Anna David's Blog, page 9

Sanity in the Time of Social Media

 

Social media sucks.

It's also wonderful.

And it's my opinion that you need it if you're going to build your authority around a book.

This episode breaks down why I think it's important and how you can do it without going crazy...in fact, how you can use material in your book for your posts, and build your entire online authority in just few hours a week.

This is another episode based on the book I'm writing. Speaking of, if you want exclusive stories, resources and info about this book as I write it, you can sign up for that on annadbook.com.

RELATED EPISODES:  

The Business of Being a Writer with Jane Friedman

Turning Online Readers Into Book Readers with Zara Barrie and Dayna Troisi

Writing a Book in Public with Jesse J. Anderson

TRANSCRIPT:

Hello there, welcome to the podcast. My name is Anna David, if you're new to the show. I'm so so glad you're here, and I am here to help you launch a book that will help build your authority. Now today, it's another solo episode based on the book that I'm currently writing. Get more info about that by going to www.annadbook.com. This episode is about making social media work for you without going insane. Otherwise known as making social media work for you, rather than you working for it.

Now, I will tell you, I wrote my first book before social media existed. I know, isn’t that crazy? I remember meeting, HarperCollins had already bought the book and I went, and I met with the publicity department there. I sat down in this guy's office, and he said, I know this sounds crazy, but I want you to join Facebook. And I go, that thing for college kids, you want me to join it for my book? And they said, I know, that's crazy, but I want you to do it. I'm not even kidding.

So, at this point, you know, as I'm recording this, BookTok is, you know, probably in 2022 was responsible for more book sales than any other thing, platform, publication, certainly more than the New York Times. It's not terribly relevant for people that write nonfiction. It's far more relevant if you're Colleen Hoover, a romance novelist. However, you know, I had Shelley oh my God, why am I blanking on that TikTok? Oh, Shelby Leigh, lovely girl. Had her on the podcast tell you about TikTok, and she writes nonfiction, and she writes poetry, and she has a huge following. So, it's not entirely useless. It's just not, it's not where I personally have found a lot of success finding my audience. That being said, I haven't tried very hard.

But even Jane Friedman, who, if you know who she is, I think we can agree, a pretty serious person as probably the reigning expert on publishing today. Even she says, I think you make your life increasingly difficult if you don't do any social media whatsoever. She says she knows people, so it's possible, but that you're making your life extremely difficult.

You know, if obviously, it's traumatic for you to use social media, then not triggering your trauma is more important than any authority building. But it's really hard. The point of social media, as far as I see it, is to change your attitude. And I've talked about this before, but rather than going the endless scroll and comparing to spare, and I want to be on that yacht, or whatever, we've all got our versions of it. I try to look at it as an incredible opportunity to have my own TV show, my own radio station, this, this is my own radio station.

I get to do whatever I want on this podcast; I have no asshole boss telling me that I'm doing it wrong, getting on my case about the lack of downloads or reviews, or whatever it is, I get to do whatever I want, I get to share, I get to talk to you, and that's a privilege, and pretty special. So that is true of every single thing you post or every single thing you get out you put out there.

Rather than looking at it as a burden, look at it as an opportunity. When else in society have we had the opportunity to, you know, I came up as a magazine writer, we would have to pitch and pitch and pitch to get a magazine to agree to publish our work. And then once they did, they would often change it entirely, so it was completely unrecognizable as our work.

Now we get to do whatever we want. So previous podcast guest Rob Fitzpatrick has a system that he told me about. Now, he's not like a big social media guy, but he said whenever somebody asked him a question, instead of answering through email, he'd record a five-minute video answer and post it on YouTube. So, people are constantly being reminded of his thought he's not doing any extra work. He's just answering questions that are coming his way. I have tried to do that a little bit. I forget. Instead, I just go ahead and answer the question. But if one person in your audience has that question, I guarantee other people do.

Here's the other thing we've talked about this, you guys, people say, I'm not that comfortable putting myself out there. Now, if you have a message to share, if you have gone through something, or you have experienced finding success in something, and you're not sharing that, because you're thinking about yourself too much, and you're feeling uncomfortable, and you're doing a disservice. People are not just going to find your book. Put it out there.

And can I tell you a secret? This book that I'm talking to you about right now, I have been using it as content for months and months and months. I basically have the book I'm writing, then I save a new version of it. As for social media, and I post different sections. When I post a section from it, I highlight that, so I don't go back.

What I'm doing right now I'm recording, I took this book, and I divided different sections into it. And I pasted the text onto a page, which I'm not reading from because I don't read, you know, read these episodes, but I have my notes. And I'm not worrying that you're going to not want to read my book, because I'm telling you about it now. I'm not worried that you're going to email me and go, Anna, Jesus Christ, I, you said that on the, and now I read it in the, no, first of all, I don't know about you, but I don't even remember what I read last night. Let alone some podcast I heard. It might sound familiar, but you know what, most of us have built-in forgetters, we need to hear things over and over and over again if we're going to remember them.

So, you can take your book, and here's what I'll do. I open the, right now I'm using a platform called Social Bee, and I take a little section and I put it up. I schedule it to go on my LinkedIn and I schedule it to go on my Twitter, the same thing. They require a little bit of finessing because for LinkedIn, it's really good to start it with a question. Know that people are going to see just the first two or three lines. So, some provocative question, followed by whatever the idea is, followed by some question at the end, that's meant to incite a conversation.

And I think that's also the main point about this social media thing. You are not shouting from the rooftops your brilliance you are having a conversation with people who are also interested in this topic. So obviously, Twitter has a count limit. So Social Bee allows you to kind of choose, you know, do a variation. But like the basics are done, I've got the two posts that are going on the same sites, and then I just kind of tweak them.

And I do, I schedule them just for weekdays. Something Monday, Tuesday and Friday. Then for Wednesday, I release, this is all so frickin meta, this podcast episode. So, then I schedule a post that has to do with this pod, whatever the week's podcast episode is. Now I started doing something where every Thursday, I talk about what was in that week's newsletter and I say, hey, you can subscribe here. That entire process takes maybe 15 minutes. And here I've got I get people to listen to the podcast, I get subscribers, and I'm constantly putting myself out there with very little work.

You could also take your book and make it into a Twitter thread. You could make it into a video, I've done that too. You know, I'll record something that's under a minute, some video, and I will post it, and the reason I make it under a minute is that YouTube shorts seem to do much better than anything that's over a minute. So, YouTube shorts was basically YouTube's attempt to be like, TikTok. So, yeah, if as long as it's under a minute, it's considered a short. When I post those, they seem to get a lot more views than when I just post other videos. And so, then I'll post it on TikTok, then maybe I'll share it also on Instagram. And I have created something that I'm using in multiple platforms that's basically just a section of my book. You could also take a quote from your book and make it into a quote card on Canva and then have some caption, that's an excerpt from your book. There are so many, many different things you can do.

Now, one of the best interviews, one of the most useful interviews I ever did with anybody about social media and audience building was Jesse J. Anderson, who I quote in the book, and he realized in his mid-30s, that he had ADHD, and he went to Twitter. He didn't have, maybe a couple 100 followers, and he started tweeting about ADHD. And he said, I talk about stuff that for most of my life, I was embarrassed. And he really treats it like a community. Now, I don't have his numbers in front of me, but like he went from a couple 100, right now, he has over 130,000 followers on Twitter. His tweets constantly go viral. He's not an ADHD expert, he's much, he has a much bigger following than ADHD experts. He's out there just talking to people, you know, and he said something that I think is so important. He goes, you're just trying to teach what you didn't know, six months ago. So good.

And Zara Barrie, when I had her on the podcast, she talked about how she'll people will say, well, I don't want to post on Instagram, I don't have a big following. And then she goes, you know, look, you've got 100 people, that's 100 people who decided they wanted to hear from you. And obviously, they're not hearing from you all the time because algorithm, people don't see anything. But if somebody's commenting on your posts, comment back, like them, do things. I try to do that for every single comment. I think it's pretty amazing that a stranger would care enough about what I have to say that they would write something.

So, and certainly answer the DMS that are not creepy or bots. All the DMs I get are from bots, who allegedly can help grow my Instagram following to a million. But here is the most important thing, especially when it comes to Instagram is that interaction means so much more than numbers.

There is an amazing New York Times story that ran in December of 2021, about how traditional publishers were overvaluing social media numbers and it talked about how Billie Eilish had 97 million Instagram followers, but her books sold 67,000 copies. Now, obviously, 67,000 is a lot, I'd love to sell that, but when you have 97 million Instagram followers, that's pathetic. Nothing against Billie. The point was, she wasn't telling people that she had a book and much like I was talking about, oh, this was in a previous episode about how I wrote a book about reality TV, not realizing that people who care about reality TV don't want to read books about it. Maybe Billie Eilish’s fans just want to listen to her music, don’t want to read her book. And Justin Timberlake has got 53 million Instagram followers, sold 100,000 copies in three years.

So, if you're not sharing about your book, then people are not going to care when it's out. And just sharing once isn't going to, you know, keep doing it and doing it and doing it. You know, I'll tell you, you see what people respond to when I write about when I post about how uncomfortable it is to do all of this stuff. I get a huge, huge response. So, see what people respond to you. And you know, it sounds so cheesy, but it's like, you're getting to know people, people I consider good friends.

I mean, Christina and Ashley, Christina and I have never even met, if you're listening. You know, she's so amazingly supportive, like this is a friend, so never forget that this isn't about numbers. And this isn't about you know, being a quote influencer. This is about building relationships, and if you build relationships with people and you show them how valuable you are, and how much you know about your topic, trust me, they're going to be begging you to write a book.

So, that is today's episode. You can find out more about this book that I am talking about by going to www.annadbook.com. And I love you, say hi, hey, if you're on social media, reach out to me. Send me a DM so that I don't have to have like the creepy weirdos or the bots telling me that they'll make me huge on Instagram. Just find me at www.annabdavid.com. No, that's not it @annabdavid. Love you. I'll talk to you next week.

CLICK ON ANY OF THE LINKS BELOW TO HEAR THIS EPISODE OR CLICK HERE TO GET THE POD ON ANY PLATFORM

Get Clear (And Not in a Scientology Sort of Way) Before You Write

 

 If someone asks you why you're writing your book and your answer is "To help people," go volunteer.

It's much easier, less time consuming and less costly than writing a book!

Or you can just listen to this episode. It's another one based on the book I'm writing. Speaking of, if you want exclusive stories, resources and info about this book as I write it, you can sign up for that on annadbook.com.

RELATED EPISODES:  

The Business of Being a Writer with Jane Friedman

How to Save Yourself From a Disastrous Book Launch with Scott Duffy

What a Book Can Do For an Entrepreneur with Rich Goldstein

TRANSCRIPT:

Well, hello there, and welcome to the podcast that changes names as often as you change underwear.

Well, I hope less often than you change underwear.

It's Anna David, I talk to the world's most successful entrepreneurs and best-selling authors about how to create and launch a book that will transform your business, give you authority, work for you, without ever asking for a raise for the rest of your life.

So this is another of my solo episode solo episodes. It’s based on the book I'm currently writing. And if you want more information about that book, I highly recommend signing up because I'm giving you all the latest tips and techniques. And if you listen to this, I'm, I'm hoping you're listening because you want to publish a book that will help build your authority. If not, you just enjoy listening to podcasts on topics that you would have no interest in, which is bizarre. But if you're a part of the first group, go to www.annadbook.com. And sign up for more information there.

This episode is about getting clear about your book before you write. Now, I will tell you, I didn't have a goal. For the first six books I wrote, If you had come up to me and asked me what my goal was, I probably would have said, “Well, I don't know how to be a best-selling author.” A lot of people and actually I will say with Party Girl, my original concept was “Oh my god, if I could help one person see how fun and funny recovery is and can be, I will have done something good.” So I was like the people that I'm about to talk about, which are the first-time authors who say to me when I ask them why they want to do a book and they say, “I want to help people.” 

So what I often say, and I'm considered rude for saying, is I think helping people is amazing. I hope all my books help people. But if your main goal is to help people, there are far easier ways. You could go volunteer today. So this is partially this, like put your own oxygen mask on first philosophy. And partially just advice from a realist, because if your book is solely to help people, if you’re releasing a book, you're going to spend a lot of time or a lot of money, possibly both, or there's no point in doing it.

The statistic I've heard is that it takes a first-time author roughly 300 hours to write a book. So I always recommend when people say, “Well, how do I know if I should get help writing the book,” ask yourself what do you make an hour, multiply that by 300. That's what you'll spend. And you haven't even started looking at editing and launch and cover and all of that stuff. 

That being said, some people just have it in them. They just want to write the book. And I can see it. And that's their dream. And that's fine. But do know that if you are not a professional writer who's been writing every day, all day, for the past decade, somebody who has been doing that is going to do a better job.

My point, that was a little bit of a tangent, my point is that if your book is just to help people and you spend a lot of time and money putting it out there, it's really not a very good deal for you. I mean, it really is like putting the oxygen mask on the person next to you while allowing yourself to die in the plane going down. So why not have something to show for it, aside from some people you don't know who may never even tell you that you help them? Why not do it in a way that can help both of you? The way you do that is you say…

Who is my book for? So let’s go into a little example. Let's say your book is about how you started your business. First, there's an easy question: what is your business? You can even write this down. Unless you're driving. Okay, let's say you're a coach. 

So then the book topic could be about whatever it is you struggled with that made you want to become a coach. Okay, there we go. So then you go, who are my readers?

