The Sword and Laser discussion
How to select the January Laser pick
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Jenny (Reading Envy)
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Nov 18, 2012 11:57AM
I'd love any of what Tina said, but those weren't our options! :)
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I've read a fair amount of PKD in another book club. Based on what I've read, I recommend Ubik or Martian Time-Slip. Both have broad appeal and should engender a lot of discussion, especially Ubik.
Jenny wrote: "I'd love any of what Tina said, but those weren't our options! :)"yes, i guess i kindof took off in another direction. sorry.
Not that I count, since you know, I'm new and all, but I vote for PKD. He is always fun and I would love to hear what everyone has to say about him.
Since Old Man's War is so popular why not pick it for January, and then it can never be mentioned again. :D Then have PKD for March. As I've always wanted an excuse to read some Dick. ;)
Since we're just throwing out sci fi we'd like to read; Ethan of Athos is one I'd like to discuss. It's not properly part of the Vorkosigan Saga, but more of a spin off novel, and it has some interesting ideas, and great action.
How about a classic? Downbelow Station by C.J. Cherryh .(And labeling it a "classic" makes me feel really old -- I remember reading the review of it in Dragon magazine back in the day, unless it was a review of one of her other books.)
Daran wrote: "Since we're just throwing out sci fi we'd like to read; Ethan of Athos is one I'd like to discuss. It's not properly part of the Vorkosigan Saga, but more of a spin off novel, and it has some inte..."Ooh, I like the cut of your jib, there Daran!
I want us to read Old Man's War just so we can be done with it.But I also endorse PKD, The Man in the High Castle?
I'm fine with Old Man's War or PKD. If we do PKD I think we should read something other than Androids.
At this point I would think that a lot of us have already gone ahead and read OMW and we have already read Scalzi. Gibson we have already read, and in my opinion, once you have read Stephenson Gibson get's taken down a notch in the hierarchy. PKD would be good.I would also suggest some space opera like; Iain M, Banks, Alistair Reynolds or Peter F. Hamilton.
Bujold isn't a bad idea. I wouldn't know where to start.
Mod
What constitutes "a lot"? We are closing in on 14k members now. There has been a large influx of new members (myself included) due to the new youTube/Geek & Sundry exposure over the last 6 months.
I think it's really hard to generalize what everyone has read at this point. The group is just too large.
Of course it's been my experience since I've joined, that only a handful of people post on a daily (or even weekly basis) and the vast majority of the 14k people don't seem to post at all. It's hard to say how many people are trying to read along every (most) months.
Personally I haven't read OMW (and own it thanks to the Humble eBook Bundle), or ANY Scalzi for that matter, so that's why I "voted" for that.
I wasn't around when picks were voted on, but with the size of the group it's going to be impossible to pick something everyone will be happy with/hasn't read.
In some ways, I think Tom & Veronica doing the picks has simplified things because you're going to end up a wide variety of opinions on the matter.
Personally, I'll be fine with whatever is decided though. I'm going to read OMW if it's a pick or not, since I own it now.
I've tried some books/authors since joining this summer I would never have read, and added a bunch of other to my ever growing "to-be-read" list.
I can think of only one fair and democratic way of deciding this: paper airplane duels.First, write out the potential candidates, each on their own piece of paper.
In the interest of democracy, take the papers and shuffle them face down, then begin folding.
When all of the papers have been airplane-ified commence with dueling. Now, this could be anything from the basic, "which plane goes furthest," to the more complex, "which plane hit the intern most decisively when thrown from an ambush," to the elegant, "which plane made it into the dragon's mouth most often." Whatever you prefer and is most pleasing to the Empress.
After that, simply unfold the winning plane, decide that you don't like the result, pick a different victory condition, and try again. Repeat as necessary until you've found the winner.
Oh, and you can give us plebeians an address to mail our entries to, or accept one per person to feedback at swordandlaser.com or something.
There is a poll option... I think Tom just wanted to hear from the vocal ones. Guilty!
