Is Anita Blake the first of the Urban Fantasy movement?

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*]

Wow. Totally no notifications.


So. As the list creator I feel I should say this:

-The list ended up having such strong languge because I was having an issue where people wanted to put things like "Twilight" on my list.

No. (GR won't allow you to delete something from a list if the language does not say it is not allowed. If you add the language later, GR requires you to leave all books that were added prior to the addition of the language. And it's a hard line.)

But.

Romance - as in relationships - are a part of the human condition. There is no such thing as humans interacting with each other and "nothing" taking place.

-With that in mind, that is why the detail section says "We don't want no stinkin' Romance here! If there is a relationship, it MUST take place off page and NOT be a major factor in the plot."

To me, this was an acknowledgement that some romance will happen (it even happens in LotR and that is NOT romance) but it needs not to be the focus of the story/plotline. If romance IS the focus...it's a romance.

-Also, I have not read the majority of the books on this list (I've only votes on 3). Per GR rules, I cannot remove any books that I don't have real knowledge about. So, for the rest of the books, I'm guessing that I would need a thread with comments to show content?

-Also - Re: 1st book in series. This is a limitation requirement in order to keep the list from becoming unwieldy. Over time, if limitations are not made, the list gets bogged down with tons and tons of books in the same series. As the list gets longer (because a member HAS to add their favorite book in the Mercy Thompson series which is #54 although books 1-53 are also listed) the list becomes unusable. GR will not let me clean this kind of thing up because it's not "my" list. Others have voted on the list and I did not limit the list before hand. See this list (Best Fantasy Books with Strong Women Characters) for example: https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/2...

This list has over 400 books but a lot of them are just different entries in the same series. I've requested permission to clean it up but was denied. Over time, I've gotten discouraged and stopped maintaining such lists that have gotten out of my control. I've tried to make sure this doesn't suffer from the same issues.

[Shomeret]

Lexxi Kitty wrote: "Polenth wrote: "Lexxi Kitty wrote: "Hmm, that's a tough one. "no romance". I mean, even Jim Butcher includes romance in his books. Just not, as far as I recall, sex.

I'm guessing the list is ai..."

Mercy does eventually go beyond flirting with Adam, and there's a second Patricia Briggs urban fantasy series called Alpha and Omega that you're confusing with this one, Lexxi Kitty. That one is about two werewolves who live together.

[Lexxi Kitty]

Shomeret wrote: "Lexxi Kitty wrote: "Polenth wrote: "Lexxi Kitty wrote: "Hmm, that's a tough one. "no romance". I mean, even Jim Butcher includes romance in his books. Just not, as far as I recall, sex.

I'm gue..."

Nah, I was talking about how Samuel moved in with Mercy, briefly, when he was . . . well, I'm going to go spoilery, if I continue that line. Samuel and Mercy had had a relationship before the book series started. While living in her trailer near Adam, Samuel came by and moved in. I forget now the excuse, but they, the werewolf, and the werecoyote, lived together briefly. (ETA: Samuel being the brother of Charles, and Charles being the werewolf in Alpha and Omega).

Yeah, I know Mercy and Adam go beyond flirting, but I was trying to only limit my comments to the first book, and/or not move into spoiler territory.

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*]

PLEASE don't spoil any of these books for me! I've only read 1 book of Mercy Thompson but I own most of them. PLEASE think about teh children.

Someone already spoiled the hell of Harry Dresden. :(

[Artsolameelian]

What is Urban Fantasy?

[Mary]

Artsolameelian wrote: "What is Urban Fantasy?"

Fantasy set in a contemporary setting, involving some sort of fantasy element -- werewolves, vampires, wizards, and the fae folk are common -- living secretly among us, in which usually a mundane character stumbles on the magic.

You note I include nothing about cities. The wonders of semantic drift.

[Trike]

Mary wrote: "Artsolameelian wrote: "What is Urban Fantasy?"

Fantasy set in a contemporary setting, involving some sort of fantasy element -- werewolves, vampires, wizards, and the fae folk are common -- living secretly among us, in which usually a mundane character stumbles on the magic.

You note I include nothing about cities. The wonders of semantic drift. "

We need to fight that tendency. If there aren't cities, then it isn't Urban. Words mean things and we need to use them correctly or else we might as well just grunt like cavemen.

As I mentioned upthread, the Sookie Stackhouse books have all of the elements of most UF, except its rural. Therefore it is Contemporary Fantasy, probably Paranormal Romance.

