Sheila Wray Gregoire's Blog, page 2

Why Do Some “Christian” Leaders Believe it’s Better for Women to be Killed than Raped?

There’s been an alarming and disturbing conversation happening on social media lately about how women should choose death over being raped.

An abuse advocate was talking to me about it, and how scary this trend was. I then began to see it all over Twitter, and became quite alarmed myself.

Now, from the image and title alone it should be very clear, but I have a MAJOR trigger warning for this post. We’ll be talking about assault, but also about abusive responses pastors have to women’s assault.

To give you an example, Nathaniel Jolly, who is a fundamentalist pastor who was part of the SBC until quite recently when he resigned publicly because the SBC is “too liberal”, made waves in March by declaring that Bathsheba wasn’t raped, but it was merely an affair. (I’m going to share screenshots rather than the actual tweets because I don’t want to boost his engagement stats).

For more context, Jolly, though he pastors a small church in Alaska, is influential online, and is close with the Conservative Baptist Network and Tom Ascol, who ran for President of the SBC on a more fundamentalist platform. When he resigned from the SBC, he made headlines in many media outlets because of his online influence. Jolly is not the only one to be saying such things recently, but I’m going to use him as an example.

Of course people were insisting that it was indeed rape, but he negated that, saying that if she hadn’t wanted it, she would have simply chosen to die instead.

And this was the standard that he took on social media–that you should choose death over sin, and so if you don’t kill yourself, you have participated in the sin.

He culminated in this poll, where people agree you should choose death (or death) over being raped. He frames it as an affair, but he was using a circular argument–since you should kill yourself rather than have an affair, if you didn’t kill yourself, you consented, and therefore it wasn’t rape.

The definition of whether or not it was rape, then, is whether or not you allow yourself to be killed.

If you aren’t killed, it’s not rape. It’s sin, because you didn’t resist enough. That must mean you wanted it and you participated in it.

The only way to prove that it was assault, then, is to be killed. After all, if it was truly assault, as Jolly argues, then Bathsheba would have allowed herself to be killed. Since she didn’t end up dead, she must have wanted it.

I want to explore this today, because I think it’s vitally important, but warning: this is going to be really triggering!

And, yes, I still have COVID, but I want to get this post out, and this is likely all the work I’m going to do this week!

5 Facts that Are Indisputable about Rape1. God designed women’s bodies to have a good chance of surviving sexual assault.

We see two ways that women’s bodies especially were designed to survive sexual assault. First, when facing trauma, the body goes into a “fight, flight, freeze, or fawn” mode, depending on which one will protect you the most. Many women, when faced with assault, freeze up or start fawning over him, to avoid being more hurt.

Experts will tell you that you lessen your chances of being hurt during a sexual assault if you don’t fight back–UNLESS the person is trying to move you to a secondary location. In that case, it’s best to fight (I will always remember a show Oprah did on this!).

But second, women have much higher arousal non-concordance than men, meaning that our bodies can have physical signs of arousal when our minds are repulsed or devastated or terrified. In fact, some have posited that terror can actually increase some signs of physical arousal.

Why? Because when women get lubricated, it lowers the chance of tissue damage or internal organ damage. This does not mean that all women become lubricated when assaulted; it is just a recognized phenomenon that is fairly common.

God designed women’s bodies this way.

And He also designed our psyches to protect ourselves. Often during sexual assault victims experience “dissociation” where the mind seems to leave the body so you can ignore what is happening to you. This helps protect the mind from trauma, though it can be a difficult trauma response to disentangle later. 

2. Being raped is not a sin

I really don’t have much to say about this. It is self-evident. When someone does something to you against your will, it is not on you. It is on them. Period.

3. Being raped is not shameful

Though many sexual assault survivors feel shame, and that’s understandable, being raped is not shameful. That is on the perpetrator, not on the victim. The victim did nothing wrong, and so the shame is not theirs to bear. When someone rapes, they are at fault, and so all guilt and shame is on them.

4. Our choices are usually not be raped or be killed

Most rapists do not kill their victims. And if a victim fights back, it is very likely that the rapist will overpower them and assault them anyway (though self-defence classes can help!). It is not as if one can “choose death”, as it were.

5. There are non-physical ways to coerce sex

You can threaten the life or well-being of someone else. You can use psychological and spiritual coercion. I won’t belabor the point, but many are raped, even in marriage, and it looks nothing like holding a woman down while she’s kicking and screaming.

And that’s not even scratching the surface of the problems with his philosophy! What does this say to child victims to claim they should die rather than be assaulted? Especially if the perpetrator is a family member? What does this say to victims of power imbalances who are so confused and don’t understand what is happening to them?

A quick synopsis of how God sees rape:

It is not God’s will that women be killed from rape; it is not a sin to be raped; and women (or children or men, as the case may be) are the victims, not the ones in the wrong. These are indisputable.

If someone believes, then, that a woman should kill herself rather than allow herself to be raped, then what does that say about how they see women? That’s the more important question, and that’s what I’d like to look at:

 

What are the implications of saying someone should kill themselves rather than be raped?They believe that women live or die at the whim of men

Here we have a pastor declaring that a woman should choose death over the “sin” of having sex with another man, and if she doesn’t choose death, she’s in sin–meaning that she can’t really be raped.

Therefore, the pastor is deciding whether women should live or die.

But so is the rapist. If a man decides to rape a woman, even a stranger, then she now must kill herself. She must die.

So women only live at the whim of bad men. If bad men ever decide to attack a woman, then her life is over. She must end it. Men hold the keys to whether she deserves to live or not.

They believe that women’s lives are not inherently worthy, in and of themselves

Jolly was proudly stating that his wife would choose death over rape, and in the conversations that month declared that this would be the right thing to do.

So he would rather have a dead wife than a wife who had been raped. And he would rather his children be motherless.

This means that women’s lives are disposable. Women don’t deserve life, simply because they exist. They only deserve life if they prove themselves worthy.

They believe that women are merely objects

If women exist at the whim of men, and can have their right to life snuffed out by a man deciding to attack them, then women aren’t fully human. They are merely objects.

They are extensions of the men in their lives, they are not worth anything, in and of themselves.

They believe in honour killings–that being raped is the capital offence

To see all the “Christians” echoing Nathanel Jolly was chilling, because honour killings are a huge evil injustice throughout the world. Women are killed for being raped. Being raped is a capital offence in many countries.

And now they want to make it a capital offence in Christianity too, with one caveat. While in other countries they kill women after the fact, here they are demanding women kill themselves before the fact, to prove it was actually non-consensual. The end result is the same. Women deserve death for being raped.

They believe that men should be off the hook for sexual assault–though they may claim they aren’t saying this

Jolly kept claiming he wasn’t talking about rape–he was only talking about an affair. You should kill yourself rather than sin.

But here’s the thing–if you DON’T kill yourself, then you’re saying you consented. So the only proof that it was rape is your death. If you’re not dead, it isn’t really rape.

That was his whole point about Bathsheba–she couldn’t have been raped, because if it was really rape, she would have resisted unto death.

If the only proof that it was assault is that you are dead, then if you are alive you weren’t assaulted. And if you weren’t assaulted, then you aren’t a victim. And if you aren’t a victim, then there wasn’t a perpetrator.

See how convenient that is?

They believe in the Myth of the Magical Penis

Okay, here’s one that I’d like to explore for a moment, because while my other points have been talked about frequently, here’s something else under the surface that I think is going on.

I think some men believe the penis is far more powerful than it actually is. 

Why is it that some men become so insecure and incensed about a woman having had another man’s penis in her body? They think she deserves death rather than experience another man’s penis.

Why?

Okay, let’s leave this conversation for a minute and turn to something else.

What do men who think like this believe 1 Corinthians 7:3-5 means in regards to women? In those verses, Paul tells both men and women not to deprive each other. We talked at length in The Great Sex Rescue about how this does not mean “don’t deprive each other of one-sided sexual intercourse, where she feels no pleasure,” because that makes no sense. The only way she is being deprived is if sex is actually good for her–she feels pleasure; she feels intimate and close with him. If sex is merely one-sided intercourse, she is already being deprived!

 

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But we know that in marriages like these, heavily patriarchal marriages where the wife has no say in anything (seriously, just watch this video with Nathaniel Jolly and his wife and see how creepy it is with her submissive and in the background), it’s highly unlikely that she is enjoying sex. (I obviously don’t know anything about the Jollys personally, but we do know from our survey that it is very likely that in a marriage like this, where a wife is seen as subordinate, that she is not enjoying herself).

Yet men still feel that they are giving their wives a huge gift by having intercourse with them, because they are bestowing on these women the chance to experience his penis. 

