Sheila Wray Gregoire's Blog, page 6
June 3, 2022
Daniel Akin, President of Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, Weaponizes 1 Corinthians 7 Against Women
And not just that, but you have no business leading an SBC (Southern Baptist Convention) seminary where future SBC pastors are trained.
But that’s exactly what Daniel Akin did. (For reference, Daniel Akin is also on the board of the Council of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood.)
Let’s take a quick look at 1 Corinthians 7:3-7 for a moment–and yes, I’m going to add in the later two verses that we often forget about. These are the famous “do not deprive” verses:
The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. I say this as a concession, not as a command. I wish that all of you were as I am. But each of you has your own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.
1 Corinthians 7:3-7, NIVThis is advice to BOTH the husband and the wife, and the key theme in this passage is utter mutuality. Nothing is given to the husband that was not also given to the wife. In fact, this is the only time in Scripture that authority in marriage is explicitly talked about, and when it is, it’s completely mutual.
But Daniel Akin–again, a president of an SBC seminary–wrote an article called “The Bible and Sexuality” which appears in the Holman Christian Standard Bible, where he weaponized these verses against women.I created a Fixed It For You of that this week:
Think about the mental twisting and total bias you have to bring to that passage to phrase it as only a command to wives–and specifically a command to be “sexually available.”
Does he not know how icky a phrase “sexually available” is?It turns her into a prostitute. She’s available for sex on demand. She must be ready to let him use her whenever he wants.
And it’s totally passive, too. Sex isn’t something that she participates in; sex is something that is done to her. She’s just a receptacle. And somehow he got that from a passage which was completely and utterly mutual.
Seriously, the only way that you can translate it that way is if you think that women are meant to serve men, and you interpret absolutely everything through that lens. Oh, and if you totally misunderstand sex too!
But Daniel Akin isn’t the only one to do this. As we said in The Great Sex Rescue:
From The Great Sex Rescue Too often, though, books portray that verse and the surrounding ones as applying only to men. Fred and Brenda Stoeker’s Every Heart Restored even says this: “Sure, men are promised regular sexual release by Scripture. But by the same token, women are promised that their husbands will treat them with honor and tenderness (1 Pet. 3:7).” Let’s look more closely though. Notice something interesting about that passage they referred to about men’s needs? They forgot to mention that it’s directed at both spouses. If they use that verse to show women they need to give their husbands “sexual release” (i.e., orgasm), then by their own logic, they should have charged men with the same responsibility to bring their wives release too.
When people hear 1 Corinthians 7 quoted, for some inexplicable reason they think it promises men that wives will give “release” and make themselves “sexually available”, and completely ignore the mutuality of it.
That’s a big thing we talk about in The Great Sex Rescue, in our section on how it’s actually women who are most likely to be deprived!
What if you're NOT the problem with your sex life?What if the messages that you've been taught have messed things up--and what if there's a way to escape these toxic teachings?
It's time for a Great Sex Rescue. Buy it on Amazon! Where Else Can I Buy It?Why would so many authors and seminary professors and pastors teach on 1 Corinthians 7 this way?
I actually think the root of it goes to completely not understanding sex, let alone women’s sexuality.Think about it: You can’t possibly make such a glaringly bad, biased, and inaccurate translation of 1 Corinthians 7 if you believe that:
Wives want orgasmWives CAN orgasm, and SHOULD orgasmWomen want sex sometimes tooSex is about more than just a man’s physical release, since it’s also be an intimate experienceWomen can be active participants in sexMen should do foreplay and spend time pleasing their wivesWomen have the right to say no when they are not interested, since sex is to be totally mutualYou simply could never read 1 Corinthians 7:3-5 and summarize that passage by saying “God commands women be sexually available to their husbands” if you believe any of the above things. Even if you SAY you believe some of these things, and even write some of these things down, if you still summarize the passage saying that it’s a command to women to be sexually available, you can’t really believe them. It’s like when you say things because you know, in the political climate, you have to say them, even if you don’t believe them.
Thinking that this is a command JUST TO WIVES to be “sexually available” negates everything else. Anyone who actually believed these things could never summarize the passage that way.
That means that Daniel Akin, Fred and Brenda Stoeker and Steve Arterburn, and many others, must actually believe:Women don’t really orgasmOrgasm is not important to womenWomen don’t want sexSex is only focused on a man’s physical release, and true intimacy and closeness isn’t a part of sexWomen aren’t really active during sex, but mostly just let him use herForeplay isn’t a thingWomen have no right to say noWe dealt with all of those terrible beliefs in The Great Sex Rescue, by the way. And I wish Daniel Akin could at least read our chapter on when obligation becomes coercion, since he apparently doesn’t think women can say no.
If anyone wants any more reason to not attend an SBC seminary, I think that’s a pretty good list. And remember: SBC pastors are being trained in an environment where this is how sex is seen. This is how women are seen.
All I can say is, “how dare they!”
Is it any wonder that the SBC been so reticent to do anything at all about sexual abuse?
They see sex as a male entitlement and a female obligation. So why would they treat abuse any differently?
Lord, have mercy.
What do you think? Let’s talk in the comments!
Sheila Wray Gregoire Founder of To Love, Honor and Vacuum
Sheila is determined to help Christians find BIBLICAL, HEALTHY, EVIDENCE-BASED help for their marriage. And in doing so, she's turning the evangelical world on its head, challenging many of the toxic teachings, especially in her newest book The Great Sex Rescue. She’s an award-winning author of 8 books and a sought-after speaker. With her humorous, no-nonsense approach, Sheila works with her husband Keith and daughter Rebecca to create podcasts and courses to help couples find true intimacy. Plus she knits. All the time. ENTJ, straight 8 FacebookTwitter Related Posts At the End of a Week of Sorrows: Feed My LambsMay 27, 2022 | 18 Comments
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The post Daniel Akin, President of Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, Weaponizes 1 Corinthians 7 Against Women appeared first on To Love, Honor and Vacuum.
June 2, 2022
PODCAST: Is Sex a “Yes Space” for Men? And What Does that Do to Women’s Libido?
And if so, how does this affect libido?
It’s been a while since Rebecca and I recorded a podcast where we just talked about what we wanted to talk about, rather than having everything all planned out. So welcome to our conversation about something Rebecca’s passionate about–yes spaces!
In parenting, a “yes” space means creating an environment for your toddlers where you’re not constantly telling them to stop, or saying “no”. So you get the dangerous stuff out of reach, you fill the room with all kinds of stuff they’re allowed to play with, and then they can explore and you can relax because you’re not always saying “no”.
What if we’ve made marriage and sex a “yes space” for men? We’ve got some funny examples including makeup brushes and testicles, wet towels, and kids who only belong to the mom.
And how does all of that affect women’s libido? Listen in!
Browse all the Different Podcasts
See the Last “Start Your Engines” (Men’s) Podcast
Or, as always, you can watch on YouTube:
Timeline of the Podcast
0:45 What is a ‘Yes’ space?
3:20 The ‘Yes’ space with Christian sex lives
12:10 Our goal should be growth
33:30 Where is the slant in the advice?
40:20 “But isn’t this unfair to men?”
43:15 The oral sex debate
51:45 So how are we called to sacrifice?
We cover:
The makeup brush on his testicles advice from Gary Thomas’ book Married SexThe slanted oral sex advice–where it’s always pressuring HER to give it to HIM, even though she’s far more likely to find orgasm easier through oral sex. (Like to him it’s a bonus; to her it’s more the main thing).The idea that “Erica has four children” while her husband Timothy “helps” herHow we can tell if mental load is slanted too far in one directionMore evidence that the debate is slanted in the way Married Sex talks about how we sacrifice with regards to sex: she sacrifices by having more sex she doesn’t want; he sacrifices by having as much sex as he wants, but making sure she enjoys it and also talking to her more and helping out a little bit at homeThe priority of male orgasm vs. female orgasm in how we talk about what’s fair with adventurousness and sexTo explain what we mean by Yes Spaces, let me tell you about the makeup brushes.This is advice that’s given by Gary Thomas in his book Married Sex, which he co-wrote with Debra Fileta (this particular advice is in his chapter). He’s explaining how to manually stimulate a man, and in very erotic language he talks about using a silk scarf or makeup brush on the guy’s testicles.
Now, we’re not against this in the least. But to assume that it’s okay to take her makeup brush–which needs to be sanitary in order not to spread a staph infection, and can be quite expensive–and just use it on his testicles is a little much. It shows that he thinks anything she owns is fair game for his sexual pleasure.
If he had said, “head to the dollar store and buy some cheap brushes and have some fun!” that would be great. But to not even think about how that advice will affect women shows that women’s perspectives and experiences aren’t being considered. And why use her silk scarf on his testicles instead of his silk pocket square or silk tie? Again, nothing wrong with using her silk scarf. But remember that some are expensive and require dry cleaning!
