Nothing But Reading Challenges discussion
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Martin, George R.R. - A Game of Thrones (buddy read/1st in group series read) Start date June 9th 2011
Lisarenee's answers to Lisa Kay’s Questions for Bran(8) – Daenerys(11)1) Before you found out what happened, were you apprehensive about Bran climbing all over Winterfall, especially when you discovered he was crawling the outer walls fraught with loose mortar? Did his direwolf cub’s growl cause you to have a sense of impending doom?
Yes, I thought the direwolf cub's howl wan a warning of danger.
2) Did it take you long to figure out who the man and woman were whom Bran overheard? Did you surmise both their identities at the same time, or just one?
No, I figured if she had any power over the King to suggest a different person be his Hand it had to be the Queen. Plus, I think he called her sister or she called him brother.
3) We learn from their dialogue that these two wished the King ill; did you think eavesdropping was an effective way to learn this? “That frighten cow shared Jon Arryn’s bed.” What do you deduce from this statement?
Eavesdropping was very effective. A lot of incest going on in this book. Wonder if any of the kids are the King's?
They didn't like her and she was very timid.
4) Since Bran is a POV character in this story, it would be surprising if he died so early in the story; therefore, what condition do you think he will be in after the push? (Any comments about the push?)
I'm not sure what condition he'll be in. Sounded like they didn't bother trying to fix his leg. Sad that such an active little guy would never be able to walk again.:( The push was expected. Not liking the Lannisters.
5) Were you surprised Tyrion slapped Prince Joffrey not once, but twice? What do you think his reasons were for emphatically insisting Prince Joffrey put aside his contemptuous attitude and seek out Lord and Lady Stark?
Trying to make him do what he should? Maybe he's the only one who disciplines him?
6) How much do you think Tyrion knows about the secrets of Queen Cersei and her twin, Ser Jaime, the Kingslayer?
Not sure was wondering that myself.
7) How did you feel about Jon Snow defying Catelyn in order to say good-bye to Bran? Why do you think she told him about her prayers?
Love Jon and not liking Catelyn. She's cruel.
8) Forget Viserus’ brooding boorishness at the wedding; to me, Magister Illyrio seems overly invested in Daenerys’ behavior. Are his reasons of a pedantic, prurient, or purely solicitous nature?
Haven't figured that one out yet. I'd gander his main reason is to gain something.
9) Are the three dragon eggs gifted to Dany by Magister Illyrio still viable? If so, does he know this? Are his actions and gift-giving consistent with his moral nature and personality?
I was wondering the same thing. Maybe I watched Eragon on too many times? Glad I'm not the only one to wonder if the eggs might be viable. I don't know if they're consistent with his nature and personality. Still haven't gotten a good grasp of him yet.
10) Looks like Khal Drago can only communicate to Daenerys with one word, but he uses it effectively, no? Comments.
LOL This seems like it is a relationship that can't work. I hope I'm wrong. Thought it was interesting that a lot of people thought Dany was going to kick some butt. I haven't seen any sign yet of her being handy with a blade or other weapon.
Vi's answers to Lisa Kay’s Questions for Bran(8) – Daenerys(11) 1) Before you found out what happened, were you apprehensive about Bran climbing all over Winterfall, especially when you discovered he was crawling the outer walls fraught with loose mortar? Did his direwolf cub’s growl cause you to have a sense of impending doom?
Yes, I thought it was a warning of some sort but did not expect the ending..
2) Did it take you long to figure out who the man and woman were whom Bran overheard? Did you surmise both their identities at the same time, or just one?
Huh, I knew the identities immediately after I read the starting. I thought it was pretty obvious (or maybe it's just me). With all the incest going on, we have to wonder about the kids. On an aside, how are they casting this in the show?
3) We learn from their dialogue that these two wished the King ill; did you think eavesdropping was an effective way to learn this? “That frighten cow shared Jon Arryn’s bed.” What do you deduce from this statement?
This part confused me. I'm not sure who they are referring to. And yes, eavesdropping was the only way to learn this.
4) Since Bran is a POV character in this story, it would be surprising if he died so early in the story; therefore, what condition do you think he will be in after the push? (Any comments about the push?)
I didn't expect Bran to take the hand. I know he's still young but really, what was he thinking? Once he took the hand though, I expected the push. To be fair, either way, he would have been a goner. I don't think he'd be able to walk.. nor climb. Poor guy.
5) Were you surprised Tyrion slapped Prince Joffrey not once, but twice? What do you think his reasons were for emphatically insisting Prince Joffrey put aside his contemptuous attitude and seek out Lord and Lady Stark?
Yes. I was surprised. But I think of all the three siblings, Tyrion is the only one who cares at least a bit and maybe tries to be honest and fair? And hopefully Joffrey will be a somewhat better man for this instead of the idiot he is now. Though with the people surrounding him, I doubt it.
6) How much do you think Tyrion knows about the secrets of Queen Cersei and her twin, Ser Jaime, the Kingslayer?
I think he knows more that what the twins think he knows. It is actually easy to overlook guys such as him and Jon. Not favored, easily ignored. And due to the circumstances, they'd probably know how to walk silently, avoid people etc.
7) How did you feel about Jon Snow defying Catelyn in order to say good-bye to Bran? Why do you think she told him about her prayers?
Initially I didn't like Catelyn for this. Now she's high on my dislike list. How can you show such a dislike towards a kid? And it's been, what 13-14 years? Shouldn't she be used to it by now? He already has enough problems being a bastard. I am not sure why she told him her prayers but she could have been more cruel because Bran's like this and she feels guilty because of the prayers. Reminds me of: Be careful of what you wish for. You might just get it.
8) Forget Viserus’ brooding boorishness at the wedding; to me, Magister Illyrio seems overly invested in Daenerys’ behavior. Are his reasons of a pedantic, prurient, or purely solicitous nature?
Nah, he definitely has something up his sleeve. Something he looks to gain from this. His helping Viserus is also fishy to me. He has some plans but whether that includes helping Viserus get the kingdom; I don't know.
9) Are the three dragon eggs gifted to Dany by Magister Illyrio still viable? If so, does he know this? Are his actions and gift-giving consistent with his moral nature and personality?
