Goodreads Librarians Group discussion
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Serieses!
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Is this a series?
As I said I don't think it is against the rules to delete the English series, but for the moment I am against that (original series still has more books than English series). Also as I said - we should wait for other librarians to weight in. Ultimately it is not my decision but my opinion and vote is for the series page to stay.
But there still is no reason for the "English publication series". I wonder if it just the fact that so few books get translated into English, compared to books into other languages, that this is somehow seen as necessary. It would mess up the whole series thing if all languages started doing the same, there might be dozens of series for Poirot, for example. Yeah, it's not nice when there are translations missing but that's how it goes.
Tytti wrote: "But there still is no reason for the "English publication series". I wonder if it just the fact that so few books get translated into English, compared to books into other languages, that this is s..."I am not disagreeing with you. In addition I don't really like how the series are titled. I don't think the case was handled very well. If I was creating the series I would have probably used only one series page, but since both have been created I just don't think that is causing problems for the database. However if it is ruled for the English page series to be deleted that would be fine with me. Until than I would keep it.
If both pages are kept I would, also like to know about the numbering. I would prefer if the original series is just called "Dark Iceland" and moved up (as primary) and that numbering used for all editions, but I'm not sure if the current titles are against the rules (different numbering for different editions).
I created the English Translation Order because people were changing the order of books on the Original series page. A lot of people thought #6 was #2 and kept moving it and changing it. They were trying to fit their understanding of the series as they came across it (in English) onto the original.That is why I added this note in the original series:
"DO NOT CHANGE THE NUMBERING ON THIS!!! THIS IS FOR THE ORIGINAL AND NEEDS TO BE ACCURATE.
THERE IS A SEPARATE SERIES FOR THE ENGLISH VERSIONS, SEE: https://www.goodreads.com/series/1707..."
Even with that note, someone after changed things. That was when I created the English series and added it to the note linking to it (so it appears in the form I quoted above). I figured, people can't be bothered to stop and read an all-caps note, perhaps they can pay more attention when it's in the series listing -- Nightblind (Dark Iceland - English Publication Order #2; Original Publication #6). And guess what? Since they've been listed, no one's messed with anything. So in that regard it worked!
I thought, because at the time of its creation, there was only 2 books out (#1 & 2 for English and #2 and 6 in the original), that making a series for the English Translation Order would help alert people that, while it may be book #2 for you, it's NOT #2 originally and it leave the original as is. Also, at the time, though it seems it was changed, Amazon was listing them as #1, #2, etc. When #2 was really book 6. So people would look there, see it as #2 and change the original series to fit that.
Though Snowblind is still noted as being #1, when it's not, it's actually #2 originally.
https://www.amazon.com/Snowblind-Dark...
Someone seeing that could possibly change and move things around, thinking that, yes it's #1 and doesn't that make sense to them because it was published first. When Showblind is #2 originally. That's the sort of thing I was seeing.
Also, though they are NOT accurate all the time. FantasticFiction is used by people and they list them in the English pub order -
https://www.fantasticfiction.com/j/ra...
FictFact as well - https://www.fictfact.com/series/40321...
Wiki - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnar_...
(I've had to correct a lot of errors caused by people using these sites before). So that order is out there....
But with the series listed as they are now on GR, people seemed to have gotten a clue and stopped that.
It made more sense at the time. As I said, at the time it was created, there were only 2 books (and one coming out) and I created it due to seeing people messing with and moving things around in the Original - and they ignored my note telling them not to. Also, the English translation became the default book viewed, so that is why I added the series name - English first, then Original.
The creation of the series had nothing to do with English being more important. Just that the English books became default (as they were the most added/reviewed), they were published out of order and to stop confusion and changes from the original, it was created.
I've seen series created for Japanese translations that cut up a book into 2 parts or other languages that have changes to them. I've also seen series created for chronological or "x universe world" (Such as the Harry Bosch Universe series). So I figured it was within the rules.
Now that all the books are translated, perhaps the English one can be removed. Perhaps people will not mess with the Original anymore. Or maybe there's a way to lock things so people don't? Lock editing to the original series? If so, that might be the better solution. Or maybe there would be some better way to stop unnecessary editing and changing to the original. I don't know.