Like, it’s not about whether or not she feels pleasure. It’s not about what she wants sexually. It’s merely about experiencing his penis, which is supposed to be this amazing thing.

It’s why some men send dick pics (well, aside from the shock value, and the sexual assault aspect, by exposing them to something without their consent). Some men honestly think women will enjoy this or be impressed, because they assume that women feel about their penis the same way that men do.

If this is true, then maybe the reason that rape doesn’t seem like rape to them is because it doesn’t look a whole lot different from the way sex happens in their marriage. 

They have no context for understanding a mutually intimate, pleasurable experience. They merely know what it’s like to “conquer” their wives, as Doug Wilson says, and so what’s really the difference between another man doing this to your wife?

That’s why rape is seen as an affair–because it looks pretty much the same as sex in their own marriage.

Final Thoughts on Men Who Say Women Should Die Rather Than Be RapedAll of this is happening when women are demanding justice for sexual assault

Just as the SBC is finally talking about making steps to address sexual abuse in their congregations (though I agree with Christa Brown that it is far too little, and they are not giving it the emphasis it deserves in terms of money and hiring professionals), some influential members in these circles are now putting up even more hoops for women to “prove” sexual assault took place.

I don’t think that’s a coincidence.

Men who believe this aren’t Christians.

Some of you are going to take more offence to me saying that than you are to the fact that men are saying that women should be killed rather than raped.

But we need to start saying this. What these men are saying looks exactly like honour killings, and looks nothing like Jesus. Just because someone can recite the Apostle’s Creed does not mean that they have surrendered their life to Christ and are living by the power of the Holy Spirit. Instead, they can be using Scripture to have power and control over others, using it for their own personal gain.

That is not of Christ; that is anti-Christ.

And we do not call those who are anti-Christ Christians.

When Paul said to expel the wicked man from among us, this is exactly what he’s talking about. When people show you their true colours, believe them. Don’t say, “well, I owe him honor as a fellow brother in Christ.”

No, you owe his wife honour.

You owe the women in his congregation honour.

You owe Jesus honour.

And what the wicked man really needs to know is that he is in sin, and that will not happen if we continue to coddle men who hold these abhorrent views.

If you are married to a man like this, and you are reading this, please know there are safe places to go.

If you live in Homer, Alaska, and you know the Jollys, please make sure his wife and children are safe, because they do not look like it. If you live in Moscow, Idaho, where Doug Wilson preaches stuff just like this, please tell every woman you know that if she ever needs help, you are there for her. Let’s let those who are stuck in cults like this know that they can be free.

And if you are living with a man like this, and you need help, please call a domestic violence hotline (just google “domestic violence hotline” and enter your state or country).

If you recognize yourself in these stories, please contact a Domestic Violence HotlineCanada: 800.799.SAFE (7233)United States: 1-800-621-HOPE (4673).United Kingdom: 08 08 16 89 111Australia: 1800 015 188New Zealand: 0800 456 450Kenya: 0-800-720-072Nigeria: 0800 033 3333South Africa: 0800 428 428

There is evil in the evangelical church right now. 

It will continue to grow until we excise it. And so it’s incumbent on all of us: Will we support denominations with so many people who agree with this line of thinking? Will we follow pastors who agree, or who don’t call this out? Will we follow social media accounts who espouse this, because “some of what they say is really good”? Or will we say, “enough is enough”?

What do you think? Let’s talk in the comments!

Founder of To Love, Honor and Vacuum

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The post Why Do Some “Christian” Leaders Believe it’s Better for Women to be Killed than Raped? appeared first on To Love, Honor and Vacuum.

Women, You Can Trust the Evidence in Front of You | The “All the Books” Short Film

What is the story that Christian marriage books are writing? 

We know what they’re telling–it’s right there in the pages! But what if the books we read are also a part of writing our own stories? 

It’s Rebecca here today (Sheila’s down with COVID, she’s doing fine but is quite miserable and is taking it easy) and I wanted to share this amazing short film that was made about evangelical books about sex and marriage–and they feature our research! 

Watching the video, I’ve been thinking a lot about the weeds in the parable of the sower and the seeds.

Matthew 13 includes Jesus’ parable about a sower who goes out and spreads some seeds, but a lot of them die out. Not enough soil, birds eat them before they can root, and thistles choke them out.

It’s hard not to see these books and harmful teachings as those thistles. 

What many of these books have done is it’s told women, “You can’t trust the evidence in front of you, you have to believe something else.” Some books tell women to overlook red flags like anger, controlling behaviour, or sexual entitlement so that they discount their intuition, push aside the uneasiness, and just figure “this is how men are.”

But others have also told women that they can’t trust the evidence of goodness, either. Women in love with men who have given them no reason to doubt their goodness, who are faithful and respectful, who see women as whole people, are told that they can’t trust the evidence in front of them, either, because all men have a sexual depravity that women cannot understand.

So we can’t trust ourselves if we see red flags. But we can’t trust the green flags, either.

Today I just want to say, you can trust the evidence in front of you.

Steve Arterburn is wrong–struggling to not masturbate at the sight of hot women in public is not “every man’s battle.” Feldhahn is wrong when she says your love is not enough, but that your deference to him as a man is also needed. Eggerichs is wrong when he teaches that God commands wives to be sexually available as a sign of respect with zero consideration for her sexual needs at all, her dignity, or her safety and wellbeing.

There are good men out there who are safe, who are respectful, who don’t see women as objects. And I believe that the reason these big-names and pastors cannot admit that fact is that it would shine a light on their own unrepentant mistreatment of God’s daughters. But if you are in a relationship with a man who has given you no reason to doubt, no reason to question, no reason to feel uneasy–rejoice! Be glad! Don’t allow false teachings to steal your joy.

But the other side is also true–some men are bad. They are selfish, they revel in their objectification of women, they want to use you as an object in the name of love. This is not simply “God-designed masculinity,” or whatever they’re saying today to excuse men’s abuse and sin. You are not being unsubmissive, quarrelsome, proud, or judgmental if you recognize red flags in someone.

May we raise the next generation to know and seek truth, with a lot fewer thorns in their way.

———-

Thank you Mailli Brown and Abbi Fisher for such an amazing job done on this video. I hope it impacts many people, and thank you for helping change the conversation! For more information on the short film and its creators, check out their instagram.

Blog Contributor, Author, and Podcaster

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A Beauty to Rescue or a Beauty that Rescues?

Do women long to be rescued?

I may have done a Fixed-it-for-you-too-far last night on social media, critiquing John Eldredge for calling women’s souls “a bloody mess” in the book Captivating, that he co-authored with his wife Stasi.

While most people agreed with me, there were far more than normal speaking up and saying that the book was actually really good, and I was taking it out of context.

I do have some concerns about how the book handled issues of abuse and objectification, and I may write more about that in the future (I’m not promising anything!). But I understand that many women were ministered to by the idea that God is captivated by them, and that God loves and adores them. If that’s your story, I’m really glad.

I would like to explore one aspect of the Eldredge’s philosophy in their books today, though, and just ask if it’s actually in the Bible.

I would like to ask: Is it a feminine trait to want and need to be rescued?

This is a large part of what Wild at Heart and Captivating are based on–that part of what makes us “feminine”, and part of the feminine soul, is this desire to Be the Beauty that attracts and arouses an Adam who will rescue (even though we ourselves can be warriors). And men want to do that rescuing, and that is an essential part of maleness–to want to rescue women.

I’d like to explore this a bit.

First, do women long to be rescued, or do women long for safety?

I think that many women do long for safety and to be secure, because women live in a much more dangerous world than men do. Sexual violence affects us more than it does men, and is always at the back of our minds. Women walk through life with a rape prevention strategy, thinking about dark alleys when walking home, checking the back seat of the car, scanning for threats. Life is more dangerous for women.

For many of us, abandonment, abuse, and assault by men has been a real threat and the cause of real hurt, and many of us would just like it to stop.

That longing inside of us to be safe and protected from the evil that is out there–is that necessarily a feminine trait given by God? Or is it a natural result of the sin and danger in the world?

Were women created to be the ones who are rescued?

One can make a strong case that the biblical story of creation actually has Adam who needed to be rescued by Eve. God created Eve as an ezer kenegdo, or a helper suitable and comparable to him. There is no insinuation of subordination in the language used to describe Eve, but instead an insinuation of military strength.

The word “ezer” that is ascribed to Eve was also ascribed to God numerous times in the Psalms–and often with a military connotation, like “The Lord is my help in times of trouble.”, he is our help and our shield.

But the bigger question: What story does the Bible tell about women desiring to be rescued?

If it’s part of the essence of femininity to desire to attract Adam and to captivate him so that he can rescue us, then we should see this throughout Scripture. This should be the story that Scripture tells us about the genders.