Well, let's assume it's people who want help with whatever you struggled with. But let's drill down more. So ask yourself: why do they want help? Is it because they believe that overcoming this issue will help them find love? Is it because they think it will help them become more successful? Is it both?

And what if you can't answer that? Then you should be going out and putting stuff out there about this topic and seeing what people are responding. But we're not going to social media to try to become influencers and show off our abs, I don't know, I don't know, I can't think of the shallow reasons people go to social media. We are going to find our tribe, and to interact with them so we can find out what they're interested in and also help establish our authority at the same time.

So that's how you're going to be able to answer.

If you're getting no action in any of the places, go to different groups, I don't know, Facebook, Whatsapp, Reddit, go and find out what people want to know that you are also passionate about. There is the Venn diagram where there is a crossover and you’ve got to find it. Because if you're just writing something that you think people are going to like, but gee, I got no passion for it. It's not going to work.

Sidebar, let's do a tiny tangent, my second book bought Bought, I wrote because I had a resentment. I had a resentment that like all good resentments was very justified. I was writing for Details Magazine, and I had this wonderful editor. And we came up with this story idea that I was going to infiltrate the seedy side of high-class prostitution in Hollywood, I was going to find out about Playboy playmates and porn stars and actresses that got paid like 10s of 1000s of dollars for a night. And I did, I can't even tell you, I was visiting pimp’s houses, I drove to this place called Canyon Country where I got a disc that a guy who went to prison in Cuba for being a pimp gave to this private detective, I found out about this woman who was funding a presidential campaign with the money, and it was so good. And it was going to be career changing.

But unfortunately, my editor left to go to another place. And I was given this other editor, and I presented him with this amazing research. And he says, “You know, I think this is really more going to be a story about how rich guys get their rocks off.” So then they run this, they cut everything interesting from the story, they run the story. And then the next month, they run that they run a letter from a reader that says, “I don't know how Anna David managed to take such an interesting topic and make it so boring.” And you know what? I had to agree with them. So anyway, it was all this editor’s fault and when I was meeting with my Party Girl editorial team And they said, “Do you have another book idea?” I said, “You know what, I do.” And I gave them this idea about high class prostitution in Hollywood thinking I could fictionalize it. Finally, all my hard work will have paid off!

But I neglected to do one thing, which was to ask myself, do I care about high class hookers?

The answer is no, I have no judgment about it. I'm just totally indifferent. So then I get this book deal. And I end up creating an entire book about a topic I am not interested in. And if somebody had come to me and said, “Hey, what is your why?” I would have said, “I don't have one.”

So drill down until you have your why and you know who your book is for, maybe it's for…to continue the coach example, what you wanted to know five years ago, or before you became a coach. Keep drilling down until you have what feels like the perfect combination of what you want to share and what people want to know.

And that's your elevator pitch. I talk about this all the time but If you don't have the template for that, you can just go to www.bookelevatorpitch.com. But basically, you need to be able to fill in the sentence. My book is for blank, who want blank so they can blank. And don't feel like you know, you're getting married to this, you're dating it. So don't worry that it's not perfect, because it can evolve. 

I talked about this in a previous episode, but this book I'm currently writing evolved once I got beta readers who showed me that I didn't that the book was not for them. So a couple examples.

My book is for health enthusiast who want to follow a keto diet so they can be in the best shape possible.

My book is for women who want to invest in real estate so they can be financially independent. 

My book is for doctors who want to avoid burnout so they can continue to practice medicine and have balance in their lives.

Those are elevator pitches for books we've done. Possibly it makes sense to stop this right now and write down your elevator pitch. Unless you’re driving.

So if we're going to continue with the example of the fictional person writing the book about how she when she got over to become a coach, let's ask, Who is the reader? Is it a married mom of two whose last child just left for college so she's looking for something new? Or is it the CEO of a multimillion-dollar company who's achieved everything but find something missing?

Again, you're going to know this from interacting with your readers. Now, if the answer is the second, always think of that avatar, the archetypal person to refer to so you stay on track because it will help you determine what to include and what not to include. For my book Make Your Mess Your Memoir, I pictured two people, there are a couple there, this amazing couple that I know from Genius Network. And I talked to them about working with them on their book, and they were always my dream client. So I write this book, and every page of the book, I'm picturing them, I'm picturing them reading it, I'm deciding would that speak to them, would that offend them, would that excite them. And I finished the book. And guess what, they don't read it. I don't see them for a while. I'm busy person. So they don't hire me. But enough people just like them do that we bring in hundreds of 1000s of dollars in new business because of that book. Because if there's one, there's many, and when you write a book that specifically for a certain person, they are going to read that book and want to recommend it to everybody. So even if it's not the person that you're picturing, there is someone else. 

So anyway, a couple of years after Make Your Mess comes out, I see this couple at a Genius Network annual event. And I say “Oh my god, I have something funny to tell you, I wrote a book for you. And I went on Good Morning America with it and everything.” And they're like, “What?” I explained this to them. And I said, “Actually, it's in the gifting suite right down the hall.” And they thought that was so great. And they went and got it. And guess what? They’re now our clients. So my point isn’t to picture people and then not tell them about your book, then wait till you see them a year later and tell them. My point is that this works. So be really clear about who your book is for.

If you’re the coach, and you want to attract clients that are successful CEOs, but you know a lot about the experiences of empty nester moms but that’s not your ideal reader slash client, don't include it in the book.

And remember, expert blindness is our worst enemy, like the sheer amount of knowledge you have about your topic is actually a detriment because you're too inside the fishbowl to fully understand what your reader wants to know.

And that is something that I struggle with all the time, because there are terms that people who know about publishing use and then there are terms that that people who don't use. For example, the word “blurbs,” if you work in traditional publishing, a blurb is an endorsement but somehow with self-publishing, blurb came to mean book description. And then what we call blurbs are called endorsements. So even though I know the quote unquote correct way to do it, if I want people to understand it, I might have to use different language. 

You also want to get really clear about what you want your reader to do once they've read your book. So I'm always saying this but you want your reader to be able to do what it is you're describing or if they don't have the time and do have the budget, you want them to hire you. But your book should not be like a 200-page ad for your services. In order for it to be successful and to mean anything to you, to has to be the culmination of your knowledge on your topic. And it has to be so detailed that a reader could finish it and do whatever it is you're describing but it also should show your knowledge so impressively, that you showcase yourself as the authority on your topic.

So get very clear about the problem you're solving and what you want your readers to do when they finish reading. Do you want them to hire your company, employ you as a consultant, take your course sign up for your coaching program, pay you to speak? Whatever it is, figure it out before or at least as you write.

Of course, just because you published your book doesn't mean people are going to immediately flock to you. The beta reader that I have talked about I saw she posted that she was being published by a company that goes out and establishes speaking careers for their authors.

Here’s the thing: nobody establishes your speaking career but you, and I've talked about this in other episodes, but there's no such thing as a sort of speaking agent you can pay to get your speaking gigs. Speaking agents take a percentage, so they want speakers who are already getting paid. 

So this book that I'm writing goes deeply into how you can launch your speaking career from your book and how you can use your material from your book. And so a reminder, if you want advance information about this book, go to www.annadbookcom.

But anyway, just because you publish your book doesn't mean everybody's going to start hiring you. But a consultant I know told me that a few months after his book release, it's actually a book that we did. He brought in half a million dollars in new contracts. What he said to me is, “I can't say for sure it's the book that did it. But I can say that every new client had read the book.” I interviewed JJ Virgin, a really successful entrepreneur and New York Times bestselling author for Entrepreneur Magazine, and she said, “If people read my books, they'll buy my products. We have a relationship, they just took you into their bedroom or bathroom, they feel like they know you.”

 My final point is this: be obsessed with your topic. I told you what happened to me with the hookers, I not only wasn't obsessed, I couldn't care less. So you shouldn't plan to dash this off before moving on to the next topic. Because your book, unlike a TV show, isn't going away. You can promote it forever, which means it can continue to help you get what you want long after it's released.

A decade after Party Girl was released, I did the audiobook and a very famous music musician who was struggling with his drinking reached out to me and asked if I could coach him. And I said, “I'm not a sober coach.” And he said, he didn't care. He wanted to hire the person who wrote Party Girl because he knew she would understand them. And he literally said, “I'll pay you $1,000 to speak to me.” I had to talk him down. I ended up coaching him. I mean, I ended sort of working with him for years. And I have potential clients who reach out to me every week because they read Make Your Mess Your Memoir. So I have no doubt the same will be true for the book I'm writing and the book you're writing.

So share your book as you write it. This is so meta but I'm doing this right now. And by letting you guys hear this, hearing your responses to it, I'm getting not only more information about what you want, but I am continuing to establish my authority. I'm discovering what you respond to, what you ignore, what are your interests and your blind spots? I am drilling down.

So that's it for this week. I hope you enjoyed this solo episode again, get more information about this book that I'm talking about by going to www.annadbook.com and I will see you next week.

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Why Rose-Colored Publishing Glasses Will Bite You in the Ass

 

You're not a delusional person.

At least not usually.

But you may be one when it comes to publishing.

And that's why I made this episode.

It's based on the book I'm currently writing and it's about the delusions I see first-time authors suffer from. Seriously, publishing seems to inspire more delusions than Hugh Grant movies!

So here's your wake-up call. Don't hit snooze! 

And if you want exclusive stories, resources and info about this book as I write it, you can sign up for that on annadbook.com.

TRANSCRIPT:  

Anna: Well, hello there and welcome to my podcast hosted by Anna David, whereI talk to authors and experts about how to launch a best-selling book that will transform your business. And well normally, these are interviews.

Today I am doing a solo episode. And it's going to be a series of solo episodes based on material in the book I'm currently writing. And the madness of that is that the book is based on different interviews I've done in the podcast. So basically, you're getting conglomerations of episodes that have created chapters that I'm now breaking down into episodes.

It's kind of awesome. The book, if you would like to get more information about the book, get advance notice, get bonuses, find out about the latest and greatest techniques when it comes to launching a book, go to www.annadbook.com. And you can sign up for that there.

But this episode is it's something that I definitely talk about a lot. But this is the if you've never heard me before because you've sort of been like putting cotton in your ears and like, I don't want to hear this. Hear me now, rose colored publishing glasses will bite you in the ass. And the reason this needs to be said and resaid and resaid is that publishing somehow seems to inspire more delusions than Hugh Grant romantic comedies.

Everybody thinks they're going to be the exception, and I get it. I thought I was going to be the exception six times; guess what? I never was the exception. You hear things like, "Oh, the average book sells 300 copies. Oh, um, you know, you're probably not gonna become a New York Times bestselling author. By the way, I know. I did become a New York Times bestselling author. And I never stopped talking about it because it was so monumental but publishing was so broken by the time that happened to one of my books that I couldn't even afford the cab fare to the party for it.

So, this notion that "I'm going to write a book, it's going to be a massive bestseller, I'm going to get in the New York Times list, I'm going to be rich" or whatever it is, is delusional. But it's kind of worse than that. Because what I see happening are people who are so convinced that they're going to be the expert that if you try to tell them the truth, like I'm doing now, they get really upset. And I learned this firsthand.

I gathered beta readers for this book. And that is something that Rob Fitzpatrick really recommended in his episode. I had never done it before. And so, I decided to try it with this book. Because essentially, I'm trying everything that I've heard people recommend on this show. I ended up gathering some people who are already on my list, maybe some of you listening, and then other people from Rob Fitzpatrick's site.

Now it was very interesting. Even though the comments were anonymous, it was very easy to tell which were the people that came from my list, and which were the people that came from his site. Because the people that came from his site were universally so delusional about how publishing works. All the people from his site are aspiring authors, who kind of think they're going to be the exception.

And all the people that were from my list, get, they didn't love everything, but they gave really constructive feedback. Now this I actually copied and pasted some of the feedback that I got from these aspiring delusional authors.

Comment one, I feel like you're really selling this book to me hard, I'm starting to lose interest. Then a few paragraphs later, this story is unrelatable. It makes you think you need to be famous; I'd cut it. I talked about someone who took a writing course in order to write her book and this person wrote, I doubt readers will have the luxury to take a 90-day writing course and much less the time to produce a manuscript in 45 days. I don't know how this story helps me. Then, this feels like an article more than a how to. Then this is the first value I found in the book, and it's buried. This feels classless and cold. Then she wrote this book is trite, but I will say later I went back and other people that highlighted the part that she called trite, and she seemed to have deleted her comment by the by.

She wrote me an email saying It was my pleasure to read your book. I've dropped some comments and will continue to do so hope they’re helpful. For the record she spelled there, T H E R E. My point is this, she 100% thought she was helping me. Another person from that site who thought he was helping me said, I wanted to let you know I started to read your book, but I opted out because it started to feel disjointed. I was having a hard time staying with the premise but I'm happy to answer any questions you might ask.

These are people who, again have never written a book but are happy to answer questions I may have for them. What that taught me...it really did hurt me, as you can tell from the fact that I'm still talking about it was months ago. But it really taught me to make it really clear who your book is for.

My book is not for delusional, wannabe writers who think they're going to sell a book to a big publisher and, you know, be mammothly successful in all of those ways. My book is for successful entrepreneurs with very expansive mentalities who understand that a book can help them build authority in a way that nothing else can.

So, I was able to sort of revise the book, not sort of but completely revise the book, and make it clear from the title—from every bit of material I put out there—that, hi, this book is not for you. So, my point is just make sure you know who your book is for. And maybe it'll actually help you to do what I did, which is get beta readers that were completely wrong for the book. But if you're a fragile soul, like me, just get beta readers that are actually the people you want to read your book.

