, orgasm rates fall; marital satisfaction falls; it’s all just one big mess.
Check out chapter 2 in The Great Sex Rescue for more on this. But also remember: Jesus seeks our good. He would not have asked us to do marriage in a way that hurts us. And His ultimate aim is that we all seek after Him.
The Great Sex RescueChanging the conversation about sex & marriage in the evangelical church.
What if you're NOT the problem with your sex life?What if the things that you've been taught have messed things up--and what if there's a way to escape these messages?
Welcome to the Great Sex Rescue. Order Now! A Jesus-centered marriage, not a husband-centered marriage. That’s what He wants.And that’s a good place to end our putting Christ back in Christian marriage series. Tune in tomorrow as we start our “Number of the Day” series, where I share one piece of super interesting research a day, leading up to the release of The Good Guy’s Guide to Great Sex and the totally revamped Good Girl’s Guide to Great Sex!
What do you think? Is there a #6 I should add about how hierarchy hurts men too? Let’s talk in the comments!
Putting Christ Back in Christian Marriage SeriesPutting Christ Back in Christian Marriage Introductory Podcast6 Ways Christian Marriage Advice Leaves Christ OutWhy There's More to Christian Marriage Than Just 5 PassagesDoes a "Christian" Marriage Need to Suffer to Grow?Do We Need to Jump out of the Boiling Water? How Advice for Christian Men Got So Off Track (from Keith)On Deconstructing our Faith--and Reconstructing by Holding on to what Jesus has said (from Keith)Is it So Wrong to Want to Submit to My Husband?How Hierarchy in Marriage Can Hurt Husbands TooPlus please see my submission series!
Sheila Wray Gregoire Founder of To Love, Honor and Vacuum
Sheila is determined to help Christians find BIBLICAL, HEALTHY, EVIDENCE-BASED help for their marriage. And in doing so, she's turning the evangelical world on its head, challenging many of the toxic teachings, especially in her newest book The Great Sex Rescue. She’s an award-winning author of 8 books and a sought-after speaker. With her humorous, no-nonsense approach, Sheila works with her husband Keith and daughter Rebecca to create podcasts and courses to help couples find true intimacy. Plus she knits. All the time. ENTJ, straight 8 FacebookTwitter Related Posts Keith’s Manifesto: Guys, It’s Time to Jump Out of the Boiling WaterJan 26, 2022 | 70 Comments
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The post 5 Ways Hierarchy in Marriage Hurts Men, Too appeared first on To Love, Honor and Vacuum.
January 28, 2022
Keith’s Views on Deconstructing the Faith–and Reconstructing Something Healthy
Sheila here!
My husband Keith’s manifesto on Wednesday about how the evangelical church has treated women went quite big, and he has one more thing he’d like to say.
This all fits well in what we’re talking about this month about putting the “Christ” back in “Christian marriage!”
I have one more thing I want to say as we wrap up our series on Monday, but I’m going to let Keith have ALMOST the last word. 🙂
Sheila Wray Gregoire Deconstruction DefinitionTo those who may not know, deconstruction refers to a movement that is growing in the evangelical church right now to question the beliefs that you were brought up with to try to get to the truth. Which beliefs are true essentials of the faith? And which are merely cultural trappings that may have hurt us?
Think of it as a house inspector pulling a moldy or rotten house apart to get to the still healthy foundation. What is it that we’re actually built on? Is anything that was built on top of the foundation rotten? What is healthy?
Deconstruction is often prompted by major doubts about the church, mostly because of what appears to be very unChristlike behaviour on the part of its proponents.
Some people deconstruct and leave the faith altogether, but many are just trying to find their way to a healthier faith that is more consistent with the Jesus we know.
I have been watching the backlash against deconstruction that is going on in the evangelical church these days with increasing consternation.At first it was funny. Matt Chandler talking about how people were doing it just because it was “sexy” has resulted in some excellent memes.
But recently, there has been a mad rush to decry it from multiple organizations including The Gospel Coalition (TGC), The Council of Biblical Manhood & Womanhood (CBMW), Desiring God – basically every bastion of the Evangelical Industrial Complex has chimed in. The message is all the same: “Watch out for deconstruction! Avoid this perilous new heresy!”
I read the recent Desiring God post about deconstruction. It is an impassioned plea not to leave the faith when you have doubts, which is admirable. But as an apology for “Why I am not deconstructing”, it fails because it is based upon the same fundamental misunderstanding that anti-deconstructionists all have: they equate deconstruction with wanting to leave Jesus. “The Church isn’t perfect, but don’t leave Jesus,” they say.
As someone who considers himself to be firmly in the deconstruction camp, I can assure you, we are not trying to leave Jesus.We are just having a hard time with the trappings that you have surrounded Jesus with.
We are trying desperately to cling to Jesus despite the harmful ideas that the evangelical church has been attaching to Jesus and then calling non-negotiable. And if every time we try to remove those trappings and get to the heart of what Jesus intended you say we aren’t really Christian, is it any wonder why sometimes deconstruction does end up with people leaving the faith?
In other words, people who are deconstructing aren’t leaving Jesus; you are pushing them away from Him!
On a personal note, the key issue for me is the way the church has treated women.I recognize other people have different issues (eg. racism), but I will speak here only to this one subject. There was a time when we could have healthy debate and maybe agree to disagree about women’s ordination and what submission looked like in marriage. But now the evangelical zeitgeist has hardened to an overtly misogynistic and hateful view of women. You can deny it all you want, but that doesn’t make it any less true. And if you disagree with what is taught or if you (gasp) promote the opposite idea, that women deserve equal and fair treatment, then you simply “aren’t Biblical”.
A sentinel event for me, was John MacArthur telling Beth Moore to “go home”. When you see someone act like he did and then get treated as a hero rather than a villain, your moral compass can’t help but ask if you are hanging out with the wrong kind of people.
The equal parts derision and vitriol that have been spewed at Moore since she left the SBC has in my opinion deeply underscored this point.
And for those of you who don’t think the evangelical view of women is fundamentally flawed, let me recap 2021 for you.It started with the revelation that Ravi Zacaharias, one of our most respected apologists, a man who we thought to be a man of great integrity, was not only an abuser, but a human trafficker. A man who we all thought knew more about Jesus than anyone else had used hundreds of women over his career for his own sexual fulfillment then discarded them like used playthings, warning them not to tell anyone, lest “the message of the gospel be hindered.”
Then the year ended with not just the conviction of Josh Duggar for possession of child pornography, but a florid and shameful demonstration during his trial of how far people who claim to represent Jesus will go to cover up and justify the abuse of women to protect the reputation of men.
In the middle we saw the release of “The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill”, which documented in scathing detail the actions of Mark Driscoll, a man who called women penis homes among other misogynistic comments. Yet despite all the evidence of how toxic he is, Jimmy Evans of XO marriage and Dave and Ashley Willis of the Naked Marriage podcast continue to support him and give him a platform at their marriage conferences and on their board. And churches keep hiring them for conferences!
So my question is: after seeing all this is, how do we explain people who are NOT deconstructing?The difference between those who are deconstructing and those who are not is whether or not you realize that these men did not arise in a vacuum.People who are deconstructing realize these men are not a few bad apples in an otherwise healthy tree. They see that the tree is rotten. It is self-evident that an organization’s views of women will shape how that organization will treat women.
For anyone with eyes to see, it is clear that the evangelical church desperately needs a healthier view of women.
The obvious answer is to start treating women as equals in every way and giving them a voice, but this is simply not an option to those who refuse to reject “Biblical” manhood and womanhood. Instead, when the evangelical church has been confronted with the fruit of their teaching, when they have been called out on the terrible ways they have treated our sisters in the faith, in every case they have reacted either with callous indifference or doubled down on these clearly flawed and harmful doctrines and just intensified the pain.
The first point in The Gospel Coalition’s critique of deconstruction is to “not throw the baby out with the bath water”. This is a common refrain from anti-deconstructionists. But here’s the thing. If we are talking about the Christian faith, then the “baby” is Christ. It is not the institutional evangelical church. And it is certainly not any particular biblical hermeneutic.
Evangelicals used to believe in tiers.Some things were first tier and you really couldn’t be a Christian if you didn’t believe them (eg. the Trinity). Other things were second tier. They were important enough that denominations felt that if you were going to be a member, you had to agree with their stance (eg. method of baptism). Then there were a whole host of third tier items where even people in the same denomination might disagree. Anything other than first tier issues is not essential to faith.
Unfortunately, most of the people whom I have seen confront deconstruction with the “baby and bath water” argument are clearly being disingenuous. They are not concerned about not throwing out the baby (i.e. Christ) as much as they are clearly interested in keeping their particular part of the bath water. Don’t get me wrong; I don’t think they are being intentionally deceptive most of the time. I think the majority of them have simply lost the ability to tell the difference.
For instance, I find it quite ironic that the Council for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood (CBMW) has now started to post articles critiquing deconstruction. CMBW is an organization which is based upon a third tier “doctrinal distinctive”: the issue of women in leadership in the church and home (well, in their case, keeping women OUT of leadership in the church and home). This organization has been instrumental in moving this issue to the first tier, insisting that if you don’t believe their stance, you clearly don’t believe the Bible. And now they are writing anti-deconstruction arguments. The whole thing is so absolutely “meta”!
Personally I think the “bath water” of patriarchy and misogyny needs to be chucked if the church is going to stay healthy and thrive in the future.Unfortunately, the powers that be in evangelicalism have invested all their energy in making sure that that particular section of the bath water stays part of the deal. As a result, the places within the evangelical community that fully accept women as equals are few and far between.
People who are saying, “I want Jesus, but I don’t want misogyny”, are hard-pressed to find an area within evangelicalism they can call home. When they can’t find a place in the evangelical body where those two aren’t linked, they leave. Then the very ones who fused patriarchy to Jesus despise them for their lack of faith. But decrying someone for leaving after you handed them their coat and showed them the door says more about you than it does about them.
Another point the TGC article makes is that people deconstruct because they have received poor teaching. (Don’t worry, this is it; I’m not going to tackle all four points). It says that instead of deconstructing, we should combat bad teaching with good teaching. I agree. But that’s precisely the problem. The evangelical establishment is refusing to give good teaching. Worse, they “call evil good and good evil” (Isaiah 5:20). just look at their reaction to Sheila’s survey of 20,000 women for The Great Sex Rescue showing definitively that their view of women and sex hurts marriages and makes sex worse for couples. They have ignored the evidence and shot the messenger!