If it’s part of the essence of masculinity to rescue the Beauty, then we should also see this throughout Scripture–that men are praised when they rescue.

But when we look at the actual stories in the Bible, that is not what we see. This won’t be a comprehensive survey, because I’m doing this off the top of my head at 7:15 am, but let’s take a look at women who rescued Israel (or large numbers of others); women who rescued their families; and women who rescued themselves.

Biblical Women who rescued IsraelRahab rescued her family when she decided to help the Israelites, even though it put her in grave danger. She ended up helping the Israelites defeat the city of Jericho, and is included in the genealogy of Jesus.Shifrah and Puah were the Egyptian midwives who refused to act on Pharaoh’s order to kill all the male babies who were born, at great risk to themselves. In fact, the opening chapters of Exodus have good men strangely absent. It’s entirely the story of women working to rescue Israel on their own–the midwives; Moses’ mother; Moses’ sister Miriam; Pharaoh’s daughter.Esther approached the king at great danger to herself and made a case to save the people of Israel.Deborah judged Israel and ruled Israel and oversaw a great military defeat of their enemies.Jael tricked Sisera, the king of the enemy army, and killed him with a tent peg, freeing Israel.Abigail stood up to David in order to protect her household and her servants, and save them from being killed because of the foolhardiness of her husband.The wise woman of Sheba confronted Joab before he attacked the city, negotiated with him, and saved the city, while stopping from Joab from doing something awful and bringing guilt upon himself.The widow of Zarephath shared her last meal with Elijah, and kept the prophet alive.Naaman’s slave girl who told him about the prophet and how to be healed–and set in motion events that helped Israel.

And, as a commenter noted, Mary saved all of humanity by agreeing to bear Jesus, even when there was no guarantee Joseph would stand by her!

Biblical Women who rescued their husbands and familiesSarah lied for Abraham and protected him from being killed by foreign kings by saying that she was his sister, not his wife. She took the risk on herself to save her husband.Zipporah stood up to Moses and circumcised him and their sons to prevent God’s wrath.Rebecca understood God’s purposes for her family better than her husband, and so worked things out so that Jacob would be the one to get the blessing (though I don’t think this is a model of a good marriage, but her husband didn’t seem to hear from God).Pontius Pilate’s wife tried to warn him about what he was doing with Jesus, but he ignored her.

Biblical Women who stood up for themselves and rescued themselvesTamar deliberately tricked Judah into a compromising position so that he would do what was right by her. She stood up for what she was rightfully owed, and she was honoured by becoming in the lineage of Jesus.Bathsheba stood up to her husband to insist that David do right by her son.Ruth took initiative with Boaz to ensure her future and safety, as well as that of Naomi’s, and Naomi encouraged her to do so.The five daughters of Zelophehad stood up in Israel and demanded inheritance laws be changed so that they could inherit land as well.Vashti refused to strip and dance in front of multitudes of drunken, dangerous men, even at the cost of her status (and even life).Mary of Bethany went against custom and sat at Jesus’ feet to learn, even when others felt she was overstepping her role as a woman.The woman who was bleeding approached Jesus and touched him, though this wouldn’t have been acceptable.

Check out our Be a Biblical Woman Merch! “Be A Biblical Woman” Spiral Notebook – Ruled Line $12.00 “Be A Biblical Woman” Square Stickers $3.00 – $4.00 “Be A Biblical Woman” Unisex Jersey Short Sleeve Tee $22.00 – $25.00 In fact, when I think of biblical women, I can think of very few who are praised and remembered for doing typically feminine roles.

Rather, when I think of actual biblical women, I think of women who are praised over and over again for going against what are typical feminine roles. Actual women in the Bible are remembered for their strength and their bravery and their initiative. In fact, they are even punished for going along with their husbands when they shouldn’t have (like Sapphira). 

It was women who remained at the cross and who approached the tomb, and didn’t desert Jesus. It is women who, when Paul greets a whole host of people in Romans 16, are more likely to be mentioned because of their work for the kingdom. It is women who were appointed to be the first apostles–sent to tell the men that Jesus was risen. We remember Priscilla for teaching Apollos; Lydia for leading the first church in Europe; Mary for bravely accepting the Lord’s will for her, even though it meant public ostracism and abandonment.

This is one of the big reasons I have a problem with books that focus on gender essentialism and roles–that women do this and men do this, or God made women to be like this and men to be like that. We simply don’t see it in the characters of the Bible who are remembered for all time.

Yes, you can point to verses like 1 Peter 3:4 that praise a “gentle and quiet spirit” in women, but this is not unique to being feminine. Men are also told to be gentle (1 Peter 3:14-16, just a few verses after women are addressed; 1 Timothy 6:11-12; Ephesians 4:1-3). And men are told to be quiet and speak slowly as well! These are not uniquely feminine traits.

But often the verses that we pick out of the Bible to describe the “ideal woman” and “the essence of femininity” do not really match the women who appear on the Bible’s pages.

I believe that many women do long to be rescued–to be safe.

I’m one of those women. That is not a bad thing. To know that God sees me and wants to rescue me–that is inspiring.

But I don’t think this desire is the essence of femininity, and I don’t think that the Bible points to this. Authors may point to it, and it may resonate with many, and many may even find it helpful. But let’s be careful that we don’t make this into a bigger thing than it is. Let’s look at the women whom Scripture does praise, and see how they cover a huge range of roles, personalities, stations in life, actions, and more.

And let’s be careful that we don’t ascribe more to the “essence of femininity” than the Bible does.

Does that make sense? And can you help add to my list? What other biblical women rescued Israel? Rescued their families? Or stood up for themselves? Let’s talk in the comments!

Founder of To Love, Honor and Vacuum

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Men’s Podcast: Do You Know What Your Wife Has Been Taught About Sex?

What if your wife has been taught toxic things about sex–and you don’t even realize it?

This month we’ve been re-running some of my favourite podcast episodes from over a year ago, to allow a lot of our newer podcast listeners to hear some of the great material from podcasts past.

Next week we start a new season of the Bare Marriage podcast, and I’m excited to bring it to you!

But for today, I decided to rerun this episode of our Start Your Engines men’s podcast, focusing on what guys may not realize their wives have been taught in women’s Bible studies, books, and retreats.

Listen to the Podcast Here

Browse all the Different Podcasts

See the last regular podcast

Or, as always, you can watch on YouTube:

Timeline of the Podcast

1:00 Men usually HAVEN’T heard these same things
3:20 Reading text from real books that your wife has probably heard
5:45 “Women DO NOT have a need for sex, but they MUST always meet their husband’s needs.”
11: “Sex is ONLY physical for men, and ONLY emotional for women.”
14:15 “You can NEVER say no to sex, even if you would rather shove him off (which is a normal feeling cause you’re a woman and don’t want sex)”
19:10 “Don’t bother aiming for her pleasure if it becomes too complicated or difficult.”
25:50 “Wives MUST tell their husbands they are great lovers…even if they’re not.”
29:00 “Your husband will lust after every woman he ever sees.”
37:30 RESEARCH. Just because someone is ‘lower status’ doesn’t mean they are always complaining
40:10 One woman’s interesting experience with the problematic men’s teachings on lust
44:30 Ending with some encouragement!

Don’t miss our original post with more information about this podcast!

 

What if you're NOT the problem with your sex life?

What if the messages that you've been taught have messed things up--and what if there's a way to escape these toxic teachings?

It's time for a Great Sex Rescue. Buy it on Amazon! Where Else Can I Buy It? Things Mentioned in This Podcast:The Great Sex Rescue: Our new book, that looks at how harmful some of these messages have beenSupport our research by joining our Patreon group! Even for as  little as $5 or $8 a month!Our “Do All Men Struggle with Lust” podcastOur open letter to Focus on the Family about Love & Respect (at the bottom of this post is links to all of the other things we’ve said about this book)The study on complaining and maladaptive worry and status

Founder of To Love, Honor and Vacuum

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When Parents Enable Adult Children To Be Moochers

Adult children can seriously take advantage of their parents–and seriously be moochers.

 

Sheila here!

A few weeks ago I started rerunning an important series I wrote six years ago about handling family dynamics as parents age and require care. 

We’re moving the blog to a new domain in the next few weeks (BareMarriage.com is coming!), and we’re only bringing posts from 2018 forward with us. But there were some older ones I wanted to save, so I’m rerunning some of them now.

Six years ago, when we were discussing caring for senior parents, many comments centered on the fact that what made this difficult was that many parents were spending so much of their limited income supporting kids and grandkids who should be caring for themselves. And it was building resentment in other kids.

Rebecca wrote this observation, as a newly married millennial, and I thought I’d rerun it today.