Rob wrote: "AndrewP wrote: "At this point I would think that a lot of us have already gone ahead and read OMW"What constitutes "a lot"? We are closing in on 14k members now. There has been a large influx of ..."
Poiint taken but Scalzi's wellknown in SF circles and OMW is well-known as a good book of his. It's been out in paper for years. Honestly, if someone is interested in reading OMW and hasn't by now, they're not really all that interested in it.
Too, I don't think it would be good discussion fodder. Love me some Scalzi as I like the snarky humor and have read and liked all his fiction.. but OMW's main ideas are riffs on concepts done before. Don't get me wrong - he does them well. But the idea of rejuvenation and how he does it in OMW isn't new. Brain augmentation isn't new. etc etc. What makes OMW a good book is that it's easy to fall into, it's a good story with good characters. I do recommend people read it - but I wonder what we'd talk about here.
As I said above, I'd like picks to be books that are more of a discovery for people and that stimulate discussion. Books that are standards in a genre or by very well known authors in the genre are easy. That can be fine, but look at most of the last few picks... Leviathan's Wake was all over the SF 'net. The Hobbit and Foundation are classics and it's hard to consider oneself well-read in SFF and not to have read them. Cloud Atlas... major movie tie-in.
Let's do a little more digging and do things that aren't as well-known but are still awesome. Not necessarily new authors, but people wil Walter Jon Williams, Jon Courtenay Grimwood even PKD whose books aren't all that well read given how well known the movies based on them are.
Mod
That's a very "elitist" view for lack of a better word. I've always read a fair bit on and off my whole life, but never actively went looking for books or joined any sort of book community like this till hearing about Sword and Laser.
I've read a few hundred books, most of which are sci-fi or fantasy. That's not as much as many people around here, but it's not nothing.
I had no idea what goodreads was before this year. I had no idea this group existed either. I really wish I had. I love it here.
The first time I heard of John Scalzi was indirectly when Red Shirts came out. I knew the book title though, not the author. I didn't hear about OMW until a few months ago.
I would guess that there are others in the newly joined group who might fall into a similar category.
I'm not trying to make the case that we should read OMW.
I just get really defensive when people make posts with broad statements like that where "Everyone's read it" or "If they haven't read it by now, they aren't interested".
That's simply not true for me, and I'm just one of 14,000.
Not to pull Jenny into this (sorry Jenny!) but she's reading The Hobbit for the first time.
I would have never guessed that given how many books she's read, so I don't think it's fair for anyone to presume anything for the rest of the group.
Rob wrote: "Rick wrote: "Honestly, if someone is interested in reading OMW and hasn't by now, they're not really all that interested in it."That's a very "elitist" view for lack of a better word. I've always..."
Jenny's never read The Hobbit!!!
I'm going to have to do that look of disbelief I get when I find someone who never seen a Bond movie.
'What you've never seen a Bond movie, there's like 50 of them!!!'
Have to agree with Rick though its impossible for everyone to have read every book ever written even if they are popular in the genre, I know I've been trying for years ;)
Didn't we try reading S. Lem and that's where Ms. Veronica coined the term "lemming a book?" Lem's Fiasco is a great read in my mind. Solaris by Lem is great for people being introduced to his writing. For PKD, Flow My Tears, the Policeman Said and Ubik are great. Man in a High Castle is also a very good choice, but it's not my personal favorite. If you've seen the movie Bladerunner, reading Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? is a fascinating comparison to the movie.
Speaking of people dropping out of spaceships and blowing things up, have we read Fireships or anything else by David Drake?
Aside from all that Old Man's War would be great. I haven't read it since it came out.
And I thought the point of these was to read a new book, so you got experience to a new author or book? (Hard to do for me, ha!)
Rob wrote: "Not to pull Jenny into this (sorry Jenny!) but she's reading The Hobbit for the first time.I would have never guessed that given how many books she's read, so I don't think it's fair for anyone to presume anything for the rest of the group. "
It's true. The thing is, I want to read ALL THE BOOKS. Having a book selected for me in a group I enjoy makes it more likely to move up the priority list. Just check out my to-read list for the over 1k titles that I know I want to read. I add to it almost every day. (I'm going to live forever!)
