Outlander Series discussion
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message 51:
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Dee
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Nov 02, 2011 04:36PM
I'm not remembering Jamie's flogging from Ardsmuir - was that after he escaped to see the crazed man?
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My two cents, lol...LJG was the prison commander, Jamie was a prisoner. Unfortunately he didn't have the luxury of not punishing Jamie because he knew Jamie was innocent. Jamie confessed to having the tarten, LJ had a job to do as the prison commander. Did it suck, sure. But alot of things sucked. Jamie has had the unfortunate job of having to do things as Laird or leader that he wasn't completely comfortable with. He explained the rules of the times to Claire when he used his belt on her. You commit a crime (which Jamie confessed to), you deal with your punishment.
And I think we're overlooking the fact that Jamie has known LJ for more then 20 years. There doesn't have to be a grand moment that solidified their friendship. It could have just been born of many years of conversation and games of chess. Jamie told Claire that while he was a Helwater LJ would come to visit specifically to visit with Jamie and give him letters and information. And that before he knew it they were friends. Add to that, LJ was willing to marry Willie's aunt to take care of Willie. Jamie knew that LJ did that for the sake of their friendship.
Despite the fact that they were on opposing sides, and despite the fact that LJ was in love with Jamie, the two of them respected each other as honorable men. Jamie saw that in LJ from that first moment they met in DIA, and LJ saw it in Jamie at Ardsmuir. That plus time is the glue that bound them together as friends.
I really like their relationship.
I hope there are no spoilers in there... I totally forgot.....
That was after a piece of tartan was discovered when they did an inspection of the prisoner's quarters. It wasn't Jamie's, but he took the blame for it.If you recall, after Culloden, tartans were prohibited.
ok, I was like blanking - because I remember he struck the shackles off early onhistorically - do you think Jamie would have been less respectful of John in the prison, if he hadn't been punished (being as he did admit to it, even if it wasn't his) - because he did the same for Laoghaire too
FWIW - wondering if we should move this to a new thread - something like Jamie and John's relationshp
That's not a bad idea, Dee. How about I take it over to the Scottish Prisoner folder?
Wendy your two cent made a lot of cents!! Ladies, these are great discussions! I appreciate being able to bring my thoughts and questions regarding parts of the story and getting others input!!
I always thought that their friendship really stemmed from (view spoiler) I agree with Wendy that their friendship blossomed over 20 years. This thread is encouraging me to read the Lord John books.
Leea, Just to give you a heads up. Very little of Jamie is mentioned in the Lord John books to date. So you didn't miss any of the Jamie story, by not reading them.
Wendy excellent points but a little more to throw the cauldron. I seem to remember that Jamies taking the blame was two fold. One to quite literally save the young lad's hide and secondly to irrevocably change the dynamic of the relationship with him and LJ. He knew once that line had been crossed, and L John did cross, he wanted distance and this is what he got. He became one of the men again with no luxuries. LJ missed him but did end up with a lovely ring.
I can see where you are coming from Wendy and I still do not know if this is an inconsistency on Diana's part but I still have to agree with Peggy. Something had to have happened at Hellwater to change everything. So this is why I concur with Leea but we have not had the actual proof yet. I too hope this will be in SP.
Leea I only just read the LJG books. Personally i was not that keen and where I had grown to like him in the Outlander series I went off him quite a lot in these books. I think it is a really personal thing. 4 of us on another group read them and two liked him less and two liked him the same and maybe a little more. The peripheral characters are good and as Peggy said verra little Jamie.
I can see where you are coming from Wendy and I still do not know if this is an inconsistency on Diana's part but I still have to agree with Peggy. Something had to have happened at Hellwater to change everything. So this is why I concur with Leea but we have not had the actual proof yet. I too hope this will be in SP.
Leea I only just read the LJG books. Personally i was not that keen and where I had grown to like him in the Outlander series I went off him quite a lot in these books. I think it is a really personal thing. 4 of us on another group read them and two liked him less and two liked him the same and maybe a little more. The peripheral characters are good and as Peggy said verra little Jamie.
Caroline, I'll add my 2 cents here also on LJ. I never did get it. The only reason I read the LJ books was to identify exactly what I was missing, because I didn't care for him in Outlander and like you I cared even less for him after reading the LJ books. That is why I am really hanging my hat on the SP, hopeing something specific is revealed to identify the reason Jamie initially befriended LJ.LJ seems very self centered to me. Ya he took care of Jamie, but wouldn't you, if you loved someone, whether the feeling was reciprocated or not. OK, I'm going to duck and run from rocks now.
Peggy, Silly girl! We don't throw rocks. Tantrums perhaps, but not rocks.I read all the LJ books and really liked them. They really gave an insight in LJ's life, private and public.
LOL Peggy. I actually grew to like LJ in the end because of him coming to Claire's aid with crazed german chap as well as Jamie's. I did not like what he did in AEITB at the end. Can't wait for the "chat" that will come from that in the next book.