Sheila Wray Gregoire

Rebecca here!

We began our series talking about what it’s reasonable for senior parents to expect from their adult children, because many parents in their golden years are asking far too much of their kids. But then a woman wrote to me with the opposite problem–what about when adult children expect far too much from their parents, and their parents enable it?

 

What do you say about when the older generation continue to do the basic Life Responsibilities for their adult children (things like loaning money for houses, loaning money for cars, buying cars in their name but for the “child” due to bankruptcy problems of the child?) Also, what about expecting things like babysitting and shopping trips and lunches and “partying” at a moments notice – often a VERY short moments notice, even when the child makes much more money than the parents?

That’s a great question, and my mom asked me to jump in since I’m the generation that is often doing this!

I’m at the stage of life where everyone is getting married. 

Seriously–I’ve told my husband Connor that we’ve got to cut it off at three weddings a year pretty soon, because we always seem to be involved in decorating or helping in some way, and it’s getting exhausting!

But because of that, the topics of conversation among all my friends revolve around how to move forward together and pursue your goals. And what I’ve noticed is that the couples who are trying to do it mostly on their own are far stronger than the others.

Helping your kids can sometimes actually set them up for failure.

I know that helping your kids seems like the nice thing to do. But the nice thing and the good thing aren’t always the same thing. Let’s take a look at the “paying for houses” issue for a moment.

There’s a reason banks require a down payment. It’s not because they’re mean–it’s because if you can’t afford a down-payment, you likely aren’t financially ready to be a home-owner. You won’t have savings in place in case the furnace goes or the roof goes.

Homes are expensive. There’s mortgage payments, property taxes, and don’t get me started on upkeep costs and unexpected repairs. Connor and I are currently saving for our first house, but I know we’re nowhere near ready right now to actually buy, even if the down-payment was completely given to us for free.

If you step in and take care of the payment before your child is ready to save up the money his or herself, how can you be sure they’re even ready to be a home-owner? It’s one thing to chip in to help with the down-payment if (a) it doesn’t eat into your retirement fund and (b) you’re topping up what your child has already saved, but when parents pay for these huge purchases for their kids they take away the responsibility from the child.

It’s not a bad thing to have to live in a small apartment for a while. Connor and I are currently in a two-bedroom basement apartment here in Ottawa, and plan to have our first kid here. The first three and a half years of my life were spent in a 2-bedroom apartment in downtown Toronto, while Daddy was doing his residency.

If your kids want to move into a nicer place, they should be the ones to sacrifice and save for it. Not you. 

When parents give money to their adult children, it can set up a really bad dynamic in the family.

Usually what happens is that the irresponsible kid gets all the help, money, and attention from mom and dad and the responsible kid is expected to make it on his or her own.

So you’re in essence punishing the kid who went out and got a good job, saved money, and made responsible decisions because that kid doesn’t get the payout but watches his/her sibling make bad decisions and get fished out of trouble again and again.

This doesn’t only apply to money–it can be babysitting, a place to live, food, really anything. If your actions are enabling a child to make bad decisions, whether it’s to use you as free child care so they can party, not work, or live at your house rent-free–that is really unfair to other children and other family members.

People need to be held accountable to the choices they made

If you scrimped and saved all your life, were a good employee, and made decisions that added value to your life, the consequences are going to be pretty  good!

But if you decided to never work hard at any job, blew all your money on partying or cars and houses you couldn’t afford, and never saved for retirement? Well those consequences aren’t so fun, but are really important to feel. 

What often happens, though, is that parents freak out seeing their kids heading towards doom and destruction and they swoop in to save the day.

But then their kids just do the same thing next week. 

When we swoop in, we “disrupt the law of sowing and reaping”, as the authors of the great book Boundaries explain. God set up the world so that a basic law of human behaviour is that “you reap and what you sow” (Galatians 6:7). That’s how people are supposed to learn. When you disrupt that, then people stop learning. (Mom has more on setting boundaries here).

If you’re always available for babysitting whenever your kids need you last-minute because they want to party or go to a friends’ house, or if you co-sign loans and mortgages with them, or if you give them money to cover spending debt, you are not allowing them to feel the consequences of their actions. In fact, what you’re doing is actually saying, “these are good things to do, because you have mom and dad to help you out.”

Speaking as the kid in the situation, sometimes the best thing parents can do to help their adult children is to back out and say, “Sorry, you got yourself into this mess. We will be there to help you make a plan to get out on your own, but we can’t do the work for you.” 

The reality is, you will feel the consequences of your decisions, as well.

And it’s not selfish to say, “No, I can’t help you because I am saving for retirement.” You worked for 18 years to prepare this kid to be an adult. Now, they’re adults, and it’s their decision if they want to actually grow up or not.

But it is not your responsibility to keep taking care of them like they’re still children.

Helping with that last part of a down-payment they’ve been saving for, babysitting on weekends so they can have a break, or even coming over to help your child with cleaning and cooking when your grand-kids are young can be such a blessing when your kids are responsible and understand the true cost of such acts.

But when your kids aren’t acting like adults or aren’t making responsible decisions, doing things for them can create a sense of entitlement and reinforce negative behaviors.

So many parents sacrifice everything for kids who aren’t willing to lift a finger to help themselves. A close friend works with a bank and is often asked to review loan applications from people who are trying to cosign on a mortgage or line of credit for their children, and often he says no because the parents simply can’t afford it without emptying out their retirement fund.

If you drain your financial and emotional resources to try and keep your kids’ head above water when they aren’t being responsible themselves, that will affect you. You won’t have a retirement fund, you will be exhausted, and you’ll be stressed. No, it’s not fun to leave a kid to face his or her actions–but it is important, and it can end the negative cycle of destructive behaviors. Some family friends of ours found themselves in this position–they never got to enjoy their retirement because their kids kept coming over and taking groceries, money, and whatever else they needed. Their parents had become their personal convenience store/ATM.

Enabling your adult child’s irresponsible behavior is not the way to help your grandchildren

When I was growing up, I had a friend whose parents never once took her to a doctor’s appointment. She went, but it was always her grandparents who took her. Her parents worked normal hours, had plenty of time to hang out with friends or coworkers after work, but somehow never brought their daughter to her yearly check up.

This started when she was a baby, and for the rest of her life I don’t think her mom (parents eventually divorced and the mom raised her) ever brought her to a check up. And my friend grew up feeling like she never really belonged. Her mom loved her as much as she ever had to, but the grandparents took care of everything so she never had to actually think about her kid. And she just stayed selfish instead of learning how to be a good mom.

At heart, you either think your child is a fit parent who is just lazy and a little selfish, or you think that your child is an unfit parent. In my friend’s case, it truly was the former. Her grandparents didn’t help matters by doing basic parenting tasks that were really her mom’s job. If your child is seriously unfit to be a parent, then it’s time to get child protective services involved. But if they aren’t dangerous, just a bit immature, it’s time to let them feel the weight of being a parent and let them grow up.

Child protective services will often place a child who is being neglected with you. And it’s often less stressful to raise a child yourself than to constantly be worrying about that child if they’re living with an unfit parent. So if your child is unfit, tell your child, “I am raising my grandchild for a year while you get your life sorted out, and if you don’t agree, I’ll just call child protective services. But right now you aren’t coping without me, and that’s not right.” In other words, go all in, or don’t do it all. But don’t enable your child.

Being told “no” is never fun. Telling your kids you’re no longer their ATM machine likely won’t be fun for them to hear, either. But even though it might be uncomfortable, it is so important in the big picture.

People get away with whatever they can get away with! So why not stop the cycle? Why not start creating boundaries that encourage responsible behavior instead of mooching? The long-term effects will be worth it.

Thanks, Rebecca!

I just want to echo what she said about setting up this dynamic where all the focus, money, and time in the family goes to the adult child who is irresponsible, rather than the ones who are doing the right thing. I’ve seen this again and again, and it breeds serious resentment and a really bad dynamic. And it often starts when the kids are teens. So be careful! Love your children who don’t seem to need you as much, too. They deserve it.

And what if you’re the good kid, and your parents are pouring money and energy they don’t have into another kid? The hardest thing is that you may not be able to change this dynamic. But talk to them about it. Ask if this is best for the long-term, for everyone involved. And make sure that they’re not bleeding their bank accounts dry. 

Sheila Wray Gregoire

Have you had any problems with adult children mooching? How did you handle it? What if it’s a sibling? Let’s talk in the comments!

The Aging Parents SeriesParents: You Owe Your Adult Children a LifeSetting Boundaries with Aging ParentsSplitting Responsibilities for Aging Parents with Your SiblingsWhen Parents Allow Adult Children to Be Moochers Making Sure Aging Parents Have Their Affairs in Order (and you do, too!) (coming soon)

Blog Contributor, Author, and Podcaster

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What if Your Husband’s a Missionary or Pastor and He’s Using Porn?