But most importantly, be realistic about this. Don't have those rose colored glasses.

When I first got into publishing, Party Girl my agent sold to HarperCollins in 2005. And it came out in 2007. And this was really the golden era. I mean, there was a far more golden era. But it's a compared to right now, extreme golden era. And publishing—Sex in the City—was still a thing. And publishers and writers were very glamorous. And they went to lunch at this place called Michaels. And you got money when your book was optioned.

And I was a journalist. And so, I got book deals because there was no social media. So, the way a platform was decreed was if you had a name as a journalist, and I did at the time. But it was not what it appeared on the outside. And also, I feel like it really was a good time. 2005. And by the time I sold my next book came out, which was 2009, it had become a bad time.

But the thing is, I don't think this is bad news. I think this is actually great news, because the gatekeepers have left the building. For all that people rail against Amazon and what it's done to our society while we happily accept getting slippers that we don't need delivered later this afternoon...It it has done wonders for writers and entrepreneurs everywhere, because it has given us this ability to declare ourselves the chosen one and publish our books.

While you could write and publish a book by the end of this episode, which is going to be very short, you shouldn't do that you should do it at the very highest level. As I often say, Amazon forgives, but it doesn't forget. So, if you put your book out there, and it is not what you want it to be, you can put it to draft and it will just show as unavailable. But you know, if you're someone like me, you maybe put out a book with a title that's really embarrassing to you. Reach out to me on social media and I will tell you the title of that book and why it's so embarrassing. And the fact that it won't go away really, really sucks.

So don't do that. But know that you you should hire the best experts to help you but you don't need to submit your book over and over and over again to different agents or wait to hear if you're good enough and then have them submit to publishers to wait to hear if you're good enough and then have it released two years later.

You can decide you're good enough. There is nothing that a big publisher can do that you can't do for yourself by hiring people. I have my books that I've published myself in bookstores while my HarperCollins published books are not. I got on Good Morning America, with a book I published myself, I could not for my HarperCollins published books.

So, I explain this to more people than I can count. And then I often get back this Yeah, but it'll be different for me because I'm gonna sell a million copies, I don't really need to listen to this shit look back. And they compare themselves to the exception and not the rule.

And I see a few things happen. One, they feel bitterly disappointed when their book comes out. And they never write another book. Two, they convince themselves they feel good about the situation and never admit to anyone that it didn't go the way they wanted it to but it's really obvious. Three, they write more books thinking the next one will be the ticket. That's what I did, six times. And four, they wise up, see that a book is the best tool that exists for establishing them as an expert, and commit to doing a book that will enhance their authority.

So, I say, if you are lucky enough to hear this, before you have to go through that or what I went through with my six books, you can do it right the first time. You can figure out, who do I serve? Now, if you're saying, well, I'm not an authority on anything, I highly, highly doubt that. Not only do studies show that podcast listeners are incredibly well educated and intelligent, but I would bet you do something that you do very well. And if you can build a business around that and write a book that shows people both how to do it and shows other people that they can hire you to do it for them, you can have an incredibly successful career and actually be paid what you're worth.

Those who say that it's crass, as as my beta reader said, to talk about making money from a book...I get that there are people who have an issue with combining art and commerce, but I have an issue with relegating authors to being paid pennies. I think you should be paid well. But I also know that unless you're Glennon Doyle and the sun seems to shine on you, despite obvious reasons why, you're going to need a business to back it up.

So that's a my schpiel if you would like more hard to hear lessons, but actual tips and techniques that can make this happen for you, definitely go sign up to get advanced notification about all things related to my book, which by the way, is the same title as this podcast, On Good Authority, go to www.annadbook.com. So that's it for this week. I'll talk to you next. 

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CLICK ON ANY OF THE LINKS BELOW TO HEAR THIS EPISODE OR CLICK HERE TO GET THE POD ON ANY PLATFORM

Getting Book Launch Support From Your Peeps with Amber Vilhauer

 

 

Amber Vilhauer is a leading digital strategist but she's so much more.

The founder of NGNG (No Guts No Glory) has come up with a system more ingenious than any I've ever seen when it comes to helping authors corral their network to support their book launches. Longtime listeners know that I'm a pretty jaded person who's tough to impress so you know how much it means when I say that when Amber shared her system and copy and videos with me, I was as blown away as I've been by any strategy I've seen during my decades in publishing.

In this episode, she breaks that strategy down by explaining how authors should approach the people they know, what to say when they do and how to make sure that getting support for a book launch is just as much about giving as it is receiving.

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      TRANSCRIPT:

Anna David: Even though, Amber, what you may not know is that I've written two emails about you to my newsletter list. That's how impressed I am by you.

Amber: Girl, come on.

Anna David: Because it's, I told you when we spoke, I am just blown away by your level of organization and your brilliance with even the small things. So, your assistant sent me I said, oh, send me a bio and pictures and she sends me the most exquisite link to the most exquisite page. I have known many people, including myself who have tried to have bio pages, media pages, it just was perfect. So I redid mine.

Amber: Yay.

Anna David: Then I put it in my newsletter as an example, please go look at Amber's page. I was at a holiday party last night and someone comes up to me and said, I loved that woman, she said that woman, your last name’s hard to pronounce, that woman’s page in your newsletter. So it's making waves.

Amber: Oh my gosh, you're so amazing. Gosh, I just want to keep you by my side all day every day.

Anna David: No, I just know I never blow smoke my my listeners know that.

Amber: I know that about you. So that's why it means so much. But listen, Anna, I really there's something here and I want to build upon that. And next year and the year after.

Anna David: That means so much. So let me tell listeners who who why I'm so blown away. So we're introduced by previous podcast guest, Kay Allison. And I know just like me, you're introduced to people all the time. And you're like, yeah, hi. Okay. Why didn't you ask me before you did the intro. But I had heard about you. And I'm like, I really want to meet her. You showed me your system for book marketing, and I've been doing this for 20 years, and I've never seen anything like it. So would you describe what it is you show your clients how to do?

Amber: Yes, well, I do all sorts of things. So for 15 years, I've had my company NGNG, which stands for No Guts, No Glory. And we started out as a website and branding company, I was a total geek, I taught myself code, I started blogging about the stuff I was I was just learning about online from SEO to copywriting and affiliate marketing and funnels and webinars and membership programs. And as soon as I could prove that I could really crush something, I would open it up as a service to one of my clients. Well, 15 years later, I find myself in a really unique position. Because I've seen a lot, I've been a part of a lot, I know a lot, I've executed a lot, I've perfected a lot, and I know that in order to make the strongest and most positive impact on the world that I can, I need to also document what I know so that I can have a brilliant team that helps me in the execution of it. And along the way, Anna, the world wanted me for book launches. And I actually resisted it. I resisted it for years, I did not promote that I do book launches, it was just something I did from time to time. And I didn't want to do it because I think launches are stressful and chaotic, and I wanted a calmer life than that. But as the world continued, it was actually Mike Michalowicz who came to me a few years ago. And he's like, listen, you have to do my book launch. And I said, ah, it's Mike. Fine. I'll do your book launch. And then Mike told everybody and that was that it was undeniable. I had to fall in love with it, which I did. So thank you Mike Michalowicz, you are always gonna be my friend. But what I can bring into a book launch is different than pretty much anybody I've ever seen. Because a lot of people who manage about book launches, coaches, execution teams, publishing companies, etc, is they're all about the launch itself, that day, let's drum up some support. Ask everybody that you know, to pitch it on your behalf. And let's poof get it out there. Oh, and then you're on your own good luck. And so an author is sitting here and man, they don't know anything about marketing. Usually, they don't like it. They just want to write their book. That's where they fell in love with this process, not being the next Instagram star. And the thoughts of that makes them want to cringe usually. They also don't look at themselves, usually as a business owner, and they just want to speak, they just want to help people, right? And so I've really observed this, and I'm such a lover of people, Anna, so I really

Anna David: I can tell.

Amber: I get to know my authors. They come in, I don't judge where they came from. And I just say, Listen, believe it or not you’re a business owner. I'm going to help you fall in love with marketing. I'm going to help you get the lined monetization model because I need you to make money off of this book. The book alone isn't going to do it. I'm sorry to crush that idea of selling millions of copies.

Anna David: Preach!

Amber: Yeah, but there's a business here and then I start to educate them as to why that's a good thing and how they I reframe their mindset in every possible way to see that this is an opportunity to actually make the transformation they want to make in the world. But in order to do that, we have to look at this as a business, which means that I have to come in and teach you what you need to know about how your website can actually attract and qualified buyers, you can make an emotional connection with them right out of the gates, you can guide them step by step on what you want them to do through video, you don't even have to be there. That website is your salesperson for you. So you don't have to feel like you have to be a high pressure salesperson. Then I'm going to help you with your marketing. And with your marketing, you can't be the one to do it, which is actually when they feel that sign of relief. But you shouldn't be doing your marketing. But I also don't want you to hire an agency that's going to charge you one to $5,000 a month to do something that you could be doing internally. So instead, I'm going to teach you how to fish, I'm going to help you find a very capable, amazing, talented, creative marketing assistant, I call this person a CMA. I want to find that person that you align with that you really feel safe with. And that gets you and I want to train that person on everything I know about internet marketing, so that that person can optimize your videos on YouTube and write your blog posts and help do all your social media for you and manage your email list and all of that for $30 an hour, less than 10 hours a week. Okay, this is a game changer for authors, because now it looks like they're everywhere, their marketing is consistent, and they don't have to do it. So I help them overcome a lot of those fears. When we actually move into book launch season, then that's when I teach them something I'm really proud of that does make me stand out here in this way as well. And also what I think you were asking me about originally before this very long answer, but I teach them a signature relationship management operation. Now the world of book launch right now, especially because so many people are launching books, it tends to be pretty transactional. Hey, Anna, I'm launching a book in two months, I really need a favor. Can you please send an email to your list? Can you put it on social media? Can you buy bulk copies? Because I'm trying to do this and I need the help. So can you help me? That's putting a strain on relationships. And Anna's over here thinking like, I have 15 friends asking me to pitch them, I have my own message I'm trying to get out. I don't have time for this right now. And this isn't aligned for me. But then you feel obligated and things get weird, right?

Anna David: Right.

Amber: I see this about humanity. And I think, okay, we can't make it about Amber, the author or even Anna, what we have to do is reposition this whole concept into it being about the cause. So Anna, I'm really a big believer of human connection. And I'm just seeing how much in the world right now, trust is broken everywhere. And the only way that we're going to move forward and be better together is if we can just find a way to be open and trust each other again, and connect. And I wrote this book because I believe in it. And if I don't get this book out, Anna, I just don't even know what's going to happen next. So I'm really trying to do this for the cause. And you know, it you strike me as a person who really believes in connection too, and if you stand by this cause is there a win-win that we can create, where I can help your business and you can help mine and we can fix this world together? That's a very different approach than, can you send an email to your email list for me and pitch my book? So that's kind of the relationship management operation at a high level. And the last thing I'll say is when we launch the book, that's just day one of your book’s journey, we would have already in advance created a plan to actually get that message out there at scale, continue book sales, get you monetizing to cover the cost of the platform development and all of that. So you actually have a sustainable brand moving forward.

Anna David: I love it. I love it. And so the way that you walk people through it, there's there's tier one and tier two. One is a group that, you know, one is a group you want to be connected with. And tier two is who you already know is that is that really how it goes?

Amber: Yes, yeah. So you're gonna have people that you naturally know in your network. And you're not going to think of those people when you first get started. You're going to think, I don't know anybody. But when you actually start to thought jog, you know, all sorts of people that you've met, either through prospecting calls, client calls, you showed up at the same event, you were in a mastermind together, look at your Facebook contacts, your LinkedIn, who did you talk to in the last calendar year in your, you know, Google Calendar, who's in your phone, when you start to really look around? You know a lot more people than you think you do. And that's kind of the first step. And only once you have kind of re-sparked that relationship, you revived it, you sort of have mutually shared your intentions trying to suss out, if you can have a collaboration together moving forward and be more intentional about that relationship, then you can kind of start looking at who would I like to know, you know, I want to know, Brené Brown, or I want to know, whomever it is, that's great. Add those people to your list and allow this snowball to start to form and build momentum and then leverage that. And then there are really direct and creative ways to get the Brené Browns on your side. But don't start there. You got to start within your own network, I can help you overcome the nerves that you have around it, because I'm telling you, it will be a firework show, and you will thank me every single day if you just trust me on this piece.

Anna David: So to connect, I mean, so it's first asking the people you know who they know. But I also love that you sort of have this strategy. I know about people using gift boxes for their launch. But your strategy involves doing that even earlier, kind of, let's say you're getting to know someone you you want to know, sending them something. What do you send them?