I am not sure too. It's like saving face. He has basically sold Daenerys and in return, she cannot be sent without a proper dowry/gifts. So, it could be a tactical move. On an aside, how cool would it be if the eggs turn out to viable and you actually get a dragon?
10) Looks like Khal Drago can only communicate to Daenerys with one word, but he uses it effectively, no? Comments.
I'm hoping that this relationship might just work. From the glimpses with the horse incident, I feel that Daenerys might be a better person if she was in a different atmosphere where she need not be afraid all the time. I think her growth (if it happens) will be interesting to read.
June 10th Questions Eddard(4)-Arya(7)1. We now know what was so significant about how the direwolf was killed. The fact the antler was the means of death suggests the King, whose symbol is an antler, must somehow cause the death of Eddard (aka Ned) leaving his children orphans. The question is should this be seen as a warning as to what could happen or a prophecy of what is to come? What do you think? Knowing what could happen can the outcome be changed?
A warning and it's time to move carefully. Trust wisely and stay a step ahead of the game. That's the only way to change the outcome.
2. Knowing how close the King and Ned were do you think Catelyn was right to encourage her husband to become the King's Hand?
Yes. He needs to be close to the action and needs more power to act. The game is already in motion and he doesn't have a clue other than what Lysa has declared.
3. Do you think Jon Snow's jealousy of his siblings tureborn siblings will cause trouble in the future?
I think he loves his siblings, but hates he is a bastard. He needs to let it go. I hope he has the strength of will to do it. I have faith in him.
4. Were you surprised that Catelyn would ask that Jon either go with her husband or become one of the brother's of the Night's Watch?
It surprised me that she hates Jon. I forgot for a moment the age in which this story takes place. Having her husband's bastard in her home, raised with her children, the trueborn heirs, is a slap in her face. Plus, she feels Jon's mother has a place in Eddard's heart that she can never have. Once I realized how she felt about him, it made sense she wants him away if Eddard isn't there.
5. Wall are usually put up for a reason. Any ideas as to why the Wall was put up thousands of years ago? Do you suspect it had something to do with the Others? What do you the the Others are?
The Others and maybe other things are the reason for the Wall. The Others are some kind of creepy dead or undead beings. Not enough info for more speculation.
6. What do you think of Tyrion's advice to Jon? "Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armor yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you."
It's good advice. Jon thinks being a bastard is a weakness or something that is shameful and thus it can be used to hurt him. If he embraces it then it can't be used against him. His father obviously loved Jon's mother and loved him enough to declare him 'son' to everyone in his land, to bring him to his home and raise him with his trueborn children, something that apparently just wasn't done in that age.
7. What character(s) do you find the most interesting so far?
Dany, Eddard, Jon and Arya are my favorites so far. It's early days yet.
8. Thoughts on why the Lannisters would want to get rid of Jon Arryn and then foster his son?
They want to put someone in place to rule his land. A game of deadly chess seems to be moving in the background of this story.
9. Sounds like Rhaegor did something to Ned's sister. Any thoughts on what that was?
I'm not sure that something was done to her. Maybe his only crime was he wanted her for himself.
I'm scrolling thru to find the daily questions without looking at anyone else's answers. That's hard, but I don't want to be influenced when I write my answers. LOLI copy and paste the questions into a Word document, read the chapters, answer the questions, copy and paste into the discussion. Viola! Once I do today's chapters and answers I'll go back and read everyone's posts. :)
1) Before you found out what happened, were you apprehensive about Bran climbing all over Winterfall, especially when you discovered he was crawling the outer walls fraught with loose mortar? Did his direwolf cub’s growl cause you to have a sense of impending doom?Yes. All that climbing and a lot of it on crumbling structures made me nervous, I don’t care how long or how often he does it. When the direwolf protested Bran’s climbing away I had a bad feeling.
2) Did it take you long to figure out who the man and woman were whom Bran overheard? Did you surmise both their identities at the same time, or just one?
I figured it had to be the queen, but it surprised me that her lover was her twin. Icky, icky, icky!
3) We learn from their dialogue that these two wished the King ill; did you think eavesdropping was an effective way to learn this? “That frighten cow shared Jon Arryn’s bed.” What do you deduce from this statement?
I’ve always loved a bit of eavesdropping to gain info in books. It can be a great way to learn info when it’s done right. I’m not sure about Lysa’s role in this, but she was Jon’s wife and may know things he told her when between the sheets.
4) Since Bran is a POV character in this story, it would be surprising if he died so early in the story; therefore, what condition do you think he will be in after the push? (Any comments about the push?)
I don’t see him dying. The fact he has his own POV tells me he’ll be important to the ‘game’. I think he’ll be in bad shape for a long time and I think he’d do better if they let his direwolf in his room with him. Oh, that push! What a villain Jaime is! I sincerely hope Eddard skewers him with Ice! Over and over and over!
5) Were you surprised Tyrion slapped Prince Joffrey not once, but twice? What do you think his reasons were for emphatically insisting Prince Joffrey put aside his contemptuous attitude and seek out Lord and Lady Stark?
Wow! I was surprised about the slap. And then a second slap. I’m actually glad someone is smacking that little putz around. What a spoiled rotten useless prince. I think Tyrion was just emphasizing what a poor royal education Joffrey has had up to this point and how he better learn what it means to be King or he won’t be King for long.
6) How much do you think Tyrion knows about the secrets of Queen Cersei and her twin, Ser Jaime, the Kingslayer?
I think he knows everything they’re doing and is biding his time, gathering their secrets. He seems to be a decent sort, but I worry about the love he feels for Jaime. I hope it doesn’t get him killed in the end. I’m hoping Tyrion is smart enough not to let Jaime’s supposed affection for him sway him when it counts. I can see that scenario coming already.
7) How did you feel about Jon Snow defying Catelyn in order to say good-bye to Bran? Why do you think she told him about her prayers?
I say good for Jon! He had every right to say good-bye to his brother. I think she told him because of the guilt she felt and he was leaving. She told someone, but didn’t have to worry about it being repeated.
8) Forget Viserus’ brooding boorishness at the wedding; to me, Magister Illyrio seems overly invested in Daenerys’ behavior. Are his reasons of a pedantic, prurient, or purely solicitous nature?