What do you do when your husband is in the ministry and you catch him using porn?

I wrote about this years ago, and wasn’t planning on writing about it again, but last night I had this overwhelming urge to post this on Facebook:

If you are married to someone in ministry, and they are addicted to porn…you do not have to keep their secret.

Someone needs to hear that tonight.

Yes, it may endanger your livelihood. It’s scary. But it will not heal unless it’s brought out into the open. And this secrecy, double life, and betrayal is slowly killing you.

Sheila Wray Gregoire

Facebook

That had a lot of traction, so I thought it was time to revisit what to do when ministry and porn collide.

A few years ago a woman wrote in with this scenario:

I am mulling over how to reconfront my husband this time. I’ve done the tears. I’ve done the cold clinical confrontation. I’ve done the angry confrontation. Nothing changes because he won’t get accountable and he always says its the last time and I always believe him.

My problem is that we are both in ministry, and although I know this only compounds the urgency with which this problem deserves to be handled, I can’t get past all the what ifs of what could happen if this comes out.Job termination, needing to change housing or possibly even return to our home country. We are missionaries. We are practically alone on the field. There are children who would have no caregivers.

Sadly, in some ways I care more about the children in our care then the state of our marriage, or so it would seem since my mind dwells there more than on what is going on or not going on between us.

Porn makes this wonderful, fun, talented, extroverted, anointed man into a gloomy, unkind, withdrawn person. I believe his exposure to it at a young age via his uncle plus the loss of his father and two brothers make him vulnerable to a cycle of shame secrecy and grief. But he never tells me, he waits to be caught.

We are in a high stress and strong spiritual warfare environment, and I am sometimes harsh and overmanage things. I also do not feel as sexually motivated since discovering the porn issue less than a year into out marriage while pregnant and already feeling vulnerable about the changes in my body and in our marriage. Add exhaustion from the environment we live and work in. Nevertheless I don’t think that those are justifications for what is biblically equated with adultery.

First, I want to reassure this woman, and other women reading, that you are not alone. Porn is a huge struggle, even for men in ministry (and perhaps ESPECIALLY for men in ministry). We know that about 50% of married evangelical men currently have a relationship with porn.

This can’t be tolerated. I’ve written before about how to handle porn use in marriage, and how you need to draw boundaries and take a firm stand. I’ve talked about a porn triage, or how you can tell if he’s serious about recovery or not. But today I want to concentrate on the ministry aspect of it. I know a lot of women don’t speak up because they don’t want to ruin the work the work that they’ve been doing for God, and their entire livelihood (even home and country) are at stake. If they speak up, they may have to move. They’d lose income. It would be a disaster.

This isn’t fair. It isn’t right. You’ve worked hard too, and this shouldn’t be happening to you.

But tragically–it very well may be. So let’s just think through the spiritual aspects of this.

Our main goal in this life is to glorify God.

We are to grow closer to Him. To look more and more like Him (Romans 8:29). Our goal is not to bear fruit; our goal is to abide in Him (John 15). It’s God that bears the fruit, and not us. Our goal is to stay close to God.

So don’t think that if you are involved in ministry that this somehow outweighs a responsibility to do the right thing. I can totally hear this woman’s struggle–“but what about this ministry? What about the kids? If I do something about this, I’ll end up hurting them! Isn’t the ministry more important?”

No, I don’t believe it is. If he continues to use porn, he is endangering his own spiritual condition. And that needs to matter. That needs to be our #1 responsibility.

Our ministry will not be effective when there is sin present in the leaders.

Over and over again in the Bible we see where the people were punished for the sins of the leaders. I’m not saying that God will punish the ministry because of what your husband is doing, but there is no doubt that the Holy Spirit cannot use your husband as he should when your husband is engaged in a huge, secret sin. So not saying anything in order to save the ministry is likely to backfire. The ministry itself will grow better when there is truth and when there is light.

Jesus tells us not to take lightly our responsibility to make sure that the little ones around us do not stumble. That may sound like He’s saying, “don’t rock the ministry boat if the kids will be hurt”. But I think that ultimately truth is still truth; and God wants light shone on things. He doesn’t like things being covered up. And when we confess, and uncover sin, God does an amazing work. That work can spill over onto the ministry.

I think deep inside you know all this. You’re close to God, and you sense that He will protect you and protect the ministry. But it’s still a scary thing. Listen to that still, small voice calling you to the Truth.

It is ultimately God’s ministry, not yours.

Right now you likely feel as if you are indispensable, and if you tell people of your husband’s addiction, the whole ministry will fall. If that’s the case, then there’s more going on here than just your husband’s sin. It’s God’s ministry, not yours. Remember that Paul set up churches all over the Roman world, but then he moved on. He didn’t stay where he was, thinking “these people will fall away if I’m not here.” He believed that God would raise up leaders when they were necessary.

This is God’s ministry. He cares about these people. He will fight for them. And He will fight for you, too! If you both want to be used by God, God will honour that. It just may not be in the way that you’ve always planned. But trust that with God at the head of whatever you are doing, He will ultimately bring about the best for all when we step out and do the right thing.

Your Marriage and Your Ministry will Wither in the Dark

That being said, staying in the dark, keeping a secret, will only hurt your marriage and your ministry in the long run. Our God is a God of light, not of darkness. He likes confession, and truth, and transparency. That’s where His grace can fall. That’s where we can see radical transformation. If we try to keep everything inside, and hide it from others, then we’re being proud. And “pride goes before a fall”. God can’t work in us when we’re keeping secrets.

Many Ministries Have Confidential Programs to Help Porn Addicts

Quite frankly, this is such a huge issue that if everyone who uses porn was automatically fired from the ministry, there would be very few left. So what many ministries have started to do is to establish confidential programs where people can go for help and accountability, to see whether healing is possible or likely.

It is so difficult to find anyone to talk to about your problems when you are in ministry, because the very presence of problems seems to jeopardize your job. But many denominations and missions organizations are employing these “care teams” to help deal with exactly things like this. Get on the phone or the internet and investigate whether you have such a team to report to. These teams are used to dealing with these things, and will help map out a plan which may–or may not–involve leaving the ministry.

If your husband has been involved with things that are illegal, like watching child pornography, or even talking to young girls online, you simply must report it. I know it’s hard to go against your husband, but those children need to be protected. Yes, you’re endangering the life that you envisioned for your children. Yes, your extended family may be angry at you. But you will never, ever be at peace when this is happening, and your husband could continue down a road where he may do something truly horrific. Don’t stand by and watch. Stand up for those children now.

The Merry-Go-Round of Promising Change and Failing Again Has to Stop

Porn rarely gets better on its own, without your husband having help. He can’t just white-knuckle-it through. He has to understand what the roots to his porn addiction are; he has to deal with the shame that it has brought; he has to be able to be transparent and vulnerable to others. That transparency is pretty much essential to healing, and I don’t know of anyone who has really healed of porn who wasn’t transparent.

So if he’s saying, “I’ll stop, but you can’t tell anyone, and I won’t tell anyone,” well, it’s very unlikely he’ll stop. He may not even intend to stop! He may just be giving you empty promises.

At some point, you need to decide that empty promises aren’t enough. You need to realize that you are worth more than that–that you do not have to be chained to a man who uses porn just so you can be in a ministry you’ve dreamed of. God can use you in any situation, whether the marriage is saved or whether it is not.

Now, a few warnings about disclosing your husband’s porn use.Because porn use is so rampant, those in leadership may not take it seriously.

At this point, porn use is so widespread that many denominations and missions organizations have come to accept it, and if you make a big deal out of it, you may be told that you are endangering the ministry.

If that is the case, that is good for you to know. It is essential that you know that where you are is not emotionally or spiritually safe. If your husband is using porn, you’re likely already walking through a cloud of confusion and blame and shame. Now you know that you’re also being spiritually abused by the leadership, since they are not protecting you or prioritizing your well-being. That helps you make decisions more clearly–though it’s also tragic.

Those in leadership may try to blame you.

Like we found in The Great Sex Rescue, the idea that porn use is caused by wives refusing to have sex is EVERYWHERE in our evangelical culture. We  heard Jim Daly on Focus on the Family blame porn use on a wife not having enough sex (more on that in The Great Sex Rescue). Steve Arterburn in Every Man’s Battle called women methadone for their husbands’ sex addictions. Gary Thomas and Debra Fileta in Married Sex (which was published just in 2021!) encouraged women to send nude photos to their husbands so that neurologically they’d be drawn to your naked body instead of other naked bodies.

It’s awful.

What if you're NOT the problem with your sex life?