Amber: Absolutely. So imagine like a little Amazon box, except the box is designed based on your book cover or your website branding. There's such an opportunity to add color. I even have this client Zander Fryer. And he has this book, I hope it's okay to say out loud, it's the Shit You Don't Learn In College. And he's a superstar influencer for the college crowd. And when you get his box, there's the book cover kind of on the front. And when you open it up on the inside of the box is a manifesto that he wrote that is honestly one of the most inspired pieces of content I've ever read. And you wouldn't think that every single side of that box can be designed. Why does that matter? Because it stands out. It's different. It evokes emotion, it makes me want to connect, it makes me stand behind his cause. Then on the inside of the box, there's a copy of his book that signed there's a postcard that might talk about why he wrote the book and what his vision is for this book and how he's creates this call to action, like a battle cry that you join his cause and we shift humanity together, right. And then maybe there's something else included in that. I mean, Zander did a journal. I've had other clients like this Cole Berschback, she had a pencil that we found and engraved her tagline on the side of the pencil. And when you stick it in soil and water it, it turns into a cilantro plant. And her tagline was, here we grow. And it was a pickup like a parenting coaching kind of company. So there's all sorts of fun things that you can do to create an impression. And if you send that gift box out to the people that you know, or want to know, it's something different than just a book in a mail with a printout letter that's a generic template that everybody else got. And it's not even signed, right. That's what most people do. It doesn't take much to move the needle and make an impression. I even had a client, Kevin Simpson, who ordered 700 700 of these gift boxes. He sent them out to his clients, his friends and media contacts. And then boom

Anna David: Wow.

Amber: I bet you can guess what happened next.

Anna David: Wow. And you even have your process goes so deep. There's even when you send a box to somebody, here's showed them a video so that they can have like instructions on how to unbox it and show it on social media. You've thought of everything.

Amber: Yes. So after we send out the box, I'll give this document to my clients. And it'll say here's a lot of different things that we can do with the box. So so there's like a video I've had influencers do a live stream to their audience.

Anna David: Yeah.

Amber: Oh my gosh, I just got this box from Kary Oberbrunner. And here's what's in it and this 20-minute pitch fest for Kary and his book, just because Paul Dunn got the box. And so Paul was the one that went live or take photos, write it for Amazon reviews, and people just get spun up in the experience of it all, Anna, so it feels less like a chore. I have to do this, another thing on my to do list and all of a sudden it becomes something that feels invigorating and fun. It's better together. You're a part of something special, like everybody wants to be a part of that.

Anna David: I love it. And so if anyone listening, is like, wait a minute, I can't afford to send 700 boxes, there are a lot of strategies that require no money. So one of the brilliant things that you instruct people to do is just to basically send out that list like as Amber said, people send out, hey can you share, but this is something strategically sent out and says how can you help me and it's literally a checkbox, right?

Amber: Yes. When somebody says, well, sure, I mean, I can help. I don't know how I can help right now, then the next step is we send them to a web page that says, listen, there's no pressure here. Here are all of the ways in which you could support the book launch, just check the ones that you're most interested in. And there's probably like a dozen to 15 different options. Do you know? Do you want to host me on your podcast? Do you want to submit an endorsement? Do you want to just introduce me to somebody that you might know that might benefit from this message? Should we co-host a webinar? Or would you like me to speak on your stage, whether in person or virtually? Do you want to hire me to come in and support your mastermind or whatever? Do you want to post on social? Send an email to your following? Do you want to have an Instagram Live? As you know, fill in the blank, what else do you want to do? And I've had people do all sorts of amazing things. And so that is absolutely a way that you can elicit support without having to send a gift box. I would say that maybe, I don't know, 50% of our clients end up sending out the gift box. And to your point, if somebody's thinking, oh, gosh, I'm on a limited budget here. That's exactly why I approach the book launch the way that I do. Because if it were only about the book launch, yeah, that would be a real concern. Instead, I'm looking at your whole business. So then I think to myself, okay, if we're on a budget, how do we make you money fast? Makes me think of a client named David. He had a sort of fractional CFO business, I had four months to launch the book. He hires me in September, the launch is in December, by the end of September, within a month of working together, I got David set up to run an event. And it was supposed to be virtual, he ended up later really wanting to do it in person, but should have been virtual charge $5,000, a person he got, you know, 10 or 15 people in the room, bam, I helped him with the agenda, I set up the logistics, it cost him nothing to get that started. Now he had some seed money so that he could have the kind of launch that he really wanted to have. So just know that regardless of how much time you have to launch or what your circumstances, there is always a way forward, that doesn't have to put you in a position of stress and chaos. Because anybody who's putting you in a position of stress and chaos, shame on them, everybody's job should be to protect you and your energy so that you can shine as the bright light that you are. So your energy has to be protected in this process every step of the way.

Anna David: And one of the nice things in terms of protecting energy is if you go, I don't want to have to keep asking people and asking people. The amazing thing about Amber’s system is you ask once, and then you have a support team that is doing all the follow up. So if it makes you uncomfortable to ask, it's just working through that once basically.

Amber: Yeah, that's right. So what I would try to do in the sense of like the creative marketing assistant I spoke to earlier, we can use that person or another person on the team, or I can help you find another person more of like a project manager. But let's say for the purposes of this operation, it's going to be almost a communications manager, right? So if I'm, again, the author, we're role playing here, and I ask Anna to be a part of my book launch. And she says, Well, sure. I guess I could help what what's the next step. I could then say, I'm so thankful, I'm going to introduce you to Megan, who's my communications manager, she's going to walk you through all of the different options. I don't want to get in the way and make you feel pressured. So you do what's in the highest and best for you, Anna, because I want to protect our friendship. And please know anything that I can be doing for you to support just knock on my door anytime. I'll let you two take it from here. Megan then introduces herself, Anna, oh my gosh, well, I'm here to make it a win-win. So please let me know what your vision is in your business, how I can support you. Here's that form that you can fill out to check the boxes on what is exciting to you. I'm here, if you want to hop on a call, if that's easier, or just take you know, take your time here, on the back end of Anna filling out that form, Meghan can then go straight to great, I see that you would like to have Amber on your podcast, I can facilitate that booking right now based on what's convenient in your schedule. I see that you also asked to submit an Amazon review. Here's a document that teaches you step by step how to submit that review on Amazon, as well as some helpful hints to get it accepted because Amazon is actually pretty, you know, tricky these days. And we want to make sure that it gets published. And then I see you also wanted to post on social media. So here's some example graphics. Here's some example copy. And you know, Anna, we're just so thankful for you. We'll promote you to our network during the launch as a supporter and drive some business back to you. If there's anything else I can do for you in this process, please let me know. Then there's also documentation where Meghan knows to send reminder emails just before the book launch in case Anna gets busy, forgets, then there's still that custom, personalized, warm, friendly communication, right around the launch window. So that at the end of the day, it's a win-win, everybody wins. Nobody was stressed out, it didn't put a strain on the relationship, there wasn't unnecessary pressure. And ultimately, me as the quote, author, well, I got to just focus on the outreach, nurturing relationships, and then it's my responsibility to keep those relationships nurtured in the future. So it doesn't look like I'm just somebody who only reaches out when I need something, because nobody wants more friends like that.

Anna David: Okay, we have to get close to wrapping up. I'm so proud of myself for watching the time though. One final thing that I wanted to ask if someone's listening, and they're like, what, what do you mean? What kind of business could I have from this? You talked about your client who had the event? What are some other possibilities if they want to make their investment back on the book 10 to 100 times?

Amber: Oh, my gosh, it could really be anything Anna. And you know, all of my conversations are extremely custom. I don't share ideas twice, usually. So it could be I was just talking to a client yesterday, she's going to start doing a girl's night out like a once a month sort of membership, almost. I've talked to other clients about hosting retreats, like a meditation, sort of wellness sharing, you know, open conversation retreat, it could be a mastermind, one of my clients built him an $8 million first year business before the book even launched, we had started that monetization model. And it was literally just a mastermind where people got together virtually once a month. It could be that you want to do some sort of consulting or group coaching. A lot of times people come to me and they say, I really want to do a course. And I think why do you want to do a course? And they don't have a good answer except to say, well, because that's what I should do, it's what everybody else is doing. That's what I was told to do, right? Wrong. If you don't want to manage a community and be in that course constantly making updates and onboard another team of people. Then you're a course you have no business running a course right? So you just need to understand what your options are, know who you are, and the type of lifestyle that you want to have. Then hire somebody who knows the options and can help filter them out so that you stay in alignment with how you want to spend your time, but there's always a way forward.

Anna David: I love it. So Amber, if people want to find out more about you find out more about your services. What should they do?

Amber: Just google me, I'm everywhere. You can't miss me. NGNG Enterprises is the name of the company. So just remember No Guts, No Glory. You can also go to amberv.com because nobody knows how to say, spell or remember Vilhauer. So amberv.com could get you there. I'm all over social. My YouTube channel is packed with amazing value. And I don't say that with ego. I just put it all out there for people so that I can help more authors. And just anytime I'm such an easy person to reach out to, I'm here for you. I believe in authors. I want you to succeed. So just let me know how I can help.

Anna David: I love it Amber. Thank you so much. And you guys, thank you for listening.

Amber: Thank you. 

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What a Book Coach Does—and How to Become One—with Jennie Nash

 

Jennie Nash is the book coach whisperer.

Or at least that's what I've named her after talking to her. The founder and CEO of Author Accelerator, a company that trains, certifies and supports book coaches so they can help writers do their best work, Nash has helped clients land top agents, six-figure book deals and make both the New York Times and Wall Street Journal bestseller lists.

Also the author of 11 books in three different genres, Nash has certified over 130 coaches. If you've ever thought, "Hey, I might like to be a book coach," get this: the cost for certification is only $2400. If you're instead interested in hiring a coach, listen in on this episode to find out more. You can also find out more about both becoming a coach and hiring one here.

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Jeff Goins on How Real Artists Don't Need to Starve

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How to Launch a Book by Giving First with Kay Allison

 

Kay Allison is a former Senior Vice President at a global ad agency who increased her income by six, met and married a man she’s still crazy about 21 years later, helped Fortune 200 companies generate two billion in new revenue, adopted a child and invented four successful businesses since going alcohol free over two decades ago.

In short, she's learned how to live a JUICY AF life. And now she's written a book it.

While we talk a bit in this episode about being AF and her program for women who want to go AF, mostly we focused on how she went from behind-the-scenes power woman to forward-facing voice of freedom from alcohol.

And Allison did it all by giving first. This means that when she locates a podcast she wants to be on, she listens to episodes in the car while sending herself voice notes about how she thinks she could provide something as a guest. She also sends bookers handwritten notes, makes personal videos and, in short, thinks of how she can be of service. As you can imagine, her success rate for getting booked is quite high.

In this episode, she breaks down the giving-first mentality, including a not-to-be-missed method for getting people to actually open your book and not just let it sit on the shelf.

Enjoy this delightful strategy...and delightful woman.

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How to Get a Journalist's Attention with HARO Creator Peter Shankman

Cameron Herold on Generating Free PR and Creating a Vivid Vision for Your Book

Talking About Your Book on TV and Podcasts with Media Coach Susan Harrow

CLICK ON ANY OF THE LINKS BELOW TO HEAR THIS EPISODE OR CLICK HERE TO GET THE POD ON ANY PLATFORM   

 

Where Experts Say Publishing is Heading in 2023

 

The new podcast name debuts with a first-of-its-kind (at least for me) episode: a compilation of thoughts from the different publishing experts who have been on the show.

I was able to get both recorded and written thoughts from a bunch of my favorites, including Dave Chesson, Roseanne Cheng, Amber Vilhauer, Shelby Leigh, Derek Murphy and more. And they talked about everything from social media to AI to taking success into your own hands to so much more.

Give it a listen and get ahead of everything that 2023 has in store for us.

RELATED EPISODES:  

The Debut of Launch Pad with Dave Chesson

Derek Murphy on How to Actually Make Money From Book Sales

How Authors Can Master TikTok with BookTok Sensation Shelby Leigh

Publishing in the Time of Cancel Culture with Tony Lyons

What Your Non-Fiction Book Needs with Elizabeth Lyons

Why Authors Should Be Using Pinterest with Roseanne Cheng

Making an NFT Out of Your Book With Lee Richter

Selling Your Book as a Series of NFTs with Elle Griffin

TRANSCRIPT:

So this is a really amazing episode because it is a gathering of information. So this is my collection of what's to come in publishing in 2023. What are the experts think because God knows I can't give you as good an answer if it's just me. So I gathered some of the biggest in the business and got them to give me their predictions. Some of them recorded, some of them I'm going to summarize because they wrote them up.

And these experts include Dave Chesson from Kindlepreneur. Roseanne Cheng from Evergreen Authors, Derek Murphy from Creative, creative, I can never say his company name Creativindie, writing coach and coach trainer Jenny Nash, Amber Vilhauer from NGNG, BookTok sensation Shelby Leigh, publisher Elizabeth Lyons and Skyhorse publishing CEO Tony Lyons, these have all been guests on the show, or they're going to be guests on the show.

So let's start with one where I can roll the audio, by the way, long wanted to say roll the audio. So you'll hear me say it a few times. Dave Chesson, who I just mentioned, is a book marketer. But he's so much more than that. He is truly the king of Indie publishing, he created Kindlepreneur, publisher rocket software, which I recommend to everybody. It's all about finding keywords and categories. He also recently launched Atticus layout software. And he was my first guest when I converted this podcast into a podcast about publishing. So here's what Dave Chesson had to say.

Dave Chesson: When self-publishing first got started, authors really didn't have many tools at their disposal. Matter of fact, Kindle Direct Publishing’s dashboard was incredibly terrible at reporting any legitimate data. And so this left authors with a lot of questions. However, though, fast forward to today, and self-published authors, as well as publishing authors have been getting access to more data, more tools and capabilities that allow them to make smarter decisions as we move forward. So as we go into 2023, I see self-published authors, as well as published authors, having access to more data, as well as more capabilities and not have to rely as much on companies and publishing companies to take that work, or not having to rely on kind of guesswork and sort of facing against some of the giants out there in the industry. And so I see this great equalizer occurring, and this has been happening year over year.