The Great Sex RescueChanging the conversation about sex & marriage in the evangelical church. What if you're NOT the problem with your sex life?What if the things that you've been taught have messed things up--and what if there's a way to escape these messages?
Welcome to the Great Sex Rescue. Order Now! The evidence is now overwhelming that a hierarchical view of the genders causes harm of every sort to women up to and including physical and sexual abuse.Given that our Saviour said “a good tree cannot bear bad fruit”, this teaching should have been gone a long time ago. Instead, they cling to it and preach “patriarchy protects women and those instances of abuse are exceptions”.
I disagree, but if it were true, then my question is this: “Where were the guardians of the true version of this teaching when Beth Moore was being verbally assaulted on her way out the SBC door?” “Where were they when Owen Strachan was tweeting out sympathy for Ravi Zacahrias while that scandal was unfolding?”
If God has a perfect plan where men are in charge for the good of women, where is the self-policing? Where is this famous protection that patriarchy provides? No, we all see these arguments for what they really are: men trying to hold on to power by whatever means possible and getting angry at those who are divesting them of that power.
Let me finish on a note of encouragement.When I observe the monolithic juggernaut that is the evangelical establishment just getting around to critiquing deconstruction, I have to admit I laugh a little, given that many of us are now eager to get on to the next phase: “reconstruction”. Signs of life are everywhere. Hearts and minds are changing.
Sheila has completely redirected the conversation about marriage and sex. And next week, Sheila and I start the launch of “The Good Guy’s Guide to Great Sex” which we hope will move us closer to a healthier understanding of Christian male sexuality. Others are stripping away the other “trappings” that have been inappropriately attached to Jesus. We still don’t know what the future will hold, but it looks bright to me and full of hope.
It looks like after fighting for so long, maybe we can all take a breath and be reassured by the words of St Paul that these “light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all.” (2 Cor 4:17)
Sheila here:
As I think about what Keith has written, my hope is that those questioning the church’s treatment of women (or others who are deconstructing for other important reasons) will no longer be pushed out of the church. Instead, I hope that our voices and numbers will become so big that we can reclaim the church. I hope people will keep speaking up. I believe that most in the evangelical church actually do want to serve Jesus and do not believe that the things we have taught about gender are essentials at all.
As our voices become louder, I pray that we won’t have to leave, but instead those that teach toxic things will be more and more marginalized, and the church will be reclaimed. And I do believe that is happening! Thank you all for your support as we do what is really deconstruction work.
And I’m excited to move to RECONSTRUCTION with the launch of The Good Guy’s Guide to Great Sex and The Good Girl’s Guide to Great Sex: Let’s build a healthy view of biblical sexuality in marriage, from the ground up!
Sheila Wray Gregoire
What do you think about deconstruction? Do you see hope for the future? Let’s talk in the comments.
Putting Christ Back in Christian Marriage SeriesPutting Christ Back in Christian Marriage Introductory Podcast6 Ways Christian Marriage Advice Leaves Christ OutWhy There's More to Christian Marriage Than Just 5 PassagesDoes a "Christian" Marriage Need to Suffer to Grow?Do We Need to Jump out of the Boiling Water? How Advice for Christian Men Got So Off Track (from Keith)On Deconstructing our Faith--and Reconstructing by Holding on to what Jesus has said (from Keith)Plus please see my submission series!
Keith Gregoire Blog and Podcast Contributor, Co-Author with Sheila of two upcoming marriage books
Keith is the rock that supports Sheila, who runs this blog! Sheila and Keith married when Keith was attending Queen's University medical school in Kingston, Ontario. He later completed his residency in pediatrics at the Hospital for Sick Children, and has since directed the pediatric undergraduate program at Queen's University, and been Chief of Pediatrics at a community hospital in Belleville, Ontario. He and Sheila speak at marriage conferences around the world, and together they've also done medical missions in Kenya. Next up: They're authoring The Guy's Guide to Great Sex together! Plus, of course, he's an avid birdwatcher. Related Posts Movie Reviews for Redeeming Love: What You Need to KnowJan 24, 2022 | 83 Comments
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January 27, 2022
What’s Wrong with Wanting to Submit to My Husband?
I get lots of emails from women who believe in hierarchy in marriage, where the woman submits her will to her husband and follows his decisions. Some of these women say they agree that you shouldn’t submit to an abusive man, but what if your husband is a good guy? What is wrong with submission if it’s working for you, if it’s led to a great marriage, if you’re enjoying your life?
When there’s no abuse, living this kind of life can actually be quite lovely. Some women really enjoy orienting their lives over serving others, and enjoy not having the responsibility for big decisions. That’s not a criticism–that’s just different personalities! And if you are such a woman, you may feel attacked when I (and others) say that this isn’t the model that Jesus calls us to.
I want to try to deal with this question today, because I know that I often present very bleak pictures of these sorts of hierarchical marriages. But what if you have such a marriage and it’s not bleak? Shouldn’t you get to submit if you want to?
It’s a great question, and let me try to answer it. We’ve been talking this month about keeping Christ in “Christian marriage advice”, and I want to end the series with this post, because I think it’s an important one.
Submission is good–We should all be submitting to each other.First, let me start with the basics. We’re called to submit to one another (Ephesians 5:21). Submission is a wonderful thing!
But we can mean different things from the word. Because we’re all to submit to one another, the word doesn’t have hierarchy connotations, as Jesus explains more fully in Matthew 20:25-28.
The point of the Christian life is about serving. It’s about a spirit of humility, as we find in Philippians 2:1-11, where we have the mind of Christ and we consider the interests of others higher than our own. We seek to serve.
This type of submission is not about submitting to someone else’s will, as much as it is submitting to someone else’s welfare. We orient our lives around helping others in humility.
You may also enjoy:My submission seriesPastors: Start preaching what you’re practising (deciding things together)The Slippery Slope of Hierarchy Theology (by Keith) No matter what, though, we are called to follow Jesus first.One of my favourite illustrations of this is from C.S. Lewis’ Narnia series, from the book Prince Caspian. In the night, little Lucy sees Aslan the Lion (the Christ figure) walking in the distance. She senses him calling her to follow him.
She wakes up her siblings and tells them, but they won’t listen to her. They tell her she’s wrong. She imagined it. It’s silly to follow him; it makes no sense right now.
And so she cries, and feels despondent, but she doesn’t go anywhere.
Later on in the story she meets up with Aslan, and he asks her why she didn’t follow on her own, even if the others (who were all older and technically “in authority” over her) said no. Here’s the exchange:
For a time she was so happy that she did not want to speak. But Aslan spoke.
“Lucy,” he said, “we must not lie here for long. You have work in hand, and much time has been lost today.”
“Yes, wasn’t it a shame?” said Lucy. “I saw you all right. They wouldn’t believe me. They’re all so –“
From somewhere deep inside Aslan’s body there came the faintest suggestion of a growl.
“I’m sorry,” said Lucy, who understood some of his moods. “I didn’t mean to start slanging the others. But it wasn’t my fault anyway, was it?”
The Lion looked straight into her eyes.
“Oh, Aslan,” said Lucy. “You don’t mean it was? How could I — I couldn’t have left the others and come up to you alone, how could I? Don’t look at me like that… oh well, I suppose I could. Yes, and it wouldn’t have been alone, I know, not if I was with you. But what would have been the good?”
Aslan said nothing.
“You mean,” said Lucy rather faintly, “that it would have turned out all right — somehow? But how? Please, Aslan! Am I not to know?”
“To know what would have happened, child?” said Aslan. “No. Nobody is ever told that.”
“Oh dear,” said Lucy.
“But anyone can find out what will happen,” said Aslan. “If you go back to the others now, and wake them up; and tell them you have seen me again; and that you must all get up at once and follow me — what will happen? There is only one way of finding out.”
“Do you mean that is what you want me to do?” gasped Lucy.
“Yes, little one,” said Aslan.
“Will the others see you too?” asked Lucy.
“Certainly not at first,” said Aslan. “Later on, it depends.”
“But they won’t believe me!” said Lucy,
“It does not matter,” said Aslan.
…
“Now, child,” said Aslan, when they had left the trees behind them, “I will wait here. Go and wake the others and tell them to follow. If they will not, then you at least must follow me alone.”
It is a terrible thing to have to wake four people, all older than yourself and all very tired, for the purpose of telling them something they probably won’t believe and making them do something they certainly won’t like. “I mustn’t think about it, I must just do it,” thought Lucy.
C.S. LewisI love that passage! It focuses on the importance of individual obedience to God no matter what.
Now, I actually think we would all agree that you should obey God no matter what.
But here’s my bigger concern:
If you assume that your husband will be the one to hear from God, then you may stop listening and looking for Jesus to call.If it is not your role to hear God’s will for your family’s life, then you may stop wrestling to find it or seeking it. If the default is that you will follow your husband, and listen to what he says on big decisions, then you can stop expecting to hear from God on these things. You don’t have to do the hard work of figuring out the best course of action, because that’s for your husband to do.
And indeed, if you start listening, that may cause disharmony. What if you hear something that your husband doesn’t? But if the assumption is that you follow your husband, then there’s a chance that you can avoid disharmony, and can always be in unity.
This is a delicate thing to talk about, and I’m certainly not trying to insinuate that those who follow their husbands don’t pray or that they ignore God. But I do wonder if that relationship with God may tend to revolve around personal piety, Scripture knowledge, and worship, rather than asking big questions about one’s role in the kingdom of God or listening to what God may have you do.
Now, we need personal piety and worship and we certainly need Scriptural knowledge! These things are actually in short supply. But I do worry that we may miss the bigger picture, which is orienting our lives around what God has planned for us to do, from the beginning of the age (Ephesians 2:10).
Yes, when you’re married to a good person that you love and trust, simply following him can lead to domestic bliss.But what if there’s a bigger story to be told with your life?I don’t mean that you have a career or that you get a big job or start a big missions organization or something. God rejoices in small things, and God asks different things of us.
But we don’t serve Jesus by serving and following our husbands. We serve Jesus by serving Jesus–by seeking Jesus’ will first and foremost and being part of what He is doing, whatever that may look like.
It’s like the parables Jesus told about the kingdom of God:
“The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field.
“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant looking for fine pearls. When he found one of great value, he went away and sold everything he had and bought it.
Matthew 13:44-46The real question, you see, is not whether what you’re doing leads to a good marriage. It’s how you measure success in the first place. What is the aim?