Ah, he is just plain slimy to me. He’s all about wealth and power, so I see him as being self-serving. She’s an investment for him and he wants his investment to not reflect badly on him.
9) Are the three dragon eggs gifted to Dany by Magister Illyrio still viable? If so, does he know this? Are his actions and gift-giving consistent with his moral nature and personality?
He said ‘the eons have turned them to stone’, but wouldn’t it be so freakin’ cool if the eggs were only viable to a trueborn Targaryen? If so, he may have heard rumors to that effect and that’s why he gave them to her. If not, then I’m not exactly sure what the gift means.
10) Looks like Khal Drago can only communicate to Daenerys with one word, but he uses it effectively, no? Comments.
Ah, I’m happy that Dany appears to have gotten herself a decent husband. She was forced to marry a forbidding and cruel looking stranger, but it looks like, at least so far, that he cares about her. He was gentle with her and gave her the option of refusing the consummation. He seems the type of leader that won’t be able to show his care for her in public (could be seen as a weakness), but it looks like he’ll be a good husband in private. That’s what I hope anyway.
I'm on my iPad right now, but I'll try to copy each days questions in first post tonight or tomorrow. Hopefully that will help.
Sarah wrote: "I didn't even think of that. But I think Dany mentions that when they left she was just a "quickening" in her mom. I would assume that means her mom was pregnant when they fled but barely so.ETA:..."
Yes, the Ursurper is Robert.
Lisarenee wrote: "Yes, but...1. Eddard/Ned doesn't seem the type to cheat. seems to think less of the King. Didn't sound all that interested in indulging in other woman. Course that just could be me reading too much in between the lines.
2. The last of the direwolves was white and seperate from the others. Could he just represent the offspring of another person (Lyanna) with a blood claim to the direwolf symbol? "
Both good points. I considered #2 when I posted... Hummmmm...
Okay, I thought so after the second section we read! Thanks Carol!
Responding to Answers to Lisa Kay’s Questions for Bran(8) – Daenerys(11)@Lisarenee - #2 While I didn't think it was Tyrion, I must admit I checked the appendix and tried to figure out if there were other brothers.
#6, 7, 8 - Ditto!
#10 - Hoping for both.
Responding to Answers to Lisa Kay’s Questions for Bran(8) – Daenerys(11)@Vi - #3 This sentence popped out at me, as it meant Lysa (Catelyn's sister/Lord Jon Arryn widow) may have been privy to "pillow talk" and therefore her life is in danger. Could be b/c our names are similar. :)
#6 - Hummm...you could be right about him knowing more then he lets on.
#7 - I think you might find the answer for her confiding her prayers to Jon in your response to #6. :) (She sees him as "nothing" - making it all the easier to confess.)
#10 - True!
Oh, wow! Jon as Lyanna's secret baby by Rhaegar? That would be a cool twist. I never thought of that. lol The timeline is about right, it's been almost 14 years since Robert killed Rhaegar, right? Dany was born 9 months after and she's 13. Jon is 14. Jon looks like Eddard while Lyanna was described as having a surpassing loveliness though. Interesting...edit: I just re-read the passage (pg 43) and now I believe Rhaegar must have raped her because Robert says to Eddard, "Ah, damn it, Ned, did you have to bury her in a place like this?"..."She should be on a hill somewhere, under a fruit tree, with the sun and clouds above her and the rain to wash her clean." It was "the rain to wash her clean" that makes me suspect she was raped.
Responding to Answers to Lisarenee's Questions Eddard(4)-Arya(7) @Carol
#3 - I have faith in Jon Snow too!
#5 - "The Others are some kind of creepy dead or undead beings." -- Oohh...maybe!
#9 - Ahhh... interesting.
Responding to Answers to Lisa Kay’s Questions for Bran(8) – Daenerys(11)@Carol
#2 - Ditto!
#4 - "I think he’d do better if they let his direwolf in his room with him." Whoa! The power to heal? Interesting theory; I like it!
#6 - "I’m actually glad someone is smacking that little putz around." FOFL! Too funny, Carol!
#7 - Good point about her telling Jon b/c he was leaving; hadn't formulated that.
#9 - So the viability of the eggs are to be determined; and so is whether Illyrio knows/suspects or not. ???
#10 - LOVE that he gave her an option on the wedding night.
Carol wrote: "It was "the rain to wash her clean" that makes me suspect she was raped..."Good find!
Carol, I agree with the Others being dead beings. It sounded like the newly dead guy (must look up name) came back to life. Zombie time. lol
Lisarenee wrote: "I'm on my iPad right now, but I'll try to copy each days questions in first post tonight or tomorrow. Hopefully that will help."It does, Lisarenee; it also looks very nice too! Thanks so much. :)
There were a lot of responses before I got to answer the questions so it was hard not to look at what everyone said! But I managed! 1) Before you found out what happened, were you apprehensive about Bran climbing all over Winterfall, especially when you discovered he was crawling the outer walls fraught with loose mortar? Did his direwolf cub’s growl cause you to have a sense of impending doom?
Unfortunately, I had watched the show so I knew what was going to happen, especially since the show and the book follow so closely. But there were clues to Bran's climbing being precarious.
2) Did it take you long to figure out who the man and woman were whom Bran overheard? Did you surmise both their identities at the same time, or just one?
Again, from the show I knew who they were. But also from hearing them talk I figured out who it was. I would have figured out the Queen first.
3) We learn from their dialogue that these two wished the King ill; did you think eavesdropping was an effective way to learn this? “That frighten cow shared Jon Arryn’s bed.” What do you deduce from this statement?
I think eavesdropping is a very effective way to learn of their ill intent towards Robert. We do not get their point of view at all in the book so we would have to rely on other characters for information. I believe the "frightened cow" is Lysa, Catelyn's sister.
4) Since Bran is a POV character in this story, it would be surprising if he died so early in the story; therefore, what condition do you think he will be in after the push? (Any comments about the push?)
They already speculate that he will be crippled, which I believe it true. I am very surprised he survived but since he does have other chapters it is safe to assume he will live. I couldn't believe how heartless Jaime Lannister was to push Bran off like that but then again he is trying to protect himself and his sister. Imagine what kind of repercussions there would be from that type of information getting out to everyone. Jaime and his sister (can't think of her name right now) would both be killed. The children would be put into turmoil and their parentage would be questioned.