I find John a rather confusing character. I know he is aristocratic with all the arrogance and honour that comes with it. He does not seem to see the entire truth often but can be rather sulky, such as Hal's motives for having him away at school. His choice to bedfellows is extremely questionable. He prides himself on being level headed and analytical but often acts completely the opposite. The Percy thing and the way he treated Jamie did not work for me either....cad!
What I did like about the LJG books was Hal. Once we saw who Hal really was, pistol held at the operation, I was hooked on him.
Did you like Hal?
I find John a rather confusing character. I know he is aristocratic with all the arrogance and honour that comes with it. He does not seem to see the entire truth often but can be rather sulky, such as Hal's motives for having him away at school. His choice to bedfellows is extremely questionable. He prides himself on being level headed and analytical but often acts completely the opposite. The Percy thing and the way he treated Jamie did not work for me either....cad!
What I did like about the LJG books was Hal. Once we saw who Hal really was, pistol held at the operation, I was hooked on him.
Did you like Hal?
Caroline, I'm confused, "pistol held at the operation", drawing a blank. Do you mean in the atrium or garden where ever they were?
Being cryptic so not to spoil is not my forte.... Hal having the doc at gunpoint during the surgery of..... in the military hospital. I warmed to him after that and his liking for copious amounts of pudding. I am looking forward to more Hal time in SP.
Sometimes I feel Hal is like Sherlock Holmes' big brother Mycroft. Another plus.
Sometimes I feel Hal is like Sherlock Holmes' big brother Mycroft. Another plus.
Spoiler tag if you want Caroline...Type what you want to hide here and remove the ! ...
OK I must try and not be scared of technology :) Cheers Leea
It's easy, I swear... Just copy and past what I posted and there you go :) Cheers back to you Caroline.
Caroline, I'm drawing a blank on the gunpoint. sorry I never did warm up to the LJ books. They are a chore to read, I usually do them on audio from the library. Hal as you say is a likable warm big brother type, but if it were not for them being a part of Outlander, I probably would not read them. Again, given I love Jamie and Claire, I want to see what Jamie sees in him, and I still don't see it. I see Claire's point of view with respect to LJ, but not Jamie's. Even so much so I question Jamie's judgement. Even at Hellwater I feel LJ kept Jamie there for his own satisfaction, entertainment, infatuation, to keep him close, his "pet". Jamie was being used. Not a good quality in LJ. I felt Claire saw this also. Once William gets involved, then the realtionship dynamics change, and I understand that, but again that is LJ keeping Jamie on a short leash. At this point Jamie is between a rock and a hard spot, but still under LJ's authority/control. Not seeing a mutual friendship developing for the honest reasons. I hope one comes in SP, because, I don't like questioning Jamie's judgment. Him being my standard for all male characters worth wild. :)
Peggy I agree with you on all the points you have raised. I think there is also jealousy from Claire for teh time LJG had with Jamie and she did not, but yes I also think she sees through John. I agree it does not add up. Why did John take on Willie and not necessarily in this order:
1) He was an old family friend and very fond of his wife
2) He got to raise Willie, best next to having the real thing
3) It got him out of controvesy re: his sexual proclavities.
I far from believe these were selfless acts. Although I do think there is a thread of good that runs through John which tempers his decissions. Jamie must find him reliable and teh fact he can trust him must carry weight. Also Jamie is a natural leader and seems to love all his men whatever their traits as long as they are loyal. This may extend to John.
Re LJG and Hal (view spoiler)
1) He was an old family friend and very fond of his wife
2) He got to raise Willie, best next to having the real thing
3) It got him out of controvesy re: his sexual proclavities.
I far from believe these were selfless acts. Although I do think there is a thread of good that runs through John which tempers his decissions. Jamie must find him reliable and teh fact he can trust him must carry weight. Also Jamie is a natural leader and seems to love all his men whatever their traits as long as they are loyal. This may extend to John.
Re LJG and Hal (view spoiler)
Oh ya, Now I do remember the doc had a funky name. Good job on the spoiler. ha ha. Well, you, me and Claire haven't bought 100% into the LJ love fest. Not so bad company. Yea, LJ's not bad, he's a very sympathetic character, but I still feel I need more from Gabaldon, to believe LJ and Jamie turned into good friends. I hope it comes from SP. I just thought with such a large group they saw something I didn't, but that isn't the case yet, for me.
Wishing everyone a great weekend where ever you are located! I'm in Southern California and is cool, windy and even a little rain today. Is getting me in the mood for baking. Our older son leaves before Thanksgiving for basic training in The Air Force Enlisted, so think I will bake him his favorite pumpkin bread tonight.Take care
Peggy Z
ps, am trying to remember to sign my posts as Peggy Z as I see there is another Peggy here :) and I finally figured out how to add an "avatar" so my profile has a pic Yeah!
Hi Peggy Z, I see you are on the BDB site also. Any others I should know about, since we like the same thing? Ha.OOPS sorry, maybe not, my mail ran together. My Bad.