We just laughed at this in the book, and explained how we see this throughout so many books.
And then we ask: Can we change this?
This month we’ll be looking at what kills women’s libido. And we wanted to have a fun conversation where we just rant about some stuff that’s been bothering us to get the ball rolling! The Orgasm Course is Here to Help You Experience Real Passion!Figure out what's holding you back. Open the floodgates to orgasm.
Tell Me More about It! I Need that Now! Things Mentioned in This Podcast:The Great Sex Rescue, based on our survey of 20,000 womenThe Orgasm course! Our review of the book Married Sex by Gary Thomas and Debra FiletaThe podcast where we talk about postpartum sex adviceThe podcast where we talk about mental loadThe podcast where we look at how to talk about sex without getting erotic or titillating!
I truly think we can change this “yes” space idea just by talking about this more. What do you think? Do you have hope? Have you seen this phenomenon? Let’s talk in the comments!
Sheila Wray Gregoire Founder of To Love, Honor and Vacuum
Sheila is determined to help Christians find BIBLICAL, HEALTHY, EVIDENCE-BASED help for their marriage. And in doing so, she's turning the evangelical world on its head, challenging many of the toxic teachings, especially in her newest book The Great Sex Rescue. She’s an award-winning author of 8 books and a sought-after speaker. With her humorous, no-nonsense approach, Sheila works with her husband Keith and daughter Rebecca to create podcasts and courses to help couples find true intimacy. Plus she knits. All the time. ENTJ, straight 8 FacebookTwitter Related Posts PODCAST: The Porn Triage–How to Tell How Likely Recovery Will BeMay 26, 2022 | 21 Comments
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The post PODCAST: Is Sex a “Yes Space” for Men? And What Does that Do to Women’s Libido? appeared first on To Love, Honor and Vacuum.
June 1, 2022
Is Evangelicalism Wrecking Women’s Libido?
Welcome to June, everybody!
And in June, our focus is going to be on libido, asking the question: “What’s killing women’s libido?” Now, I know there’s a sizable minority of women with the higher libido, and I’ll devote some time to that as well.
But one of the biggest issues I get asked about is how to revive your libido when it’s been lagging so long.
A few years ago we created a Boost Your Libido course, and we’re massively overhauling it with all of our new data as we speak, so that should be available in a few weeks. (And those who have already purchased it will have access to the full, updated course!). So we’ve been thinking about this question a lot behind the scenes of the blog lately–what specifically is killing our libidos?
We’ve got a number of theories, but right at the top of it is how we talk about sex.Next Monday I’ll write about all the ingredients to a healthy libido, but I want to start with just the way we frame the issue.
Yesterday afternoon I shared this on Facebook:
People who keep supporting Love & Respect apparently think it’s okay to write an entire chapter about sex saying that women are obligated to give it or their husbands may stray, and never once mention that women should feel pleasure too.
How is it possible that so many people don’t see a problem with that? Or think it’s just an innocent oversight?
Sheila Wray Gregoire It still completely blows my mind that people think it’s okay to talk about sex and NEVER ONCE mention women’s pleasure.How do people not see the problem with that?
Yesterday a comment came into the blog in response to an older post about how to talk about men’s sexual needs in a healthy way (instead of all of this obligation stuff that wrecks women’s view of sex). I thought it was really insightful. She writes:
These mainly male pastors (and authors) that have been spreading the message of “wives do not deprive your husband” have basically been shooting themselves in the foot for years now. Do they not see that pushing this message IS NOT HELPING THE SITUATION?!?! How, it might be, ummmm… making it worse?? The mutual aspect, meaning the first part: “The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife” is either glossed over OR do these men think that by simply “putting it in until the man climaxes” IS giving their wives their “dues”. Like, just by having intercourse, the man fulfilled his part of 1 Corinthians 7??
Yes, we all get it. Men love sex… but maybe women would love sex (MORE) if the message was changed from “this is for him” to “this is for both of you.” And not with the typical “sex is a gift from God” because I can attest, there were YEARS when that gift for me was that ugly sweater that got shoved to the back of the closet and never worn. The message has to be mutual. For women to love sex, they can’t feel that it’s their duty. They can’t feel obligated. They can’t feel like if they don’t have sex, their husband is going to cheat on them or watch porn. They can’t feel negative pressure to simply have sex when they don’t want to. They can’t be made to feel like the husband’s needs are more important than their own. I mean, it has to be true mutuality.
I don’t know if these pastors/authors thought that if they didn’t make women have sex out of fear or coercion that they wouldn’t have it? Unfortunately, their message is backfiring… big time. Maybe they should have used the opposite message?
I don’t recall many sermons about sex over the years. My husband grew up Catholic and NEVER remembers hearing about sex in church at all. Yet, he’s the one that had the idea how he was owed sex as soon as we got married.
So the message needs to change and I HOPE AND PRAY through people like Sheila, there will be a shift.
I thought that was perfect. Just perfect. And that’s really what we were trying to say in The Great Sex Rescue, too! If authors want women to have more sex, then stop talking about sex like it’s such a duty and obligation and entirely for the guy, and start making sure that it’s good for her too!
What if you're NOT the problem with your sex life?What if the messages that you've been taught have messed things up--and what if there's a way to escape these toxic teachings?
It's time for a Great Sex Rescue. Buy it on Amazon! Where Else Can I Buy It?But the commenter brings up something I’ve long thought, and considered saying on a podcast, but I’ve been too chicken to. But I wonder this ALL THE TIME, and Rebecca and I talk about it behind the scenes too:
“do these men think that by simply “putting it in until the man climaxes” IS giving their wives their “dues”. Like, just by having intercourse, the man fulfilled his part of 1 Corinthians 7??”
I wonder if these male authors think, and excuse the crassness here (this is why I’ve been afraid to say it) that their penises are so amazing that simply by letting the woman experience his penis, he’s giving her his dues? Like she has the privilege of experiencing his “manhood”, and what more could she want? Because his manhood is so amazing?
I just can’t think of any other reason that they would talk about sex the way they do.Do they honestly think intercourse where she doesn’t climax and where she feels basically nothing is still an amazing “gift from God” for her? Because otherwise how could you write an entire chapter on sex, like Emerson Eggerichs did in Love & Respect, and never once mention that women should feel pleasure?
Yet it’s not just male authors who do this. Both Shaunti Feldhahn and Stormie Omartian received low marks on our healthy sexuality rubric because they didn’t talk about women feeling pleasure either.
Here’s what we said in The Great Sex Rescue about a passage from Shaunti Feldhahn’s book For Women Only:
From The Great Sex Rescue Instead of saying “no man should be satisfied unless his wife is also regularly satisfied,” too many books have said, “men feel more satisfied if their wives are satisfied, so wives—make sure you’re satisfied,” without any charge to him to care for her needs. The responsibility for her satisfaction is put solely on her—and not even for her own sake, but for his. Instead of telling men to satisfy their wives for their wives’ benefit, women are told to make sure they’re satisfied for their husbands’ benefit. This is really backward.
In the book For Women Only, Shaunti Feldhahn warns wives that just having sex is not enough—men need to feel wanted. “Having a regular, mutually enjoyed sex life was critical to the man’s feeling of being loved and desired.” But then, in that same chapter, Feldhahn says, “If responding physically is out of the question, let your words be heart words—reassuring, affirming, adoring.” The wife has to affirm her husband, even if he is not tending to her needs in bed. Feldhahn does acknowledge that some women will have a hard time responding physically, but then she frames this as being a personal issue that may need counseling rather than the far greater likelihood that he has never learned to prioritize foreplay or her pleasure. We find it problematic to tell a woman she must enjoy something without also telling her that she can expect him to make it enjoyable.
So it isn’t just the men that are peddling this. It’s women too.
As we start this month talking about libido, I want to start by saying loudly: if there is how you were taught about sex, it would be a miracle if you DID have a higher libido!And again, that’s not to disparage those who do have high libidos. That’s wonderful! It’s good to want and desire sex, and I hope we can raise everyone’s libido this month.
But I want to reassure women who have always seen sex the way our commenter says: that ugly sweater you hide away in a drawer. Sure, technically it’s a gift, but it’s one you didn’t ask for and you would have referred chocolate truffles. No wonder you feel that way! Seriously, no wonder!
That’s really what The Great Sex Rescue is all about. These authors of all of these books keep trying to tell women how important it is to have more sex because their husbands desperately need it, and in doing so they’re simply making the problem worse because they’ve misdiagnosed the problem. It’s not that women don’t understand how much men need sex. It’s that women have never been encouraged to see sex for them too–and men haven’t been taught that women’s experience matters as well!
As we concluded in our final words in The Great Sex Rescue:
From The Great Sex Rescue For years women have been told from church pulpits, “Men need sex, and you need to give it to them or you’re depriving them.” And what’s happened? A crisis in libido and sexual satisfaction among women.