[Lexxi Kitty]

Yeah, on my own shelves I try to put books that I've read that are called "Urban Fantasy" by others or by self-promotion onto PNR, Urban Fantasy, or just plain Fantasy, depending on whether or not they fit my own meanings. One of which would include an urban setting for Urban Fantasy.

As far as I know, PNR doesn't require the action to take place in a city. Though I won't put a book that would otherwise be Urban Fantasy on the PNR shelf for lacking action in an urban setting. I'd put it on plain Fantasy. Unless it meet some of the PNR stuff. Which basically means romance. With paranormal creatures involved.

(It is probably too late at night to write. I felt like I was writing sideways, backwards, and through a hole while writing above. Obviously my brain isn't engaged).

ETA: I think the one exception I made would involve Jim Butcher's books, as they started off Urban Fantasy, before branching out into spending lots of time on islands, and in fantasy realms. I'll have to go back to see what shelves I put those specific books onto.

[Tommy]

Trike wrote: "As I mentioned upthread, the Sookie Stackhouse books have all of the elements of most UF, except its rural. Therefore it is Contemporary Fantasy, probably Paranormal Romance."

While not used as often as its more popular sister, Urban Fantasy, Rural Fantasy is actually a legitimate genre. And one that intrigues me a bit more than UF, but that's just me.

[Sonia]

In my head, the Sookie Stackhouse books were urban fantasy. The fact they take place in a small town instead of a city never felt important enough to put it in a different category.

[carol.]

Sonia wrote: "In my head, the Sookie Stackhouse books were urban fantasy. The fact they take place in a small town instead of a city never felt important enough to put it in a different category."

I agree with the UF designation-for me the genre is not characterized by a city so much as a certain cultural context and story style.

Besides, if Sookie is 'rural' fantasy, what happens in the books that take place largely in the cities? That book is UF but the others aren't?

[Kateb]

I don't put books into categories, I put them into good or bad ( and then get rid of the latter)Anita Blake are great books, although they went off the rail there for a while, move over 50 shades, I still persisted and am pleased they have moved back to a good story line.
I am re reading them at the moment , after reading this post I though wow haven't read them for a while

[Tommy]

Kateb wrote: "I don't put books into categories, I put them into good or bad ( and then get rid of the latter)Anita Blake are great books, although they went off the rail there for a while, move over 50 shades, ..."

I agree with you about 80%-90% of the time about not labeling, but there is a portion of the time where my reading wants are very specific and the idea of something being set in a farm town vs. a city will sway me pretty heavily.

[Trike]

Carol. wrote: "Sonia wrote: "In my head, the Sookie Stackhouse books were urban fantasy. The fact they take place in a small town instead of a city never felt important enough to put it in a different category."

I agree with the UF designation-for me the genre is not characterized by a city so much as a certain cultural context and story style."

That annoys me, frankly. "Urban" means "city." Why use words at all if you're going to randomly redefine them?

The Stackhouse books are Contemporary Fantasy, some entries being Paranormal Romance. I mean, the categories exist for a reason.

[Mary]

Why call atoms atoms when they no longer are considered unsplittable? Words and phrases take on lives of their own.

[Tommy]

Mary wrote: "Why call atoms atoms when they no longer are considered unsplittable? Words and phrases take on lives of their own."

While I won't go as far as Trike and say I'm annoyed, I agree with the general point he's trying to make enough to point out that discovering more about the atom and still calling it the atom doesn't quite equal calling a rural setting an urban setting.

[Trike]

Mary wrote: "Why call atoms atoms when they no longer are considered unsplittable? Words and phrases take on lives of their own."

The analogy you're looking for here is calling an atom a molecule. Or a car a truck. Or a cat a dog.

I've been seeing this a lot lately in all aspects of life, which is why it's annoying me. A friend of mine who teaches gender studies posted an article about gay men sleeping with straight guys. Someone who has sex with both men and women is bisexual. That's why we have that word. Redefining "straight" to mean "sometimes homosexual" makes the word unclear and ultimately useless. Another friend called a three-doored car a "coupe" when that word specifically means a two-door car. We need another word for whatever 3-door automobiles are, but coupe already has a definition.

I'm just trying to hold the line against anarchy, is all.

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*]

Trike wrote: "The analogy you're looking for here is calling an atom a molecule. Or a car a truck. Or a cat a dog.