I was only trying to fix a problem and that, at the time was the best solution I could come up with. It was done and created because there was a problem/need and if there was no need, it would have never been created. I don't go around creating English Translation Orders for any and all series! Sorry, if this was incorrect or wrong to do. As I said, I was only trying to help and fix a problem. :0( If I were to go back, I would have just asked in the Librarian Group and left others to deal with it. Heh. But the "damage" is done. If it's decided to delete the English series, that's okay. As I said, I was only trying to fix a problem I saw. Hopefully it won't than be a problem in the future with the books/series and some better solution can be found.
Edit to add:
The author also seems to take note of the differences between them. At the bottom he lists "Original publication order of the series in Iceland" and lists them in the Original order. This is after he lists them in the ENGLISH order.
http://ragnar-jonasson.squarespace.co...
Yet on his website he also has this:
"His debut Snowblind, first in the Dark Iceland series, went to number one in the Amazon Kindle charts shortly after publication. The book was also a no. 1 Amazon Kindle bestseller in Australia. The second book in the series, Nightblind, also became a no. 1 Amazon Kindle bestseller in Australia."
http://ragnar-jonasson.squarespace.co...
Note this DOES NOT reflect the Original order, where those books are #2 & 6. They are only # 1 & 2 in the English order!
This only causes confusion with the order, which I discussed above at length, with people assuming the second book translated was #2, when it's really #6 originally.
I was just trying to keep the accuracy of the series and the original - that's why the order is separate.
I believe policy is to create a separate series if the order is different.For example, rivka says so in this discussion and I know I've seen her say it other times as well.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
I have to agree with Melanie. If a series order is different in translation, we make another series. It's just unusual that the "in translation" here is to English, but otherwise it's business as usual. Normally they wouldn't have the same name either, I would expect the original series to have it's name in the original language.
I really don't understand why English translations should be read in a different order than German or Polish translations or the originals when the stories are the same. The difference seems to be that English readers just don't understand that novels can be translated out of order (or that not every novel in the series gets translated), for the rest of us that's quite normal. But I guess I was right then, English translations are more important than the rest because it would be a mess if every language started doing the same.
Why so much focus on it being English in this instance? There are many instances where Chinese, Japanese, Korean and other languages are given translations of English works and often they either cut a book up into multiple books or they are out of order. They are then given their own series page/ordering. I've seen it many times! This isn't done for just English translations. In the case of Dark Iceland series it just happens to be translated into English from the original language, not the other way around. Since they're full novels, they were merged into the original edition. If the English language versions there 2 books for every 1 of the original, they'd be kept separate and this probably wouldn't be an issue for you as the original books would be on their own and the English editions totally separate.
Look at Harry Potter - https://www.goodreads.com/series/list...
There's -
Harry Potter Japanese Split-Volume Children's Edition (20 books)
Harry Potter Persian/Farsi Split-Volume Edition (9 books)
Harry Potter Korean Split-Volume Paperback (23 books)
Here's some more -
The Lunar Chronicles Split-Volume Edition - for various Asian languages
https://www.goodreads.com/series/1920...
Mistborn Split-Volume Edition (6 books) - appears to be for Hungarian
https://www.goodreads.com/series/1915...
アサシンの王女 series - Throne of Glass, Japanese language
https://www.goodreads.com/series/189744
Robin Hobb series - Many examples https://www.goodreads.com/series/list...
Most of her series listing are for foreign language translations that differ from the original!
Some of her books are listed in multiple series. Example: The Willful Princess and the Piebald Prince (Realms of the Elderlings, #0.5)
Realms of the Elderlings 0.5 - Overarching/Universe series
Farseer Trilogy 0.5 - Specific series
L'assassin royal 0.6 - French edition series.
A Saga do Assassino - Portuguese editions
https://www.goodreads.com/series/65022
Cycle de l'Assassin Royal - French editions
https://www.goodreads.com/series/46502
O Regresso do Assassino - Portuguese editions
https://www.goodreads.com/series/6501...