What if the messages that you've been taught have messed things up--and what if there's a way to escape these toxic teachings?

It's time for a Great Sex Rescue. Buy it on Amazon! Where Else Can I Buy It?

Disclosing may bring another pile of guilt on you. That doesn’t mean you have to accept it. As we definitively showed in our study, a wife is not responsible for a husband’s porn use.

Again, if you are being blamed, this shows that where you are working is not safe and there’s time for a change.

They will likely try to take your work away from you.

In many ministry marriages, the husband is the face of it while the wife does just as much, and often more, work than he does. Often the ministry is just as much yours as it is his, and even more yours than it is his.

But given the nature of how evangelical institutions work, it’s very unlikely they will see it this way. It’s very likely that instead of saying that you can continue on your own while he is removed, they will require both of you to leave. So what you built up will be taken from you.

This isn’t fair. But remember–your giftings and passion remain, and God will be able to use those in a different way that is safe for you. What is happening now is not safe for you.

Get your ducks in a row first.

As one woman warned on Facebook last night:

Reminder to be careful tho that sometimes actions taken that expose or set boundaries can also push an abusive spouse further, so consider safety plans, and realize not everyone is trustworthy with the info, meaning prepare yourself with some documentation and consider who to tell. Whether about porn, infidelity, abuse. Possibly talk to an abuse or trauma advocate first, a trusted friend, then consider how to let a church or ministry organization know what you’re dealing with. And realize you may not be believed or get the support you would hope for.

Get Ready to Fight

To fight for what’s right. To fight for your own safety and security. To fight for your husband’s soul.

The latter isn’t in your control. But by doing nothing, you know the porn use will get worse. Doing something is the only way through.

At least it will clarify things. That’s scary, though. There’s so much at risk. So get some trusted friends around you who won’t blame the porn use on you and who care about you. Get involved in online communities like Sarah McDugal and Leslie Vernick on Facebook. See a licensed counselor, even if you have to do so online, to get you ready.

And again–I’m so sorry. This is so wrong. You should not have to go through this.

Just please know–you’re not alone. So many women have experienced this. And you are worth more than this.

What do you think? Let’s talk in the comments!

Founder of To Love, Honor and Vacuum

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So the wet towels anecdote from Love & Respect has gone big on social media this week. And I...

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When Are Wet Towels on the Bed More than Just Wet Towels on the Bed?

Did you know that 45,000 receive an email from me every Friday with a round-up of things from the blog and social media that week?

To make sure you don’t miss anything?

And that email is usually written by Rebecca, with an extra insight or thought into where the conversation has gone.

I thought last week’s email was especially good, and wanted to share it with you, since not everyone is signed up for my email list.

And remember–you can sign up anytime, too, so you don’t miss anything, AND so you’ll get even more great content like this article!

So here’s Rebecca:

Sheila Wray Gregoire

I (Rebecca) was talking to my mom about this wet towels discussion we’ve been having on social media this week, and I have a theory.

First off, if you’ve missed what is going on, Sheila posted about the Love and Respect example of how Emerson Eggerichs leaves wet towels on the bed and the end conclusion of the anecdote is that Sarah Eggerichs just learned to stop asking her husband to not leave wet towels on the bed after he says he didn’t miss her because of her nagging when she left for a week.

It’s gross.

Then Sheila posted some boundaries people suggested a wife in this position could draw to help change the dynamic in the relationship so that she isn’t being exploited anymore. (You can see those here.)

But we had some people saying things like, “I can’t imagine blowing up a marriage over such a small thing.” Or “Just put the towels in the hamper, I don’t see the big deal.”

So I have a theory.

I think that people who really don’t seem to understand the problem with a husband being thoughtless about things like this fall into one of two camps.

First, there’s the group of women who have truly internalized the message that it is a woman’s job to serve men, including cleaning up after them, and this is simply how the world should work. This would be an example of internalized misogyny–he gets to treat her worse than he treats other people because she is his wife. It’s pretty obvious where these ones go wrong, so we’re not talking about those for the rest of this newsletter.

But second, there’s women who genuinely don’t understand that their marriage is fantastic and not normal.

Let me give you an example.

I had a brilliant friend in university who was studying chemistry. Many of her courses would have “extra credit” questions on exams, so that people had a chance to make back lost points. For this friend of mine, though, it often meant she ended up getting a 106 on a paper or a test because she would have gotten a 97-100 even without the extra credit.

Now, the way grades worked at our school, everything 90+ got the same end grade for your cGPA (10). So getting a 104 grade doesn’t actually change anything–you have 14 points to play around with before you actually start seeing your GPA drop. And it makes sense, since frankly someone who got a 92 generally does understand the material just as well as someone who got a 98 or a 100. So there was this idea of as long as you show you really understand the material, you get full marks on your transcript.

Doesn’t matter if you got a 90 or a 102, what matters is it’s clear you understood the assignment and could follow-through.

So think about a marriage that is really, really great and is founded on equality, trustworthiness, and friendship.

You can rely on each other, neither is overwhelmed or being exploited, but he leaves his clothes on the floor. Or maybe she collects coffee cups on her night stand. Or maybe one of them forgets to change the toilet paper roll.

If you’ve got 14 points to play around with, you’re probably just not going to care. Because it doesn’t matter, you’ve got a good grade. So you can cluck your tongue, toss the sweatshirt into the hamper, and laugh and move on with your day. You’ve got the wiggle room because you’ve demonstrated that, on the whole, your relationship is founded on really understanding the assignment of what goes into a healthy marriage.

At that point, the towels on the floor are simply taking you from a 100 to a 96. Or a 104 to a 92. Sure, it’s a mistake. But it’s not one that changes the overall feeling of the marriage. If you make enough of those little mistakes, yeah of course it would. But when it’s just a few little things, it really can be brushed off because it’s not emblematic of a larger pattern.

But what about someone whose marriage doesn’t have that base of excellence? What about a marriage that isn’t founded on understanding the basics of what goes into a healthy relationship?

What about a marriage that isn’t starting off with 100 points, but rather is starting off barely passing at a 54?

For marriages like these, something “small” like wet towels on the bed is a big deal because it’s emblematic of a larger issue–entitlement, laziness, inconsideration, or more. When I got back a test in university where I got a 96, I typically didn’t really bother myself stressing out over the lost 4 points because I figured a quick refresh would be all I needed. But if I got a 67 on a test I hit the books.

We need to recognize that marriages are not all the same.

Leaving wet towels on the bed is always a “mistake” the same way that a wrong answer is a wrong answer. But its impact is different based on the context of the relationship.

I think this hits the nail on the head! And I wanted to make sure that those of you who aren’t signed up to our emails still got a chance to see it.

And I wanted to invite you to sign up as well!

Sheila Wray Gregoire

So what do you think? Does this make sense to you, and what would you add to explain why the towels bother some people and not others?

Blog Contributor, Author, and Podcaster

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The post When Are Wet Towels on the Bed More than Just Wet Towels on the Bed? appeared first on To Love, Honor and Vacuum.

Let’s Talk About Wet Towels on the Bed

So the wet towels anecdote from Love & Respect has gone big on social media this week.

And I wanted to share it with you!

As some of you may remember, I’ve been appalled at what Emerson Eggerichs said in his book Love & Respect (again, the most used marriage study in North American churches) about how he would leave wet towels on the bed, and his wife would ask him to stop. When she went away for a week with their daughter, Emerson and his sons enjoyed having her gone, and he told her that when she returned. They liked not being reminded to clean up after themselves.

He told  her she was being disrespectful, and she learned her lesson and stopped asking.

I don’t know what made me think of this this week–I think someone sent me a graphic from their Facebook Page (I’ve been blocked, so I don’t see it), but I decided to post about it on social media.

And it went big, and I wanted to make sure you all didn’t miss it!

I started with this graphic:

 

Can we PLEASE do something so this stops being the #1 used marriage study in North American churches?

This has to stop.

My ministry completely changed direction the day I sat down and read Love & Respect. Until that day, I figured, “I love Jesus, these authors love Jesus, we must all be saying the same thing!”

Nope. We’re not.

Love & Respect scored 0/48 on our healthy sexuality rubric, while the Gift of Sex by the Penners scored 47/48.

Definitely not saying the same thing.

On our survey of 20,000 women for The Great Sex Rescue, Love & Respect was named the most harmful resource.

Churches, we can do better.

See our open letter to Focus on the Family about Love & Respect to understand more of the problems with it (if the wet towels didn’t do it well enough).

See it on Instagram See it on Facebook I followed that up with a testimony about Love & Respect. 

On Tuesdays on their social media, they post a testimony of someone who benefited from Love & Respect.