So let's not make any assumptions about anyone's reading, and just keep chattering away about these books we love. I'll cheer you on as well.
(By the way, I e-mailed my Dad the other day and demanded to know why The Hobbit wasn't included in my childhood, haha!)
Rob wrote: "Rick wrote: "Honestly, if someone is interested in reading OMW and hasn't by now, they're not really all that interested in it."That's a very "elitist" view for lack of a better word. I've always..."
Ah, the elitist putdown. Not sure how assuming that any semi-serious SF/Laser fan would have run across one of the most popular books by a popular SF author is elitist though.
Scalzi is president of SFWA, has a very popular blog, has been nominated for various Hugos and has won a couple in the last few years. I don't think it's elitist in any sense of the word to assume someone might have read him by now if they're into SF, especially when calls for OMW have been all over this group. I mean, people here have been beating the OMW drum for at least the last year so I think it's a bit disingenuous to say "I've been clamoring to read this" and not to have just picked up the book and read it by now.
Some of my reaction is based on the fact that the last 5 or 6 books have been basic reading in the genres or very popular and highly exposed. The one that wasn't, Assassin's Apprentice, was a nice change. I'd like the Laser equivalent of that, hence some of my suggestions above. To me, book groups aren't just to get someone to read just the popular stuff but to expose its members to new/cool stuff in the topic area, especially things that can serve as the basis for discussions.
Put as simply as I can, if people just want a list of good books to read the S&L Listopias for Laser and Sword are great.
Re Jenny - specific examples don't say anything about the group as a whole. I suppose it's down to the purpose of the group and that's a T&V thing. Do we want to cater to people who are new to the genre? New to Laser, but steeped in Sword (or vice versa)? Read classics of the genres? Give exposure to lesser known works in the genres? To new, promising authors? We're not going to satisfy everyone, but if we don't have any guiding principles behind the book selections then we might as well work down the Listopias. That wouldn't be optimal, but there are good books in each and we'd at least be somewhat sure that they choices are popular.
Mod
On the chance that I've read it already (like this month) I'll simply read something else, and wait for others to start discussing.
Or in the case of next month, I'll be re-reading the Hobbit for the 4th or 5th time as it's been awhile and I wanted to re-read it before the movie anyways.
I think it would be nice to mix up popular picks (maybe voted on by the group) with lesser known dictatorial picks so we get some of both.
That said, I think you're missing my point.
Rick wrote: "I don't think it's elitist in any sense of the word to assume someone might have read him by now if they're into SF, especially when calls for OMW have been all over this group. I mean, people here have been beating the OMW drum for at least the last year so I think it's a bit disingenuous to say "I've been clamoring to read this" and not to have just picked up the book and read it by now. "
I think you're once again making a lot of assumptions about the large number of people in this group.
Personally I've wanted to read Old Man's War for all of a few weeks when I got a copy of it with the Humble Ebook Bundle. I was considering reading it after the Hobbit, but since it was suggested for January, it seemed like a good idea to me.
The video show started in April. I didn't get around to joining the group/good reads until July. There was just over 12,000 people then. There are nearly 14,000 people now. So that's about 500 new people joining in a month.
You're assuming everyone of them is as well read/knowledgeable about Sci-Fi/Fantasy as you seem to be. I think that's a bad assumption on your part.
I suspect there are other people like myself that have joined to expose themselves to new stuff, whether it is already popular in the genre, or not. I don't care how popular something is so long as it's enjoyable.
I think people would be better served making their point about the merits of their suggestion rather than making assumptions about what other members of this group have (or ought to have) read something already.
What purpose is served by putting down other people's vote because "You've had plenty of time to read that already" or "This is popular".
I had my entire life to read Foundation. It's considered a classic. I didn't read it till September. Tom whose much better read in Sci-Fi hadn't read it either.