This approach doesn’t work. Authors and pastors can double down on it if they’d like; they can say women need to understand men, and they can talk about how much men need sex and how men struggle with lust and how women need to help them out.
What we’re saying in this book is that women do understand men. We know men need sex. Yelling louder about that won’t help.
What we need now is for men to understand women.
If men understood women’s need for intimacy and women’s need to experience pleasure, and if churches started talking about mutuality, we would awaken women’s libido and sexual response.
We believe that the time is ripe for that new conversation. And we believe that this new conversation is about not only how we see sex and marriage but how we see relationships in general. Let’s stop talking about entitlement. Let’s stop talking about rights and hierarchy and power. Let’s put Jesus, who came not to be served but to serve, back at the center.
Spur one another on to love and good deeds (Heb. 10:24). And take heart, for he has overcome the world (John 16:33).
That’s the conversation I’m hoping to have in June about women’s libido.Let’s figure out all the ingredients to a healthy libido, and get rid of all this toxic teaching that has been actively hurting us.
And as we go through this, one final thought:
It’s okay to be angry and it’s okay to grieve what’s been taken from you by these teachers and by Christian leaders.Sometimes we need to grieve and feel that anger in order to get to the other side. Sex was meant for you too. You were meant to enjoy passion, to be carried along, to desire that intimacy in every way. But instead all too often it was turned into an ugly obligation where your needs were erased. That wasn’t okay. It really wasn’t.
And I hope that in June we can try to right that wrong.
What do you think? Let’s talk in the comments!
Sheila Wray Gregoire Founder of To Love, Honor and Vacuum
Sheila is determined to help Christians find BIBLICAL, HEALTHY, EVIDENCE-BASED help for their marriage. And in doing so, she's turning the evangelical world on its head, challenging many of the toxic teachings, especially in her newest book The Great Sex Rescue. She’s an award-winning author of 8 books and a sought-after speaker. With her humorous, no-nonsense approach, Sheila works with her husband Keith and daughter Rebecca to create podcasts and courses to help couples find true intimacy. Plus she knits. All the time. ENTJ, straight 8 FacebookTwitter Related Posts The Southern Baptist Convention’s Sexual Abuse ReportMay 24, 2022 | 26 Comments
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The post Is Evangelicalism Wrecking Women’s Libido? appeared first on To Love, Honor and Vacuum.
May 31, 2022
ATTACHMENT SERIES: How Can You Grow a Healthy Attachment Style?
It’s the last day in May, and so I want to wrap up our posts about attachment styles. I’m so glad so many of you have found this concept helpful; it’s really changed how I see the main purpose of marriage advice for sure!
We’ve talked about how we can have different attachment styles, some of which are secure and some which aren’t. And everything’s on a spectrum, too! You can have a mostly secure attachment style, but still have some things to work on.
As we talked about in our podcast with Milan and Kay Yerkovich, authors of How We Love, our attachment styles can cause a lot of friction and distance in marriage. If a Pleaser (someone with an anxious attachment) is married to an Avoider (someone with an avoidant attachment style), then you’ll have this recurring conflict where the pleaser wants to share everything and try to convince themselves the relationship is secure by becoming super close, but the avoider feels threatened and cornered when feelings come up, and so this causes them to retreat even more. And so on, and so on.
We’ve done a good job this month diagnosing the problem. But what do you actually do to fix your attachment style?Well, let me tell you a story. For about eight years now I’ve had recurrent back pain. It’s not there all the time, but it’s triggered when I spend a day on my feet. It’s always the exact same muscles on my right side that spasm, and the constant spasming makes my heart rate increase and my breathing super shallow and it’s awful.
I thought it was due to poor posture (I have awful posture), but it’s always on my right side. And recently I’ve realized that I walk wrong.
On my right side, my foot is always slightly turned towards the right, rather than pointing straight ahead. When I walk, my hips sway to the left, and then back to–centre. They don’t sway to the right (or only slightly). It’s only a really small difference, and you wouldn’t even notice it to look at me, but in examining things closely I’ve figured this out.
So I’m going to a physio appointment tomorrow, and I’ll likely have to get orthotics, but I’m excited because we may actually have a solution and a plan! I don’t want to become debilitated as I get older, so this is great. I know I’m messed up, but it’s a huge relief. If there’s a REASON that my back does this, then I figure there’s a potential solution too.
When you think about it, though, I can sum up the problem, and the treatment, like this:
What I naturally do, that feels completely normal to me, is hurting me. I need to learn how to walk again–I need to forget what I know about one of the most basic things that we do, and I have to start consciously doing it differently.
It’s going to be difficult, because it’s going against everything I feel is natural and normal. It’s going to take time and effort to develop new muscles. It’s going to feel weird and wrong for a long time.
But if I want to live life to the full where I’m not in pain, I don’t have a choice. There is no other way forward.
That’s what it’s like with attachment styles too.
Trying to grow out of unhealthy attachment styles and develop healthy ones means going against what you feel is natural.It’s going to feel awkward and wrong. But there is no other way forward!
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“Be A Biblical Woman” Unisex Jersey Short Sleeve Tee $22.00 – $25.00 Let me summarize today the plan the Yerkovichs lay out in How We Love about how to grow your attachment style (or love style as they call them).They call it the Comfort Circle. It’s composed of “new steps” in the dance that you tend to dance with your spouse, where your unhealthy attachment styles hit up against each other, causing distance.
Instead, we’re going to seek to understand the emotions that are below the surface, and bring healing to that area of the person’s life so that they feel bonded and connected. What causes attachment styles to be so difficult to break is that we are always trying unconsciously to repair distance, but we do it often in the wrong way, because we don’t understand the source of the distance.
So Avoider styles run away from feelings because they learned that expressing feelings causes others to withdraw from them. They learned to cover up their feelings and ignore them. Pleaser styles may not share their real feelings, but may morph into something else to try to get someone else to like them, but end up hiding themselves. And so on.
How do you break these patterns? You learn how to bond properly with your spouse. And that’s where these steps come in.
Many of us don’t remember receiving comfort as children. But what if our spouses could give that comfort? We don’t remember being seen and understood as kids. But what if our spouses could see and understand us? Wouldn’t that change everything?
And if you could be totally honest with your spouse, and your spouse still loved you, wouldn’t you finally feel accepted and loved?
The Comfort Circle has 4 new steps to learn, but they grow that bond to help you feel connected.It looks like this:
The Comfort Circle Steps1. Seek Awareness
Partners discover their feelings, underlying needs, and triggers.
(Basically, you learn about why your partner has this love style, and what often causes them to disengage, clam up, or panic. What are their man feelings when this happens?)
2. EngagePartners decide to bring their new awareness into the relationship.
(Once you understand why you do the things you do, practice being a safe person and being honest with each other).
3. ExploreThe speaker shares while the listeneer clarifies by asking further questions. The listener responds with understanding, validates the speaker’s feelings, and offers to meet the needs of the speaker after asking the question, “What do you need?”
(Practice extended listening and helping your spouse understand new things about themselves, just as you understand more).
4. ResolveResolution brings relief. The speaker offers some closure, which may involve negotiation, problem solving, compromising, owning, confessing, and forgiving. Sometimes it involves comfort and nurture. The speaker’s needs are met or deferred until an agreed-upon time.
(Learn how to support and encourage each other, analyze and solve problems, and feel closer).
Milan and Kay YerkovichHow We Love has several chapters dedicated to what these steps mean and practically look like, and I can’t summarize them all, but they’re really good and highly practical!
I’d like to focus on just one to show you what I mean: Extended listening, which falls under the “Explore” step.
Extended listening helps you understand your spouse, and helps you draw out what they’re really feeling so they understand it too.Here’s how it works: Make one of you the speaker and one of you the listener. They explain listening as similar to kung fu lessons. They report how in kung fu you often have to hold a position for several minutes. For the first few you don’t really feel it. But then you REALLY do, and that’s where the real work, and real benefits, come in. And once you practice holding that pose, your endurance builds.
Listening is like that. You’re not focusing on responding or being understood yourself. You’re merely going to keep listening and asking clarifying and probing questions, to the point where it almost seems awkward, because it’s once you’ve pushed past the resistance that the real work is done.
Here’s a story that describes how this worked in their own marriage:
I could tell Kay was distraught, and I knew she was processing some feelings about her past. I took he rhand and said, “We need to talk; I can tell you are really upset.” So we sat in the middle of the bed together and rayed briefly for wisdom. I said, “What hurts the most inside? You can say anything you want, and I’ll listen and try to understand.” What happened next was as incredible as it was nerve-wracking. Kay sat there for at least ten minutes without saying a single word. an introvert who processes thoughts and feelings internally, Kay was reviewing things, going over them with deep sighs, and staring out the window.