5) Were you surprised Tyrion slapped Prince Joffrey not once, but twice? What do you think his reasons were for emphatically insisting Prince Joffrey put aside his contemptuous attitude and seek out Lord and Lady Stark?
I wasn't very surprised because although Tyrion is a dwarf he is still Joffrey's elder. Joffrey needs to learn respect no matter what. I believe Tyrion is trying to show Joffrey that when he is King he will have to ignore his personal feelings for common courtesy. He won't be able to act however he feels like acting.
6) How much do you think Tyrion knows about the secrets of Queen Cersei and her twin, Ser Jaime, the Kingslayer?
I think Tyrion knows there is something going on. He is very good at observing people. Especially, when Jaime and Cersei glanced at each other while talking about Bran's condition. He noticed there was something there right away.
7) How did you feel about Jon Snow defying Catelyn in order to say good-bye to Bran? Why do you think she told him about her prayers?
It was about time Jon stood up to Catelyn. He probably figured he wouldn't see her again for a long time so it wouldn't matter what she thought. He couldn't get in trouble for it because he was leaving right after. I think Catelyn told Jon because of his status. As a bastard he has little to no say in anything and I think people would be less inclined to believe anything he said, specifically if it were about Catelyn since I'm sure most know about her animosity towards him. Plus, Catelyn too knew he was leaving soon. There was no harm in telling him.
8) Forget Viserus’ brooding boorishness at the wedding; to me, Magister Illyrio seems overly invested in Daenerys’ behavior. Are his reasons of a pedantic, prurient, or purely solicitous nature?
I think he just wants to do right by them. I don't think he wants them to be led astray because they don't know how to act around the Dothraki. Maybe, he thinks there is something to gain by being on their good side, by helping them. Could he get a title or money once Viserys becomes King (if it ever happens)?
9) Are the three dragon eggs gifted to Dany by Magister Illyrio still viable? If so, does he know this? Are his actions and gift-giving consistent with his moral nature and personality?
He said the dragon eggs became stone so I don't believe those are viable. I believe the dragons are extinct. I haven't seen enough of Magister Illyrio to know if his actions/gift-giving are consistent with his moral nature/personality.
10) Looks like Khal Drago can only communicate to Daenerys with one word, but he uses it effectively, no? Comments.
I think it was very effective. I believe he knew that in some way he could comfort her and make her more comfortable with the situation. There was no way out of it, in order for the marriage to be seen as complete it would have to be consummated no matter her age. At this time it is not uncommon for young girls even at Dany's age to be married/having children. Also, I think it was very considerate of him to take her away in private because the Dothraki do not see sex in a shameful/sinful way they would not have blinked an eye if he pulled her off the horse and started right then and there. I think Dany appreciated being alone with him. It was good that he took it slowly because she is young, and she was crying. It could be possible that he has seen the way Viserys acts and takes pity on Dany. Just because he can't communicate effectively or understand what they are saying he does have eyes and he can probably see things no one else would notice. He has to rely on observations.
Carol wrote: "Oh, wow! Jon as Lyanna's secret baby by Rhaegar? That would be a cool twist. I never thought of that. lol The timeline is about right, it's been almost 14 years since Robert killed Rhaegar, right? ..."Hmm... now I don't know what to think! I'm not sure now if Jon is Ned's or not but then it still makes me wonder about Ashara. What's the deal with her existence having to be a secret at Winterfell??
Also, wouldn't Catelyn have mentioned something about Lyanna's funeral being around the time Jon was born. If Lyanna had a baby and her body came back to Winterfell I think there would have been more information on it. I understand Ned would have wanted others to believe that Jon was his but I don't see those two events adding up. It mentions he was gone for a year and came back with Jon and Jon's wetnurse who were moved in to Winterfell before Catelyn got there with Robb. Do we know anything about the time of Lyanna's death and Jon's birth? Possibly, the time of year? It's too much speculation right now.
Responding to Answers to Lisa Kay’s Questions for Bran(8) – Daenerys(11)@Sarah #1 & 2 - About how far into the book is the HBO series now? Or is it all finished? If not, will you finish the book b/f the series or vice versa?
#3 - I figured out Queen Cersel first; there was a little denial going there about the brother and had to re-read the line were he said "sister"; pushes my ick button.
#5 - Good points. He can do this from a place of "tough" love too.
#6 - "He is very good at observing people." True, Tyrion doesn't miss much, I think.
#8 & 9 - Yes, I think he not only wants money, but a title. I just can't get a fix on him yet; there could be more here. In many ways, he is the character I am most unsure of.
#10 - "...very considerate of him to take her away in private... OMG! I hadn't even considered that! But they did have public beddings back then.
Lisa Kay wrote: "Responding to Answers to Lisa Kay’s Questions for Bran(8) – Daenerys(11)@Sarah #1 & 2 - About how far into the book is the HBO series now? Or is it all finished? If not, will you finish the book..."
Umm I'm not exactly sure how far it is because I haven't been able to watch it for the last couple weeks. I'm not sure if I'll pass the show but what's interesting is the way we are breaking down the book follows the episodes of the show.
The whole incest thing pushes my ick button! haha
Is Magister Illyrio the one who was banished? If so then that is even more incentive for him to be on their good side.
The Dothraki especially would have wanted a public bedding. But I think Khal Drogo wants Dany to like him.
@ Sarah ~ "Is Magister Illyrio the one who was banished? If so then that is even more incentive for him to be on their good side."I think it was Mormont who was exiled and impoverished. He could only give her a stack of books for her bridal gift, which she really liked.
Sarah wrote: "Carol wrote: "Oh, wow! Jon as Lyanna's secret baby by Rhaegar? That would be a cool twist. I never thought of that. lol The timeline is about right, it's been almost 14 years since Robert killed Rh..."We don't have any other information which is a bit frustrating, in a good way. It's a mystery.