Or it’s like what Paul wrote in Philippians 3. He lists all his credentials, about how he came from a great family, and how he had the life that everyone thought was perfect. But he sets them straight:
But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.
Philippians 3:7-11 The point of our lives is knowing Christ. He is the center.And we do not know Christ by following our husband’s will; we know Christ by following Christ wholeheartedly.It’s amazing how one of the most frequent things Jesus says in the gospels is “Follow me.” I’ve been watching The Chosen lately, and that phrase is repeated over and over again–“follow me.”
We follow Christ, and we know Christ by orienting our lives around Christ.
Yes, that will mean serving those around us, including our husbands. That will mean rich and rewarding relationships on earth. That will mean taking care of our children and investing in them. But we do it all as our lives revolve with Christ as the center–not with our husbands at the center.
We remember that we are just as capable of hearing from God as our husbands, and we endeavour to listen and to seek out God’s will for our family, so that we can truly be that suitable helper for our husbands. We can be strong in the Lord when our husband is weak, just as he can be strong when we are weak. We are a team.
We are two people, running towards Christ together, side by side, holding hands, with Christ as the focus.
It is very possible to create a wonderful life for the two of you where you follow a good-willed man where he wants to go, and where you just decide not to challenge this but to embrace this. And you may have a satisfying marriage, and lovely children, and a satisfying life. But this life does not revolve around pursuing Jesus but instead around following someone else.
It is a husband-centered life, rather than a Jesus-centered life.Let me end with my favourite verses, that I have often considered my life verses:
Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured such opposition from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
Hebrews 12:1-3 The big things to notice from this passage:We throw off BOTH the things that hinder AND the sin. We can have things holding us back from Jesus that aren’t necessarily sin–like orienting your life around another human being.As we live life, Jesus alone is the focus and the aim.As we consider Jesus and keep him as the focus, we gain strength for the unique race that he has put in front of each of us.It is a beautiful thing to want to serve your husband, and to pursue harmony in marriage.It absolutely is. And if you have two people of goodwill and of the right personalities (where he is more decisive and she loves serving), this can work well. This can lead to domestic bliss.
But that is not the point of our lives. Our lives are to orient around Jesus, for each and every one of us, always. We are to be part of the bigger picture of what God is doing. We are to serve Him and listen to Him.
And in so doing, we can achieve domestic bliss in a whole other way. This doesn’t replace the domestic bliss you may want; it gives it a richer purpose.
Dear sisters, keep Jesus as the focus.Listen to Him, follow Him, keep Jesus as the main thing. This is what you were created for.
Do you agree? Is there another way to explain this better? Have you seen it where the husband being in authority works with some couples? Let’s talk in the comments!
Putting Christ Back in Christian Marriage SeriesPutting Christ Back in Christian Marriage Introductory Podcast6 Ways Christian Marriage Advice Leaves Christ OutWhy There's More to Christian Marriage Than Just 5 PassagesDoes a "Christian" Marriage Need to Suffer to Grow?Do We Need to Jump out of the Boiling Water? How Advice for Christian Men Got So Off Track (from Keith)On Deconstructing our Faith--and Reconstructing by Holding on to what Jesus has said (from Keith)Is it So Wrong to Want to Submit to My Husband?How Hierarchy in Marriage Can Hurt Husbands TooPlus please see my submission series!
Sheila Wray Gregoire Founder of To Love, Honor and Vacuum
Sheila is determined to help Christians find BIBLICAL, HEALTHY, EVIDENCE-BASED help for their marriage. And in doing so, she's turning the evangelical world on its head, challenging many of the toxic teachings, especially in her newest book The Great Sex Rescue. She’s an award-winning author of 8 books and a sought-after speaker. With her humorous, no-nonsense approach, Sheila works with her husband Keith and daughter Rebecca to create podcasts and courses to help couples find true intimacy. Plus she knits. All the time. ENTJ, straight 8 FacebookTwitter Related Posts Keith’s Manifesto: Guys, It’s Time to Jump Out of the Boiling WaterJan 26, 2022 | 70 Comments
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Is it So Bad to Want to Be in Submission to My Husband?
I’ve had a conversation in real life with a woman who believes in hierarchy in marriage, where the woman submits her will to her husband and follows his decisions. She agrees that you shouldn’t submit to an abusive man, but what if your husband is a good guy? What is wrong with submission if it’s working for you, if it’s led to a great marriage, if you’re enjoying your life?
When there’s no abuse, living this kind of life can actually be quite lovely. Some women really enjoy orienting their lives over serving others, and enjoy not having the responsibility for big decisions. That’s not a criticism–that’s just different personalities! And if you are such a woman, you may feel attacked when I (and others) say that this isn’t the model that Jesus calls us to.
I want to try to deal with this question today, because I know that I often present very bleak pictures of these sorts of hierarchical marriages. But what if you have such a marriage and it’s not bleak? Shouldn’t you get to submit if you want to?
It’s a great question, and let me try to answer it.
Submission is good–We should all be submitting to each other.First, let me start with the basics. We’re called to submit to one another (Ephesians 5:21). Submission is a wonderful thing! But we can mean different things from the word. Because we’re all to submit to one another, the word doesn’t have hierarchy connotations, as Jesus explains more fully in Matthew 20:25-28.
The point of the Christian life is about serving. It’s about a spirit of humility, as we find in Philippians 2:1-11, where we have the mind of Christ and we consider the interests of others higher than our own. We seek to serve.
This type of submission is not about submitting to someone else’s will, as much as it is submitting to someone else’s welfare. We orient our lives to helping others in humility.
You may also enjoy:My submission seriesPastors: Start preaching what you’re practising (deciding things together)The Slippery Slope of Hierarchy Theology (by Keith) No matter what, though, we are called to follow Jesus first.One of my favourite illustrations of this is from C.S. Lewis’ Narnia series, from the book Prince Caspian. In the night, little Lucy sees Aslan the Lion (the Christ figure) walking in the distance. She senses him calling her to follow him.
She wakes up her siblings and tells them, but they won’t listen to her. They tell her she’s wrong. She imagined it. It’s silly to follow him; it makes no sense right now.
And so she cries, and feels despondent, but she doesn’t go anywhere.
Later on in the story she meets up with Aslan, and he asks her why she didn’t follow on her own, even if the others (who were all older and technically “in authority” over her) said no. Here’s the exchange:
I think we would all agree that you should listen to Jesus no matter what.
But here’s my bigger concern:
If you assume that your husband will be the one to hear from God, then you may stop listening and looking for Jesus to call.If it is not your role to hear God’s will for your family’s life, then you may stop wrestling to find it or seeking it. If the default is that you will follow your husband, and listen to what he says on big decisions, then you can stop expecting to hear from God on these things. You don’t have to do the hard work of figuring out the best course of action, because that’s for your husband to do.
And indeed, if you start listening, that may cause disharmony. What if you hear something that your husband doesn’t? But if the assumption is that you follow your husband, then there’s a chance that you can avoid disharmony, and can always be in unity.
This is a delicate thing to talk about, and I’m certainly not trying to insinuate that those who follow their husbands don’t pray or that they ignore God. But I do wonder if that relationship with God may tend to revolve around personal piety, Scripture knowledge, and worship, rather than asking big questions about one’s role in the kingdom of God or listening to what God may have you do.
Now, we need personal piety and worship and we certainly need Scriptural knowledge! These things are actually in short supply. But I do worry that we may miss the bigger picture, which is orienting our lives around what God has planned for us to do, from the beginning of the age (Ephesians 2:10).
Yes, when you’re married to a good person that you love and trust, simply following him can lead to domestic bliss.But what if there’s a bigger story to be told with your life?I don’t mean that you have a career or that you get a big job or start a big missions organization or something. God rejoices in small things, and God asks different things of us.
But we don’t serve Jesus by serving and following our husbands. We serve Jesus by serving Jesus–by seeking Jesus’ will first and foremost and being part of what He is doing, whatever that may look like.
It’s like the parables Jesus told about the kingdom of God:
“The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field.
“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant looking for fine pearls. When he found one of great value, he went away and sold everything he had and bought it.
Matthew 13:44-46The real question, you see, is not whether what you’re doing leads to a good marriage. It’s how you measure success in the first place. What is the aim?
Or it’s like what Paul wrote in Philippians 3. He lists all his credentials, about how he came from a great family, and how he had the life that everyone thought was perfect. But he sets them straight:
But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.
Philippians 3:7-11 The point of our lives is knowing Christ. He is the center.And we do not know Christ by following our husband’s will; we know Christ by following Christ wholeheartedly.It’s amazing how one of the most frequent things Jesus says in the gospels is “Follow me.” I’ve been watching The Chosen lately, and that phrase is repeated over and over again–“follow me.”
We follow Christ, and we know Christ by orienting our lives around Christ.
Yes, that will mean serving those around us, including our husbands. That will mean rich and rewarding relationships on earth. That will mean taking care of our children and investing in them. But we do it all as our lives revolve with Christ as the center–not with our husbands at the center.
We remember that we are just as capable of hearing from God as our husbands, and we endeavour to listen and to seek out God’s will for our family, so that we can truly be that suitable helper for our husbands. We can be strong in the Lord when our husband is weak, just as he can be strong when we are weak. We are a team.
We are two people, running towards Christ together, side by side, holding hands, with Christ as the focus.
It is very possible to create a wonderful life for the two of you where you follow a good-willed man where he wants to go, and where you just decide not to challenge this but to embrace this. And you may have a satisfying marriage, and lovely children, and a satisfying life. But this life does not revolve around pursuing Jesus but instead around following someone else.
It is a husband-centered life, rather than a Jesus-centered life.Let me end with my favourite verses, that I have often considered my life verses:
Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured such opposition from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
Hebrews 12:1-3 The big things to notice from this passage:We throw off BOTH the things that hinder AND the sin. We can have things holding us back from Jesus that aren’t necessarily sin–like orienting your life around another human being.As we live life, Jesus alone is the focus and the aim.As we consider Jesus and keep him as the focus, we gain strength for the unique race that he has put in front of each of us.It is a beautiful thing to want to serve your husband, and to pursue harmony in marriage.It absolutely is. And if you have two people of goodwill and of the right personalities (where he is more decisive and she loves serving), this can work well. This can lead to domestic bliss.
But that is not the point of our lives. Our lives are to orient around Jesus, for each and every one of us, always. We are to be part of the bigger picture of what God is doing. We are to serve Him and listen to Him.