Someone sent me last week’s (come to think of it, I think that’s what got me started on all of this this week!), and it said this:

“Love & Respect was revealing in our marriage. I thought my husband was the problem, when it was me that was the problem. I had to change me. I had to respect my husband and treat him the way he desires. I needed to submit to him the way Christ asks me to submit to Him. That changed everything!”

I asked on Facebook if anyone noticed any red flags with that, and we had a huge conversation!

On Twitter I also reminded people that Emerson Eggerichs thinks men have a need to be in authority over women:

Another friendly reminder:

Love & Respect literally thinks that men have a "need" to be in authority over women.

They think this is a God-given need. pic.twitter.com/Y7llGaREGZ

— Sheila Gregoire--The Great Sex Rescue is here! (@sheilagregoire) July 21, 2022

What if you're NOT the problem with your sex life?

What if the messages that you've been taught have messed things up--and what if there's a way to escape these toxic teachings?

It's time for a Great Sex Rescue. Buy it on Amazon! Where Else Can I Buy It? What would you have done with the wet towels?

Then I decided that it was worth a bigger conversation about how to deal with the wet towels. That conversation is still going strong as I post this!

So what SHOULD a wife do if her husband leaves wet towels on the bed and won’t stop?

For the last few days I’ve been talking about a ridiculous and infuriating part of the book Love & Respect, where author Emerson Eggerichs talks about how he left wet towels on the bed, his wife asked him to stop, and he felt this was disrespectful. The resolution was that she stopped asking.

On Instagram, I’ve had people tell me–“but she was in sin by nagging.”

First, nagging is not a sin. Second, it is not nagging to ask someone to stop doing something that is wrong.

But regardless, how else could this be handled? What are boundaries that she could draw with what she’s willing to do or put up with that can help this not become her constantly asking him to stop doing something childish.

Let’s brainstorm! I’ve got some ideas here, but I’d love yours in the comments.

1. She could put the wet towels in a pile on the floor on his side of the bed (leaving them on the bed, even if on his side, can make the bed mildewy and i don’t think that’s a good alternative).

2. They can buy different coloured towels so that it’s obvious which are his. She never hangs up his towels or washes them unless they’re in the hamper.

3. She can announce, “If you’re going to make the bed mildewy or gross, I’m going to start sleeping in the guest room.”

4. She can create a pile on the floor on his side of the bed where everything gets put–his dirty clothes; his clean clothes; anything he leaves on the floor. She can say: I’m happy to do laundry and put it away (assuming she does most of the housework), but I only do laundry that’s in the hamper.”

In other words, if your spouse leaves laundry and clothes all over the bed or the room, you do not have to clean them up. It is okay to say, “I deserve respect, and my work and time deserve respect.” So if you tend to do the laundry, you don’t have to do it unless it’s in the hamper.
What other ideas do you all have?

UPDATE: Many are saying she needs to be direct and likely get counseling. I completely agree–I’m just assuming that she has already been direct (“please stop leaving wet towels on the bed”). But I agree. That should be the first step, and this couple would desperately need counseling with a counselor who DOES NOT recommend Love & Respect.

Sheila Wray Gregoire

Facebook

See it on Facebook!

A couple of things I do want to say based on the conversation on Facebook.

If it was ONLY the wet towels, and it was just a small thing in marriage, it really wouldn’t have been a big deal. Rebecca’s writing more on that line in our weekly email that goes out today–make sure you’re subscribed!

The problem comes when this is part of a pattern of disrespectful behaviour on the part of the husband towards the wife, which this clearly is (since he labels her asking him not to do something unsanitary that ruins their bed as being disrespectful TO HIM, and he chronically ignores the request).

A few others were saying that what I was suggesting in passive aggressive. It’s not. It’s simply setting a boundary of what you’re willing to do. You may be perfectly willing to do laundry, but you may not want to be treated like a maid. So you’re not going to pick up stuff that people leave on the floor. That’s not passive aggressive; that’s a boundary.

And if you announce these and let him know, that’s honestly fine.

I also had a lot of comments along these lines:

I just can’t help feeling that if a marriage is like this—if the wife is having to decide how best to handle behavior that I personally wouldn’t tolerate in a 5-year-old…then is it really a marriage?? Or does she have an extra child, but one she can’t discipline, correct, or reason with? And why on earth would a man think this was attractive? What woman would want to have sex with a man who acts like a child?

Couldn’t agree more!

I think what makes me the most flabbergasted about the wet towels in Love & Respect is that Emerson Eggerichs seems to have no insight on how bad this incident makes him look.

Others have told me that in their video series they use this example too, and he’s very smug about it.

The complete lack of insight that this makes him look very, very childish is astonishing to me. Does he live in such a bubble that he doesn’t know that most couples actually expect to treat each other well, and for their partner to act like an adult?

The number of women commenting that he sounded like a child–and does he not realize that women don’t want to have sex with a man who is acting like a petulant child–was HUGE. That’s the primary response. We’re doing a series starting in October (we have others first in August and September) where I’ve got a bunch of new peer reviewed studies to share with you about how this type of attitude can affect libido within marriage for women. Women may actually have a strong sex drive on their own, but when they’re married to a man who is acting like a child, they have no desire for him. It’s fascinating.

I wonder if this is part of the reason that so many marriage books portray women as having no sex drive? When the books act like it’s okay for men to act like children, is it any wonder that women lose their libidos? Fascinating stuff.

Anyway, that’s it for this week.

I’ll continue my conversation about how to get things in place to make dealing with aging parents easier next week–and thanks to so many in the comments this week with some great thoughts! (especially appreciated Boone the lawyer with some good ones!). But I just thought you all should see the huge outcry on social media about the towels for now. It’s been quite the ride!

And now let me know what you think: What would you do about the wet towels? Why was he able to get away with this anecdote for so long? Let’s talk in the comments!

Founder of To Love, Honor and Vacuum

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The post Let’s Talk About Wet Towels on the Bed appeared first on To Love, Honor and Vacuum.

Duty Sex Isn’t Sexy: Our Podcast Take 2!

Let’s talk obligation sex–and how it’s a terrible libido and marriage killer!

This July I’m rerunning some of my favourite podcast episodes from about a year and a half ago or two years ago, to help those who have recently joined the podcast or blog catch up and make sure they didn’t miss anything big!

We’re back in August starting a series on stories you just need to hear.

This week, I wanted to rerun this episode on obligation sex!

 

Listen to the Podcast Here

Browse all the Different Podcasts

See the Last “Start Your Engines” (Men’s) Podcast

Or, as always, you can watch on YouTube:

 

Timeline of the Podcast

1:00 What does research say about the ‘Obligation Sex’ message?
7:35 The difference between biblical sex and duty sex
11:05 Why frequency isn’t the problem, and why we have authority of OUR OWN bodies
18:35 RQ: “Do I owe my husband Valentine’s Day sex?”, with guest Andrew Bauman
27:37 RQ: “My husband wants it TOO much!”, + a discussion on consent
35:50 Benjamin Young joins us for a grea discussion on consent and marriage
51:10 Join ‘The Great Sex Rescue’ launch team!
52:30 Sheila shares her personal story of how the obligation message hurt her

Our Guests: Andrew Bauman and Benjamin Young

We talked with counselor Andrew Bauman, who has been on the podcast before, about why we shouldn’t talk about Valentine’s Day sex as something that she “owes” him just because he bought her flowers or took him to dinner (despite what some other blogs may say). And then I invited Benjamin Young on to talk about an epic Twitter thread where he was talking about consent!

See my original post, with more info, that went along with this podcast here. 

What if you're NOT the problem with your sex life?

What if the messages that you've been taught have messed things up--and what if there's a way to escape these toxic teachings?

It's time for a Great Sex Rescue. Buy it on Amazon! Where Else Can I Buy It? The Obligation Sex Debunking Posts

Some posts that have also dealt with obligation sex and coercion

The Duty Sex Isn't Sexy Podcast10 Times You're Allowed to Say No to SexObligation Sex, Consent, and Marital Rape PodcastYes, There Can Be Rape in MarriageThe Body Keeps the Score: How Obligation Sex Affects PainThe Book I Drowned in the BathtubIs Sex a Need or a Drive?5 Steps to Get Over the Obligation Sex Message

And check out The Great Sex Rescue--with two chapters looking at where the obligation sex message has been taught, what our survey of 20,000 women told us about how it affected us, and what we should teach instead.

Things Mentioned in This Podcast:Andrew Bauman’s site, and his book The Sexually Healthy ManBenjamin Young’s Twitter Thread: and his ministry Guard the GiftPre-Order The Great Sex Rescue! (It launches March 2!)Our Previous Podcast on Marital Rape and Consent10 Times You’re Allowed to Say No to Sex

What do you think about obligation sex? Is the message changing? Are people hearing? Let’s talk in the comments!