I've been seeing this a lot lately in all aspects of life, which is why it's annoying me. A friend of mine who teaches gender studies posted an article about gay men sleeping with straight guys. Someone who has sex with both men and women is bisexual. That's why we have that word. Redefining "straight" to mean "sometimes homosexual" makes the word unclear and ultimately useless. Another friend called a three-doored car a "coupe" when that word specifically means a two-door car. We need another word for whatever 3-door automobiles are, but coupe already has a definition.

I'm just trying to hold the line against anarchy, is all."

I have to agree here. One of my biggest pet peeves regarding genres is the way romance it treated. Romance is a very large genre with about a billion sub-genres. But Romance is now getting shelved with SFF because "vampires and werewolves!"

I love romance. I read it all the time.

I love SFF. I read it all the time.

I feel both genres get the short end of the stick as people start to redefine the genres. SFF readers get pissed off cause they want to read a UF or a standard fantasy and end up getting recommended tons of PNR. Romance readers and the Romance genre gets maligned because SFF readers are getting romance forced on them. Its a mess.

[Lexxi Kitty]

Trike wrote: "Mary wrote: "Why call atoms atoms when they no longer are considered unsplittable? Words and phrases take on lives of their own."

The analogy you're looking for here is calling an atom a molecule..."

A 3 door automobile? I have never heard of a 3 door automobile.

*looks online*

Hmms, I see a 2016 Hyundai Veloster Coupe called a 3 door car. Looking at the picture of the car online, it's a car with two front doors and one back door on the passenger side. Never heard of that before, nor seen that before. huh.

ETA: hehehe. I haven't driven since 2011. I now see that Hyundai released the '3 door coupe' in 2011.

[Artsolameelian]

So.... Supernatural is urban fantasy?

[Lexxi Kitty]

Artsolameelian wrote: "So.... Supernatural is urban fantasy?"

The television show? I've only watched the first batch of episodes in the first season, so I've no idea how things progressed. The first batch, though, seemed to have more of a Gothic Horror vibe to it than Urban Fantasy.

So, seemed more horror than fantasy, and didn't appear to take place in cities. Which some have noted, the lack of taking place in cities part, matters, while others have noted that that aspect doesn't matter. Regardless, seems more horror than fantasy to me.

[Mary]

Horror and Fantasy, except when treated as marketing categories, have a lot of overlap in the region where the horrific is clearly also the fantastic.

[Aaron]

Urban Fantasy is the current wave of contemporary fantasy that involves the hidden underbelly of the city.

Because of it's popularity people want to categorize it in the closest popular genre. Just like how lots of things get called dubstep, when they arn't dubstep. It's the popular subgenre now so it kind of becomes the genre for everything simliarish to it.

[Trike]

Artsolameelian wrote: "So.... Supernatural is urban fantasy?"

No. Contemporary Fantasy.

[Erin *Proud Book Hoarder*]

Trike wrote: "That annoys me, frankly. "Urban" means "city." Why use words at all if you're going to randomly redefine them?
"

In UF case Urban means 'our world' with fantasy elements, not city particularly.

And Carol I agree with you on Sookie - definitely Urban Fantasy to me too. A lot of UF has mystery elements. I'd say Anita came first though, but not 100% sure.

[Erin *Proud Book Hoarder*]

Aaron wrote: "Urban Fantasy is the current wave of contemporary fantasy that involves the hidden underbelly of the city.

Because of it's popularity people want to categorize it in the closest popular genre. Jus..."

A lot of Urban Fantasy doesn't involved hidden underbelly of the city though. Never heard that. Really UF crosses over with so many genres it can get confusing. Paranormal Romance comes to mind too of course.

[Michael]

Personally, this discussion just goes to show why I always though "urban fantasy" was a stupid categorization. If you use it as synonymous with "contemporary fantasy" then what's the point. If you insist on using it literally, then surely the genre would include fantasy set in ancient Rome or Atlantis just as well as modern day Chicago or New York. All those are "urban" settings. If you are going to impose additional limitations beyond those evident in the term, what us the fundamental difference between the Hollows series (set in urban Cincinnati) and the the Sookie Stackhouse series (set in rural Bon Temps)? Does the setting make a fundamental difference in the stories? Why not just call them both "contemporary fantasy" and be done with it?

[Trike]

Erin (Paperback stash) *is juggle-reading* wrote: "Trike wrote: "That annoys me, frankly. "Urban" means "city." Why use words at all if you're going to randomly redefine them?
"

In UF case Urban means 'our world' with fantasy elements, not city particularly..."

Jeez, kids today.

Urban Fantasy without the urban is just Contemporary Fantasy. It's not like these genres are 200 years old: most of us were there when they were being named.