And in so doing, we can achieve domestic bliss in a whole other way. This doesn’t replace the domestic bliss you may want; it gives it a richer purpose.
Dear sisters, keep Jesus as the focus.Listen to Him, follow Him, keep Jesus as the main thing. This is what you were created for.
What do you think? Let’s talk in the comments!
Sheila Wray Gregoire Founder of To Love, Honor and Vacuum
Sheila is determined to help Christians find BIBLICAL, HEALTHY, EVIDENCE-BASED help for their marriage. And in doing so, she's turning the evangelical world on its head, challenging many of the toxic teachings, especially in her newest book The Great Sex Rescue. She’s an award-winning author of 8 books and a sought-after speaker. With her humorous, no-nonsense approach, Sheila works with her husband Keith and daughter Rebecca to create podcasts and courses to help couples find true intimacy. Plus she knits. All the time. ENTJ, straight 8 FacebookTwitter Related Posts Movie Reviews for Redeeming Love: What You Need to KnowJan 24, 2022 | 78 Comments
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The post Is it So Bad to Want to Be in Submission to My Husband? appeared first on To Love, Honor and Vacuum.
PODCAST: It’s Time to Jump Out of the Boiling Water
Today, on the Start Your Engines men’s focus of the podcast for the last Thursday of the month, Keith talks about his manifesto from yesterday and encourages men to see what is happening and jump out of the boiling water.
He got pretty passionate about this!
Browse all the Different Podcasts
Or, as always, you can watch on YouTube:
Timeline of the Podcast
0:10 Updates
2:50 Jumping out of the boiling water
16:00 The twittersphere discussions
22:00 Why Sheila criticizes
28:00 Research on remarriage
33:15 RQ: The tie breaker issue
44:00 Closing announcement–Launch team is starting next week!
Whether it’s blaming women for men’s lust, or saying that men can’t do basic Christian things unless their wives go out of their way to encourage the guys (even though the wives are doing these basic things all the time), we’ve gotten to the point where we expect so little of men and so much of women.
And that naturally leads to excusing abuse.
Keith elaborates on his post, and you can hear his passion asking the church to get back to Jesus!
Research: Why do men remarry more than women after divorce?Rebecca joins us as we look at research that shows that men are more likely to remarry after a divorce. We discuss how many women feel that life alone is actually easier, especially if they’re coming out of a traumatic marriage.
What should this teach us about how we’re doing marriage?
Reader Question: What if We’re at a Stalemate?A woman writes in saying that she agrees with what I’ve been saying about submission, but she’s at a loss as to what to do when she and her husband arrive at a stalemate. She writes:
My husband is a good man, but slowly over several decades, we have gone from intense and passionate lovers, to barely even enjoying being roommates. Our different opinions on how the house should be, how the kids should be parented, etc. etc. has become a wall between us. He resents me for being strong and standing up when I believe something is wrong. He says I am not being a supportive wife and definitely not a helpmeet. I told him “being a helpmeet means HELPING! If I see you about to drive off a cliff I am not going to compliment what a good job you are are doing driving. I’m going to scream TURN NOW!”
However the problem that comes up, which your show failed to discuss and I am so hopeful you have advice… is what to do when we disagree and there isn’t really a compromise that can be reached? My mindset cannot give over the “there has to be a final say and a final person in charge.” Otherwise nothing gets done/changed. For example:
I want to take my daughter with me to a family funeral out of state. My husband says no. His reasons are valid. So are mine.
OR
I want to change the formal dining room into a quiet reading room (or some sort of room rather than formal dining), but husband says it stays a formal dining room (even though we never use it!). So either we argue or it stays.
How do we BOTH deprogram ourselves? We need examples of HOW to work things out in a healthy relationship (like you and your husband – I loved hearing BOTH sides of this issue!!!).
Don't Miss the Launch Team!Sign up to my email list to be notified when you can join the Launch Team for The Good Guy’s Guide to Great Sex or The Good Girl’s Guide to Great Sex–and get pre-order bonuses, early copies of the books, and more!
Join our list! Things Mentioned in This Podcast:Keith’s big manifesto post from yesterdayThe Great Sex RescueThe research study we quoted about women remarrying less than menOwen Strachan’s original tweet and The Gospel Coalition’s terrible reelOur two podcasts on headship–one where I talk about what I learned and one with Bruce Fleming
What do you think? Are stalemates more common if you believe men are the tie breaker? Why do women not remarry like men do? Let’s talk in the comments!
Sheila Wray Gregoire Founder of To Love, Honor and Vacuum
Sheila is determined to help Christians find BIBLICAL, HEALTHY, EVIDENCE-BASED help for their marriage. And in doing so, she's turning the evangelical world on its head, challenging many of the toxic teachings, especially in her newest book The Great Sex Rescue. She’s an award-winning author of 8 books and a sought-after speaker. With her humorous, no-nonsense approach, Sheila works with her husband Keith and daughter Rebecca to create podcasts and courses to help couples find true intimacy. Plus she knits. All the time. ENTJ, straight 8 FacebookTwitter Related Posts Movie Reviews for Redeeming Love: What You Need to KnowJan 24, 2022 | 78 Comments
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January 26, 2022
Keith’s Manifesto: Guys, It’s Time to Jump Out of the Boiling Water
Our series this month is “putting Christ back in Christian marriage advice.”
When I told Keith that, he said that there’s something he’s been wanting say for a while, but it would be intense.
I told him to go for it. And so I’ve named this post Keith’s manifesto! Here’s what’s been haunting and bothering him, especially over the last year. May we all see change come.
Sheila Wray Gregoire Keith’s ManifestoI vividly remember going to a Summer Youth Rally just weeks after I accepted Christ after a long period as an atheist.
Together with all the other wide-eyed teens, I heard the pastor explain the “Boiling Frog Analogy”:
“If you drop a frog into boiling water, it will of course immediately jump out. But if you put it in warm water and turn the heat up slowly enough, it won’t recognize the danger and it will be cooked alive.”
Now I recognize this analogy is scientifically untrue (not to mention cruel). But as a teenager it resonated. I vowed to do my best to not conform to my culture lest it slowly draw me away from God again.
That’s the first tidbit you need to know as background. The second is this:
With the exception of one brief period, I have always believed that God did not design hierarchy into the relationship between men and women, either in marriage or in the church.To me the clear reading of Genesis is that male and female were created to rule over creation together under God (Gen 1:28) and men ruling over women is clearly a result of the fall (Gen 3:16). Paul tells us that Jesus lifted the curse (Gal 3:13) which has restored men and women to right relationship together under God (Gal 3:28), a fact Paul lived out in his own life as seen in Romans 16 where a full third of the people he lists working with him in the service of God are women (in a time when women’s legal rights were few and far between!)
However, I recognize that there are diverse opinions about this in the church. My view, while completely orthodox, is not the only view. Some believe that men were placed by God hierarchically in a position above women, including some of my early mentors in the faith. In fact, the reason I briefly believed in the hierarchy viewpoint was people using the “Boiling Frog Analogy” to convince me that I was conforming to our “feminist culture” rather than following “God’s true way”. How I came to recognize that was not true and get back to my original belief is a post in itself, but let me stick to the point I want to make today:
The fact is that the cultural creep, the ungodly compromise, the true danger in the church these days is now in exactly the opposite direction.A culture of misogyny has been percolating in the evangelical church for decades. It has now reached a level of overtness and sinfulness – a “boiling point”, if you will, but somehow the people inside don’t seem to realize it.
Take, for example the discussions around the idea of the husband being the spiritual leader of the home. The Gospel Coalition recently posted on Instagram about how “easy it is for men to be passive” and how women need to reassure their husbands about how much they respect them so their husbands will be able to “take some of the risks that are involved in spiritual leadership”. They proceed to spell out these risky behaviors:
“Being the main person getting the family to go to church on Sunday”,“praying and reading the Scriptures” and“thinking about things from a Biblical perspective”.Seriously?!? Think about that. The Gospel Coalition is identifying a crisis in the church – that men are so passive that they won’t do what everybody agrees are basic and fundamental aspects of following the faith – and their solution: women need to do better at making men feel respected.
Now I agree wholeheartedly that we should not be passive in our faith but we should all (men and women) be “pressing on toward the goal” (Phil 3:14). I don’t even have a problem (though I might disagree with them) with men who feel it is their specific God-given duty to take initiative in their family in a way that their wife doesn’t need to. If that is how you see it, then by all means, take the initiative!
But when we got to the point where men started to shift blame to women for their own lack of engagement and even for their failure to do the basic elements of the Christian faith, we should have jumped out of the water.Leaders lead; they don’t shout through megaphones for people to submit.
If you read books on leadership, you will find chapters on getting your own house in order, working on your own moral character, thinking about others and being open to other perspectives. What you will NOT find is a chapter on how to use propaganda to convince people to follow you even if you are a manifestly bad leader. Yet that is what so many evangelical Christian resources are teaching. It doesn’t matter if your husband is terrible, un-Christlike, even abusive, God has ordained that you respect him because God has woven male preeminence into the very fabric of creation.
The fruits of this teaching are stunningly awful to anyone who has jumped out of the boiling water. It has created an army of what Patrick Weaver calls “dysfunctional man-boys”, men who feel they deserve deference from women despite their own bad character and husbands who feel they can chalk up any failures on their own part to their wives’ “lack of respect”.
If we have ears to hear, a man blaming a woman for his own sin will sound familiar and will instantly be seen for what it is.
But if you think that is a stunning example of how we have learned nothing since Genesis chapter 3, take a look at how the church handles lust.In the evangelical church, the idea that lust is “every man’s battle” is ubiquitous.
What is the solution? Women need to “top up” their husbands and cover up themselves. Both are dangerous doctrinal errors. And both have gone unrecognized as such because the movement toward these beliefs was so insidious.
In the first case, it has become common teaching that wives need to “top up their husband’s cup” – that is, have sex as often as their husbands say they need it, otherwise men will inevitably be tempted to stray. They can’t help it; they are men. You wives need to stand in the gap. This is your God-given duty.
Seriously?!? What happened to self-control? Apparently that fruit of the Spirit is off the table if you were born with a Y chromosome!
How did we get to this point without jumping out of the water?
It is clearly a doctrinal error on at least two counts. First, it makes one person accountable for another person’s sin. (And let me ask: how did we not realize that the “misogyny thermometer” in the evangelical church was near the top when we started believing a woman should be held responsible for a husband’s unfaithfulness?)