L'assassin royal - French editions
https://www.goodreads.com/series/8977...
Les Aventuriers de la mer - French editions
https://www.goodreads.com/series/1001...
Les cités des Anciens - French editions
https://www.goodreads.com/series/8464...
Farseer (Czech) - Czech editions
https://www.goodreads.com/series/1672...
These are different ordering and publication that are language based.
Alternately, here's a series originally published in Chinese and later into English. It does not need another series for translation because the books were published in the same order as the original! https://www.goodreads.com/series/1899...
There's no need to make another language-based series because it fits the original and isn't different.
As you can see, the practice of giving another language its own series page if the book order or presentation is different occurs for many languages, NOT just English.
The only difference with a lot of these examples is that they are split-editions and therefore not merged with the full novel and therefore kept separate. If they weren't like that, you'd could see them in a similar situation as the Dark Iceland series if their order was different. Since foreign language editions are merged, the entry will be shared by all series, with the default one (decided by most adds/reviews) predominant. If I had more time, I'd look for specific examples of full novels that are translated out of order, but I don't have the time for that. My point is, other languages and their issues with translating English novels are addressed and have been, they're given their own series pages. What the big deal about it occurring the other way around?
Mod
The original publication order should be the first listed series for each work in the series.
rivka wrote: "I see no reason for this series to be deleted. If there are other translations with yet another publication order, a new series can be created for them as well.The original publication order shou..."
Sounds reasonable. How should the series titling go, though?
I can't find what the series was called originally, if it was called anything. So they are both "Dark Iceland," which without the - English Publication Order or Original Publication tacked on, can lead to confusion.
I found this on the author's website:
"The series is set in and around Siglufjörður: an idyllically quiet fishing village in Northern Iceland, where no one locks their doors – accessible only via a small mountain tunnel. Ari Thór Arason: a rookie policeman on his first posting, far from his girlfriend in Reykjavik – with a past that he’s unable to leave behind." http://www.ragnarjonasson.com/
Perhaps the original could be called "Siglufjörður" and the English verions "Dark Iceland" - at least until the original series name, if there is any, is know?
So Snowblind (Siglufjörður #2; Dark Iceland #1)
(Also that would take the "English" translation focus out of the title which apparently gets some panties in a wad)
Instead of Snowblind (Dark Iceland - Original Publication #2; Dark Iceland - English Publication Order #1)
Since they are both "Dark Iceland" something needs to be added to differentiate them, I think.
And since the English pub #ing was added to the titles, like they are, people have stopped moving with, messing with and trying to change the original to fit their understanding of the series and numbering. So I think it's beneficial to have them both listed in the title/series.
Thoughts?
Unless someone has other ideas?
Mod
Unless someone knows a more official title, that sounds reasonable to me.
But I didn't mean the titles should have more than one edition. I don't suggest that at all. Each edition should have just the series appropriate to that edition, as is usual for translated series.
rivka wrote: "Asteropê wrote: "Perhaps the original could be called "Siglufjörður" and the English verions "Dark Iceland""Unless someone knows a more official title, that sounds reasonable to me.
But I didn't..."
I understand, but the reason by I added them to the title (not sure if you read my post above, it was long, so understandable if not, LOL) was when the series order was not listed in the titles, people moved them around, tried to change the order of the original series and assumed that #6 of the original was book #2 (because that is what it is in the English order). That was the reason why I created the English Translation series, to keep the original accurate. Now even the author's own website, along with many others (Amazon, FictFact, FantasticFiction, Publisher sites, etc) list them in the English order. My worry would be without the series added to the titles (both of them) in the parenthesis, people may yet again start moving and changing the original.
And once the order was added to the titles of the books, people stopped moving, editing and changing things because it's clearly listed there. But that was when they were both called "Dark Iceland." Perhaps with one called Dark Iceland and the other Siglufjörður, people would be less likely to do that?
I can work on changing the series name for the original and all of that. I really do think in this case, it may be beneficial to have it "Snowblind (Siglufjörður #2; Dark Iceland #1)" but if that is a hard no, I will remove/edit that.
And have the originals with (Siglufjörður #2) and the English as (Dark Iceland #1) - so each has their own series thing, not both.