My biggest challenge was to keep my mouth shut and allow the silence to continue indefinitely. Man, it was oppressive. When she finally did speak, it startled me. She then began a catharsis that covered years, places, people, and events. When she shared about events or situations, I asked her to tell me more. If she talked about a person, I said, “Pretend I am that person and say to me what you would like to say to him or her.” Man, it was hard, and it was disconcerting. I had never seen that much emotion come from Kay. I felt as if I were caring for a child with the flu as I dodged projectiles and tried to comfort her as she thrashed and kicked.
My emotions were all over the map. I felt strength, concern, terror, sympathy, lack of control, compassion–all the while I was repeating inside, “Help me, Lord!” Eventually after ten hours of this–okay, just kidding; actually it was only about an hour–Kay let me hold her, and she cried in my arms. I laid her down on the bed, and she soon fell asleep…I also felt closer to her than I ever had. I felt I had seen her soul.
Milan and Kay YerkovichNow, not all sessions are like that! But I tell that story to show that it wouldn’t have happened had they not spent 10 minutes in silence at the beginning.
Sometimes it may not be silence that’s needed, but probing.
If you’re the speaker, use a feelings word bank to try to explain how you feel if you just can’t get a word beyond sad or angry.If you’re the listener, learn how to use clarifying questions (there are lists of them) like “what happened next?”, or “how did that make you feel?”Use validation statements to help your spouse feel seen and heard.Because isn’t that what we all want?
And you can ask those clarifying questions and use those validation statements even if your spouse doesn’t want to talk about attachment styles. Even if they’re not totally on board, you can still practice some of these techniques.
One of the things that often helps with people who have a hard time understanding their own emotions is to use emotionally clarifying words. Here are just some examples:
That sounds both infuriating and frustrating.You look like you must have felt quite helpless. Does that sound right?I want to understand better. Do you think you felt more powerless or more disappointed?If that had happened to me, I would have felt so alone. Is that how you felt? Or was it more that you felt unseen?So many of us can only identify very vague emotions, like “angry” or “sad.” But when we can zero in on what the actual emotion is, then understanding and healing can more easily take place. Again, a word bank of emotions is a great place to start!
It feels strange to start using new muscles.It feels strange to talk about feelings when you’re used to avoiding them (and the book tells you what to do if you’re willing but your spouse is not!). It feels strange to be honest when you’ve spent your life trying to please others so they won’t leave.
it’s scary and hard.
But if you want connection, you have to go through it!
The Yerkovichs have a video on what the Comfort Circle looks like. And I encourage everyone to pick up How We Love and work through it with your spouse. It’s actually fun to realize there’s a reason you’re the way you are! But also that there are tools that you can use to help you feel closer and more connected. You don’t have to be stuck here, and distance doesn’t have to be your life story.
Check it out on Amazon! In the Yerkovichs’ list of Love Styles, I’m a Vacillator. Or perhaps I should say, I’m slightly a Vacillator. Because I think I’ve grown a lot over our marriage, and I don’t react in the same way that I did before. We do have much healthier communication.
My husband was a mix of a Vacillator and a Pleaser, and he too has grown a lot.
So all of that to say–you don’t have to stay stuck. Things can change. And it is so beautiful when they do!
What do you think? Have you grown in your attachment styles? Or do you feel like there’s still a lot of growth to do? Let’s talk in the comments!
The Attachment SeriesPOSTS:The 4 Attachment Styles and what that means in parenting and marriageDo We Have to Tell Kids They're Dirty Rotten Sinners?Your Kids' Attachment Issues Doesn't Mean It's Your FaultOur 5 Love Styles and How This Affects MarriageHow Can You Grow a Healthy Attachment Style?PODCASTS:PODCAST: Attached to God--how does our attachment style to God affect our relationship with Him?PODCAST: Our Love Styles with Mila and Kay YerkovichPODCAST: What is connected parenting (last segment of podcast) plus how research around spanking is misused!PODCAST: How can we raise securely attached kids?
Sheila Wray Gregoire Founder of To Love, Honor and Vacuum
Sheila is determined to help Christians find BIBLICAL, HEALTHY, EVIDENCE-BASED help for their marriage. And in doing so, she's turning the evangelical world on its head, challenging many of the toxic teachings, especially in her newest book The Great Sex Rescue. She’s an award-winning author of 8 books and a sought-after speaker. With her humorous, no-nonsense approach, Sheila works with her husband Keith and daughter Rebecca to create podcasts and courses to help couples find true intimacy. Plus she knits. All the time. ENTJ, straight 8 FacebookTwitter Related Posts On Spanking: When You Think You’re Following the Bible, but You’re Really Following Your Own InterpretationMay 23, 2022 | 39 Comments
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May 27, 2022
At the End of a Week of Sorrows: Feed My Lambs
It started off with two things dropping on Monday: The Southern Baptist Convention report on sexual abuse, which was devastating, and the viral video from a church in Indiana where a pastor confessed to adultery, received a standing ovation–and then a woman and her husband got on stage and said, “It wasn’t adultery. I was only 16.”
Over the course of the week other victims connected to the church came forward, including several whom the pastor’s son allegedly abused when they were just children.
We all thought that was bad, but then it got worse.
Nineteen children mowed down, and two teachers dead.Yes, you can say that the police didn’t handle it right. Yes, you can point to all kinds of procedures that weren’t followed. But the simple truth is that this doesn’t happen in other countries. It happens so rarely in Canada we can all recite for you the very few mass shootings. And other countries are miniscule compared to even Canada, let alone the United States.
And once more, a town has far too many tiny coffins to bury.
Then the next day Josh Duggar was sentenced to 12 1/2 years for possession of child sexual abuse material.Other restrictions were also put on him upon his release. I would have liked to see a longer sentence (his baby will be 10 when he’s eligible for parole, and that’s still pretty young), but it’s fairly stiff.
And we are all wondering, “how can this family continue to stand behind him? Why did no one do anything? Why is Anna still with him?”
There are many reasons, of course, that Anna hasn’t left, and I don’t mean to blame her.
That day, May 25, was also the anniversary of the George Floyd murder.
But we look at all of these cases–the SBC; the church with multiple covered up abuse allegations; the mass shooting; the Duggars; and we have to wonder: how are things ever going to change?In all of these cases, people knew the harm that was being done, and the potential for more harm, and no one did anything.
And, in fact, the apathy is still so strong that it’s very unlikely that anything will really be done at all, except perhaps in the case of the church in Indiana, where I think police may actually lay charges against the son at least.
But there will continue to be those that support the Duggars. There will be more mass shootings with no attempt to curb them; there will be little done in the SBC to stop abuse, just as there will be little done to protect the Duggar kids. Because you can’t stop abuse when you consider men more important than women and children, and the SBC and the Duggars both do that.
(I’m not saying that it’s not possible to abuse in places where women are equal; I’m saying it’s less likely, though it happens everywhere (as Willow Creek and The Meeting House have shown us).
Right now there is righteous anger combined with hopelessness.People want the mass shootings to stop. They want abuse to stop in the SBC. They’re angry things have gotten to this point.
But it looks like even though people are angry, real solutions are unlikely to be found.
I don’t have any good answers right now. But I will say two things:
1. Be careful of those who use intellectual arguments to claim that nothing can be done.We see this in both the SBC and in the matter of mass shootings. When people start using big arguments about why things have to stay as they are, and they’re ignoring the very real harm coming to the least of these, you know that’s not of Jesus. It just isn’t.
“Whatever you did for the least of the least of these you did for me; and whatever you didn’t do for the least of these, you didn’t do for me.”
Are we really saying that people must continue to be slaughtered, and women and children must continue to be raped, because change is worse? Because change means going against God–as if somehow what is happening now is OF God?
When people show you their priorities, believe them. And thoughts and prayers are not enough–not for the school shooting, not for the SBC, not for abuse. And at some point, each of us will have to answer about who we want to align ourselves with. For many, this may be the week that we walk away.
2. “Feed my sheep.”Another thought I had, and this one needs a story.
Wednesday was my birthday (that’s why there was no post!). and I wanted to plan something that my family could do together (well, Katie lives too far away to join us, but we FaceTimed her in!). And I received an email from a sheep farm nearby where you can book a time to go feed the foster lambs. When a ewe has more than two lambs, they remove the third and/or fourth and feed them themselves because the ewes usually can’t handle more than two babies (and few have more than two).
So I booked a time for us to go feed lambs and hold lambs!
It was a bit of a drive, and involved a short ferry ride (my grandson’s first time on a boat!), and then another drive through lilac lined roads to the farm. And there we fed and held the lambs.
When Joanna (our co-author for The Great Sex Rescue) heard how I was planning to spend my birthday, she laughed. She said, “you spend your whole year trying to feed people, and then you spend your birthday literally feeding lambs.”