Plus, there are the words themselves. If you remove "urban" from it, you then start down the road to taking "science" out of "Science Fiction" and "romance" out of Paranormal Romance. Then what do you have? Anarchy!

You get people saying to you, "Oh, you liked 2001: A Space Odyssey? Well then, you should try The Amityville Horror. They're practically the same!"

[Aaron]

Michael wrote: "Personally, this discussion just goes to show why I always though "urban fantasy" was a stupid categorization. If you use it as synonymous with "contemporary fantasy" then what's the point. If you ..."

It was a fine categorization it just gets ruined a bit because it's a popular subgenre that people try to use like a genre in of itself.

[Mary]

Ain't semantic drift grand.

[Aaron]

Mary wrote: "Ain't semantic drift grand."

I mean it's not that bad and if I was a bookstore I would group contemporary fantasy with urban fantasy. Honestly the harder thing to split is the PNR/Contemporary Fantasy line, because the reader overlap isn't nearly as high.

[Lexxi Kitty]

I do not think I've ever seen a bookstore that separated out Science Fiction and Fantasy. Much less separated out Urban Fantasy from anything else. Of course I haven't been to a physical bookstore in forever and a day.

Let me look. Science Fiction and Fantasy are not separated out on Amazon. At least on the top level. Let's see, breaking that down we get:
Science Fiction & Fantasy
Fantasy (212,750)
Gaming (12,734)
Science Fiction (197,166)
Writing (224)

hmms. Gaming.

Breaking down fantasy gets
Fantasy
Alternate History (11,407)
Anthologies (15,601)
Arthurian (685)
Coming of Age (4,269)
Dark (12,781)
Epic (36,504)
Historical (14,263)
History & Criticism (1,047)
Humorous (2,652)
Magical Realism (3,567)
Myths & Legends (3,351)
New Adult & College (1,168)
Paranormal & Urban (58,738)
Superheroes (5,327)
Sword & Sorcery (15,080)

So urban gets pushed into Paranormal there.

Barnes and Noble also offer up a merged Science Fiction & Fantasy. Which does not seem able to be broken down further into separate SF & Fantasy genres. Just broken into subjects under both.

Alternate Realities - Fiction
Fantasy Fiction
High Tech and Hard Science Fiction
J. R. R. Tolkien - The Lord of the Rings
Other Fantasy Fiction Categories
Other Science Fiction Categories
Role-Playing Game Fiction
Science Fiction & Fantasy Media Tie-In Fiction
Social Science Fiction
Space Exploration - Fiction
Star Trek Fiction
Star Wars Fiction

Wait, Fantasy is hidden in there. As are "Other Science Fiction categories" (And "other fantasy categories").

Breaking down further, B&N at least makes an attempt to separate out:
Contemporary Fantasy
Paranormal Fantasy
Urban Fantasy

[Krazykiwi]

I suspect gaming would likely be stuff like Dragonlance, Warhammer 40k - they're pretty much straight up sci-fi or fantasy books, but set in a world originally created for a game. Outside those two franchises, which are maybe big enough the books escaped the game, they're a pretty hard sell to people who don't play the game they're based on. So I guess separating them out makes some kind of sense from a "where would I look for a book based on Shadowrun on the bookstore shelves" perspective.

Which is, I guess, the perspective that until recently decided what genre books were marketed under, when physical bookshelves were the only real estate available. The fact we *can* assign multiple genres/categories to books is relatively a recent happening.

[Mary]

Krazykiwi wrote: "I suspect gaming would likely be stuff like Dragonlance, Warhammer 40k - they're pretty much straight up sci-fi or fantasy books, but set in a world originally created for a game. Outside those two..."

Gaming tie-ins.

[Erin *Proud Book Hoarder*]

Trike wrote: "Jeez, kids today.

Urban Fantasy without the urban is just Contemporary Fantasy. It's not like these genres are 200 years old: most of us were there when they were being named.

Plus, there are the words themselves. If you remove "urban" from it, you then start down the road to taking "science" out of "Science Fiction" and "romance" out of Paranormal Romance. Then what do you have? Anarchy!

You get people saying to you, "Oh, you liked 2001: A Space Odyssey? Well then, you should try The Amityville Horror. They're practically the same!"

"

Condescending remarks aside, I still like the UF label. I think it comes from me eyeing the Romance divisions - contemporary always means modern romance, and not all Urban Fantasy means set in modern times. There's historical steampunk urban fantasy or historical urban fantasy - it sounds odd saying contemporary historical fantasy, so I'll just still with Urban Fantasy myself.