Edit: Okay, have changed the main series titles to
Siglufjörður - for the original
Dark Iceland - for the English
https://www.goodreads.com/series/list...
I have not yet edited the series data in ()s yet. Will do that once I get a go-no go on things. :-)
Edit2:
https://www.goodreads.com/series/1440...
The original series - I changed only 1 edition of book #1...because the English translation is default, it would show up now as Snowblind (Dark Iceland #1) in the #2 book slot of the original.
I also made the original series as the primary/default for the English edition - is that proper?
Mod
I would think if the English editions had the English order series, and both series have notes, it might help with discouraging other librarians re-ordering.
that's not a series isn't it? https://www.goodreads.com/series/1335... (I'm for a quite clear: it's not but, thought asking is useful as it does have "some" books in it)and: do the real audiobooks more at the end of the list not need Enid Blyton as their primary author? (or is Gabriele Hartmann really correct?)
Lachgas wrote: "that's not a series isn't it? https://www.goodreads.com/series/1335... (I'm for a quite clear: it's not but, thought asking is useful as it does have "some" books in it)and: ..."
There is a whole wiki about this series -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fam...
Article in German - https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%BC...
"...The novels feature the adventures of a group of young children – Julian, Dick, Anne and Georgina (George) – and their dog Timmy....The stories take place in the children's school holidays after they have returned from their respective boarding schools. Each time they meet they get caught up in an adventure, often involving criminals or lost treasure. Sometimes the scene is set close to George's family home at Kirrin Cottage in Dorset, such as the picturesque Kirrin Island, owned by George and her family in Kirrin Bay. George's own home and various other houses the children visit or stay in are hundreds of years old and often contain secret passages or smugglers' tunnels. In some books the children go camping in the countryside, on a hike or holiday together elsewhere. The settings, however, are almost always rural and enable the children to discover the simple joys of cottages, islands, the English and Welsh countryside and sea shores, as well as an outdoor life of picnics, lemonade, bicycle trips and swimming."
This is the main series - https://www.goodreads.com/series/4201...
The one you linked appears to be for a German translation order, which is different than the English.
Book #1 in English is #20 in German -
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1...
The Famous Five #1, Fünf Freunde Hörspiele #20
So, my understanding is that, because that is for a German translation order, which differs from the English and the books in English constitute a series, than the one you linked is also a series. (At least in regard to The Famous Five books, there's about 20 of them?)
Mod
Correct.
And it looks like there were additional books written in German by later authors after Blyton's death. Which is why those have different authors.
but "Hörspiele" is a quite misleading term then because it applies to all editions not only the audiobooks/audioplays (which is what's meant by Hörspiel)
Maybe just called it - Fünf Freunde? That's what is part of their titles in the German version and appears to be what it's called in German (the series). And in that way, it'd mirror the English name of Five Friends. Just an idea. Some might have a better solution.
I don't know/think the audiobooks would need their own listing?
Yes in Germany they're called "Fünf Freunde" (I loved them)I'm not sure IF the audiobooks have a different order from the german paper books (only read them) but if they have a series for them would be kind of confusing in my opinion because the series sticks on all editions (would be more something for a static listopia then)
That looks like an imprint to me https://www.goodreads.com/series/2062... correct? (Late here so I may have overlooked something)
Mod
Hard to know if there are any common characters or not. There may be.
re: #374Amazon lists them as a series -
Book #1 - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01...
Series - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01...
Upon looking further it appears that they were first 4 novellas in an anthology that were then published as singles. These singles are then listed as a series.
This was the original anthology -
I have added it as a non-primary omnibus on the series list. If the series is deleted, no harm done.
I do not know if they share some common plot or characters, though. So I can't answer for that.
Edit: Read the anthology blurb!
"With their ten-year high school reunion on the horizon, four girlfriends make a pact to find reunion dates through online dating. But nothing is simple when they are Matched Online…
Seems like they do share possible characters and plot. "Four girlfriends" - not strangers. So there might be common ties throughout the stories.
Mod
I believe this is an imprint, yes? https://www.goodreads.com/series/2056...