We know the following:
1. Lyanna died in the mountains of Dorne
2. Eddard was with her when she died and brought her home to the Stark crypt.
3. She died of a fever (quite common after childbirth in those days)
4. Dorne is very far south (was she fleeing in shame? Did Eddard search for and find her only to watch her die?)
5. Jon was born shortly before Robert killed Rhaegar. (did Eddard only tell Robert of the rape and not the birth of a son to Lyanna in order to protect her child?)
6. Eddard claims Jon as his own and brings him home to be raised with his trueborn children even though it goes against all customs of the time
7. Jon looks like Eddard, but it could just be because Eddard is his uncle
Rhaegar could've raped Lyanna, she flees south, Eddard and Robert find out and search for her (the rape being the catalyst for the war), Eddard finds her in Dorne dying of a fever, brings her body home and a child claiming to be his (he has been gone a long enough time), he and Robert go kill the Targaryens, Eddard goes home, Catelyn comes to Winterfell with Robb to find Jon and his wet nurse there. The whole Ashara Dayne story could be a smokescreen. She lives in Starfall, way, way south in Dorne. When Catelyn asks about Ashara:
"That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. 'Never ask me about Jon,' he said, cold as ice. 'He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady.' She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne's name was never heard in Winterfell again."
Interesting that he said "He is my blood." A common saying back then, but why not, "He is my son." instead? I find this all very interesting!
Lisarenee, just noticed that we don't have volunteers for the questions. I can do some. Just let me know which day :)
Carol, now that you point out what Eddard/Ned could have said, I'm also getting suspicious. The question is whether Lyanna's rape is well known of? If it is, then why hide the consequence, i.e Jon? Or am I missing something here?
Vi wrote: "Carol, now that you point out what Eddard/Ned could have said, I'm also getting suspicious. The question is whether Lyanna's rape is well known of? If it is, then why hide the consequence, i.e Jon?..."For this to work as it is so far, Robert and Eddard appear to be the only ones to know of the rape, but Eddard seems to be the only to know of Jon. Of course, this could all be wild speculation on our parts. Alright, who was the troublemaker that got this thing started anyway? LOL
Vi, Can you do Tuesday? Sarah, Did you post questions for today? I'm looking to post today's questions in first post with the others.
Moved the questions higher in first post so all can find them easier.
I haven't posted questions yet! Sorry it's been a hectic morning! I'm going to do it ASAP!
Questions for Chapter Eddard (12) through Chapter Sansa (15)1. We've had a lot of speculation about Jon's parentage. Robert was with Ned the year he was away and mentions Wylla - Jon's mother. What do you think of this new development? If Wylla is Jon's mother then who was Ashara to Ned? Could it be that he had more than one affair?
2. We finally find out that Rhaegar did rape Lyanna. Does this change anything for you?
3. Ned advises Robert that "no one man should hold both the East and West". Do you think this could be foreshadowing something? Or is it just advice?
4. Does it surprise you to find out how Jaime Lannister got his nickname of Kingslayer? Also, what about Ned finding Jaime sitting on the Iron Throne?
5. What do you think about the young boys called "Rapers" being taken to the Wall? Does it shock you?
6. Does this sentence say anything important about the Lannisters? "The Lannisters took what was offered" (120). Think about it in reference to what Ned said about Jaime sitting on the throne. Does it change anything about Jaime Lannister?
7. What do you think of the bond between Jon and Tyrion?
8. Who do you think the man was, who was sent to Bran's room? Who do you think sent him? Why?
9. Many have shown dislike for Theon Grayjoy, how do you feel about him being allowed to hear what Catelyn has to say about the Lannisters?
10. Even after 15 years Catelyn does not consider herself to be a Stark. She tells Robb to stay at Winterfell because "there must always be a Stark at Winterfell" (137). Why do you think Catelyn chooses to exclude herself from being a Stark?
11. Is it significant that the "wilder" children look like Starks and the "tamer" children look like Tullys? Why?
12. What do you think about the fight between Arya and Joffrey? What kind of repercussions do you think will follow?
Answers to Sarah’s Questions for Chapter Eddard (12) through Chapter Sansa (15)1. We've had a lot of speculation about Jon's parentage. Robert was with Ned the year he was away and mentions Wylla - Jon's mother. What do you think of this new development? If Wylla is Jon's mother then who was Ashara to Ned? Could it be that he had more than one affair?
That totally threw me off. I don’t think there is a slightest possibility that Lady Ashara Dayne has a nickname of “Wylla”. So, now I’m thinking there may be some validity to Jon being Ned’s nephew and not his bastard son. I tried to figure out why he didn’t tell the King this, but then, maybe he fears the King would kill Jon in a fit of rage.
@Carol, I think the troublemakers are myself and Lisarenee, LOL. I brought up the “secret baby” theme, then questioned Theon’s paternity because he has a sister named Asha (too close to Ashara –I may pull my hair out over all these names – according to shelfari, there are 328 characters in this book). Then Lisarenee made the jump to questioning Jon Snow’s paternity.
2. We finally find out that Rhaegar did rape Lyanna. Does this change anything for you?
Nope. Was about 90% sure, this just confirms it.
3. Ned advises Robert that "no one man should hold both the East and West". Do you think this could be foreshadowing something? Or is it just advice?
I think it is forewarning. Plus, we have the added advantage of knowing Jaime Lannister is wicked.
4. Does it surprise you to find out how Jaime Lannister got his nickname of Kingslayer? Also, what about Ned finding Jaime sitting on the Iron Throne?
It was mentioned briefly earlier that he slew his own King; interesting to find out the specifics. Sitting on the Throne tells a lot! That is what JL covets!
5. What do you think about the young boys called "Rapers" being taken to the Wall? Does it shock you?
Yes, a bit. It really brought home what Jon Snow was getting into. The reality verses the ideal. Shocking!
6. Does this sentence say anything important about the Lannisters? "The Lannisters took what was offered" (120). Think about it in reference to what Ned said about Jaime sitting on the throne. Does it change anything about Jaime Lannister?
Opportunists. Such an interesting way to show us this. Am I the only one who sees a bit of “sense of entitlement” that comes with this action? That is the way I picture JL, and this cements it for me.
7. What do you think of the bond between Jon and Tyrion?
There is one forming there, but it is not blood and therefore not as strong in either’s mind/heart. Whether or not this bond gets stronger remains to be seen.