Anna David: Now, obviously, as someone who is constantly preaching the choir about how thrilled I am about the democratization of publishing, I love that one. So now let's go to Amber Vilhauer. Amber is the founder of NGNG, which stands for No Guts, No Glory, which helps authors to launch successful books by leveraging their network and I recently connected with her. I'm blown away by her strategies,  her organization, her brilliance, I am just in the process of soaking up all of her knowledge. And now I'm going to give you some of her knowledge about what's coming in 2023.

Amber Vilhauer: Between publishing house delays and lack of their marketing support, I believe more authors will start to wake up to their responsibility, and opportunity, to turn their book into something more than just a product. What I mean is, more authors will seek out advice from people like myself and your other guests on this episode, to learn about how to grow their online platform and sales, by using their book is part of the equation, but maybe not put so much pressure on themselves to sell a million copies. The real opportunity is, what can I do with my book to generate millions and impact millions without necessarily having to sell a million books. And this is from Amber Vilhauer.

Anna David: Again, preaching exactly what I believe. So now let's go to Derek Murphy. Derek is one of a kind. He has a PhD in comparative literature. He's a book cover designer, he's an author in multiple genres, and he has incredible courses and services. He helps people with everything from marketing to editing to publishing. And we I met him in person at the World Domination Summit in Portland a few years ago and I was immediately struck as I'm sure most people are by him by how unique, kind, brilliant and quirky he is. So let's roll tape on Derek's predictions.

Derek Murphy: I think 2023 is going to be the year of AI. There's already a lot of art generators. And now there's GPT 3, which is a text generator. A lot of these tools are going to be starting to be fully available, even though there's a lot of controversy over them. Microsoft and Canva have designed tools now that generate images and they're also incorporating text generator. Canva just kind of launched that today. These are going to start to appear as WordPress plugins or front facing tools on websites that are going to be free or easy to use. This also applies to AI voices for audiobooks, which are almost good enough, but not quite yet. And then the final thing is that I think a lot of book recommendation sites are going to get a lot smarter. Amazon is already getting rid of keywords and categories, I think. The USA Today bestselling list just kind of shut down because they fired the person in charge of that, I think there's going to be new ways to that Amazon is going to recommend books to readers, without you being able to gain the system quite as much with keywords and stuff. So building your email list, having your own platform of actual fans is going to help. There's also going to be a lot of tools that help you to produce more content better and especially like editing tools and revising, I think that process is going to get a lot easier.

Anna David: So that was fascinating to me this keywords and categories getting rid of I will dig more into that so I can let you guys know what that's about. And the USA Today list dismantling itself happened as of this recording the day Derek recorded this, which is yesterday, and kind of blew my mind. I'll find out more about that.

I mean that if you don't know what I'm talking about, basically, next to the New York Times list, the Wall Street Journal list and the USA Today list are the most important bestseller lists. And as of yesterday, which is December 12th of 2022 they got rid of the USA Today got rid of the editor of it, which means they got rid of the list at least temporarily. All sounds very, very weird. Since it was something that was so important.

In terms of what he said about AI...this also feels like as I'm recording this, like, it has been a huge couple of weeks for AI. This app Lensa came out and we all went crazy, giving up our faces to the cloud or whatever so that we could make ourselves look like superheroes and like really airbrushed and great. I not only did my own, but I did it for my mom and my boyfriend giving their faces over to the facial recognition software, but they love me, so it's fine.

And I've recently just discovered an AI software called Quick Write. And it comes from the creator of Author Lab, which is one of my favorites.

Author Lab is where we make these book mockups where you can take the cover and make it three dimensional, you can make Spiderman holding the cover, you can do anything you want, a couple of kissing, holding your book cover. And I love that software so much that, and I recommend it, and I'm an affiliate for it.

When I heard from him that he had this new AI software Quick Write I immediately started trying it out. And it is kind of blowing my mind. Now a lot of people talk about how AI is going to decimate the creative community. I don't think so. Because there is always skill and talent is always important. Is it going to make our jobs easier? Yeah.

So I just tried it out for blog posts, and I just put in, you know, different topics, it spit out outlines and concepts and really well written text, which I should be alarmed by but, but I'm not. I mean, I'm equally rejoicing and cringing over it.

So Derek is always on the cutting edge. So I would listen to what he thinks is going to happen there.

Now let's get into the stuff I gathered from people who didn't record things but just told me them. This next one is from Roseanne Cheng. She's the co-founder of Evergreen Authors. She's also an author, a book marketer, a book publisher, a writing coach, she's a Pinterest expert. I interviewed her about how authors can use Pinterest, she's wonderful. These are her predictions.

She thinks straight to audio books are gonna be a thing. And what she said to me is, there's so many authors who struggle with the amount of work, time and money it takes to put together a book. And for thought leaders and comedians or anyone else who kind of has a performance aspect to their writing.

She says I think we're going to have more people take advantage of the booming audiobook market and skip paper books altogether.

A few years ago, I heard about this, and I stopped hearing about it. I know Macmillan audio did those Grammar Girl's Quick and Dirty Tips. First as an audiobook before it appeared in print. I know Cat Marnell, the author of that wonderful, hilarious book, How to Murder Your Life, she released an audio only book called Self-Tanner for the Soul. So I'm very curious if if this is going to become a thing again.

Roseanne also talked about TikTok and she predicted many authors will actually abandon their other social media accounts to put all their energy on TikTok and she said I don't recommend this, I just predict it. And in a second, I'm going to tell you what BookTok sensation Shelby Leigh predicts because it's very much related.

Roseanne also predicts that NFTs exclusive content and premium access is going to be more of a thing. And her her reasoning is that it takes more than a great book to catch people's attentions. And what catches people's attention is the feeling of exclusivity. And many authors are including private coaching and bonus content as a way of attracting and keeping readers. And I agree with her, I do, but

I do think, you know, NFTs in 2022, we got so excited and then we got so over it. I released two episodes about it because I wanted to learn more about it, episodes with Lee Richter and Elle Griffin, and those episodes did very well. So I know you guys are interested in it too.

But I think the and I made an NFT that nobody bid on, hey, it's still available...I think the barrier to entry with crypto and NFTs is still very high. I tried diligently to set up accounts and get into that world and I was semi successful. I'm reasonably tech savvy, and I actually had help from people. And I still couldn't really do it.

So I was thinking about doing this NFT Party Girl where you can be up for a part in the movie that's going to be shot next year. And I realized that my audience that's you guys just wasn't into the web three enough for it to be worth my energy and all of those things. So but what I do think will happen is, you know, I could release that as a special offer, this Party Girl exclusive, you can be in the movie, you can get this, you can get that, without it being an NFT. Just being something you can buy.

So I do think I agree with Roseanne that stuff is going to happen. And she talks about authenticity and how in the last few years authenticity people who speak to their audiences real, honest, relatable people are creating trust and and how important that is. So I don't know kind of, I guess like the anti Rachel Hollis like what Rachel Hollis purported to be before, kind of revealing herself to not be that. And then she talked about targeted advertising. She's someone who also really understands Amazon ads. And so she thinks that's only going to get more important.

And now let's talk about Shelby Leigh, who is a what she told me she's a poet and a mental health advocate, and a BookTok sensation. And she also has a course very reasonably priced course on how authors can do BookTok, she has sold over 40,000 copies of her books through TikTok, one video alone, she sold 7,000 copies. So what she has to say is, is of course, about TikTok and Instagram, she's also big on Instagram. And she said, I think publishers are going to need to think about direct sales through social media platforms. As Instagram shop continues to grow and TikTok shop is being tested, the ability for readers to buy books directly from their favorite authors and platforms in the app will be a very real and interested really interesting and necessary shift. So heads up on that.

Then we have Jennie Nash, who is the author of 11 books, the founder of Author Accelerator, she's helped clients land agents, six figure book deals, books have made the New York Times and Wall Street Journal bestseller lists. And she says, she thinks more and more writers will come to see that the burden is on them to get their projects into publishable shape, and market their work. Which in my experience has been true for a long time, but people didn't know it until recently. She thinks podcasts are going to continue to be huge, and that and she says she hopes Twitter will survive. Maybe it has survived and is thriving again, by the time you hear this, post Elon Musk acquisition. But she did say it was a fantastic place to learn about publishing news and meet other people in the industry.

And Elizabeth Lyons predicts that more people will turn to hybrid publishers, hooray, and that the USA Today bestseller list will be retired.

Tony Lyons, who is the founder of Skyhorse Publishing talked—this is really more from the publisher’s perspective than the authors—but he talked about how the past two years have been really strong for backlist titles. And it's not going to be as true. So he says, stick with your long-term publishing plans, and goals. And don't take any tough times personally, which I think is always good advice.

So the conclusion of this episode about predictions for 2023 is from BookTok and AI to plummeting black backlist and best seller lists disappearing. The most important things are authors doing what they can for themselves and having an amazing business setup so you can make it through all the inevitable changes coming. So that is it. 2023 predictions. Fabulous guys. I hope you liked this show and I will see you next time.

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How to Make Writing (or Finishing) Your Book Your NY's Resolution

 

This solo episode is all about how you can make writing (or finishing) your book your New Year's Resolution.

The main points are:

Give yourself a month in 2023 your first draft will be done
Give yourself a daily (or weekly) page count
Have accountability
Build your audience
Don't set yourself up for failure
Get clear on your "why"
Set up small goals along the way

Listen to get all the deets!

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Writing a Book in Public with Jesse J. Anderson

How to Write a Book Everyone Recommends with Rob Fitzpatrick

Why All Authors Need to Start Their Newsletter List NOW with Holly Darling

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Why Authors Should Be Using Pinterest with Roseanne Cheng

 

Roseanne Cheng is the author of six books, including The Evergreen Author: Master the Art of Book Marketing and Portable Magic: How to Write and Publish a Great Book. The co-founder of Evergreen Authors—an online school that helps authors figure out the business of being a writer—she is also a Pinterest Queen. Or so I have named her.

In this episode, she broke down why Pinterest is the mostly-undiscovered platform for book promotion, how to create boards that attract the readers you want, whether you should have a page for yourself as an author or each of your books and so much more.

Plus she and her co-founder offer a FREE course on Pinterest that you can get here.

How helpful is this? Well, it's about to make me break my Pinterest cherry (will let you know how that works out).

It's all in this episode! Enjoy.

ALSO! HEY! YOU KNOW THAT AMAZING PODCAST THAT I MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE—FREE TIIME WITH JENNY BLAKE? YOU CAN LISTEN TO IT ON ANY OF THE PLATFORMS HERE.

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TRANSCRIPT:

 

Anna David: Okay, let's talk Pinterest. So you said it blows people's minds when you talk about how useful Pinterest can be for an author. Tell me what you mean. 

Roseanne: Yeah, so Pinterest. Here's the thing about Pinterest. People think that it is a social media site. They think their people are going on there to interact with other people, or to maybe just find recipes here or there. What and that's, that is only partially true. What Pinterest really is, is a search engine, just like Google is a search engine. And Amazon is a search engine, right? So people go to Pinterest to solve a certain problem, or to look at beautiful pictures of meals they want to make or places they want to go, or whatever the case may be. Pinterest for authors is a perfect marriage. Because if you are an author, you are hopefully, in possession of a book with a beautiful cover something that is very eye catching, I don't care what your genre is, you need to have a great book cover, everybody knows that. So you already have something very visual. That's really important for Pinterest. And then as the bigger added bonus, Pinterest allows you to create different boards that are associated with your author, career, whatever that business is, fiction, nonfiction, doesn't matter. So I've had authors who, maybe they wrote a memoir about traveling to Italy. And they've got a board that is, you know, that shows their favorite Italy memoirs. And their book is obviously among those things that are pinned, but then maybe they have another board that's like, favorite Italian recipes, favorite places to visit in Italy, favorite travel agents in Italy. That's kind of how Pinterest works. It's like this bonus website for authors. So they can use this to attract people who are already looking into the genre of what they're writing about through these different pins. Brilliant. And it's it's free, it's easy to use, it's fun to use. It's such an amazing resource for authors if they use it well. 

Anna David: So question, if you say have a beautiful cover, but nothing else associated with your book is going to make an attractive photo. Is it still useful?

Roseanne: Absolutely. Yep. So here's the other thing about Pinterest that's amazing. When you take time on Pinterest, you see that a lot of the pins that go viral or get shared a lot are pins that are connected to a blog post. Your goal as an author is on Pinterest in particular is to use those pins to lead people to wherever you want them to purchase your book. Maybe it's an Amazon site, maybe it's your website. So many authors I've worked with over the years have these beautiful websites with these blogs that they've written for years and years. And then they look at their analytics. And nobody is reading these beautiful blog posts that they have. However, if you go to Pinterest, and you create a pin, so the graphic on Pinterest is really specific, they want it to be a specific size. If you have a Canva account, you can easily make a Pinterest graphic, and make let's use that Italian author, for example. Because clearly I need a vacation. But let's say I have a website. And I have this blog about all of my travels in Italy. And one of my posts is my five favorite things to pack when I travel to Italy. And I have this post on my blog, I create a pin worthy graphic. So a beautiful graphic in Canva. I put that pin on Pinterest so that is the image. And then when somebody sees that and goes, oh, I would love to see the five things that I should pack when I go to Italy clicks on that pin. And it might not lead to a conversion to purchase your book, but it might lead somebody to your website in general where they're going to follow you on other places, and maybe contact you about speaking to their book club or whatever the case may be. There's so the opportunities on Pinterest are endless. And when authors get really creative about how to use the platform, it's really fun.