And second, it is clearly an error to portray any sin as an endless struggle without victory apart from the assistance of your wife. Paul says to “put lust to death” (Col 3:5) not to “push lust below the surface where it will continue to fester your entire male life”, but that is precisely what the evangelical church is teaching. All because we have swallowed the lie that sexual sin is “rooted in our maleness”.
We are straying from sound doctrine in order to cling to an idea about masculinity that is clearly and unmistakably flawed.Which brings me to the second point: women need to cover up. Sheila has already talked about why the modesty message is toxic, so let me keep this short. The “misogyny thermometer” in the evangelical church has reached the boiling point in the modesty message.
Now certainly being modest in our dress and habits is a Christian ideal (though “modest” doesn’t necessarily mean what you think it means).
However, it is clear to me that the evangelical church sees women dressing immodestly as a worse sin than men lusting after them.Every time Sheila talks about lust, someone always chimes in with how the real problem is with how immodest women are in their dress. We should all instantly recognize that saying one sin excuses another is blatantly antithetical to Biblical morality. But we do this in the case of men lusting after women so effortlessly, shamelessly and unironically that it is a marvel to behold. Again, it comes down to our flawed view of masculinity that we refuse to relinquish:
Women can choose how to dress and must be held accountable. Men, however, get a pass, for they cannot choose not to lust; God made them that way.This teaching is everywhere. For example, take the recent book “Married Sex”, where Gary Thomas explains to women that by God’s design, men’s brains are wired in such a way that “sexual thoughts flicker in the background of a man’s visual cortex all day and night, making him always at the ready for seizing sexual opportunity”.
Is this what we hold up as the model of what a redeemed and Spirit-filled man looks like?Even if it were presented as “less than ideal, but the best we can hope for”, it would be disheartening. Yes, of course men are going to be sexually attracted to women. That is how God made us and we shouldn’t be ashamed of a healthy male sexuality. But to me this passage sounds predatory and frightening. I can only imagine how it sounds to a woman!
Worse still, there is a horrific doctrinal issue here that I am trying to wrap my head around. If we believe that this is inherently what all men are like and if we believe that Jesus was “tempted in every way just as we are” (Heb 4:15)…I hesitate to put the next words in writing…then we must conclude that as Jesus walked the byways of Galilee with his female followers that He too had sexual thoughts flickering in his visual cortex, “making him always at the ready for seizing sexual opportunity”.
Do we actually think that about our Lord and Saviour?
If we believe this was untrue of Jesus, then we have only two choices.
It can also be untrue for us men today (and so we need to stop talking about lust the way we do) orJesus was different from today’s men in a fundamental way. In other words, he was human, but not a human completely like us.I talked in a recent post about how some people are willing to sacrifice the divinity of Christ to cling to distorted views of gender relations. Is sacrificing the humanity of Christ the next step?
No, Church! We must do better!
We can jump out of the boiling water.We can stop blaming women for men’s sin. We can refuse to see the objectification of women and male sexuality as the same thing.
And part of that – in my opinion – is realizing that by teaching that women are in any way less than men, we are training men to see women as objects for their use rather than equal partners working together for God’s kingdom.
Let me finish by telling you about the moment when the memory of that Youth Rally and the “Boiling Frog Analogy” came back into my mind.It was last year while the hideous story of abuse and human trafficking committed by Ravi Zacharias was being unearthed. Owen Strachan, a former president of the Council for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, tweeted about it:
“An unbeliever reads about an awful scandal and thinks, ‘That person is so awful! I hate people like that.’ A Christian reads about an awful scandal and thinks, ‘That could EASILY be me. God be merciful to me.’”
Owen StrachanAn unbeliever reads about an awful scandal and thinks, “That person is so awful! I hate people like that.”
— Owen Strachan (@ostrachan) February 12, 2021
A Christian reads about an awful scandal and thinks, “That could EASILY be me. God be merciful to me.”
I remember people reacting with “Oh, yeah, Owen. I could wake up some morning and OOOPS! I seem to have created a human trafficking ring to indulge my sexual deviance!” But my first thought was to agree 100% with Owen Strachan.
Ravi Zacharias abused hundreds of women while simultaneously claiming to be a spokesperson for God. More than that, his victims report that he considered his interactions with these women “his reward for his service to God”.
How does anyone get to the point where their conscience is so seared that they can see sexual abuse in this light?He did not see these women as human beings. In his own words, they were “rewards”, things, objects for his consumption.
Believing women are less than men, that women exist primarily to help and benefit men turns on the stove. To get to a Ravi Zacharias from that point is merely a matter of slowly turning up the heat.So, yes, I agree with Owen Strachan’s self -assessment: anyone who preaches that God has designed men to be over women is only a short series of bad choices away from becoming a monster. Strachan was wiser than he realized.
I have an idea: How about instead we start to see women as co-heirs of the gospel, as sisters in Christ and full participants in God’s kingdom?How about we see misogyny as a sin and stand up for God’s daughters? How about when we hear about a man sexually abusing a woman in the church we identify with the victim rather than the perpetrator and work to see she gets to safety and he gets brought to justice?
If even after all I have said, you still can’t let go of the idea of male preeminence, then please know this:
To those of us who have jumped out of the boiling water, when you shout about women needing to submit while failing to work on your own moral failings, we do not see a protector of Biblical truth. We see a scared little boy trying to feel strong by making others feel weak. Similarly, when you shame and chastise women for immodest dress and “being a stumbling block”, we do not see those women as the harlots you try to paint them. Instead, we see you as a man who is not safe to be around.
And, most of all, when you push patriarchy and male privilege and then say you could EASILY become an abuser, know this: We believe you.
Thankfully, the tide is turning.
Despite what anyone may try to tell you, you can reject misogyny and still be a Christian.In fact, the number of Christians who believe male preeminence is a “hill worth dying on” is very small – and getting smaller by the day. The voices of men like Owen Strachan and his ilk are being drowned out by the voices of strong women like Kristen Kobes DuMez, Beth Allison Barr and my amazing wife, Sheila Wray Gregoire. Women are finding freedom after years of church-sanctioned abuse by listening to voices like Leslie Vernick, Sarah McDugal and Gretchen Baskerville. And I get to stand shoulder to shoulder with men like Andrew Baumann, Patrick Weaver and Scott Coley as we try to rediscover a healthy Christian male sexual ethic – one that refuses to believe men are irredeemably bent in our sexuality or that our identity as men is so fragile that it demands women make themselves small.
We aren’t there yet, but we have begun to “throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles” (Heb 12:1) and are beginning to witness a new birth of freedom in Christ Jesus (Rom 8:2). And I am excited so see how much farther we get in 2022!
Did you have a “jump out of the water” moment? Do you have encouragement to share about how things are changing? Let’s talk about it in the comments.
Putting Christ Back in Christian Marriage SeriesPutting Christ Back in Christian Marriage Introductory Podcast6 Ways Christian Marriage Advice Leaves Christ OutWhy There's More to Christian Marriage Than Just 5 PassagesDoes a "Christian" Marriage Need to Suffer to Grow?Do We Need to Jump out of the Boiling Water? How Advice for Christian Men Got So Off TrackPlus please see my submission series!
Keith Gregoire Blog and Podcast Contributor, Co-Author with Sheila of two upcoming marriage books
Keith is the rock that supports Sheila, who runs this blog! Sheila and Keith married when Keith was attending Queen's University medical school in Kingston, Ontario. He later completed his residency in pediatrics at the Hospital for Sick Children, and has since directed the pediatric undergraduate program at Queen's University, and been Chief of Pediatrics at a community hospital in Belleville, Ontario. He and Sheila speak at marriage conferences around the world, and together they've also done medical missions in Kenya. Next up: They're authoring The Guy's Guide to Great Sex together! Plus, of course, he's an avid birdwatcher. Related Posts The Podcast Where Emerson Eggerichs Ignores Marital RapeJan 20, 2022 | 36 Comments
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January 25, 2022
Meditations on The God Who Sees Me
Specifically, I’ve been reading through Every Young Man’s Battle (I’ll write a review soon; I just need to process its awfulness first), and I’m amazed at how the authors keep telling boys just to ignore women or turn away from them. Receptionists, baristas, etc, you name it: You’re supposed to try not to see them.
This was never the approach of Jesus, and today I want to just do a very quick series of thoughts, since it’s Tuesday and I don’t normally write much on Tuesdays.
We’ll start with this graphic that I shared last night on Instagram and Facebook:
In the story, a woman has been weeping and anointing Jesus’ feet, and others have been thinking badly of her. And Jesus asks them, “Do you see her?” He sees her. And he invites the men to truly see her as well, for who she is.
It reminds me of this that we wrote in The Great Sex Rescue, after talking about how harmful the obligation sex message is, and how evangelicals have turned it into justifying coercion in all too many cases:
From The Great Sex Rescue When the three of us think of how badly women have been hurt by the obligation-sex message, whether through manipulation, obligation, coercion, or pain, we’re reminded of the Bible story of Hagar, Abraham, and Sarah. As you may remember, God had promised Abraham he would have a son and from this son God would make a great nation. The problem? Abraham and Sarah were both old, and Sarah was barren. In desperation, Sarah suggested that Abraham have a child with her slave, Hagar.
Nothing in the Bible story tells us that Hagar was a willing participant. As a servant, she would not have been able to truly consent. Her feelings and needs wouldn’t matter. Nevertheless, Abraham heeded Sarah’s advice and used Hagar to have a son. Some years later, miraculously Abraham does have a child with Sarah. Now Hagar and her son Ishmael were threats to Isaac, the child of the promise. Abraham sends Hagar and her son away.
While she is in the desert, God provides for her. And here’s where things get interesting. Hagar is the first person in Scripture who is given the honor of bestowing a name upon God. And the name she chooses? “The God who sees me.” After being sexually assaulted, forced to carry a baby, and then abandoned, never hav- ing her needs or wishes taken into account, being invisible and used to meet other people’s needs, God sees her.
And being seen makes all the difference.
God sees women. God does not say to women, “Your experience doesn’t matter compared to your husband’s tremendous need.” God does not tell women, “Let your husband ejaculate inside you, no matter how you feel, because otherwise you are in disobedience.” No, God says, “I designed sex to be a deep knowing of two people. And that, my child, means that both of you matter.”
One last thing–the horrible story of the Levite and the concubine.Someone shared this amazing Instagram video from Jo Vitale about a very disturbing story in the Old Testament. She got me thinking along these lines again this week, and I think this is worth everyone watching!