I hadn’t thought of that, but she was right! And I thought back to John 21, and Jesus’ conversation with Peter. In the middle of talking about all the terrible things that await them, and how life is not going to be easy, Jesus’ commands were simple:
Feed my sheep.
Follow me, and feed my lambs.
I think that’s what God is asking of us today. Don’t be so caught up in the horror that we lose sight of those around us who need us. Don’t get so caught up in intellectual arguments that we forget to do the work of caring for others. Don’t spend so much emotional energy on things we can’t change, and focus on changing the things we can.
Feed my lambs.
I don’t know what that looks like for all of you, but let’s dig in and care for those in our path, and change the things we can–even if we know we can never change everything.
What if you're NOT the problem with your sex life?What if the messages that you've been taught have messed things up--and what if there's a way to escape these toxic teachings?
It's time for a Great Sex Rescue. Buy it on Amazon! Where Else Can I Buy It? In the next year, before my next birthday, we’ll be releasing our Mother Daughter book, She Deserves Better.It’s my next attempt to feed lambs, to rescue those who have been hurt by erroneous church teachings, and prevent more girls from being harmed by them.
I’ll keep forging ahead. But I may take some time to grieve, too, because this has been a big week. I hope you take some time as well.
And then let’s get back to feeding the lambs.
What do you think? How do we handle the hopelessness? How do we handle the apathy? Let’s talk in the comments!
Sheila Wray Gregoire Founder of To Love, Honor and Vacuum
Sheila is determined to help Christians find BIBLICAL, HEALTHY, EVIDENCE-BASED help for their marriage. And in doing so, she's turning the evangelical world on its head, challenging many of the toxic teachings, especially in her newest book The Great Sex Rescue. She’s an award-winning author of 8 books and a sought-after speaker. With her humorous, no-nonsense approach, Sheila works with her husband Keith and daughter Rebecca to create podcasts and courses to help couples find true intimacy. Plus she knits. All the time. ENTJ, straight 8 FacebookTwitter Related Posts Spanking Fixed It For You: It’s Okay to Change Your Mind about SpankingMay 20, 2022 | 27 Comments
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May 26, 2022
PODCAST: The Porn Triage–How to Tell How Likely Recovery Will Be
One of our goals for what we do is to help people have “informed consent”–in other words, before they make a decision, they need to know all the facts. We can’t be afraid of data and evidence.
And when it comes to porn, that’s super important, because porn use does not always have the same effect on relationships. While porn use is always intolerable and must be stopped, and boundaries must be drawn–it is not necessarily equally destructive.
Some people use porn but don’t develop a pornified style of relating; want to stop; and treat their wife (or husband) well. And some use porn and become entitled or abusive.
Thus, figuring out what you should do when you discover your husband is using porn (and I’ll talk about husbands here because this conversation is mainly happening about men, even though women can use porn too) is largely about looking at the bigger picture, and doing a triage, so to speak.
In a battle, medics assess the wounded and try to figure out which ones will likely recover, which ones won’t, and which ones need intervention the most. That’s what we’d like to do today with porn, and suggest a way we can think about a porn triage.
Browse all the Different Podcasts
See the Last “Start Your Engines” (Men’s) Podcast
Or, as always, you can watch on YouTube:
Timeline of the Podcast
0:10 Changes are coming!
2:00 Addressing friendly fire
9:00 The Porn Triage: Two distinct diagnoses
25:45 But what about those who can recover?
32:00 PTSD discussion
39:00 Porn is the new Purity Culture?
44:15 But can you still leave?
49:00 Sarah discusses noticing vs lusting
What’s been happening in a wider conversation on social media is that there’s been some concern that I’m being too easy on porn users. We found that only 50% of married, evangelical men use porn; many women who have gotten out of abusive relationships with porn addicted husbands feel that we’re downplaying the problem by reporting this number.
We’ve also said that porn alone does not cause the major destruction in the marriage, but porn accompanied by a number of other markers, especially the pornified style of relating.
This does not mean that we don’t think porn is harmful or should be tolerated! We’ve always, always said that porn use is a non-starter, and must be dealt with.
But we also think it’s important to tell the whole story.
For some women, their husbands’ porn use means that the primary concern on discovery should be seeking safety. Don’t worry about preserving the marriage–just get everyone safe. Separate if you have to (and you likely will have to). Make sure your finances are protected.
But for others, the signs actually show that recovery is very possible.
So let’s look at the markers:
Markers that the porn use puts you on the “seek safety” path:Is the porn use associated with other forms of abuse?Has the porn use escalated into escorts, prostitutes, or strip clubs?Has the porn use led to a loss of employment?Is the porn use accompanied by other addictive behaviours, such as substance abuse or gambling?Has the porn use spilled into the bedroom in the form of sexual coercion, asking for outlandish things, or sexual assault?Have the children been exposed to porn, either intentionally or not?Is the porn being consumed of an especially heinous nature (child sexual abuse materials, extreme violence or perversion)Is the porn use accompanied by great secrecy, especially in other areas of life?Has the porn use been accompanied by anger or a failure to be a decent father or a decent person in general?Has recovery been supposedly ongoing for years, but no progress is ever made?If one or more of these things is present, then the main concern should be getting safety and help for yourself and kids, not trying to salvage the marriage. If he does seek treatment and he does recover, that’s awesome! But don’t put your life on hold while you wait for that.
On the other hand, if these things are present, then recovery is very likely:they own the problem without blaming it on anyoneIt is not accompanied by a pornified style of relatingthey seek out their own help and counselingThey stick with a programThey willingly give up privacy/secrecyAnd our survey found strong evidence of BOTH groups of people. Many guys actually do recover from porn, and so we have to be sure that we don’t talk about all porn use as meaning a marriage is doomed. On the other hand, some porn use is so destructive that we shouldn’t just be counseling women to wait for his recovery.
This is where data comes in. Of course, women in both groups may still decide that this is a rubicon they can’t cross, and the betrayal is too big. But at least they have data so they can make a decision with informed consent.
The problem that I have seen is that there’s been an effort to try to paint every case as the same. But it’s not. And if we want to stop porn use long term, we have to help people get help. We can’t create a new purity culture for boys with porn, the same way we did for girls with any kind of sexual thoughts/activity. If we want boys to be able to stop, we must talk about how it actually is possible to quit, and porn does not necessarily ruin your whole life.
Sarah McDugal: Noticing vs. LustingAfter our talk on porn, I shared a Facebook Live my friend Sarah McDugal had done on noticing vs. lusting. Sarah is an abuse recovery coach and the founder of the awesome TraumaMamas app, and she shared how this discussion of how noticing isn’t lusting can be difficult for those who have been married to sex addicted husbands–but it doesn’t mean it’s not a discussion worth having.
I really appreciated her gracious take on this one, and I asked her permission to share it on the podcast. Sarah will be joining us on a later podcast to talk about her awesome new app.
What if you're NOT the problem with your sex life?What if the messages that you've been taught have messed things up--and what if there's a way to escape these toxic teachings?
It's time for a Great Sex Rescue. Buy it on Amazon! Where Else Can I Buy It? Things Mentioned in This Podcast:The Great Sex Rescue, our book based on our survey of 20,000 women, and The Good Guy’s Guide to Great Sex, where we talk about our survey results on porn, lust, and recoveryThe Whole Story: Our course for talking to your kids about sex and pubertySarah McDugal on FacebookThe Trauma Mamas AppSarah’s original Noticing vs. Lusting Video
What do you think? How can we improve this conversation and make it more nuanced? Let’s talk in the comments!
Sheila Wray Gregoire Founder of To Love, Honor and Vacuum
Sheila is determined to help Christians find BIBLICAL, HEALTHY, EVIDENCE-BASED help for their marriage. And in doing so, she's turning the evangelical world on its head, challenging many of the toxic teachings, especially in her newest book The Great Sex Rescue. She’s an award-winning author of 8 books and a sought-after speaker. With her humorous, no-nonsense approach, Sheila works with her husband Keith and daughter Rebecca to create podcasts and courses to help couples find true intimacy. Plus she knits. All the time. ENTJ, straight 8 FacebookTwitter Related Posts PODCAST: How We Love–Attachment Styles and Marriage with the Yerkovichs!May 19, 2022 | 15 Comments
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May 24, 2022
The Southern Baptist Convention’s Sexual Abuse Report
That’s the impression I got about those high up in the Southern Baptist Convention after reading the report that dropped on the weekend about the sexual abuse scandal in the denomination, and how it has been ignored, covered up, and minimized, while victims have been vilified.
They all just sounded so callous and smug–Augie Boto and Paige Patterson especially, but also Floyd and some of the others. It was truly, truly sickening to read.
And then, of course, there was the terrible story of former SBC President Johnny Hunt actually sexually abusing someone, and now denying that anything even happened (though he did counseling for it 10 years ago).
Just sick.