Founder of To Love, Honor and Vacuum

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AGING PARENTS: Splitting Responsibilities with Siblings

What if aging parents need help, but only one child lives near them?

This week I’ve been rerunning a series I did a few years ago about caring for aging parents. I originally started the conversation by accident, with a little bit of a rant on 3 things parents should do to make it easier for their children to care for them eventually. After the comments came in, I followed up with thoughts on how to draw boundaries about what you will and won’t do for your parents.

Today I want to talk about a different relationship: sibling relationships.

Even if your relationship with your parents is difficult, one day they may need care regardless. And what do you do if only one child lives near them–and your other siblings live far away?

I’d like to tell you a story about my grandparents.

My grandparents retired in their mid-60s in the early 1970s. At the time, one of my aunts was just married and getting set up in southern California. My mother and her other sister lived in Toronto. My grandparents decided to retire in Kelowna, which is in British Columbia, a four hour plane ride from Toronto (more, really, because it requires a stopover somewhere). That was their first mistake–moving far away from family. (I talked about that in the original post!)

They were fairly healthy, and my grandfather used to walk several miles a day. But out of the blue he had a massive stroke. My aunt in Toronto flew out immediately. She’s a doctor, and she could be the most help. She also had two little girls at the time–1 and 3. But my mother was a single mom to me, and I was 7. My mom couldn’t leave her job. My aunt Alison could.

Over the next few months they made arrangements to move my grandparents to Toronto. My grandfather was badly affected by the stroke; he was paralyzed on his left side, and his speech was difficult. He had spent his life as a choir director and voice teacher and he could no longer sing. (His speech eventually came back; his singing voice didn’t.) But my grandmother was still relatively fine. They moved into an assisted living apartment where she could care for him.

In 1980 the family faced a difficult decision. My cousin Danielle, who was 4 at the time, had severe asthma. The doctors advised my aunt and uncle to take her out of Toronto for her health. So they moved three hours out of the city, leaving my mom as the only child now near my grandparents.

My cousins and me with my grandparents in 1990

Over the years as my grandmother’s health deteriorated too, they eventually had to go into a nursing home. My grandmother actually passed first. My grandfather lived another ten years, living 25 years after a massive stroke.

And in that last fifteen years or so of his life, my mother visited them every single Saturday (except when we were on vacation). Think about that: every single Saturday, she went to see her parents. And it wasn’t easy–it required a long subway ride and an even longer bus transfer. Toronto’s a big place!

Once parents are in a home, they need kids to visit them even more.

When kids visit, then the people at the home know that this person is watched, and so they get cared for better. And besides, the home may keep you alive, fed, and clean (barely). But they don’t ensure that you have things to do or that you aren’t bored out of your mind. For my grandfather, it was a constant struggle to find ways to read (it was hard with bad vision and only one hand to hold a book and turn pages), and to find things to listen to or figure out how to use a TV.

But my mom sometimes needed a break. And she couldn’t do everything. 

So here’s the arrangement she worked out with her siblings:

Mom visited every weekend and just took care of daily things.Her physician sister who lived three hours away came in during the week to do all medical and dental appointments (which were frequent) because she had a more flexible work scheduleThe sister who lived in California flew up for a week every year and took Grandpa on lots of errands and did all the special things that had been building up (like finding a new TV that he could operate).

That way my mom got a bit of a break. But since she lived closer, she did do the bulk of the care.

If you’re the sibling who lives further away, please help!

I watched my mom dedicate every weekend to her parents for years. It was a HUGE toll on her. The fact that her sisters helped made a big difference.

If you have aging parents and you have a sibling caring for them, please offer to help. If you have to give up a week of your vacation time, yes, that’s a sacrifice. But if your sibling is giving up weekends and evenings, they need a break, too.

Divide up finances fairly

Another issue is that the sibling who cares for mom and dad is typically out of pocket quite a bit. And they also often miss out on general fun things that most people get to do. The sacrifice is pretty immense.

So it’s important for siblings to talk now, rather than after the parent passes, about finances. Will the sibling who cares for the parents get more of the inheritance? Can the sibling use some of the parent’s income now to pay for expenses? Have those awkward conversations. And do be generous.

And maybe one sibling isn’t able to physically help very much, but they’re willing to pay for an aid to come in at times. That can be a help too.

What if you need help and your siblings won’t give it?

And here’s the hardest scenario: What if you were like my mom, but unlike my mother, your siblings didn’t want to help? And it truly is all on your shoulders?

Maybe there’s a house that needs to be cleaned out. Maybe your mom has been living with you but you can’t handle it anymore. Now what?

I know this is hard, but you can’t force a sibling to help.

Don’t commit to helping your parents to a certain degree, assuming that someone will pitch in. Only commit to what you can do, assuming that you get no help whatsoever. That’s hard, but it is reality.

I’ve known people to take a mom with Alzheimer’s into their home for a year, assuming a sibling will do the same thing a year later. But not all siblings are able to do that, especially with their own family situation. And some may decide it’s just too much of a disruption.

Sometimes siblings have really good reasons for not helping, too. I think of one of my friends who was severely abused by her mother growing up, and lived mostly in foster homes. She has no relationship with her mother today–but her older sister does. And her older sister is caring for the mother, and often wants help. This mother, however, injured my friend far more than she injured the older sister. For my friend’s psychological health, she needs to stay away. 

My mother-in-law would have loved to have helped her mother at the end of her life, but she lived 20 hours away, had four small boys, and couldn’t drive there. They visited when they could, but it was impossible to do more without moving (and there were no jobs back home).

Some siblings have more family or work responsibilities than others, and it’s very unusual that you’d be in a situation where each sibling will do the same amount with the parents. Usually one is more able. Instead of asking, “are we all helping mom and dad the same?”, a good question to ask is, “does one of us have a lot more free time than the others?” If one sibling isn’t helping, but they’re also working more than 40 hours a week while trying to care for toddlers, they may be doing all they can physically do.

Sometimes your siblings think your parents don’t need that much help.

There’s one other issue: sometimes siblings honestly don’t think parents need that much help. And sometimes the siblings are right. In my grandparents’ case, they did need help if they were to have a good quality of life. But as we discussed last week, sometimes parents are asking unreasonable things of their kids. If your siblings decide to draw boundaries, and say no, that is their prerogative. Maybe you feel too guilty to do that. But perhaps you should listen to your siblings, too.

Sometimes, as well, a sibling may think that the parents belong in a care facility rather than at home (or living with you). They may not be willing to help keep the parents in a house if they feel the time has come for the parents to go elsewhere. If you’re battling with guilt over forcing your parents to go into a home, you may take on a huge amount of responsibility. But if your siblings are standing firm, that is not their fault. They may have a point. If you can’t keep things together without your siblings’ help, but your siblings say they’ll only help under certain conditions, maybe you should sit down and listen to your siblings. They may be right.

Okay, that’s a lot of different scenarios! I hope I covered most of them. But tell me what you think: do you find care for aging parents to be lopsided in your family? What do you do about it? 

Are you the sibling trying to get other siblings to draw some boundaries? Are you the sibling trying to get other siblings to do more? Let’s talk in the comments!

The Aging Parents SeriesParents: You Owe Your Adult Children a LifeSetting Boundaries with Aging ParentsSplitting Responsibilities for Aging Parents with Your Siblings Making Sure Aging Parents Have Their Affairs in Order (and you do, too!) (coming soon)When Parents Allow Adult Children to Be Moochers (coming soon)

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What Does “Husband is Head of the Wife” Mean? And Are We Reading Hierarchy into It?

Jul 12, 2022 | 52 Comments

Hey, everybody! Keith and I have been on vacation this week, just camping and hanging out and...

Unveiling a Ten Year Project: Plus Serving a God Who Knits Everything Together

Jul 11, 2022 | 48 Comments

On the a vacation we took just over a decade ago, I started knitting a blanket. It was what...

She’s Someone–Plus Priming for Abuse

Jul 8, 2022 | 32 Comments

Can we talk about how our messages about a woman's role can actually undermine her safety? Just a...

PODCAST: Let’s Revisit the Logical Inconsistencies of Unconditional Respect

Jul 7, 2022 | 7 Comments

Unconditional respect isn't a thing. And yet we're often told that men need unconditional respect,...

AGING PARENTS SERIES: Setting Boundaries with Aging Parents

Jul 19, 2022 | 15 Comments

How do you set boundaries on how much help you can reasonably give to aging parents? This week I'm...

Parents: You Owe Your Adult Children a Life

Jul 18, 2022 | 36 Comments

If you need your adult children to eventually care for you, then that should factor into an...

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