8. Who do you think the man was, who was sent to Bran's room? Who do you think sent him? Why?
I think he was an assassin sent by Jaime Lannister or Queen Cersei – or both.
9. Many have shown dislike for Theon Grayjoy, how do you feel about him being allowed to hear what Catelyn has to say about the Lannisters?
It did give me pause. I still haven’t made my mind about Theon Grayjoy, and maybe that says something. A lot of the characters Martin has created are not entirely good or entirely bad and to me Theon Grayjoy is the one that is the most 50/50 of them all. Will he use this info against the Starks or against the Lannisters? Or to his own advantage? Don’t know yet.
10. Even after 15 years Catelyn does not consider herself to be a Stark. She tells Robb to stay at Winterfell because "there must always be a Stark at Winterfell" (137). Why do you think Catelyn chooses to exclude herself from being a Stark?
She still sees herself as a Tully, still loves (prefers) her homeland. Some of this could also be attributed to the age she lives in and that she is aware that others still see her as a Tully. Reminds me of the old Irish saying: “A son is a son until he takes a wife, a daughter is a daughter all her life.”
11. Is it significant that the "wilder" children look like Starks and the "tamer" children look like Tullys? Why?
I was wondering about the significance of their looks myself, though I hadn’t thought of “wilder” and “tamer”. Interesting point. I don’t know. Could be the “wilder” ones will be more likely to survive in the stark wilderness that is Winterfall??
12. What do you think about the fight between Arya and Joffrey? What kind of repercussions do you think will follow?
Wow! Did that whole thing escalate out of hand, or what? Prince Joffrey started out the integrator and wound up the victim. I think his arm will have permanent damage, making it difficult for him to use that sword he is so fond of.
Unfortunately, I don’t think Sansa saw Joffrey as having any culpability in the upshot of it all; she’s living in a fantasy world, wearing “rose colored” glasses. I was wondering if she would intervene when Arya was backed up against the tree, but she stood by helplessly. I don’t think Joffrey will be any too happy that she heard him whimpering and asking for mercy. Of course, she did notice his loathing of her there at the end, so maybe there is a spark of hope.
Sansa may blame Arya totally for this. Plus, our tomboy, Arya, could be in big trouble; Joffrey will probably sic The Hound on her.
Hi lisarenee, the qns are to be posted on june 14, right? I can do then.
Yes, June 14 - Chapter 20(Eddard) - Chapter 23 (Daenrys).Thank you :)
Lisarenee's answers to Questions for Chapter Eddard (12) through Chapter Sansa (15)1. We've had a lot of speculation about Jon's parentage. Robert was with Ned the year he was away and mentions Wylla - Jon's mother. What do you think of this new development? If Wylla is Jon's mother then who was Ashara to Ned? Could it be that he had more than one affair?
I'm still wondering about parentage. Why would Wylla give up her son? Did she die? Does she actually exist? With the King saying he wants all of the Dragon's offspring dead could it be Ned is afraid to let him know that Jon is Lyssa & Rhaeger's? What would he do to him? We do after all now know Lyssa was raped.
2. We finally find out that Rhaegar did rape Lyanna. Does this change anything for you?
Sort of suspected that already, so no.
3. Ned advises Robert that "no one man should hold both the East and West". Do you think this could be foreshadowing something? Or is it just advice?
Maybe it's advice because it's too much for one person to reign over?
4. Does it surprise you to find out how Jaime Lannister got his nickname of Kingslayer? Also, what about Ned finding Jaime sitting on the Iron Throne?
Think he has plans to rule by his sister's side. Wonder who Joeffrey's father really is?
5. What do you think about the young boys called "Rapers" being taken to the Wall? Does it shock you?
Shock no. I'm guessing it's seen as a form of punishment. Wonder why Benjen became a wall guard?
6. Does this sentence say anything important about the Lannisters? "The Lannisters took what was offered" (120). Think about it in reference to what Ned said about Jaime sitting on the throne. Does it change anything about Jaime Lannister?
Not sure.
7. What do you think of the bond between Jon and Tyrion?
Not sure there is a bond yet.
8. Who do you think the man was, who was sent to Bran's room? Who do you think sent him? Why?
I think the queen or her brother sent him to finish what they started - Kill Bran.
9. Many have shown dislike for Theon Grayjoy, how do you feel about him being allowed to hear what Catelyn has to say about the Lannisters?
Don't think we know enough about him yet.
10. Even after 15 years Catelyn does not consider herself to be a Stark. She tells Robb to stay at Winterfell because "there must always be a Stark at Winterfell" (137). Why do you think Catelyn chooses to exclude herself from being a Stark?
I think because she's not a male. Think of olden times when woman didn't have much status.
11. Is it significant that the "wilder" children look like Starks and the "tamer" children look like Tullys? Why?
Hmmmmm..... Didn't notice that.
12. What do you think about the fight between Arya and Joffrey? What kind of repercussions do you think will follow?
I think the betrothal will end between Joffrey and Sansa.
Power was out for 8 hrs, so I'll post tomorrow. Now that the house is cooling down again (thank the goddess for A/C) I'm heading to bed.
Lisa Kay wrote: "Lisa Kay’s Answers to Lisarenee's Questions for Chapters 4(Eddard) - 7(Arya)2. Knowing how close the King and Ned were, do you think Catelyn was right to encourage her husband to become the King's Hand?
I don’t know. I don’t have a clear feel for Catelyn yet. I see her reasoning. I don’t doubt she loves her husband, her family; however, I don’t like her dislike of her husband’s bastard. I want her to rise above that."
I am totally with you on that one Lisa Kay, she seems quite strong but her dislike for his husbands bastard seems to be beyond personality and I actually like Jon so probably that is effecting my view of her as well.
Sorry I am trying to catching up, actually when I am hooked it is not possible for me to stop reading following the chapters and I am actually hooked but had an extremely busy weekend and couldn't spare much for reading this, I am following from the audiobook as I spent a huge amount of time on the road everyday. anyway now I will try to answer some of the questions. They are pretty good and actually causing me to notice and think the points I missed while reading or listening... And also I found out I am not used to answering those kind of questions when reading a book :) new experience...