I wanted to share three sections that really stood out to me. First, here’s one of the big takeaways in the summary section at the beginning of the report:
(EC = Executive Committee)
Our investigation revealed that, for many years, a few senior EC leaders, along with outside counsel, largely controlled the EC’s response to these reports of abuse. They closely guarded information about abuse allegations and lawsuits, which were not shared with EC Trustees, and were singularly focused on avoiding liability for the SBC to the exclusion of other considerations. In service of this goal, survivors and others who reported abuse were ignored, disbelieved, or met with the constant refrain that the SBC could take no action due to its polity regarding church autonomy – even if it meant that convicted molesters continued in ministry with no notice or warning to their current church or congregation. Guideposts SolutionsReport of the Independent Investigation into Sexual Abuse in the Southern Baptist Convention
They go on to list the history of the issue in the Southern Baptist Convention; the refusal to reform and all the different times they were asked to; the terrible way the communicated with victims; the way they dismissed allegations and covered them up; and more.
It was truly a sickening read.
And over and over again, you read about how those highest up in the Southern Baptist Convention Just. Didn’t. Care.And, in fact, they painted victims as the real villains, as Augie Boto, a senior executive in the SBC for years, is quoted saying here:
“This whole thing should be seen for what it is. It is a satanic scheme to completely distract us from evangelism. It is not the gospel. It is not even a part of the gospel. It is a misdirection play. Yes, Christa Brown [a survivor] and Rachael Denhollander [a survivor advocate] have succumbed to an availability heuristic because of their victimizations. They have gone to the SBC looking for sexual abuse, and of course, they found it. Their outcries have certainly caused an availability cascade (just like Lois Gibbs did in the Love Canal example). But they are not to blame. This is the devil being temporarily successful.”
Guideposts SolutionsQuoting Augie Boto, Report of the Independent Investigation into Sexual Abuse in the Southern Baptist Convention
The report also included a heartbreaking story of when Christa Brown appeared before the Executive Committee to tell her story of abuse (which occurred repeatedly when she was 16), because her abuser was still working for an SBC church. She was the only woman in the room. Some men turned their backs on her. Others sneered and chortled while she told what the pastor did to her.
And this pretty much sums up their attitude towards sexual abuse:
Overall, the legal advice focused on liability created a chilling effect on the ability of the EC to be compassionate towards survivors of abuse. Survivors were always viewed through the lens of potential plaintiffs threatening lawsuits, rather than as individuals who had been harmed and were in need of care. Guideposts SolutionsReport of the Independent Investigation into Sexual Abuse in the Southern Baptist Convention
It was clear that many of the Executive Committee members and former members still viewed THEMSELVES as the victim, especially Paige Patterson, former President at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary and former SBC Executive, who refused to be interviewed or hand over documents, as required by the task force. Again, just sickening.
Where does the Southern Baptist Convention go from here?Honestly, I don’t know. There was nothing in the report that was new to me (other than the allegations against former President Johnny Hunt). Everything else has been thoroughly discussed on Twitter. It’s all been out there for decades. And nothing has been done.
I’m not sure anything will be done now. In fact, I’m pretty sure it won’t really.
I think individual people sitting in the pews want something done, but I see no sign that those at the top actually want anything done. Remember that the Executive Committee fought tooth and nail to not have to hand over documents to the task force, despite the vote at the Convention that they do so.
I think everybody needs to ask: Do we want to support this institution?There are other baptist organizations that churches can affiliate with. No one needs to be part of the Southern Baptist Convention. Churches can just leave. They can form other coalitions where they do protect victims.
But even more importantly, I don’t think things can change when women are still subordinate.I do not believe that any institution can properly deal with sexual abuse and sexual assault when that institution is focused on preserving power at the top, and focused on making sure that power is male.
This goes directly against Jesus’ teaching in Matthew 20:25-28, when He said that we aren’t to be worried about exercising power over one another, like the Gentiles do, but we should instead serve.
And yet the SBC has so many churches in it where the pastors have such power, and can’t be questioned. And where women do not have a voice. It’s all a big hierarchy. When people are more interested in preserving power than in serving and protecting others, they’ve lost the plot. They’ve lost the gospel. They’ve lost Jesus.
Again, I want to remind you that there are good churches out there.Like we talked about in our podcast where we critiqued Josh Howerton (an SBC megachurch pastor) in how he misused research saying that women in marriages that believed in male headship did better, religiosity is positive. Going to church tends to be really beneficial!
But not all churches are the same. If the average is good, that means that some churches will bring down the average, and some will bring it up.
Right now a lot of SBC churches are bringing down the average. And maybe, if people focused on building up the healthy churches, then those churches would thrive with our volunteer hours and our tithes and our attendance, and the ones that are so focused on making sure that Paige Patterson gets his stained glass windows would wither.
(And P.S.: Thanks to Rachael Denhollander for her shout out to The Great Sex Rescue on her podcast with Russell Moore yesterday! That was awesome to hear!).
This book is a groundbreaking look into what true, sacred Biblical sexuality is intended to be, and the root causes and ideas that damage a couple’s intimacy in marriage. Going straight to Scripture, the authors dig deep into ideologies that draw couples away from God-designed intimacy, and seek to construct a framework for sexuality that truly rooted in Scripture and God’s beautiful design, elevating sexuality and marriage to the glory and sacredness it was intended to have. This is a must-read.
Rachael DenhollanderLawyer, Victim Advocate, and author,, What Is a Girl Worth?
What if you're NOT the problem with your sex life?What if the messages that you've been taught have messed things up--and what if there's a way to escape these toxic teachings?
It's time for a Great Sex Rescue. Buy it on Amazon! Where Else Can I Buy It?What do you think? Can the SBC be saved? Should it be? Let’s talk in the comments!
Sheila Wray Gregoire Founder of To Love, Honor and Vacuum
Sheila is determined to help Christians find BIBLICAL, HEALTHY, EVIDENCE-BASED help for their marriage. And in doing so, she's turning the evangelical world on its head, challenging many of the toxic teachings, especially in her newest book The Great Sex Rescue. She’s an award-winning author of 8 books and a sought-after speaker. With her humorous, no-nonsense approach, Sheila works with her husband Keith and daughter Rebecca to create podcasts and courses to help couples find true intimacy. Plus she knits. All the time. ENTJ, straight 8 FacebookTwitter Related Posts What the Hookup Culture and Purity Culture Have in CommonMay 18, 2022 | 22 Comments
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The post The Southern Baptist Convention’s Sexual Abuse Report appeared first on To Love, Honor and Vacuum.
May 23, 2022
On Spanking: When You Think You’re Following the Bible, but You’re Really Following Your Own Interpretation
We’ve been talking about spanking as a method of discipline for a few weeks now, and two weeks ago we did a podcast where we looked at alternative forms of discipline to spanking that are far more in line with the heart of God. On Friday, I shared a concerning Fixed it For You about spanking.
Because of that, quite the debate has erupted on social media, with many people claiming that to offer other methods of discipline is “unbiblical” and “listening to worldly wisdom” and instead they will “follow the Bible.”
They believe that in spanking their children they are “following the Bible.” When people have shown other ways of interpreting those verses, they have claimed that, again, we are using worldly wisdom and they will just listen to what the Bible says.
There’s a propensity in Christianity, and especially in evangelicalism, to assume that you are “following the Bible” while everyone else is “interpreting the Bible.”They’re just “interpreting”, meaning that they are trying to get away from what the Bible is actually saying, while you are just following Scripture.
We see this in a number of areas–in gender roles; in how we discipline; in how we handle government mandates or even in creation/evolution debates. Some evangelicals assume that the traditional evangelical way of doing things is “following the Bible without interpretation” while everyone else is become “liberal” and “interpreting the Bible” in an attempt to get away from what the Bible actually says.
What I want to show today is that EVERYONE is interpreting the Bible, and spanking is a great example.You may think you’re not interpreting, and you’re accurately “following”, but you are still interpreting. And so the question we need to ask is, “what is the best interpretation of this passage?”
So let’s jump in to spanking.
There are only a few verses in Scripture that can actually be used to support hitting a child and causing physical pain to discipline, and most of them are in Proverbs. All use the term “rod”, and this is the most explicit of them. I’ll use the ESV translation here, since proponents of spanking tend to like the more conservative translations (and the translators of the ESV said explicitly that it was a “complementarian” translation that deliberately and intentionally affirmed male hierarchy).
Here are the verses:
Do not withhold discipline from a child;
if you strike him with a rod, he will not die.
If you strike him with the rod,
you will save his soul from Sheol.
Okay, so what we read in Proverbs, if you take it completely literally, is that you should be using a rod (a stick) to hit your child to discipline him or her.
If you are going to claim that you are “following the Bible” without “interpretation”, then you should do exactly, word for word, what the passage appears to say (there are still issues with that, but let’s go with it for a minute). That means that you should be hitting your children with sticks.