View this post on InstagramWe serve a God who truly sees us.
He sees you today. May you rest in that, dear friends.
The Great Sex RescueChanging the conversation about sex & marriage in the evangelical church. What if you're NOT the problem with your sex life?What if the things that you've been taught have messed things up--and what if there's a way to escape these messages?
Welcome to the Great Sex Rescue. Order Now!What do you think? Have you ever felt invisible? Have you ever been angry at some of these Bible stories? Let’s talk in the comments!
Sheila Wray Gregoire Founder of To Love, Honor and Vacuum
Sheila is determined to help Christians find BIBLICAL, HEALTHY, EVIDENCE-BASED help for their marriage. And in doing so, she's turning the evangelical world on its head, challenging many of the toxic teachings, especially in her newest book The Great Sex Rescue. She’s an award-winning author of 8 books and a sought-after speaker. With her humorous, no-nonsense approach, Sheila works with her husband Keith and daughter Rebecca to create podcasts and courses to help couples find true intimacy. Plus she knits. All the time. ENTJ, straight 8 FacebookTwitter Related Posts Why Does Emerson Eggerichs Consider a Woman Crying in the Shower Before Sex “A Goldmine”?Jan 19, 2022 | 99 Comments
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The post Meditations on The God Who Sees Me appeared first on To Love, Honor and Vacuum.
January 24, 2022
Movie Reviews for Redeeming Love: What You Need to Know
Redeeming Love was originally a novel written by Francine Rivers in 1991, and it quickly became one of the best-selling Christian novels of all time. This year Universal Pictures made it into a movie, and it opened in theatres last week.
It’s supposed to be the book of Hosea in the Bible put in the 1850s goldrush in California. Angel has been sex trafficked since she was 8 years old, and works in a brothel. Michael hears God telling him to marry Angel, and he does (well, he marries Angel; Angel doesn’t actually marry him, since she’s pretty much unconscious during the ceremony, but more on that in a minute).
She never wanted to marry him, and she keeps leaving, and he keeps pursuing, and then finally they end up together in the end.
I read Redeeming Love many, many years ago, and don’t remember much except that I really, really didn’t like Michael. He seemed never to actually see Angel and who she was, but only this ideal of what he believed she could be.
Anyway, I’m super busy right now and I didn’t really want to reread the book or watch the movie, so I thought I’d just link to some reviews that I thought made some important points, and give a bit more commentary on those!
But first, one observation:
I noticed while looking up Christian reviews that one of the big criticisms of the book and movie is that they’re too erotic, and that can be a slippery slope.I do agree with that. I know many teen girls especially who started on Christian fiction, then went to Nora Roberts type books, and then on to full-blown erotica. And that can do major damage to a sex life! So I agree that this can definitely be an issue.
However, in this case it reminds me of how Every Man’s Battle frames lust as a sin against a man’s purity, rather than a sin against an actual woman–or frames pornography as a sin against a man’s purity, rather than a contributor to sex trafficking.
Yes, erotica is bad, but I also think it’s important to ask, “what are we being prompted to get turned on by?” What else is going on? And it’s there that I see far more disturbing elements.
Redeeming Love romanticizes and eroticizes what is essentially an abusive, controlling relationship.I’ll let Captain Laura Van Schaick from the Salvation Army in Ontario (my own province) explain from her review:
Despite its overwhelming popularity, there are elements of this romance that paint an unhealthy picture of love.
Throughout the narrative, Michael demonstrates some disturbing characteristics of abuse:
When Michael first meets Angel, he renames her Mara. Despite repeated requests that he call her Angel, Michael continues to bestow different names upon her. Abusers will seek to erase their victims’ innate sense of personhood, and renaming them is an often-used tactic.Michael then announces his intentions to Angel. There’s no request made, only a command—you are going to marry me. Despite repeated refusals to his proposal, when Michael returns to Angel’s brothel one night and finds her badly beaten and nearly unconscious, he pays a hefty sum to the madam and promptly marries her without her full consent.Angel tries to flee, finding work at a general store, then as a cook and finally opening a halfway house to offer hope to women wanting to leave a life of prostitution. Despite her attempts to hide her tracks, Michael repeatedly seeks Angel out and brings her back to his remote farmhouseThis is not a romantic love. This is not a holy love. It is a harmful abuse of power. And it does not model the type of love God offers to us.
Power and ConsentIn light of the #MeToo movement and allegations of abuse in the church, the importance of consent and respect cannot be over emphasized, not only in sexual relationships but also emotional and spiritual ones.
Michael rarely gives Angel agency, the privilege to choose and act for oneself. While he doesn’t rape her, Michael violates Angel’s agency in many other physical, emotional and social ways.
Where unequal power exists, consent does not.
Captain Laura Van SchaickMovie Review: Redeeming Love, The Salvation Army Movie Reviews
Exactly. I agree with every word of this review of Redeeming Love (and it’s quite short, so you can read it quickly!), and highly recommend it. (Although I would argue more forcefully that it actually was marital rape, even if he wasn’t physically forcing her.As she said, there was no consent.)
For more on marital rape and coercion, please see:Chapter 10 in The Great Sex Rescue, “When Duty Sex Becomes Coercion”, about how evangelical best-sellers have ignored marital rape, and even portrayed instances of marital rape without framing this as something badThe “Duty Sex Isn’t Sexy” podcastOn Obligation Sex and Marital Rape podcast The Christian community needs to stop romanticizing power dynamicsSo Michael declares that God told him that he’s to marry Angel–and she’s supposed to just agree? Even though she’s heard no such thing from God? And even though Michael does everything in his power to show that he doesn’t really see who Angel really is and what she wants?
Even at the end of the book (or movie), when she has spent several years building a non-profit home where she’s actually doing some good for other former trafficked victims, and she’s making a difference in the world for the better, she ends up leaving that behind to go live on a farm with Michael. Why doesn’t he come and help her in this very worthy endeavour?
The book of Hosea is interesting, and it’s a lovely story of how God loves us and pursues us even when we turn our backs on him, but it was never meant to be put in modern (or semi-modern) times. And when we do that, it gets really ugly.
Redeeming Love doesn’t deal well with traumaAngel is a character who was sex trafficked from the age of 8. The trauma she suffered was immense. Everything she did was basically a trauma response. And therapists will tell you that what abuse victims and trauma survivors need most to heal is a sense of agency. Instead of giving her that agency, this book constantly chastises her and portrays her as being in the wrong for trying to assert what she really wants. She’s just supposed to go along with what this other man says is best for her, even though she has other options and other people in her life who have treated her better.
She’s supposed to leave the people in her life who are encouraging her to be herself and discover what she really wants (and even teach her to read and write!), and go back to this man who is telling her who she’s supposed to be, rather than treating her as a whole person. (If he really wanted to help her better herself, why didn’t HE teach her how to read and write?).
It’s this lack of attention to consent, agency, and trauma that makes me very, very leery of Redeeming Love.We have a tendency to romanticize controlling relationships–look how much he loves her! Look how much he pursues her!, instead of looking for emotional health.
Obsession and control is not love.
I know that many have loved this book, and the picture it gave of God saved their faith, and if that’s you, I’d strongly recommend not watching the movie and just thanking God for the good that He brought out of the book and keep that as your memory. And if you’ve never read it, I’d also recommend skipping it, because maybe if Christians stop supporting movies that show an unhealthy marriage dynamic, then better movies will start being made.
Some other reviews with interesting insights about Redeeming Love:Libby Anne, a former evangelical, has written a long review of Redeeming Love that I very much appreciated. Just a taste:
And yet, throughout Rivers’ book, we’re to think of Angel as bitter and angry. The real problem with Angel is that her dream is to save enough money to buy a small cottage and live on her own, away from men. No really—that is Angel’s dream and it is a problem, because God has told Michael Hosea, a California farmer, to marry her, whether she wants to or not—and she most certainly does not.
Libby AnneSamantha Field, who grew up fundamentalist Christian but now writes from outside the faith, has written a huge series critiquing Redeeming Love. Warning: there is some swearing in it, and she comes from a perspective that many won’t agree with. But her take on abuse in particular in this entry in her review is spot on, in my opinion. Near the end, she sums up the book like this:
Redeeming Love is the story of an abuser who kidnaps an unconscious woman, barely restrains himself from murdering her, and gets what he wants in the end: a victim returning like a prodigal wife to kneel down, sobbing, at his feet begging forgiveness for wanting to be free of him.
Samantha FieldRedeeming Love: The Abuser Wins
Even a quick short review on a secular media review site sees the consent and controlling problems!
At first, Angel rejects Michael’s plan, rightly noting that he barely knows her. Despite the reasons behind her resistance, he makes no genuine attempts to learn more about her, her past, or what she wants out of life, instead continuing to deliver his promises of love with the same calm, sociopathic tone of a creeper who doesn’t know how to take no for an answer.
Derek SmithSlant Magazine, Redeeming Love Review
The fact that two women who have left the faith–and everyday secular reviewers–can see such glaring problems with this book is actually a big indictment.It is the fact that the Christian community has so elevated books like Redeeming Love, and failed to notice the abuse dynamics, that has often made people give up on Christianity, while ensuring that others would never consider it in the first place.
And even when as Christians we critique the movie, too often we get angrier at erotic content than enabling abuse. We worry about how watching the movie will affect us for the worse, rather than how it will affect the wider community.
It’s understandable why people would abandon Christianity. They think our version of Jesus doesn’t care, and is more concerned with sin management than actually protecting the well-being of people who are being hurt.
I’m glad the Salvation Army captain was so insightful in her review, and I encourage everyone to share that one!
Rebecca here with some very quick thoughts, because my mom and I had slightly different first reactions to RL. I also have serious problems with it, but I don’t see necessarily the romanticization of an unhealthy relationship as the problem. Fiction is escapism, in my eyes–it romanticizes what we would never want in real life (think about how many fiction books have the protagonist killing someone as a GOOD thing, for example). I personally don’t think that RL’s relationship dynamics are healthy to indulge in since they have the potential to prime someone for abusive relationships, but I struggle to say that fiction should *never* portray unhealthy relationships because fiction is, by definition, supposed to be fake/not real life. So it has a level of separation that non-fiction self-help books do not.
HOWEVER.