1) Before you found out what happened, were you apprehensive about Bran climbing all over Winterfall, especially when you discovered he was crawling the outer walls fraught with loose mortar? Did his direwolf cub’s growl cause you to have a sense of impending doom?
Not really, I think I was too busy about thinking what was to happen and what Bran was witnessing. I think, I should follow more carefully :)
2) Did it take you long to figure out who the man and woman were whom Bran overheard? Did you surmise both their identities at the same time, or just one?
No, I immediately knew who they were, once I read the start of the scene, can't really believe all the incest going on... And wondered when Bran would figure who they were.
We don't have the show here, wish we did...
3) We learn from their dialogue that these two wished the King ill; did you think eavesdropping was an effective way to learn this? “That frighten cow shared Jon Arryn’s bed.” What do you deduce from this statement?
I believe eavesdropping was pretty effective and in that kind of story it can be really helpful to gain information if done correctly. And for the frighten cow, Lysa might now things Jon shared with her in intimate moments, however I am not really sure about her role yet.
4) Since Bran is a POV character in this story, it would be surprising if he died so early in the story; therefore, what condition do you think he will be in after the push? (Any comments about the push?)
I don't think he will die as he didn't die immediately and now seemed stable and there must be a reason for him to see the Queen and her brother other than letting us know their thoughts and incest relationship, I don't think he will be in a good shape for a long time though but seems like his direwolf is effective on his situation.
While reading Bran's doom, I never expected him to be pushed and felt bad and I could get my hands on Jaime myself so hope Ned gave his best on him.
5) Were you surprised Tyrion slapped Prince Joffrey not once, but twice? What do you think his reasons were for emphatically insisting Prince Joffrey put aside his contemptuous attitude and seek out Lord and Lady Stark?
I was surprised, but Tyrion seems the only reasonable and honest (at least partially) sibling in three of them and hope he can effect how Prince be a better man at least a little bit but looks like a pretty damn difficult job as he seems to be the only one to discipline him.
6) How much do you think Tyrion knows about the secrets of Queen Cersei and her twin, Ser Jaime, the Kingslayer?
I think he knows more than the story shows us until now. He seems like a character easily be underestimated.
7) How did you feel about Jon Snow defying Catelyn in order to say good-bye to Bran? Why do you think she told him about her prayers?
I am really starting to like Jon, even though he is jealous of his brothers or with all the bitter mood, he cares for his siblings. And I couldn't believe how Catelyn could be so cruel to him even when he was also feeling sad for his brother as well as leaving them behind.
8) Forget Viserus’ brooding boorishness at the wedding; to me, Magister Illyrio seems overly invested in Daenerys’ behavior. Are his reasons of a pedantic, prurient, or purely solicitous nature?
He is a self-serving man so he sees Daenery an investment. He wants to look good and not effected bad by his investment.
9) Are the three dragon eggs gifted to Dany by Magister Illyrio still viable? If so, does he know this? Are his actions and gift-giving consistent with his moral nature and personality?
Seems like a tactical move to me. He is selling Daenery so he needs to look good while doing that with proper dowry. Are they really stone and no Dragons in them?
10) Looks like Khal Drago can only communicate to Daenerys with one word, but he uses it effectively, no? Comments.
No... :) He seems to be a decent husband and even a caring one. I think it might be interesting for Daenery's development if she is not constantly afraid of somethings.
Lisarenee wrote:Yes, but...
1. Eddard/Ned doesn't seem the type to cheat. seems to think less of the King. Didn't sound all that interested in indulging in other woman. Course that just could be me reading too much in between the lines.
2. The last of the direwolves was white and seperate from the others. Could he just represent the offspring of another person (Lyanna) with a blood claim to the direwolf symbol?
There must be something about the last of the direwolves being different and also Jon finding him in the last minute. Though I don't know if it shows the offspring of another person (Lyanna), I also agree Ned doesn't seem a cheating type, he is far too caring for that even for the medieval times, and he doesn't talk about Jon's mother at all and never let anyone to talk about her, even the king. But then he also shows guilt over the issue. Is it only because of Lynna being raped or because even for once he slipped and cheated, I can never be sure just yet :)
No Problem at all. Feel free to assign questions later on as well :). Thanks for hosting. It's been a fun session so far. Thanks everyone for making the reading fun :)Lisarenee wrote: "Yes, June 14 - Chapter 20(Eddard) - Chapter 23 (Daenrys).
Thank you :)"
Tugce Nida, I agree. I can't decide if he cheated or not, but I keep wanting the twist so I'll stand by it. I'm probably totally wrong, but I love twists so I'm hopeful. lol
Questions for Chapter 16 (Eddard) - Chapter 19 (Jon)1. Gah! They killed Lady and then Micah. I thought Micah would get off with just punishment not death. Did anyone see that coming? Wonder where Nymeria is? I love how the wolves are so smart.
2. Thoughts on Bran's dreams before he woke up? Do you think he'll remember everything? Do you think it was a dream or will he now see things? Could he have the same powers as Varys whom Catelyn referred to as a spider?
3. Do you think the Lannisters went to the wall so they could keep an eye on Bran's situation without being obvious? Why did they go to the wall in the first place?
4. After hearing about the Dagger being Tyrion's do you suspect he's more involved with his siblings plans then you may have previously thought?
5. Do you think Catelyn was wise to leave home?
6. So what are your thoughts on the mantra "Winter is coming"? What do you think it means? Could it be another way of saying be prepared?
7. Do you think it was a mistake for Jon to come to the Wall?
8. Initial thoughts of Donal Noye and the advice and the information he gave Jon?
9. Jon made an enemy. That cannot be good. Any thoughts on what Ser Alliser will do?
10. Do you think Tyrion is a "nice" guy or is he hoping to turn Jon against his family?
11. Bran named his wolf Summer. Does this mean he'll have something to do with them getting through whatever terrible events are coming?
Okay, first post got too big so I over wrote my second post and put chapter divisions and participants and schedule of who does questions there. Does it look okay?