Some people literally do hit their children with sticks, as this advertisement that appeared in a Christian magazine horrifying showed:
A reader also sent me a picture of what this rod was like–I won’t include that since she’s in it. But let’s just say it’s very long and looks extremely painful.
And they thought this was “biblical”!
Most people, looking at that advertisement, feel sick–even people who spank.Most of us can’t imagine using a “switch” on our kids. No, most people who were arguing that spanking was biblical on my Facebook Page weren’t arguing for hitting kids with sticks. They were arguing for a regimen that looked like this:
The 4-Point Plan for “Biblical” SpankingHere’s what spanking advocates tend to say is “biblical”:
Calming yourself down (so that spanking is not done when you are angry)Hitting your child on the buttocks with your hand enough times to cause painHave the child cryComfort the child afterwards and tell them how much you love themThis is the “biblical” way to do spanking, as people were telling me.
So it’s a four point plan of calming yourself down; hitting your child with your hand on the buttocks; doing so until the child cries; afterwards telling them you love them.
Okay, let’s look at those verses from Proverbs again:
Do not withhold discipline from a child;
if you strike him with a rod, he will not die.
If you strike him with the rod,
you will save his soul from Sheol.
Where, in those verses, do you see ANY of those four things? Where, in those verses, is it mentioned that you should hit your child with your hand across the buttocks? Where is it mentioned that you should comfort them afterwards? Where is it mentioned that you should calm yourself down first? Where is it mentioned that you should spank them hard enough so that they cry?
Nowhere.
All of that is interpretation of what “the rod” means.None of that is in Scripture. Absolutely none of it. It is, however, in a whole bunch of our books, including:
James Dobson’s books on parentingShepherding a Child’s Heart by Ted TrippTo Train up a Child by the PearlsAnd so many more.
We’ve been told that regimen of spanking is biblical so many times that we start to believe that it is.Our books and pastors make the case that this is what spanking is. Some of the books even did tell you to spank with a stick, but many parents knew that was overly excessive, and so they rejected that for the hand. Nevertheless, this has been the theme in evangelical churches for generations: it is biblical to spank your children.
Except that this is an interpretation of Proverbs; it is not a plain reading of Proverbs.
If you spank your child with an open hand, while calm, and then comfort them afterwards, you are already interpreting Scripture, not just following Scripture.I think it’s perfectly fair to ask, then:
When interpreting Scripture, what are the things we should most look out for?I’m not going to give my thorough interpretation of Proverbs 23:13-14; others have done a much better job, and I’d thoroughly recommend Jesus the Gentle Parent or Discipline that Connects to look at that. But I would like to point you to a few issues:
1. Look at the origin of the key words that are usedIn this case, “rod” is used throughout Scripture not as a method of punishment but as a method of guidance. Even in Proverbs itself it has a different meaning that striking–as Proverbs 14:3 says (“in the mouth of the fool is the rod of pride”).
In addition, the word for “child” that is used here is more akin to an older child, like a teenager, than it is to a toddler or a child that’s 5 or 6.
So again–unless you’re using a stick to beat a teenager, you’re not following the “literal” Bible anyway. These verses do not apply to children aged 1-7, which is generally the age group that we are arguing for spanking.
2. Look at the purpose for the passageThe “rod” verses fall in what we would call “wisdom literature”, which is not a set of commands but rather a set of principles of how the world works. They are often poetic and often metaphorical or allegorical, compared to the rest of Scripture. For instance, in Proverbs 6:19-20, we’re told to tie the commands of our father “around our necks.” Anyone wore a command necklace lately?
3. Look at what the rest of the Bible says about this particular thingThe Bible doesn’t really speak to how a child is disciplined, only that he or she be disciplined.
4. Look at the character of God.Is it God’s character to hurt and punish us for what we did in the past? Or is it God’s character to guide and train us?
A good question to ask is: “Can you picture Jesus doing this?” Jesus said, “he who has seen me has seen the Father.” One of the reasons He came in the flesh was to show us the Father. So if you can’t see Jesus doing it, then it’s not of God.
(It’s amazing how when people talk about spanking, they almost always talk about “God wants you to do this” rather than “Jesus wants you to do this.” As much as possible, use the name of Jesus and see if you still have the same interpretation!)
5. Look at the fruit of the teaching.And finally, my favourite one: Look at the fruit. As Jesus said:
By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. Matthew 7:16-20, NIV
The wider context Jesus is speaking into here is how to recognize false prophets. Verse 15, right before this passage, says, “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.”
So the purpose of the fruit test is to judge whether someone is speaking the truth about Scripture or not. And how do we do that? We look at the fruit. Does it have good outcomes, or bad outcomes?
And that’s where the spanking meta-analysis by Elizabeth Gershoff that I’ve been talking about is so important. She combined studies of 160,000 children and created operational definitions across the studies so that she could measure the results in the aggregate. She looked only at spanking done with an open hand on the buttocks–exactly what people argue is “biblical” spanking–and not beating a child or spanking with a rod.
And that study found that spanking was either negative or neutral, not positive.
The fruit doesn’t lie.
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Learn More! Here’s my plea: Sometimes we think we’re just “following the Bible” when really we’re following what we’ve been told is the Bible.And we’ve been told it so many times that we can’t imagine it NOT being the Bible. This is true with spanking, but it’s true with so many other things, too, like:
How we handle the “do not deprive” versesHow we think about submission in marriageHow we think about creation/evolutionHow we think about politicsAnd so much more!
But God calls us to more. We can’t just ride on the coat-tails of what other people have told us is true. We have to be like the Bereans from Acts 17, who were praised for taking everything that Paul taught them, and comparing it to Scripture and thinking for themselves.
There’s been a lot of harm done over the last few generations in the name of “following the Bible.” I believe Jesus is doing a mighty work right now, shaking the church, and calling people back to Himself. Don’t be afraid to question what you’ve been told is the Bible. Jesus is the Word of God. Scripture is meant to point us to Jesus–the ultimate Word. Jesus is our measuring stick. Lean into Him. Don’t be afraid. The rest will follow.
Why are we so quick to think we’re “following the Bible”, unlike everyone else? How can we change this? Let’s talk in the comments!
Sheila Wray Gregoire Founder of To Love, Honor and Vacuum
Sheila is determined to help Christians find BIBLICAL, HEALTHY, EVIDENCE-BASED help for their marriage. And in doing so, she's turning the evangelical world on its head, challenging many of the toxic teachings, especially in her newest book The Great Sex Rescue. She’s an award-winning author of 8 books and a sought-after speaker. With her humorous, no-nonsense approach, Sheila works with her husband Keith and daughter Rebecca to create podcasts and courses to help couples find true intimacy. Plus she knits. All the time. ENTJ, straight 8 FacebookTwitter Related Posts On Michelle Duggar’s Signature and the Infantilization of Women in Fundamentalist ChristianityMay 17, 2022 | 53 Comments
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The post On Spanking: When You Think You’re Following the Bible, but You’re Really Following Your Own Interpretation appeared first on To Love, Honor and Vacuum.
May 20, 2022
Spanking Fixed It For You: It’s Okay to Change Your Mind about Spanking
Well, there’s a funny story about Katie, but I’ll leave that for another time.
What I did do, though, was write a column in my weekly paper about twenty years ago bemoaning the fact that the Children’s Aid Society was taking children away from their parents merely for excessive spanking, when everything else was okay.
When you looked at the description of what was done to those kids, it wasn’t that different from what so many of my generation grew up with.
So I didn’t spank, because I couldn’t picture hitting my kids, but I also defended those who did.
Two things changed my mind: Research into spanking, and understanding more the heart of God.When I looked into the very few verses in the Bible that people use to justify spanking, and realize that (a) they weren’t talking about toddlers, but teenagers, though none of us would spank a teen (I hope!); and (b) they weren’t necessarily talking about hitting but rather guiding and discipline, I realized that we were misusing the Bible.
I also knew that you could discipline well without spanking because that’s what we did!
Enter this week’s Fixed It For You, this time from Voddie Baucham:I ran another quote by Voddie Baucham (there was a creepy one about fathers and daughters a while back too).
(For further context of this quote, you can read more and watch the video here. And the context is even worse. He goes on to explain how a child being shy is a sin that must be punished.)
And here’s the update that went along with it, both on Instagram and Facebook:
Did you know that a HUGE study of 160,000 children showed that spanking was either NEGATIVE or NEUTRAL, but never POSITIVE?You can end up healthy and well attached DESPITE being spanked, but never BECAUSE you were spanked.
There are other methods of discipline that are far more effective and that help you CONNECT with your child. Spanking focuses on hurting them because of the past; healthy discipline focuses on building connection as you guide them and empower and teach them to make good choices in the future.