With RL, my problem is that it is marketed as a Christian book, a re-telling of Scripture, and it presents a man’s purchasing, abuse, and rape of a woman as God’s command. God’s will. He is a godly man. And this is marketed to Christian women as a Christian book with a good message. I wouldn’t actually give two hoots about RL if it were a non-Christian book, or if it used the story of Hosea as inspiration but didn’t include all the stuff about it being God’s will in it. But because it markets itself as Christian, it leaves the realm of pure fiction (where pretty much anything goes) and puts itself into a teaching position. It is, to me, the same as my issue with Mark Gungor’s “jokes.” If he were just a comedian, him making off-colour jokes about how all men want from women is sex wouldn’t really be an issue because he’s just joking. But he’s not “just a comedian”–he includes teaching about marriage in his routines, he is marketed as a marriage expert, he gives advice and counsel throughout his programs. So his jokes aren’t harmless but just in bad taste–they are actively telling people, “I am an authority on what God wants for you, and this is it.”
Similarly, by invoking the name of God, Rivers puts a Christian stamp of approval on men who use God’s word to abuse, assault, and erase the agency of women. That’s why I don’t like this book.
Rebecca Lindenbach
What do you think? Have you read Redeeming Love or seen the movie? Let’s talk in the comments!
Sheila Wray Gregoire Founder of To Love, Honor and Vacuum
Sheila is determined to help Christians find BIBLICAL, HEALTHY, EVIDENCE-BASED help for their marriage. And in doing so, she's turning the evangelical world on its head, challenging many of the toxic teachings, especially in her newest book The Great Sex Rescue. She’s an award-winning author of 8 books and a sought-after speaker. With her humorous, no-nonsense approach, Sheila works with her husband Keith and daughter Rebecca to create podcasts and courses to help couples find true intimacy. Plus she knits. All the time. ENTJ, straight 8 FacebookTwitter Related Posts Does a “Christian” Marriage Need to Suffer to Grow?Jan 18, 2022 | 25 Comments
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The post Movie Reviews for Redeeming Love: What You Need to Know appeared first on To Love, Honor and Vacuum.
January 21, 2022
What Does Treating Women with Respect Look Like?
We’ve been talking about putting the “Christ” back in Christian marriage this month, and part of that is by treating women as the Imago Dei (made in the image of God) instead of just as sex objects or appendages to men.
As I looked back on my social media this week, that theme kept coming up.
I actually had a huge week this week–I hit 20,000 followers on Instagram (please follow me if you haven’t already!), plus I had my two biggest posts on Facebook since they did an algorithm switch about eight years ago.
Let’s start with the biggest Facebook post, which was actually a hard one to write, but which I feel is tremendously important:
The “smokin’ hot wife” mentality among Christian pastors/leaders needs to stop.
I need to talk about something awkward, and I’m sorry, but this is important.
In my review of Married Sex by Gary Thomas and Debra Fileta this week, I mentioned that one of the things I found most disturbing was how Gary objectified his wife, thereby inviting other people to think of her in sexual terms. He mentioned her “superpowered, high-octane sexual excitement booster” nipples, and told us what she did at orgasm. (and I’m partially quoting because we need to understand this is bad so the trend will stop, not because I want to further the humiliation. Like I said, this is very awkward)
When backlash hit, his wife (I’ll omit first name) defended Gary on his Facebook Page.
However, the issue is not whether or not Gary’s wife is fine with being talked about this way. The issue is that an SBC megachurch pastor and best-selling marriage author has now made it normal for men to talk about their wives in sexual terms, which in turn invites the listener (or reader) to do so as well.
After explaining how women can do “something special” for their husband, like using your silk scarves and makeup brushes on his t*sticl*s, he writes, “Growing in your understanding of how his penis responds to your touch … will often create a husband who is so happy he married you it will be difficult for him not to brag to his friends about why.”
The thing is, most women do not want to be the subject of “locker room talk.” We do not want our husbands to brag about us in sexual terms to other people. We do not want other people picturing our nipples or what we look like at orgasm. We want to be private, dignified, respected.
Even if a wife is okay with this, this should never be normalized. This encourages men to think, “Well, Gary talked about his wife that way so it’s okay for me, too,” and women will believe, “well, his wife is okay with it so I must be a prude.”
Christian women–all women, actually–deserve more than this.
To Love, Honor and Vacuum pageThe response was overwhelming. I honestly think there’s a sea change, and women are really, really tired of being objectified, especially in church and Christian circles. We just don’t want to put up with this anymore.
The comments are fascinating too, so check out the original!
See it on Facebook! What if we stopped blaming teen girls if a man thought a girl was a “stumbling block”?Then there was this that I posted yesterday:
What would happen if the next time a man announced to a church leader or parent that a teen girl was dressed in such a way as to be a stumbling block, or that someone on the worship team was distracting because of her cleavage, we took this as a signal that the man was not safe? And we warned the girls in the youth group to keep their distance. And at church potlucks, we assigned men to stay with him so that he wouldn’t go near the teens or harass single women (or married women). We warned parents not to let their daughters baby-sit at his house. And we women told other women that this particular person had red flags? What would happen if we treated it as a problem with the MAN, rather than a problem with the girl?
To Love, Honor and Vacuum pageThe reaction to this one was mixed. Many women agreed with me, and others thought I was being far too hard on the men. I realized I should have specified that the adult man found the teenage girl “a stumbling block TO HIM” rather than just a stumbling block in general.
The most common reaction was that we really needed to talk about how so many girls come to church dressed like they’re going to a nightclub, and why don’t we spend just as much time on that? Why not equal time?
I didn’t reply there, so I’d like to reply here so all can see it.
The reason we don’t give equal time to what a girl wears and whether a man lusts after her is because Jesus didn’t give equal time.Jesus very clearly talked about the person who is lusting, and talked about how they should gauge their eye out. Jesus did not excuse the man because of what the woman looked like. And so the whole “stumbling block” argument doesn’t hold water.
But even beyond that, let’s talk about harm.
What is the harm done if a woman is dressed in revealing clothing? A man may struggle with temptation and be distracted.
What is the harm done if a grown man blames a teenage girl for his lust? Well, we can quantify that. When girls believe that they are responsible for men’s lust, it leads to lower marital and sexual satisfaction later in life. It leads them to trust their husbands less–even men who have not done anything to prove themselves untrustworthy. It artificially lowers women’s libidos later.
And even if that man never acts on that lust, he has now caused emotional harm to that girl–emotional harm that can follow her throughout her life. Even if it’s women who are telling girls that they are stumbling blocks for the men, those women are causing emotional harm.
But besides that, blaming girls for men’s lust also contributes to rape culture. It makes it easier for men and boys to get away with sexual assault, because girls feel ashamed, like they caused it. And so they don’t speak up, and the men and boys can act with impunity.
The most common time in one’s life to be sexually assaulted is ages 16-20–those teen years we’re talking about. And many, many girls are assaulted in youth group/church situations.
So why don’t we give equal attention? Because the harm isn’t equal. And we need to grapple with that and realize that a man blaming a girl for his lust shows that he is not emotionally safe for a teenage girl to be around, and is a red flag that he could be physically unsafe as well.
See the discussion on Facebook! I’ve been sharing about how bad Every Young Man’s Battle is all over social media as well.View this post on Instagram
And I’ve shared MaryEllen Bream’s AMAZING Facebook review of Every Young Man’s Battle multiple times this week–read it here! I’m working on my own, but it’s at about 5000 words right now. There are so, so many horrendous quotes it’s hard to even know where to start. I may put it away for a few weeks to get some perspective.
But I did make a Fixed It For You last night!
See it on Instagram! Want to See Some Knitting?And now for something completely different!
View this post on Instagram
I can wear all my knitting again! That was a huge victory this week!
Oh, and you can find the Love & Respect merchandise right here!
“Love AND Respect” Accent Coffee Mug, 11oz $10.00 
“Love AND Respect” Canvas Tote Bag $15.00 – $19.00 
“Love And Respect” Unisex Jersey Short Sleeve Tee $20.00 – $22.00 
Square Stickers $2.50 – $3.00 I’ve been asked over and over again on social media what I think about Redeeming Love.Francine Rivers wrote the novel based on Hosea quite a few years ago, and now it’s been made into a movie. I do have some concerns, but I also don’t have the time or emotional bandwidth to reread the book or watch the movie. So I think I’ll link to others next week who have written some insightful things about it. If you have any links you want me to include, drop them in the comments! But I’d rather lift up others than do work myself that others have already done well.
So I think that’s all for me! Rebecca had her birthday this week, so that was fun, and I’m going to spend tomorrow helping her with some new storage units I bought for her to organize her basement. Keith and I were supposed to be on our 30th anniversary cruise right now, but we cancelled because of the COVID numbers. So we’re going away for a few days with friends next week (the blog will still be up and running!), but I am sad to not be where it’s hot.
Today I’ll be putting up a funny reel on Instagram where I spit my tea on the podcast yesterday when Emerson Eggerichs said that you can’t tell if a woman is turned on. So come on over and follow me and don’t miss it!
And have a great weekend!
What do you think about the guy who finds teenage girls a stumbling block? How should we talk about our spouses in public? And do you have concerns about Redeeming Love or Every Young Man’s Battle (or did you love them?) Let’s talk in the comments!
What do you think? Let’s talk in the comments!
Sheila Wray Gregoire Founder of To Love, Honor and Vacuum
Sheila is determined to help Christians find BIBLICAL, HEALTHY, EVIDENCE-BASED help for their marriage. And in doing so, she's turning the evangelical world on its head, challenging many of the toxic teachings, especially in her newest book The Great Sex Rescue. She’s an award-winning author of 8 books and a sought-after speaker. With her humorous, no-nonsense approach, Sheila works with her husband Keith and daughter Rebecca to create podcasts and courses to help couples find true intimacy. Plus she knits. All the time. ENTJ, straight 8 FacebookTwitter Related Posts Christian Marriage Advice Is More than Just 5 PassagesJan 17, 2022 | 19 Comments
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January 20, 2022
The Podcast Where Emerson Eggerichs Ignores Marital Rape
As most of you know, every year in this week in January we revisit the problems with the book Love & Respect, in the hopes that more and more people will see and churches will stop using this as a resource. It should not still be the #1 marriage curriculum in North American churches. It has to stop.
Today Connor walks Keith and me through a podcast with Emerson Eggerichs and his son Jonathan, talking about a woman who is crying in the shower before sex, even though she still initiates obediently every 72 hours. Eggerichs praises her.
Connor wrote a long, thoughtful article about Emerson Eggerichs ignoring marital rape yesterday, but Keith and I are hearing all of this for the first time in this recording.