Lisarenee wrote: "Tugce Nida, I agree. I can't decide if he cheated or not, but I keep wanting the twist so I'll stand by it. I'm probably totally wrong, but I love twists so I'm hopeful. lol"Lisarenee, I am so in with on that twist not that I'd feel bad about him cheating on Catelin cos I won't :)
Lisarenee's answers to Questions for Chapter Eddard (12) through Chapter Sansa (15)@Lisarenee - #1 & #2 Yes, all those questions are great ones, if Wylla exists. Just to through this out there - what if Lyanna wasn't raped, but was in love with Rhaeger? I keep thinking of her saying to Ned, "Promise me." Now what could that mean? It is King Robert who keeps saying she was raped, not Ned.
#4 - Yes! Who is Prince Joeffrey's father?
#5 - Good questions about Jon's Uncle Benjen.
#6 - Theon is such an interesting character to me. I hate that he was kicking that severed head at the beginning of the book, and he is so arrogant, yet he steps in occassionally to prevent disaster - like with Robb.
#12 - I can only hope so, though I don't think Sansa will.
Tugce Nida's answers to Lisa Kay’s Questions for Bran(8) – Daenerys(11) @Tugce Nida - #3 Good point; what is Lysa's role? If it is warning her sister, is it finished?
#4 - I must admit to a bit of naïveté with regards to Bran being pushed - I worried when Jaimie Lannister first reached for him, but then I let my guard down when he helped him initially - and that is when he was pushed. I wouldn't be any good at the Game of Thrones.
#5 & #6 - Ditto!
#7 - I am really starting to like Jon Snow also!
#9 - Ahhh...someone else who wonders about the viability of the dragon eggs.
#10 - Yes. :)
To me, the strongest argument that Jon Snow is Ned's nephew and not his bastard, is that I don't think Ned cheated.
Lisarenee wrote: "Okay, first post got too big so I over wrote my second post and put chapter divisions and participants and schedule of who does questions there. Does it look okay?"Looks good, Lisarenee. But, I still think you will run out of space for all our questions. I'm willing to use my first post, if needed later.
Lisa Kay’s Answers to Lisarenee’s Questions for Chapter 16 (Eddard) - Chapter 19 (Jon)1. Gah! They killed Lady and then Micah. I thought Micah would get off with just punishment not death. Did anyone see that coming? Wonder where Nymeria is? I love how the wolves are so smart.
I know! I didn’t see Lady’s execution coming at all, though I admire Lord Stark for doing it humanely himself. I was pretty upset by this and wondering if I wanted to continue with this book; I love animals so much. Not that I didn’t think Micah’s death wasn’t a tragedy; when he was dumped like that, it was another blow to my numb heart. Needless to say, now I loathe Prince Joffrey and his Queen B!tch of a mother.
I hope Nymeria is safely hidden.
2. Thoughts on Bran's dreams before he woke up? Do you think he'll remember everything? Do you think it was a dream or will he now see things? Could he have the same powers as Varys whom Catelyn referred to as a spider?
I think it was a world in-between the real world and the underworld. I think he will remember everything. I believe he will be able to see things, manifested by the pecking of a third eye he thought the bird gave him. Like Varys? Humm… could be.
3. Do you think the Lannisters went to the wall so they could keep an eye on Bran's situation without being obvious? Why did they go to the wall in the first place?
Do you mean Tyrion going to the wall? I don’t know. Good question.
4. After hearing about the Dagger being Tyrion's do you suspect he's more involved with his siblings plans then you may have previously thought?
It did make me question it, but I think Tyrion is being framed. However, maybe it is just me being naïve again.
5. Do you think Catelyn was wise to leave home?
Very good question! I have been wondering why she chose to do this. I don’t think it was her smartest move. What if she is captured and used as leverage against Lord Stark?
6. So what are your thoughts on the mantra "Winter is coming"? What do you think it means? Could it be another way of saying be prepared?
Yes, I think it means “be prepared” – but, it also means death is coming, darkness, and the harsh cold reality of life.
7. Do you think it was a mistake for Jon to come to the Wall?
Man-oh-man! I really want him out of there. I feel trapped and isolated there with him. Yet, I also wonder if he will grow strong enough to conquer any threat on the other side of the wall and thus “be prepared” to save the day.
8. Initial thoughts of Donal Noye and the advice and the information he gave Jon?
Pretty brutal. There was a part of me that didn’t like/agree the advice; I was suspicious. Yet, in his way he was trying to tell Jon how to get along with outlaws who would as likely slit his throat.
9. Jon made an enemy. That cannot be good. Any thoughts on what Ser Alliser will do?
The naïve part of me couldn’t believe that Ser Alliser didn’t have a sense of humor. It doesn’t bode well; I see a confrontation or repercussions down the road.
10. Do you think Tyrion is a "nice" guy or is he hoping to turn Jon against his family?
I think Tyrion is basically a good guy, but I don’t think Martin writes his characters all good or all bad. Initially, I wanted to say I didn’t think Tyrion was trying to sway Jon… but then I remember what he said about taking things that were offered…
11. Bran named his wolf Summer. Does this mean he'll have something to do with them getting through whatever terrible events are coming?
Ahhh… I hadn’t thought of that! I was just thinking it was the opposite of Winter. However, it might well reflect an ambience that could prevail toward his whole family. Oh, now that I write this, I think: Yes! He could be the “balance” that is needed to see them through. Thanks for making me come to this conclusion! :)
I have a question: If this is liken to a game of chess (or whatever), does Lady’s removal – and any power she possessed gone with her – make Sansa an ineffective player in the game now?
Lisa Kay wrote: "I have a question: If this is liken to a game of chess (or whatever), does Lady’s removal – and any power she possessed gone with her – make Sansa an ineffective player in the game now?"Interesting question since the Stark's power seems to be attached to a wolf. You might not get your answer in this book.
Nothing But Reading Challenges
Books mentioned in this topic
A Time to Kill (other topics)Halfway to the Grave (other topics)
A Clash of Kings (other topics)
River Marked (other topics)
A Game of Thrones (other topics)
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Yes, but...
1. Eddard/Ned doesn't seem the type to cheat. seems to think less of the King. Didn't sound all that interested in indulging in other woman. Course that just could be me reading too much in between the lines.
2. The last of the direwolves was white and seperate from the others. Could he just represent the offspring of another person (Lyanna) with a blood claim to the direwolf symbol?