Maybe I'm arguing a point that no one else cares about though. I'm done discussing this as I'll just be repeating myself.
I haven't read anything that the group has read for about 9 months because I haven't been excited about the group picks (or Empress picks maybe). There are so many people saying, Old Man's War that I don't understand why we don't read it and get it out of the way. I read it last year when everyone was talking about it but I'd read it again. Ignoring the "voice" just tells me that the group really doesn't care about the voice.
I wish we would go back to voting on book choices again like we used to.
Some thoughts:1. I like it when Tom and Veronica make the choices. I belong to several book groups and haven't been doing the reading because it seems like the same books get chosen over and over again.
2. I like it when newer releases are chosen that most of us are unlikely to have read.
3. I really like it when we read books by authors that Tom and Veronica have interviewed/will interview.
3. In lieu of #2, I like it when we read a real classic. I didn't like The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, but I did appreciate the excuse to read it and discuss it.
That said, let's just read Old Man's War so we can put it behind us and not ever discuss reading it again.
Rob wrote: "What constitutes "a lot"? We are closing in on 14k members now. There has been a large influx of new members (myself included) due to the new youTube/Geek & Sundry exposure over the last 6 months."Point taken. Your right, there are a lot of new members who came here after the OMW fever reached it's peak and probably missed a lot of the discussion/ranting.
However, how many of the 14,000 actually read the book of the month? I tried to get a rough idea of that when I put out a poll after reading Tigana and Leviathan Wakes. Judging by the response, I would hazard a guess that no more that 10% read along. Then again, there might be a huge silent majority that never post, vote or anything else. Who can tell?
Just for the record OMW is a great book and I would probably give it a reread.
Mod
I think you will always have far more people who read on their own and listen/watch without participating in the discussion. That's true the internet over. And some people only feel inspired to read after the discussion goes on. I know that I have gone back and read discussion from books I've finally had time to read (still plan to for the Hyperion books and the other two Wolfe books). I'm still laughing at Tom suggesting Lem. What's left, Solaris? Oh. I would read that, actually. I look forward to the day where we can lem a lem. :P
Tamahome wrote: "Bujold isn't a bad idea. I wouldn't know where to start."Start at the beginning with Cordelia's Honor.
Ed wrote: "Tamahome wrote: "Bujold isn't a bad idea. I wouldn't know where to start."Start at the beginning with Cordelia's Honor."
Hmmm, there's more ratings for The Curse of Chalion.
But Chalion is a pure sword book and we're looking for a laser. It's an excellent book though one of my favorites.
I'd have to also say even though you've reviewed another William Gibson book, you gotta do Burning Chrome. Reading Neuromancer has been made that little bit more awesome for me, by knowing who Bobby Quine is beforehand.Do Old Man's War in February. Burning Chrome demands your attention first.
Rob wrote: "For what it's worth, I joined in reading along in August after your poll. I agree though that it's hard to tell how many people are actively participating."I actually didn't really join the group until last month and that was because of Geek and Sundry, so I missed this poll as well.
Honestly I haven't heard of OMW until this thread. I'm not a BIG SF reader. I decided to start participating in S&L because I don't read a lot of SF.
I don't really care what we read, because odds are, I haven't read it. Maybe a poll should just be set up.
Tamahome wrote: "Ed wrote: "Start at the beginning with Cordelia's Honor."Hmmm, there's more ratings for The Curse of Chalion."
I'm not sure I recommend selecting books based on popularity, but Cordelia's Honor is an omnibus edition of the first two Vorkosigan Saga novels, so you really need to add the average number of ratings for the individual books to the number of ratings for the omnibus edition to make a direct comparison. I think you'll see Cordelia's Honor actually handily outnumbers The Curse of Chalion in the number of ratings.
Besides Bujold is more well known for her Vorkosigan books than her fantasy, and they have proven to be very influential. She won two Hugo Awards and was nominated for two other Hugo Awards all for books in the Vorkosigan Saga. She also received two Locus Awards for books in the Vorkosigan Saga.