We get angry. I spit all over the counter. It’s quite the show.
So listen in!
Browse all the Different Podcasts
See the Last “Start Your Engines” (Men’s) Podcast
Or, as always, you can watch on YouTube:
Timeline of the Podcast
0:10 A TLHV Anniversay
4:20 Connor recaps the episode
11:00 A woman’s coercive sex expeirence is badly handled
20:00 Is disobedience applicable to both sides?
23:00 Men’s v Women’s Sexuality
36:15 Sheila’s Educational Corner
42:00 Both people need Honour & Respect
52:15 Red flags to watch for
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Take me to it! Main Segment: Emerson Eggerichs Not Recognizing either Marital Rape or ArousalFor this podcast, we are taking apart Emerson Eggerichs’ podcast episode 39–a Good Woman’s View of Sex. We do use some clips of it in our podcast, based on Fair Use doctrine where we are using the clips for commentary.
In this Bare Marriage episode, we show how Emerson Eggerichs shows he thinks:
women threatening divorce is a normal occurrence that isn’t a big dealwomen crying before sex is “not wasted” and is glorious to God because of her obedienceinitiating every 72 hours is duty and obediencea man acting badly if he doesn’t get sex isn’t a big dealwomen don’t need foreplay because they don’t actually get turned on (except perhaps at ovulation)women DO get turned on merely from men vacuumingYou can’t actually tell if a woman is arousedListen in. Please, really listen.
This is what is considered the height of marriage teaching in the evangelical church.
This is the man that is constantly featured on Focus on the Family. His curriculum Mothers & Sons is constantly marketed to its listeners, setting up the next generation to be just like this one. His book is the #1 marriage curriculum in North America.
The original letter writer who was crying in the shower commented on yesterday’s post.She talked about how destructive Emerson Eggerichs’ advice was:
This is/was me. I am the one who wrote the e-mail in 2015 after listening to one of Emerson’s previous podcasts. I am the “Susie” Emerson E. talks about. He didn’t even bother to change my last name, which at the time was [redacted]. He also didn’t ask if he could read my letter on air. This podcast was after my “good-willed Christian” husband (now ex) taught the L&R series at our church twice. This was after years of living in an abusive marriage and being manipulated by him and convinced by others that this ridiculous every three days like clockwork rule would make our marriage blissful and of course make him stop being abusive. It was always my fault my husband was psychologically/emotionally, spiritually, and sexually abusive towards me.
I heard the obligation message for years, I didn’t know anything different. There were no books I was aware of debating this nonsense. Scripture was quoted and this stuff was taught as gospel. The teaching was coming from so many Christian authors and leaders I truly thought God required this of me. My walk with Christ was and is my most precious relationship and these teachings manipulated that desire to please Him and created deep pain in the depths of my soul because I truly thought Christ was grieved by me (like I was the one being selfish when in actuality I was being coercively raped). Tortured like Christ no, abused and mistreated in a soul-crushing way, yes. Gaslighted into thinking my emotional pain was crazy and unwarranted, yep. After all who doesn’t love to be raped, er I mean, have sex right?
At the time I didn’t but now I think it is funny how Emerson turned the podcast into a how to turn on your wife sexually, he completely missed the point. (vacuuming is not and never has been an aphrodisiac for me) I was still so confused about my own marriage, but I was trying to make a point. BE NICE, BE KIND. It’s amazing how that works.
My marriage lasted another 4 horrendous years after this podcast. I never gave up seeking help, I never stopped crying out to God. I just kept hearing this same message over and over again while in my Christian circle of influence. There did finally come a point when everything fell into place and started making some sense. I stepped into the wonderful world of Google search and learned something different. I learned about something called covert narcissistic abuse. Within that same time period, I also found out that my husband was and had been cheating on me for some time.
I found out about the women, then men, then those “men” who looked to be of questionable age. I found the hidden porn addiction, the xxx job searches, alcohol, the trips out of town to gay bars, the double life. Crazy as it sounds he hid it so well no one knew, not our church family, not our friends, not my family or his. I found out about all of it in a matter of just a few weeks. I wonder if Emerson would still think my ex-husband is a “good-willed man”. (Smirk emoji) Seems in his eyes pretty much anything goes and men are still labeled good and worthy of undying respect.
I was faithful for 17 years, I stayed and put up with abusive treatment because I was raised to believe adultery was the only grounds for divorce. I was constantly told to do more and try harder and things would improve, they didn’t. I’ve been happily divorced now for over 1 1/2 years. This “Good-Willed man” put the last nail in the coffin by requesting termination of his parental rights from our three children this December. All I can feel is gratefulness that I am finally free and my children are now safe.
Please keep teaching and calling out the bad theology of these “Christian” authors and please keep teaching us good theology. People who are desperate will seek these books out and devour them to try and find help and the best thing that most of these books offer is more pain and bondage. I know I’ve read almost all of them. In 17 years I’ve come across only a few that have really made a difference in a good way. That is just sad and needs to change. I am grateful for what you all do. Thank you Conner and Keith for showing us what it looks like when real men love their women. Some of us have never seen or experienced that. Thank you, Shelia, Rebecca, and the rest of the team for putting yourself out there and taking the blowback that I’ve seen y’all endure. You are truly a gift from God to those of us who have been in a dry desert with no water for quite some time.
This needs to stop. For more on the problems with Love & Respect, please see The Great Sex Rescue, and find out why it literally scored 0/48 on our rubric of healthy sexuality teaching.
The Great Sex RescueChanging the conversation about sex & marriage in the evangelical church. What if you're NOT the problem with your sex life?What if the things that you've been taught have messed things up--and what if there's a way to escape these messages?
Welcome to the Great Sex Rescue. Order Now! Things Mentioned in This Podcast:Our wonderful sponsor the Intimately Us app! A-so-much-more-than-foreplay app. Helps you communicate about sex, have awesome bedroom games, discover what you like (and communicate about it), and more! Clean and totally non-creepy too.Our Patreon–support us for as little as $5 a month and get access to unfiltered podcasts and help support our research!Emerson Eggerichs’ original podcastConnor’s post detailing all our problems with Emerson Eggerichs’ podcast episode.Our podcast where we dissected Emerson Eggerichs’ sermons gaslighting abuse victimsOur Open Letter to Focus on the Family about Emerson Eggerichs and Love & RespectOur original series about Love & RespectPre-order The Good Guy’s Guide to Great Sex and the new and revamped Good Girl’s Guide to Great Sex–with tons of detail about the sexual response cycle (and, no, housework is not an element of the sexual response cycle, Emerson Eggerichs).The Great Sex Rescue--the book we were inspired to write when we saw how toxic Love & Respect wasOur Love AND Respect merchandise (mugs, stickers, tote bags, T-shirts, and more–because healthy people need both love AND respect).Our Duty Sex isn’t Sexy podcast, all about obligation sex and marital rape
Other Posts in our Love and Respect Series:THE MUST READ: An Open Letter to Focus on the Family about Love & Respect and Emerson EggerichsA Review of Love and Respect: How the Book Gets Sex Horribly WrongLove and Respect: Why Unconditional Respect Can’t WorkThe Ultimate Flaw in the Book Love and Respect: Jesus Isn’t at the CenterDissecting a Sermon Series where Emerson Eggerichs Gaslights Abuse VictimsDissecting a Podcast where Emerson Eggerichs Ignores Marital Rape and Says You Can't Tell if a Woman is ArousedIs It Okay if Christian Marriage Books are Just a Little Bit Harmful?Love & Respect is Being Used by the BDSM Community to Convince Wives to Submit to DominationPODCAST: Why Unconditional Respect Isn't a Thing (and how the verse the book is based on, and the survey data the book is based on, don't hold water).PODCAST: An Example from Eggerichs' blog of Eggerichs Gaslighting Women (we work through line by line)PODCAST: Dissecting Eggerichs' Love & Respect Sermons at Houston's First Baptist Church, with His Dismissal of AbusePODCAST: Our Love & Respect Wrap UpI’m Passing the Torch on Love & Respect. 10 Ways You Can Pick it UpPlus our Resource Pages:Summary Page of Issues in Love & RespectResources to let others know of your concerns about Love & Respect The Biggest Supporter of Love & Respect is Focus on the FamilyThey publish the book and heavily promote it, and promote video series with Emerson Eggerichs. They also heavily promote his book Mothers & Sons, which primes the next generation of boys to feel they deserve unconditional respect, regardless of how they act. Please consider your giving to Focus on the Family, and contact them about your concerns. Without Focus on the Family's support, the Love & Respect ministry would dwindle considerably.
The Following People Have Endorsed Love & Respect"Millions of lives and marriages – and in many ways, our whole culture – are completely different today because of the work of Emerson Eggerichs and Love and Respect ministries." Shaunti Feldhahn, best-selling author of For Women Only"Occasionally I run into somebody whose material, what they’re teaching, and the quality of the person rocks my world." Dave Ramsey"probably the most helpful [marriage book and seminar] we have ever experienced." Michael Hyatt"With his Love and Respect concept, Emerson Eggerichs has discovered what can only be described as the Holy Grail of marital counseling." Eric Metaxas"Dr. Emerson Eggerichs …is … balancing this scale [towards respect]" Dr. James Dobson"People around the world, in every kind of business need to hear this simple yet life changing message." Anne Beiler"I couldn't recommend Dr. Eggerichs highly enough. I call him the Billy Graham of marriage." Kendrick Vinar, lead pastor Grace Church of Chapel HillIf any of these people would like to rescind or qualify their endorsements, please reach out, even confidentially. If any would like a confidential conversation about the problems with Love & Respect, please reach out.
Sheila Wray Gregoire Founder of To Love, Honor and Vacuum
Sheila is determined to help Christians find BIBLICAL, HEALTHY, EVIDENCE-BASED help for their marriage. And in doing so, she's turning the evangelical world on its head, challenging many of the toxic teachings, especially in her newest book The Great Sex Rescue. She’s an award-winning author of 8 books and a sought-after speaker. With her humorous, no-nonsense approach, Sheila works with her husband Keith and daughter Rebecca to create podcasts and courses to help couples find true intimacy. Plus she knits. All the time. ENTJ, straight 8 FacebookTwitter Related Posts Theology in the Raw (Really Raw!) Plus More on FrequencyJan 14, 2022 | 15 Comments
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The post The Podcast Where Emerson Eggerichs Ignores Marital Rape appeared first on To Love, Honor and Vacuum.