Positive discipline that connects reflects the heart of Jesus. Hurting our kids hurts relationship; proper discipline should build and repair relationship.
I find it so sad that Christianity is really well-known for encouraging spanking in the extreme.
God does not work this way with us; is this the view of God we want to give our kids?
There are much better ways. If you don’t know what I’m talking about, listen in to the amazing podcast I did last week with Wendy from Fresh Start Families!
Episode 145 of the Bare Marriage Podcast!
We had some great feedback, and I was thrilled to see how many people, when sharing the study, used some of our arguments from the podcast two weeks ago where we were explaining that your experience does not contradict research into 160,000 kids. An anecdote does not trump a meta-analysis of 160,000 children.
What bothers me, though, is how vehemently so many Christians defend spanking, as if by criticizing spanking you’re rejecting Christ Himself.I honestly didn’t get that much pushback; I think the message is getting out there, and I’ve posted on this enough lately that people are starting to rethink. And that’s the good thing–we’re allowed to change our minds! As we learn more about God; as we understand more about how He made us to connect; as we understand more about parenting–we can change our minds!
I did. So many have. And it can be hard to change your mind when you DID spank your kids, and regret it now. But so many people shared how they have talked to their kids about it and it’s opened up beautiful conversations and it’s mended a lot of fences, and that’s wonderful.
But I just find myself so sad by the people who think I’m attacking God and spreading darkness by saying, “Hey, how about we don’t hit our kids, and instead learn how to connect and guide our kids in a way that builds attachment and relationship?”
Like, what in the world is wrong with that? How could that possibly be anti-Christian?
And if you think it is anti-Christian–then what exactly do you think is Christian?
One woman inspired a huge thread when she wrote that I was placing “human wisdom above Scripture”, and that “If the Bible says discipline is loving and good, then that is true.”
After dozens upon dozens criticized her arguments, saying that ummm…..you don’t have to spank to discipline, she said:
I read all the comments and my only reaction is, May God have mercy on His church! The world has so quietly crept in and spread its lies that Christians can’t even see the difference between light and darkness. For a Christian to believe that God is all about love and no discipline is unbiblical. For those who asked for verses, please use Google or your Bible app. There are so many verses that support what I am saying.
I find two things interesting here.
First, we had told her over and over again that there are other, better forms of discipline–but she refused to engage with that. We pointed her to last week’s podcast which explained how to discipline in a way that connects (and how this type of discipline probably means you say no even more often!).
But when you’ve been raised to think spanking=discipline, it’s hard to get rid of the association.
But the second and even more interesting observation is this:
She is saying:
Light = Spanking your child 5 times before breakfast and being excited about hitting and hurting your child
Darkness = Disciplining in a way that connects with your child to guide them, grow the relationship, and help them make good choices because they want to, not because they’re scared of you.
Obviously, if you think about it for a minute, this is entirely illogical.But that’s the problem with so many evangelicals especially today. We’ve bought into all of these “extras”, and think they’re essential for the faith. We hold on to them as if we’re holding onto Jesus Himself.
And it makes us leave all reason behind. It makes us check our brains at the door.
When we equate one interpretation of one thing in Scripture that’s not even central to the gospel with the gospel itself, then if we lose that one thing everything will fall apart, like a huge Jenga game. And so we can’t change on anything.
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Learn More! I believe this comes down to how we see the Bible.If you believe the Bible, as it has been interpreted to you, and as it has been translated, is the equivalent of God’s Word, then you can never, ever question anything you’ve been taught. You can never grow!
But think about how many times Jesus said to the people: “You have heard it said…But I say to you…”
The point is that as we know Jesus, our views of things are going to change. That doesn’t mean we let go of the gospel! That means we UNDERSTAND the gospel better.
What your church has taught you about Jesus is not the same thing as the gospel.The Bible translation that you use is not the same thing as the gospel.The books that you have read giving their opinion on what it means to be a Christian are not the same thing as the gospel.But when you think it’s one big package, and your denomination is right about absolutely everything and can’t be questioned–then you can’t grow.
To think that you have to spank your kids five times before breakfast is the equivalent to the gospel?That’s mind boggling to me. But if that’s the attitude you have to the things that you are taught in church, then there is no room to be a Berean, like in Acts 17, and examine for yourself what people say against the Scriptures and what you know of God.
And honestly, if you think Jesus would gleefully spank a kid five times before breakfast…then we don’t know the same Jesus.
Sheila Wray Gregoire Founder of To Love, Honor and Vacuum
Sheila is determined to help Christians find BIBLICAL, HEALTHY, EVIDENCE-BASED help for their marriage. And in doing so, she's turning the evangelical world on its head, challenging many of the toxic teachings, especially in her newest book The Great Sex Rescue. She’s an award-winning author of 8 books and a sought-after speaker. With her humorous, no-nonsense approach, Sheila works with her husband Keith and daughter Rebecca to create podcasts and courses to help couples find true intimacy. Plus she knits. All the time. ENTJ, straight 8 FacebookTwitter Related Posts A 7 Point Plan for the Church to Care for Victims, not Support AbusersMay 16, 2022 | 27 Comments
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The post Spanking Fixed It For You: It’s Okay to Change Your Mind about Spanking appeared first on To Love, Honor and Vacuum.
May 19, 2022
PODCAST: How We Love–Attachment Styles and Marriage with the Yerkovichs!
This month on the blog we’re talking all about attachment styles. So often we think that our marriage problems are about communication, or habits, or normal conflicts. But what if they’re rooted in how we learned to connect with people?
And even more importantly–what if, by understanding our own love style, we can actually grow?
Today on the Bare Marriage podcast I was thrilled to interview Milan and Kay Yerkovich, the authors of the book How We Love!
Browse all the Different Podcasts
See the Last “Start Your Engines” (Men’s) Podcast
Or, as always, you can watch on YouTube:
Timeline of the Podcast
0:10 Announcments
1:25 Interview with the Yerkovichs
3:10 Explaining the origins
9:30 The 5 Imprints/Connectors
39:30 How Connectors Collide & How to work through things
50:40 Everything you can find at HowWeLove.com !
Last week I wrote about our love styles, and so many of you told me you found this concept so helpful. So I know you’re going to love this podcast! It’s all based on the book How We Love:
See it on Amazon! In the podcast, Milan and Kay walk us through what attachment styles mean, and then talk about what the five love styles are like.
They then show us how understanding our love styles can help us grow in our marriage, and can help us finally feel connected to our spouse. Plus we can put an end to all those recurring fights we so often have!
And you’re going to love their role play!
We also talked about what to do if one person wants to explore this and thinks it has merit, but the other spouse doesn’t want to look into it. So good!
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Check them out in the U.S.! Check them out in Canada! Things Mentioned in This Podcast:Knix in Canada and Knix in the U.S. Canadian customers get $15 off right away! And these honestly are awesome bras, and you’ll love the leakproof underwear too.The Orgasm Course! If you’ve ever wondered what all the fuss is about, and you wonder why everyone is having fun but you–then don’t miss out. You deserve more.The book How We Love, plus Milan and Kay’s site How We Love, with so much information. There are quizzes you can take, courses you can sign up for, and more. My post on the 5 Love Styles 
Do you know your love style? Have you found this discussion of attachment theory helpful for your marriage? Let’s talk in the comments!
The Attachment SeriesPOSTS:The 4 Attachment Styles and what that means in parenting and marriageDo We Have to Tell Kids They're Dirty Rotten Sinners?Your Kids' Attachment Issues Doesn't Mean It's Your FaultOur 5 Love Styles and How This Affects MarriageHow to Start Identifying Your Own Emotions and Learn to Express them (coming soon)How to Help Kids Identify their Emotions and Express Them (coming soon)PODCASTS:PODCAST: Attached to God--how does our attachment style to God affect our relationship with Him?PODCAST: Our Love Styles with Mila and Kay Yerkovich PODCAST: What is connected parenting (last segment of podcast) plus how research around spanking is misused!PODCAST: How can we raise securely attached kids?
Sheila Wray Gregoire Founder of To Love, Honor and Vacuum
Sheila is determined to help Christians find BIBLICAL, HEALTHY, EVIDENCE-BASED help for their marriage. And in doing so, she's turning the evangelical world on its head, challenging many of the toxic teachings, especially in her newest book The Great Sex Rescue. She’s an award-winning author of 8 books and a sought-after speaker. With her humorous, no-nonsense approach, Sheila works with her husband Keith and daughter Rebecca to create podcasts and courses to help couples find true intimacy. Plus she knits. All the time. ENTJ, straight 8 FacebookTwitter Related Posts On Modesty: We Shouldn’t Sacrifice Teen Girls’ Well-Being for Adult Men’s ComfortMay 13, 2022 | 85 Comments
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The post PODCAST: How We Love–Attachment Styles and Marriage with the Yerkovichs! appeared first on To Love, Honor and Vacuum.