Anna David: Can you think I'm sure it must depend, but do you think it's better to link to your Amazon page where somewhere where they can when people can purchase the book directly or your own website? Or your newsletters. Yeah.

Roseanne: Yep, it depends on the pin. And so and you know, a lot of authors now are dabbling in different spaces. So maybe their book is available on Etsy. And maybe it's available on Amazon. And maybe it's available on their website. You can have as many pins as you want, so you can create five different pins leading to different places and see which one converts the best. And then you’ll know.

Anna David: Okay, stop the presses. What do you mean book on Etsy? People sell their books on Etsy? Oh, yeah. Tell me about that.

Roseanne: Yeah, people do. I mean, if you have a gift book, and you wrap it, you know, Etsy is all about beautiful, handmade gifts, right. And so if your book would match with a handmade item, I know, Etsy sells digital products, too. So yeah, it's very possible to sell on Etsy if you want to.

Anna David: So you could sell your ebook. Oh, but I guess, yeah, and your regular book, or your regular book. But if you're gonna sell your regular book, it should have something with it.

Roseanne: That's the Etsy platform. Yeah. I mean, you know, it should be beautifully packaged, or you know, there's, there's an expectation when you purchase on Etsy, that it's going to be a gift and not just show up in an Amazon bag. You know what I mean? But yeah, but authors use Etsy, too. So that's the thing about Pinterest, though, is that you can lead people, wherever you want. Pinterest for me, one of my books is written for teachers. And I know, from Pinterest that teachers are on Pinterest all the time. And I know, as an educator, I was on Pinterest all the time. So I would put that book, or pins that would lead people to that book on Pinterest, and I sold it all over the place. Sometimes on Amazon, sometimes on Teachers Pay Teachers, sometimes for my website, you know, the pins speak for themselves.

Anna David: And if you sell on Etsy, you're gonna have the contact information of the person who bought it, as opposed to if you sell it on Amazon. 

Roseanne: This is true. Yeah, I mean, you know that every platform has its pros and cons, right. So Etsy is, you know, there's, there's, there could be some post office time, and some people don't want that. So you have to, you know, obviously, you know, we say at Evergreen Authors all the time, the goal isn't to be everywhere, all at once. Choose the platforms that work best for you. And for some authors, they're like, Etsy is great. And some authors are like, meh, I'm just gonna focus on Amazon. And that's fine.

Anna David: So, Pinterest. Now what happened when I went to your webinar was I think I begged you guys to do my Pinterest for me. And you basically were like, we can't do that. But we can teach you how to do it. Is that still true?

Roseanne: Well, sort of. So we, we don't really we used to do like quarterly webinars where we would, you know, people would come in and we could kind of walk them through how to set up their Pinterest page, we used to do these kinds of Pinterest takeovers for authors. We don't do them anymore, just because we are just sort of merged into different parts of the business. But we still tell authors all the time, that you want to take advantage of any place that looks like a bonus website for you. Pinterest is one, your Amazon Author Page is one, you know, it's always such a missed opportunity. And you don't have to look any further. You don't need to hire somebody like me to create your Pinterest page for you. Go to Pinterest and spend some time on the platform. Find people who are writing in your genre, or just not writing in your genre, it doesn't matter. As a teacher, I used to learn from people who taught outside of my specific course all the time. Find people who write in a totally different genre and see all the ways that they're using Pinterest. I worked with a fiction author who was really awesome on Pinterest for a long time. And she had all these different boards of things that were just very tangentially related to this fantasy world that she had made. So she had these, you know, a board that was dedicated to, you know, maps of, you know, this kingdom that she had made. And then another board that was, it was something about like aromatherapy connected to all of her characters. I mean, people get so creative on that platform. And that's specifically why creative people should be using it. Because they're already there that people are hungry for that. And I will say that the caveat that I want to add here and this is true for any platform that authors are using, is you can't you have to know how it works. So the word so if anybody's listening to this, and they're thinking to themselves, Oh, I'm just going to hurry up and get an account on Etsy on Pinterest, and just start pinning stuff because Roseanne said that I should probably do that. That's not a great way to use the platform. That's like going on to Amazon and pressing two buttons and running some ads. And then being shocked when those ads, don't convert to sales. Spend some time on the platform, see how other authors are using it, see how comfortable you are on it, see if it's a place where you want to be and where you would enjoy spending time. And then be strategic about your time that you spend on there, we have found that part of that strategy is understanding what the platform is doing. So Pinterest, especially over the last couple of years has really changed. When it first started, it was just stagnant pins. Now, they really reward pins that have video content, they have story pins, pins that are tutorials, if you look at any cookbook author who has pins, you can see the video elements in there. So what you really want to do is kind of follow Pinterest, look at the website itself and look at the sorts of pins that they're promoting. Your analytics are there for you to look at at anytime. So you know, they they're going to reward users, users who are using it to its fullest potential.

Anna David: Now, out of the okay, so with videos, could you post the same ones that you're posting as reels on Instagram? Or if you're posting shorts on YouTube? Is that a good strategy?

Roseanne: Absolutely.

Anna David: Okay. Yeah, because different people are everywhere.

Roseanne: Pinterest is for evergreen content. So if you have if you have a story, or a YouTube video that is very specific to something timely, like this is just happening just today, then I wouldn't put it on Pinterest. But if it's something that is evergreen, absolutely.

Anna David: So into obviously, maybe this isn't true, but I'm gonna say different genres are going to work better than others, like a business book may not work as well on Pinterest. Correct or not correct?

Roseanne: Not correct.

Anna David: Not correct?

Roseanne: Yeah, not correct. I would say because think about it this way. Say you wrote a book that is and the last time I checked, Pinterest was pretty female dominated. So it's mainly females that are using the platform. Let's say I wrote a business book for female entrepreneurs. And I go to Pinterest. And again, it's a search engine. And I'm I go in the search bar, and I go, um, business tips for women. And I see all of these beautiful pins that link to five things that all women should know before they start a business. 10 budget friendly ways to start your business. Five books that changed my life before I started my business. That is going to be incredible for you as a business author. So you know, it's it's a matter of yeah, I mean, I'm sure there's some stuff that wouldn't work well on Pinterest. But if you get creative, you can probably find an angle there.

Anna David: And do you recommend it over the other platforms? Because people don't necessarily think of it first.

Roseanne: Um, I wouldn't say that. The thing with Pinterest that we tell authors all the time, is that it's very different. It's a very unique platform. And they like it that way. Pinterest does not want to be the next Facebook or Instagram. They might borrow ideas for reels and stuff and stories. But there's a reason that their graphics are that very specific size. It's because they want you to spend more time on their platform. So I would say that it's not. It's not social media. There's a social component to it. I guess, because you're sharing you can. It's kind of convoluted, but you can message people and make comments. But it's in no way comparable to something like Facebook, or Instagram or TikTok or anything like that. In terms of connection. It's what I would say is that it's more comparable to Amazon, because again, it's a search bar. It's a search engine that you want to be part of.

Anna David: Yeah, Amazon is the third largest search engine after YouTube and Google I wonder, I wonder where Pinterest lies on that. But now an author, does it make more sense for an author to do an author page or to do specific pages for their different books? If they have more than one book?

Roseanne: I would do an author page because I feel as though I mean, truthfully, we're all just too busy to manage too many different pages, right? It's like I say the same thing with the author website, too. If you're writing in two different jobs, just do one. Yeah, like own it all. You know what I mean? Like that's, it's great. And then that way you can really focus on growing your audience there. And again, this is the brilliance of Pinterest is that if you let's say you're an author who's writing in two vastly different genres, you can have different boards that are associated with those genres. And, and the pins are going to lead the right people to the board that you're talking about you, you won't have to worry about business authors coming to your fantasy page, as long as your pins are being labeled appropriately, which they should be. So yeah, I mean, I would just say one, do one really well, you know, and focus on that.

Anna David: And what's, what are tips for growth on Pinterest?

Roseanne: So Pinterest wants you to use the platform, it's the same on any other platform. They want you on there as much as possible, they want you pinning and repinning. The thing that makes Pinterest really special. And I think most social media, you know, Facebook will say that they're like this as well, but they are looking for quality pins all the time. So that means that your visuals need to be beautiful. Not just okay. But beautiful. There's been many authors who have come to us and said, wait, I don't understand why my Pinterest page is not doing anything. I'm not getting any traction. And I look at their boards. And it's like, there's, there's no, there's dead links everywhere. There's really bad images, or maybe like really unprofessional looking images. It's more important to have beautiful imagery on Pinterest probably than any other platform, if you're going to be creating kind of a bonus website there. And they're going to reward that. They're going they see those beautiful pins and want to push those up in the algorithm too. The thing that's difficult about Pinterest is that, you know, like, you know, there's kind of common wisdom around say like a Facebook or Instagram, Twitter, you're supposed to be tweeting or, you know, posting a few times a week, right, at least. I would say on Pinterest, they want you to be posting a whole lot. So the beautiful thing is, is that you can repin and repost you don't have to continually make new blog posts or continually make new pins. And there are there are apps that can help you. There's one called Tailwind that can help repin you know have pins pin once and then repin several times throughout the day. But I would say that's probably the biggest challenge on Pinterest is to make sure you're actually using the platform, the worst thing you can do is go on there, create a beautiful site, create some boards, and then never login again.

Anna David: Would you say you, do you have to do it every day?

Roseanne: Pin every day?

Anna David: Yeah, it's ideal.

Roseanne: It is. Yeah. And just like every other platform, you want to take a look and see when Pinterest is being used most actively. I remember when I first started using Pinterest, this might not still be true. But I remember seeing that, you know, Saturday mornings were really great time for Pinterest. Because think about it. That's when people are scrolling through their phones, maybe looking for dinner for that night. They're dreaming about their next trip to Italy or whatever the case may be. So I would spend my time Saturday morning I would literally just carve out I'm going to spend 30 minutes on Pinterest every Saturday morning.

Anna David: But you have to post every day, right?

Roseanne: Well, yeah, but then I would yeah, but I used an app called Tailwind to actually schedule my pins pins throughout the week.

Anna David: Okay. Okay. But make sure.

Roseanne: It's possible to do that. But again, you know, I feel like it's very difficult to start scheduling pins without actually spending some time on the platform first and doing it manually. And yes, you want to do it a few times a day. 

Anna David: And you mentioned virality. I think most people including me didn't know things could go viral on Pinterest, but they can.

Roseanne: They can. Absolutely they can yeah.

Anna David: What sorts of things or is it just somewhat random like that Tiktok?

Roseanne: It's I know, I mean, it's always kind of a guessing game when it comes to these sorts of things. But I have found that it's the pins that are like listicles. So it's like the top 10 XYZ things. We have a couple of blog posts on Evergreen Authors that we continually repin on Pinterest that do really well. Just because we we can see it through the analytics. Anything timely is going to be good. So if you have a book that's perfect for the holidays, now's a really great time to start thinking about setting those holiday pins. But yeah, I mean, it's it's moderately random, but the thing is, we always want to focus on quality over quantity. So that's that for me, that's the most important thing.

Anna David: Um, okay, hey, um, what I was gonna ask me is about virality. So have you had pins go viral for you or your clients?

Roseanne: Yeah, absolutely, yeah, we've had several hit. And you know, it's like the word viral is sort of a, it's not like we're, you know, on the nightly news that night, but we've had several pins with that within the first hour or so have had 5000 views.

Anna David: Yeah.

Roseanne: Which is fantastic. It's way better than you could get on a platform like Facebook, without paying for it. Do you know what I mean?

Anna David: Yeah, and I when I say viral I this expression, VFM viral for me. You know, like

Roseanne: I love it.

Anna David: You rather than being like it has to have a million, like, what is a lot more than you normally get is a good way to think about it. Um, so if people, you have the Pinterest course, if people want to learn from you, what should they do?

Roseanne: So we, what we suggest, and this is our Pinterest webinar is a free webinar that we put on our Evergreen Authors site. So if anybody's listening to this, go to evergreenauthors.com and you will find two free videos, one on Amazon advertising and one on Pinterest, watch that thing in its entirety. And get a sense of whether or not Pinterest is right for you. We you know, I we always find that Pinterest is like the gift that we give people who come to Evergreen Authors, because our whole philosophy is writing a book is a lot of work and selling it is it can feel really hard and terrible. But it shouldn't, you should feel joyful to bring to put your book out there. And if you're doing anything to market your book that feels like a waste of time, like you're selling your soul, that you hate it, then don't do it. Please like I'm begging you, don't do it. Find a way to connect with people that's really joyful for you. And for some authors that we've worked with, Pinterest is that thing, and they never even thought about using it. And so it's worthwhile to just look into it. If you watch the webinar, and you're like, no, it's not for me, I promise there's other ways that you can find your joy in marketing. And that's what we do at Evergreen Authors.

Anna David: And so is there a paid, isn't there a paid course that you offer after the webinar? No,

Roseanne: No, just a gift.

Anna David: Just a gift?

Roseanne: Just a gift, yeah.

Anna David: So tell me more about Evergreen and what you do offer?