Dreamspun Desires from Dreamspinner publishers.
It was a series listing, but was deleted. I remember seeing it and its disappearance. A list was created -
https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/9...
I just wanted confirmation before I thought to delete the series listing.
So okay to delete, it seems. Should it be flagged before it's deleted? If so, I'd need to flag it before I delete it. :-) (Unless someone else does it before me)
Mod
How about this one: https://www.goodreads.com/series/1551...No characters or settings in common, but there is a common illustrator for some editions of some of the books.
The story is that the authors got together and had a big pile of Froud's illustrations. Each picked the ones they wanted and wrote novels around them.
Only 2 of the 4 books were ever published with their intended illustrations and reprints of those two omitted the illustrations.
So, it's technically a collaborative project, with a common illustrator for some editions of 2 of the books and cover art for one edition of a third. But that doesn't apply to all editions - in fact, I don't think any of the default editions of these books contain Froud's artwork at all.
I created a listopia for this a long time ago, and that shows the Froud editions (when possible): https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/3...
And here's the illustrator's website with info about hte project: http://www.worldoffroud.com/books/fae...
Mod
Thanks, Rivka! I didn't think it qualified, and I'd cleaned it up once years ago but someone re-added it, so I figured I'd get a second opinion before deleting it again.
Mod
rivka wrote: "Cassandra wrote: "Series?https://www.goodreads.com/series/1173..."
Imprint."
Thank you! Deleted.
Mod
As far as the books, it seems likely they do not have any common characters etc., but it is possible that they do. Maybe someone who has read at least a couple would know?
Edit: Looking at the reviews for the collection, it does not appear that they do have common characters.
Lachgas wrote: "are two parts of a book considered as a series? https://www.goodreads.com/series/181348and similar https://www.goodreads.com/series/181349 (three parts of Henry VI)"
They often can be if a single book is published elsewhere broken apart. We put them in series to help people connect the book. You can also see this when an author releases a serial.
However, having looked at the links you provided, I would not consider them a series. Henry IV Part 1 is a separate play from Henry IV Part 2 and I don't believe they should be put together in a series.
rivka wrote: "The description has got to go. No sales information (including charitable donation info) belongs in book or series descriptions on Goodreads.As far as the books, it seems likely they do not have ..."
Full delete then?
Mod
#394 Yes, looks like an imprint to me too.
Thoughts of this? https://www.goodreads.com/series/5482...
From my understanding they only share "Savage" in the title.
Even the series description says they're stand-alone.
I looked at a few, they seem to bounce around in geography and focus on tribes.
Example:
#1 - Blackfoot
#2 - Kickapoo
#4 - Ottawa
#9 - Iroquois
#21 - Cheyenne
#33 - Winnebago
Etc.
It is unlikely that these books, with the moving around to so many tribes, locations and places book to book, would share any common characters.
Keep it a series or no?
are these childrens reading learning stages something that makes a series?https://www.goodreads.com/series/78345
(I would doubt, but as there are a few .. better make sure)
#397 the reviews of the books I looked at don't mention common characters ... to me that looks just like "in every book there's some indian and a woman and they fall in love ... doesn't kook connected to me
Asteropê wrote: "Why so much focus on it being English in this instance? There are many instances where Chinese, Japanese, Korean and other languages are given translations of English works and often they either cu..."I didn't notice any one of them changing the order of the books. But if English readers want to read that series out of order (2,6,3,4,5, instead of 2,3,4,5,6) then that's fine by me. I just happen to think it's stupid and was trying to be helpful. I know better next time.
Mod
But possible, especially since they are all by one author. Unless you have read some of the books an confirmed, or can check with someone who has, I'm not sure we have enough information to be sure.
Mod
No.
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So the book #6 should be read before #3 because that was the order they were once translated even though they are both out now? I don't think so. There are plenty of series that have been translated into other languages out of order, it's very common actually, and that doesn't change the reading order one bit as it is the choice of the publisher, not the author. Usually in those cases the order doesn't mean much anyway.
(And having the publication order in one translated language but not in others would make it seem that it's more important, especially when it's the default series shown in the book pages.)