Winter Market, one of the stories in Burning Chrome, hooked me on William Gibson and contributed to me going to college in Vancouver. Still, some of the other stories in there are not great, despite my love for both short stories and Gibson. I'd vote for Man In the High Castle. Maybe I should read Burning Chrome again. To be sure.
I'm with Joseph. Old Man's War in January, and PKD in March
Jeff wrote: "I'm with Joseph. Old Man's War in January, and PKD in March"I'm with you, if you're implying that we do Burning Chrome in February.
As for Dick in March, I propose we read The Man in the High Castle. It sounds pretty awesome, and it's the only PKD book I actually own.
EDIT: I just thought of another book we could do. Stand on Zanzibar by John Brunner.
I think it's time for OMW. But if not then I like the idea of reading Snow Crash. It is on my list to read anyway but all these good S&L book picks keep getting in my way. PKD would work too.
Iain Banks ...Rudy Rucker ...
Richard K. Morgan (aside from his Takeshi Kovacs cyberpunk books he has an excellent 'sword' series now, so could swing either way!)
Mod
Old Man's War isn't hard sci-fi. It is a fun enjoyable read.
I'm all for OMW... I'd put Peter F. Hamilton into the mix too.
If we do a PKD, I really hope we do something other than Blade Runner. I would even like to see Old Man's War win over Blade Runner.
Louise wrote: "Tassie Dave wrote: "Louise wrote: "I've never heard of Old Man's War or Burning Chrome, so I'm happy to read either (even if they do look too much like hard sci-fi for my liking ;) "Old Man's War..."
Yea, Old Man's War is space opera pretending to be military sci-fi. It's emphasis is more on the fun and the story, rather than the science and the ideas as with hard sci-fi (though there's some of that too).
It's competently written and there are some brilliant passages, but also some things that really didn't work for me. All in all it's worth a read IMO.
Let's be brave! Let's start 2013 with a 2013 published book, to limit the number of people who have read it.Jan 1 sees...
Great North Road By Peter F. Hamilton
Actually, I've seen this on the shelves already in Melbourne. It seems to be the eBook with the 1st Jan publishing date, but still!
Feel like throwing in a tangential suggestion. Slan A classic golden age Sci Fi book. Which should be on every Sci Fiers must read list.
PKD or Lem sound like better choices than more Scalzi to me.
Rob wrote: I think you're once again making a lot of assumptions about the large number of people in this group.Personally I've wanted to read Old Man's War for all of a few weeks when I got a copy of it with the Humble Ebook Bundle. I was considering reading it after the Hobbit, but since it was suggested for January, it seemed like a good idea to me.
"
No, Rob, I'm not. What you missed above is that the group has been asking for OMW for a long time. It's at the top of the list. It's kind of a running gag here, in fact. What I wrote was that "I mean, people here have been beating the OMW drum for at least the last year so I think it's a bit disingenuous to say "I've been clamoring to read this" and not to have just picked up the book and read it by now. "
Stop. You're about to tell me what I mean again. Re-read that. My point is not that people new to the group or SF should have read OMW but that those people who have been talking about it for a long time could easily have read it by now.
I like OMW but we've recently read Scalzi and he's not an author who really needs the exposure... the man gets 50,000 vistors to his blog daily and is increasingly acclaimed. On the other hand, I kind of want the group to read it so we'll get over the fixation on the book and look at other things.
As to the group composition, I'm well aware of the growth. I'm fairly new myself, having joined about a year ago. However, let's not assume that all or most of the new people are in fact new to SFF. Some are. Some aren't. Some are experienced in SF but not fantasy or vice versa. Just as I can't assume the group looks like me, neither can you assume the group is like you. It's like both of us... and more.
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Books mentioned in this topic
Against a Dark Background (other topics)Wizard and Glass (other topics)
Dune (other topics)
Legion (other topics)
Assassin's Apprentice (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
C.J. Cherryh (other topics)Lois McMaster Bujold (other topics)
Philip K. Dick (other topics)
Stanisław Lem (other topics)