Roseanne: Yeah, so at Evergreen Authors, we are all about a sustainable writing career for authors, not just like the great launch, and then suddenly you can't sell books. We have been in this business for a long time. We're authors ourselves. So all about having authors figure out one or two things that bring them joy, and doing those two things really well. And having those things convert to sales. We want realistic goals. We're not interested in gaming any systems, we're not interested in any sort of weird, like, if you follow me, I'll follow you back like that. To me, that is a huge waste of time, and doesn't really help anybody sell books or get any messages across. So we're all about one or two things that work really well. For us. We, you know, we've been writing for a really long time, we've written a lot of books, I'm not super interested in being famous, I don't need to be, you know, stopped on the street, like Stephen King would be. So I'm really focused on just making sure that when people go to those search engine sites like Amazon, or Pinterest, that they see my book when they when they're looking for its content, you know, like it says, if my book is cool for you, great. Go ahead, buy it. If not, that's cool, too. I go on to the next thing. That's fine. And so we do that through teaching people how to use targeted ads on on Amazon. We have a course called Algorithm Alchemy that teaches how to run ads on Amazon through pay per click keywords. I will say that authors who have taken that course have used that same knowledge to run ads on Pinterest. We just don't have a course around it. But the same sort of lessons apply where you know, it's like a it's a pay per click kind of thing. And it's it's again, it's about matchmaking your ideal reader with your book, you know, no, stop trying to sell your book to everybody just sell it to the people who are already searching for the content. They're happy, you're happy and you have a sustainable career instead of constantly chasing the next sale.

Anna David: And so is it it's book marketing, would you that's how that's how it is and people can hire you or or do the Amazon course.

Roseanne: Yeah, usually. So we don't we we are strictly courses now. So we don't take on other people's marketing campaigns. We're asked that pretty much on a daily basis at Evergreen Authors. People have offered us quite a bit of money to take on their campaigns for them, you know that. And, and we could probably make a lot more money if we did that. But truthfully, we feel so strongly that when people understand how the marketing work is done, it is so much more beneficial for them in the long run. Yeah, when I when I learned how Amazon ads worked, and let me just be brutally honest, right now, I am the least technical person you have ever met in your life. When Josie my wonderful business partner came to me and was like, I'm going to teach you how to do Amazon ads. I said, absolutely not. I don't do that. I go do school visits. And that's it. And I sell it, you know, it's, and she was like, well, you're exhausted. And maybe just try this one time. And so she taught me through her course, how easy it was. And then when I discovered that I could do it, it meant that truly anybody could do it. And so that's how we teach people how to do this.

Anna David: Um, yeah, I will say long time ago, I did Dave Chesson course on it. And I just felt, and I love everything he does. And I felt thoroughly confused. And so not for me. So maybe I'm just less technical than you. But there's, you know, like, as to your point, it's like, there's only so many things each of us can do. I'm a big fan right now of, you know, for a long time, people said, oh, just just do one platform, forget about the others. And now that things are changing so quickly, I'm telling people do a little bit all the time, just like make sure every week you're posting everywhere. That's what I say, it's not ideal, but it's the reality. I'm just seeing, you know, people's accounts cancelled and billionaires buying platforms,

Roseanne: Correct

Anna David: Overnight. And, you know, I just think that's that's how it is right now.

Roseanne: I think you that's very wise advice, particularly in this time that we're living in. I will add, though, that I think that the best way that authors can keep their sanity around that, is to make sure that everything they post also has a home on their website. So that website is not going to go anywhere. So maybe if you have you know, I mean, I see people using TikTok all the time, I don't use TikTok as an author, I probably wouldn't recommend it for authors. But if you want to be on there, fab, go for it. Save your videos, though, save them somewhere, and maybe make a reel on your website, that is just those same videos that you're posting, because you don't know what's going to happen to that platform.

Anna David: I know that is genius. So I mean, you could theoretically just have a page on your website with every single video you've ever posted on Instagram, or TikTok.

Roseanne: And those would make amazing pins, by the way.

Anna David: And they'd make amazing pins. Oh my God, so many takeaways. So I will definitely link in the show notes to the free Pinterest course and all the other things. Is that the best place for people to find you, what if they want to know more?

Roseanne: Evergreenauthors.com is the place to go. So you will find free stuff, you'll find some paid stuff, you'll find some courses on there. Pretty much every author who comes to us for marketing help finds something on Evergreen Authors that is going to help inspire them. And if not, that's cool, too. We just hope that you see our website and or at least even as a creative person, take our message that you don't, the marketing work does not have to be a chore. Anybody who's telling you that is probably just trying to sell you something. It's not that horrible, as long as you get really honest about your goals and expectations. And you just focus accordingly and keep your eye on quality over quantity. 

Anna David: And remember very well said, but also remember, a small interactive audience is worth more than a large audience who doesn't care any day.

Roseanne: I couldn't agree more. Yeah.

Anna David: It’s not about the numbers.

Roseanne: It's not, and this is where it's tough in the social media days is because you know, we really do equate likes and comments and follows as success. For me as an author, that's not success. For me, it's book sales. For me, it's and this just happened yesterday, I got an email from a random person who picked up my book. I have a book called The Evergreen Author. And she read it and said she had been terrified of marketing her book she it was coming out she was she was ready to pull the plug on the whole process because she was so scared of it. But my book had freed her, it made her feel like she could just do a couple things do them well and and not worry about keeping up with all the other fluff out there and all the voices telling her she has to be everywhere in every doing all the things. That for me is success. To continually get that feedback is what I'm looking for. Yeah.

Anna David: Yep. Well, Roseanne, thank you so much. I really appreciate is there anything you want to add that I didn't ask you?

Roseanne: No, I just think you're fantastic. Thank you so much for all of your questions.

Anna David: This was a total delight. I knew it would be. You guys, thank you for listening. I will see you.

CLICK ON ANY OF THE LINKS BELOW TO HEAR THIS EPISODE OR CLICK HERE TO GET THE POD ON ANY PLATFORM   

 

How Authors Can Master TikTok with BookTok Sensation Shelby Leigh

 

If you hear words (but are they words really?) like "TikTok" and "BookTok" and go, "Ugh" or "I'm too late" or "I'm too old" or anything of the sort, this episode is for you.

Shelby Leigh got into the TikTok game relatively late and, in under two years, has sold 40,000 books as a result of her videos (one video in particular sold roughly 7000 copies!) This success has led the poet and mental health advocate not only to traditional publishing deals but also to a career as a book marketer.

And she makes the whole thing sound so DO-able! In this episode, she breaks down ways to hook TikTok scrollers, what TikTok "likes," how to grow your account to sell books and why BookTok truly can work for any book genre out there (yes, even yours).

Oh, and she sells products (including a $23 TikTok for Authors course) and consults with authors about growing their TikTok accounts. Go to her site to get in on all of it (and check out her TikTok here). Also! Enjoy our conversation, which provides a whole bunch of highly implementable tips and techniques.

RELATED EPISODES:      

Turning Online Readers Into Book Readers with Zara Barrie and Dayna Troisi

Brianne Davis on Launching a Book on Sex and Love Addiction

 
TRANSCRIPT:

Anna David: Okay, so you Shelby know more about TikTok as an author than anyone I've ever talked to no pressure. But I am so excited to hear all the things you know.

Shelby Leigh: I'm excited to share them.

Anna David: So tell me, how did you get started on TikTok? In the beginning?

Shelby Leigh: Yeah, so I firstly have a have a social media background. I've always loved social media, and marketing. That's what I studied in college. And so whenever I was hearing more and more about TikTok, I wasn't like the first person to be on it. But I was fairly early, I think it was the end of 2019, that I started experimenting with it, but then 2020 that I dove into it, and like created my author, account and all of that. So it was early 2020, that does not mean you are too late that you can't grow, I had my biggest growth period this year. So it is not too late to get on the platform and start using it as an author. But that is when I decided to get started was in 2020. And I knew some other authors in my genre, which is like mental health and the poetry space, who were also using it. And so we all were kind of on it at the same time and seeing a lot of success with sales. So I've stuck with it since then, and started teaching it to other authors.

Anna David: So were you all supporting each other? Or is TikTok not really a platform where that works as well?

Shelby Leigh: No, we definitely support each other. I was following all of those people who I knew were on the platform, and we were engaging with each other. And I think as it's grown, there's been more and more people on the platform. I wouldn't say we do it as often as we did in the beginning, when we were trying to find a community and trying to find our audience. We've all kind of established our own audiences at this point. But I definitely still will engage with those authors. And I think having that support and community in the beginning helped out a lot too.

Anna David: So do you think that TikTok can work for all genres? Are there certain genres that it's just way more effective? Well, I mean, definitely, there are certain genres, but can it work for every every author?

Shelby Leigh: I think it can work for every author, but more some genres more than others, I would say like some of the children's books are a little bit more difficult because you'll find parents on the platform. But it kind of depends on like the age range of the child and things like that. So I have worked with some children's book authors, but they haven't seen as much success as the more popular genres like fiction, sci fi, thriller, romance does very, very well. But at the same time, poetry is a very underrated genre, and nobody believes us when we say like, like poetry is blowing up on TikTok. So just because your genre might not be as popular in like mainstream, doesn't mean you can't succeed on TikTok.

Anna David: So a lot of the authors that I've worked with, and I believe, listen, I don't know this for a fact, are in the recovery memoir in the mental health kind of space is that's is it a good place for that?

Shelby Leigh: Definitely. Absolutely. Yeah. Because any niche like I'm in the mental health space as well. Your goal really, is to just target people that are going through those experiences that need those types of messages. So there's like the book tok community, which is very focused in like fiction, and romance and all of that. So you wouldn't necessarily be targeting them, you'd be targeting people who really need the messages in your book, if that makes sense. 

Anna David: And how do you do that? 

Shelby Leigh: So the key to a TikTok video is having a hook, which is like the first one to two seconds, you are hooking them into your video. And the best way to do that is by speaking directly to that person that ideal reader in your mind. So for me, that looks something like if you are going through a dark time, dot dot, dot, something like that, where like immediately someone sees it and is like, oh, I this relates to me, that works really, really well for nonfiction. For someone who writes a fiction book, a thriller book or romance book, they might start their hook with looking for a spicy romance that's really popular on TikTok, basically, like you're listing out the tropes in your book is very common to do for fiction books, things like that, to immediately hook people into what your books about, and they say, oh, I want to read this, or I want to see what happens next in this video. 

Anna David: Do you mean writing it out as the text or saying it or both?

Shelby Leigh: Both, okay, you want to write it out, you want to write it out on the screen for people that aren't listening, especially if it's in the first second. You can't get all that out in one second of speaking. So having it on the screen so people can read it quickly and decide if that's videos for them or not, or scroll through. So that's how you would kind of find your audience. So I recommend doing both or you could put a text hook and then say something different to hook people that maybe weren't interested in the text but they are interested in what you're saying.

Anna David: And what about if you have a business book is TikTok not good for that?

Shelby Leigh: It can be I think, honestly, any author should try it. Just try it for a little bit. because you will find your audience I mean, there's over 1 billion users, it's like one of the fastest growing platforms at this point, there are people on the platform who want to read your book, it's just a matter of you making this content that is tailored to them and understanding who your readers are, what they're interested in, and you'll find them and TikTok TikToks algorithm is very good. So, like, once you start making these videos, and you're interacting with people who might be your ideal audience, or you're interacting with readers who are posting about business books, like you just mentioned, or whatever your genre is, it will learn what you want, what you like, and who to show your videos to.

Anna David: And, um, what's the ideal length?

Shelby Leigh: It really varies, I say, to stick between like seven to 15 seconds, whenever you're starting out and kind of experimenting in that range, you have very short people have very short attention spans, so we got to capture them, but don't hold them too long. But at the same time, and every genre is different, and everyone will have a different experience. But I've had videos that are 40 seconds long that have been some of my top videos. So it really depends.

Anna David: So how do you get something across in seven to 15 seconds is it, you kind of hook them and you get them in the caption?

Shelby Leigh: No, not so much the caption, you really want to focus in the video, but it's very fast paced. You don't want like a 30 second quote or something like that, like you want people to be reading it quickly. I don't like when it's too fast. And I think that's a little bit frustrating, because people really have to watch it again and again and again, which some people use as like a trick, I don't necessarily recommend that. But you do still want it to be pretty fast paced. So a seven second video a 10 second video, it might be less focused on the video itself and more on the text that's overlaid on the video. So yeah, a lot of authors will do things like page flips, where they're like just flipping through their book, and they overlay a scene from the book as text. And it's seven seconds, you're intrigued by what the book is about, and you go check it out. So it can be very, very simple.

Anna David: And so, how that how exactly does that translate into book sales? Is it through the link that you have on your profile page?

Shelby Leigh: So you cannot have a link until you have 1000 followers, which is a bummer for a lot of authors that are just starting out because it can take some time to get that 1000 followers. But I always recommend just putting where to get the book in the comments. So you might not see web traffic to your website, necessarily. But people will go see the name of the book and go search for themselves on Amazon. You know, it's available on a popular retailer. So whenever I have a video blow up, I'll find that I do get some traffic to my website. It's linked in my bio. But primarily people are just going directly to Amazon themselves or Barnes and Noble wherever and searching for the book themselves.

Anna David: Wow. And so when you've done a video, have you gone and looked at your book sales and seen the actual direct effect that video has had?

Shelby Leigh: Oh, yeah, yeah, whenever I have a big spike. I mean, it depends. But I've had like 7000 sales from one video blowing up.

Anna David: Are you kidding me?

Shelby Leigh: Yeah, no, I'm not kidding. It's wild.

Anna David: Oh, my God, how many views did that that one of those videos get?

Shelby Leigh: So that was my top video. And that was around 10 million views.