Yes Peggy I'll sit and bide my time with you and Claire for more evidence of this pact.
Hey Peggy Z hope you have a great weekend too... it's getting cool here in Ottawa, Canada especially for somone like me who is originally from England.
Hey Peggy Z hope you have a great weekend too... it's getting cool here in Ottawa, Canada especially for somone like me who is originally from England.
I love it... Peggy Z. I like the new avatar, it's so easy. I change mine a lot. In my other group we do Avatar Paries, where we change out avatars around. Right now it's 'what's your favorite season?" It's a lot of fun!
Peggy wrote: "Hi Peggy Z, I see you are on the BDB site also. Any others I should know about, since we like the same thing? Ha.OOPS sorry, maybe not, my mail ran together. My Bad."
HaHa,Peggy....I'm only on Outlander site :)
Caroline...it can be warm one day and cool the next day here in San Diego...we get a lot of what we call "snow birds" from Canada vacationing here in the winter :)
Leea....I'm techically challenged but I've been on Goodreads for 2 years now so finally went to Google Clip Art to get a book pic. All of the pics on our computer are of cars or running events...my hubby's hobbies! :)
Take care all
Peggy Z
Diana's teasers on Facebook are killing me!
Loved the one about the snakes mating... God I love that man!!
I have really been liking the Joan and Micheal exerpts. I can't wait to see where that is going.
Caroline wrote: "Happy Hogmanay all :)"Happy Hogmanay to you too!
And to you Wan.... should be a good one for me as I am a Dragon... how about you?
I'm a monkey. But I had shitty year last year. This year is supposed to be better. Dragon year is good for monkeys.
Excellent I will tell my Monkey daughter, she could do with a good year too :)
Hi I was not sure where to put this because the casting wall is frozen but I think Young Ian would be really well represented by Ben Wishaw http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0924210/
He's kind of awkward but has an enormous vulnerability that makes you care about him.
He's kind of awkward but has an enormous vulnerability that makes you care about him.
Now we have the character folders, you can post any casting right in the persons specific folder.Here's Ians, http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/4...
Ben Wishaw isn't a bad pick for Ian. I've never thought of him before.
As I was catching up on threads today I realized JUST how huge the web of stories is...even the graphic novel... Can anyone list ALL the published Outlander related books, short stories, etc., etc., in some kind of chronological order. I am way confused. Thanks to anyone who takes a stab at it.
The Outlandish Companion (reverence book)The Exile (graphic Novel)
Lord John and the Private Matter
Lord John and the Brotherhood of the Blade
Lord John and the Hand of Devils
Lord John Grey and the Succubus (Novella )
The Custom of the Army (short story part of Warriors by George RR Martin
The Scottish Prisoner
A Leaf on the Wind of All Hallow (short story in Love and Death by George RR Martin.
There are a couple more in the works But I have to go to work now I will look the ones coming up when I get home. (or maybe someone will have gotten a list together before then) : )
And where do the Main books fit in here? Wow, this is really extensive. Thanks, Fawn!
So the graphic novel really has new info in it? I saw it when it came out and since I don't have any interest in that gendre, I didn't get it. The bit I looked at didn't look like anything new.....will have to check it out now.
I just got my first Diana Gabaldon book! I have read the entire series and a few LJG books but didn't actually own any. My husband just bought me the 20th anniversary edition signed copy! Now I am afraid to read it because it is so precious :)
Oh yeah, Carol! There is a bit of insight given in The Exile! You should check it out for that purpose alone(not to mention you get to see(view spoiler))Diane, we completely understand. My 20th anniv edition sits on my shelf untouched and it's not even signed! I have the paperbacks to read! LOL
Jen, Sinatra Fan -I, too, have the 20th Anniversary edition, unsigned but that doesn't matter. When I ordered it my husband asked "if you have the book already, why do you need the anniversary edition?" My first thought was "men, they just don't get it". But I smiled and told him that is was for looking pretty on the bookshelf and that NO ONE was to touch it!
I'm glad I asked my husband to read it. He is just about finished with Outlander and it inspired him to get the book for me. He actually said he will read the series ( I only asked him to read the first) he just has other books he wants to read first. he said eventually he would get the whole series for me in hard back :) I could buy them my self but I'm too cheap and it's nice to have him buy them for me.
That's great Diane! You'll love having the hardbacks!
Carren, it's true. Some men don't get it. My brother does. He has multiple versions of The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings trilogy. My 20th Anniversary edition is referred to as "the precious." LolDiane, enjoy!
I now have all but the graphic novel wi=hich should arrive tomorrow (YAY Amazon!) and have read DG's chapters in Warriers annd a Leaf in the wind of all hallows. sorry, hard to type with a cat chin laying ON my hand on the keyborard.
Outlander Series
Books mentioned in this topic
Clean Sweep (other topics)Clean Sweep (other topics)
A Leaf on the Wind of All Hallows (other topics)