Anna David: Okay, so let's talk about this going viral thing? Yeah. How do you do it?

Shelby Leigh: I wish there was like a clear answer. And if there was, then we would all be going viral every day. Right? I wish I wish that there was I think the key is experimenting and sticking within that timeframe that I gave you. And really, you have to get your hooks down, you have to grip people in immediately, or you will lose attention. And I still experiment with this. I've been doing it for two and a half years. And I still experiment with this. And some of my videos completely flop. And some of them do really well. So it's really just a matter of figuring it out. And then repeating what works TikTok likes repeats. So I repeat my top videos, I'll change it up a little tiny bit. And they'll pretty much consistently go viral, which is really nice that you can repeat things.

Anna David: How long do you have to wait between when you first posted it and repeating it?

Shelby Leigh: I try not to but like less than two months or so less than I think a month will be a little bit close. But it's so nice with TikTok that new people are shown your videos every single time. So you really don't have to worry about people complaining that you're posting the same things. Again, you do want to post other things and not just the same things on repeat. But at this point two and a half years into promoting one book, I finally have a new one coming out in January. So I'll have some new content but promoting one book for two and a half years. I've had repeats of course, right. I think I've seen one comment of someone being like I've seen this before. And I'm like okay, that's fine. 

Anna David: You're like well, we all have it seven second attention span you've already forgotten. Now do you can you do the same captions even?

Shelby Leigh: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I recommend for captions like pretty short. The length has expanded for captions but again, people like something quick, if you want to share more details, I kind of put things in the comments because people who are really engaged are going to go to the comments anyway. But for captions, you can use the first line to intrigue people even further or to make them stop and watch. It's kind of like a second hook in my opinion. Or you can ask a question like, would you read this? Or what do you think happens next? And then you get comments of people answering those questions. So that's a good way to drive engagement too.

Anna David: And do you think it's important to do an actual video or posting an image with text over it? Or does the video is going to do better?

Shelby Leigh: The video is going to do better? they did recently introduce a feature kind of like an Instagram carousel, where you can upload photos, and people can swipe through them manually, which is interesting, because it is very much a video platform. I haven't seen a ton of success with that yet. So I do recommend sticking with video content. But they do make it pretty easy. If you have like, several different photos you want to use. They have different templates, they call it where you can upload the photos, and they'll put it to music and kind of make it a little bit more video esque. But videos definitely rule the platform, but you can definitely experiment with photos too.

Anna David: And so what was this video that was it seven, it was 7 million views?

Shelby Leigh: It was 10, around 10 million? Yeah.

Anna David: What did you do in that video?

Shelby Leigh: So most of my content is reading poems from my book. That's primarily again, I always recommend that authors once you find what works to stick to it. And so I've repeated that, and tried different hooks. That one was very timely, because it was January, and people are setting new year's resolutions and setting goals for themselves in terms of like self-esteem, and all of that. So I kind of played into that. And my hook was if you see this January 2022. This is a sign that you need to hear or something along those lines. And I read a poem from my book that continuously performs very well. And drives sales. So that one went wild.

Anna David: And so yes, I saw this. And so if if, like this whole this is a sign thing, that’s genius. Yes. Because people are like, I don't want to ignore a sign

Shelby Leigh: Exactly, yeah.

Anna David: But you can’t overuse it. 

Shelby Leigh: No, yeah, I don't over well, I might overuse it. Well. I’m not sure. 

Anna David: Do people, people have copied that I'm sure.

Shelby Leigh: Yeah, other people have done it. And honestly, I don't know if I was the first person to claim that either. But yeah, I think other people, especially in my genre, do it too.

Anna David: And so how often do you post?

Shelby Leigh: I try to post every day. Usually just once a day, a lot of people will tell you, you have to be posting like five times a day. I don't ever do that. And don't recommend that. I think quantity is important, but quality will always be more important. So I try to post once a day, but I definitely miss days.

Anna David: And how long do you spend on you know TikTok?

Shelby Leigh: At this point, not that long, I probably should go on it more and engage more than I do. But in the beginning, I spent a lot of time and of course, it takes time to learn a whole new platform and learn how to put together a video TikTok has really great editing tools built in. So people always kind of shy away and think that they need to have like 10 different editing apps and all these skills to make a video but at this point, it takes me like 5 10 minutes to do a video. But in the beginning, it definitely took me probably upwards of an hour to do just as I was learning it. Yeah.

Anna David: How long after you devoted yourself to it did that? Well, yeah did that video. I was kind of trying to do the math. It sounds like it was right away. Right if you started in early 2020.

Shelby Leigh: Oh, yeah. It was in January of this year that one was. Okay, so two years. yeah, yeah, but I definitely had sales. I mean, that video, I was not like my first viral video. I think it was like three or four months after I started that I had like, a big viral video. But honestly, even with smaller performing videos, I still saw an increase in sales. It just wasn't, you know, 7000 books in one week like that time, but it was you know, a little bit it was still an increase. 

Anna David: How many books overall have you sold since being on TikTok?

Shelby Leigh: It's around like, over 40,000.

Anna David: That is insane.

Shelby Leigh: Thank you.

Anna David: Um, by insane. I mean, I am so impressed. Um so Okay. Now. People have this idea. This sort of Colleen Hoover situation that it's only that like, book tok like so. So people should they consider it book tok when they're talking about their own books that aren't romance books?

Shelby Leigh: Yeah, definitely. There's a lot of different genres posted under book tok. I think what holds a lot of authors back though, is seeing things like Colleen Hoover, where it's primarily reader driven and readers are talking about those books a lot. That's okay. It doesn't mean that we're all going to have a billion readers talking about our books on TikTok, that's the dream, but you can definitely be successful as an author and promote your book and have success, whether or not readers are posting about it in book tok or not.

Anna David: And do, are hashtags important?

Shelby Leigh: They can be yeah, to kind of categorize your work. I always say like, a hashtag is not going to make or break the success of a TikTok like if people are gripped by the hook, they will watch it. My most popular videos don't have hashtags. But I still use them occasionally. So that way, when people do search for my genre, or are looking for mental health book recommendations, my videos still pop up. So that's where they kind of play a role. 

Anna David: It’s fascinating. So when did you so you have a course?

Shelby Leigh: Yeah

Anna David: On TikTok for authors?

Shelby Leigh: Yes.

Anna David: Can you tell me about the course when you created it what people get?

Shelby Leigh: Yes, I created it this summer, and it is a step by step guide. So it's a PDF versus it being like an hours and hours of video content course. So it's meant to be just like a step by step guide. But there are video tutorials embedded into the guide. I created it this summer, just because I was getting a lot of authors coming to me and helping them. And I really wanted to help on a larger scale without having to like hop on calls, which I'm still happy to do. But this guide really kind of takes you through, it's very affordable. It's $23. So other courses are like in the 1000s right now. So I was like I really want to make this affordable. A lot of us have full time jobs or whatever it may be. And so yeah, it's a step by step, it'll walk you through everything from downloading the app and creating your profile and optimizing it, to hooking those readers, to making your first video, post ideas, all of the above.

Anna David: Yeah, and I'll put a link to it in the show notes that just seems like a done deal. If you're listening to this episode spending $23 on learning, you're obviously interested in this. So I think that seems like wow, I'm gonna go buy it. Thank you. Of course. And so do you. Do you do work with authors individually, though?

Shelby Leigh: I do. Yeah. At the moment, I offer like consultations, and I do audits for TikToks and Instagram profiles to kind of help you optimize once you've been using the platform if you're not seeing the results you want. So I give specific recommendations there. And then I also have a variety of other guides like an Instagram guide and a digital marketing foundations course.

Anna David: And would you say you found TikTok to be more effective than Instagram in terms of book sales?

Shelby Leigh: I have yes. And I've had like reels blow up and get more than 10 million views. And it just doesn't translate to the amount of sales as TikTok has for me. So I find that and other authors have echoed that same sentiment that TikTokers are quick buyers, they want to go buy the book as soon as they see that they like it, which I love and appreciate. So Instagram is really great for community building. And I think I connect with readers on a deeper level on Instagram. But in terms of actual sales, TikTok is king. 

Anna David: Now, oh I just had two questions at once. So my mind like froze for a second, what other opportunities have come to you as a result of being an author who's blown up on these platforms?

Shelby Leigh: Well, the first and foremost would be that I was able to get an agent and a couple of different book deals for my book. So the book that blew up on TikTok was originally self-published. And it was republished in July by Simon and Schuster. And then I was able to do an audio book for that book, which was awesome, because I had the proof that people liked my voice because I was reading my poems on TikTok all the time. So that was a dream come true. And then my second book is coming out in January, and I was able to pursue this full time and also launch my book marketing business. So that was also amazing, of course, and a dream come true.

Anna David: What was it like to go from self-publishing to traditional? Did they change a lot? How much control did you have?

Shelby Leigh: I was really happy with the process, they changed, or I was about to say they changed a lot. They did not, they kept pretty much all of it the same, which I really liked. They liked the cover, I think we changed some formatting of some of the poems and like the design of the book, but the poems stayed the same, the inside stayed the same. And of course, the added audio book was a done deal for me it was so fun to record that.

Anna David: And so what and so okay, so the book mark the marketing company, so let's say can we talk about prices? Let's say somebody wanted to work with you one on one, how does that work?

Shelby Leigh: Well at the moment so if they want to come with come to me for like a consultation. That's pretty affordable, like 30 minutes for like, I think 50 or something dollars an hour for like 100 And then if we want to do like a coaching package I offer at the moment like months of support where we kind of go back and forth for like audio messages I’ll audit your work, all of that that starts at 400 for the month. I definitely work to make it as affordable as possible. I made custom packages for a lot of people, which is always fun, but that differs depending on the author.

Anna David: Okay. I think you need to raise your prices.

Shelby Leigh: I know

Anna David: But after all of you listening buy that. Because that is that is crazy value and I just think I just think you should charge more. 

Shelby Leigh: I know, I know, I know, I've yeah, I'm planning on it. But I’m having a lot of fun.

Anna David: But not till after this after this episode.

Shelby Leigh: Not till after this after this episode. I'll give you all a couple of weeks.

Anna David: Yes. Well, this has been fabulous, what am I failing to ask you that that my listeners need to know?

Shelby Leigh: I think if you're hesitant, just start, just get on the app and just start make your accounts. Say that you're an author on the account and then just start scrolling through book tok. Start liking people's videos, search for your genre and find some readers who are really excited about the books they are reading in that genre. And I think you'll get a sense of how great this platform can be. Because whenever you first join it, the algorithm doesn't know you, it's going to give you a lot of random stuff to show you. And you're not going to like any of that. And that's okay. But once you see like the book tok community and how valuable this platform can be, do that. Do it for a few days before you try posting because the algorithm will get to know what you like. And then just just try just experiment, flip through your book and add some text and make it really easy and just see how it goes.

Anna David: Okay, wait, this is reminding me of something else. There's this misconception perhaps and I have it that if you don't do it right away, okay, my boyfriend and I started TikToks, the same day. His was like an anonymous kind of heat, he’s like all nervous about people knowing, political one. Went crazy. He knows nothing about social media, like me and my videos about like the publishing business, no one cared. I mean, whatever. It's all relative. And so I felt like I was constantly digging myself out of this hole, whereas he just kept going viral over and over again. Is that just what, does that happen?

Shelby Leigh: Yeah, that happens. And I think we all have our low moments, too. Like I don't, every single video does not do well, for me. And I'm at like, 400,000 followers, like, it really doesn't mean that you're going to blow up every single time. So yeah, I think don't let that get you down. Don't let that stop you from pursuing it. Because one video can be life changing, honestly.

Anna David: And it's not like it's the truth isn't just that the algorithm is like, oh, she didn't do well from the out of the gate. So forget her like it can happen at any time.

Shelby Leigh: Yeah, I think so. I don't really believe in the whole shadow ban type of thing. I believe that there are different words like the more again, like spicy romance authors will say that there are words that they kind of, don't use, because TikTok will like not like that. And you might experience some sort of blocking or shadow banning from that if you are using like, inappropriate words is all I will say. So that sort of thing. But I don't believe that they would not show your videos because of one bad performing video, or if you haven't blown up yet. They take your video whenever you post it, and they show it to a small group of people. And if those people interact with it, they'll show it to more. And then they'll show it to more, and then they'll show it to more. So it's really dependent on each video.

Anna David: Okay, you've totally motivated me to get to go back there and try harder. Because, you know, my philosophy right now is like, I just try to do a little bit everywhere. I used to just be like, put it all into Instagram and just Instagram and then, and then I'm like, you know, billionaires can buy things and then they go away. Like, I don't want to put it all in one place.

Shelby Leigh: Yes

Anna David: Is that what you would say?

Shelby Leigh: Yeah, definitely. I definitely agree with that.

Anna David: Um, fabulous. So if people want to find more about you, they should obviously follow you in all the places, but can you tell me where they should go?

Shelby Leigh: Definitely, my main website is shelbyleigh.co. My books are there. But you can also find links to the different marketing support that I offer. The TikTok guide is there as well. And then I'm at Shelby Leigh Poetry for my writer accounts on Instagram and Tiktok. And then I'm at writers dot poets on Instagram and Tiktok, where I share book marketing tips and connect with authors as well. 

Anna David: And let's clarify it's L-E-I-G-H in case you're like, oh, L-E-E. So Shelby, thank you so much. It was so valuable. And you all thank you so much for listening. 

Shelby Leigh: Thank you for having me.

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