Anna David's Blog, page 11
September 14, 2022
The Big Mistake You Need to Avoid with Craig Stanland
Boy, does Craig Stanland have a story to tell.
It starts with the FBI knocking on his door, followed by two years in prison.
But that's not really what we delve into here. Instead we talk about the book he wrote on his experience—and the one major mistake he made.
Now that he's at work on book number two (title TBD—we get into that in the conversation), he's approaching everything differently.
Find out about that, as well as how he's planning to use videos to launch his next book, in this episode.
RELEVANT LINKS:
RELATED EPISODES:
The 7 Biggest Mistakes First-Time Authors Make
How to Set Up an Author Podcast Tour with Alex Sanfilippo
CLICK ON ANY OF THE LINKS BELOW TO HEAR THIS EPISODE OR CLICK HERE TO GET THE POD ON ANY PLATFORM
September 7, 2022
Why All Authors Need to Start Their Newsletter List NOW with Holly Darling
Holly Darling is the owner of Holly Darling HQ, a business that focuses on helping authors create and implement their email marketing strategies to sell more books and build their brand loyalty.
In other words, she was the perfect person for me to interview about why you need to start your author newsletter list now—and the most effective ways to do that.
In this episode, we talked about so many things, including but not limited to: which newsletter provider is the best one to start with (hint: it's not Mailchimp), average open rates (and why open rates have been inflated lately), why to be vulnerable in your emails, how and why to split test, whether or not you should re-send emails to subscribers who don't open, where you should put your newsletter sign up in your book and finally why it's great to not have many subscribers.
In other words, actionable AF.
So dig in. And take action!
RELEVANT LINKS:
Holly's Welcome Sequence in a Weekend course
Holly's Mailerlite for Authors course
TRANSCRIPT:
Anna David: So here we go. Thanks for being here, Holly.
Holly: Thanks for having me, Anna!
Anna David: So let us talk about newsletter list. I just had Jane Friedman on the podcast, she said it's the number one thing authors need. I would say anecdotally; it's the number one thing authors are reticent to start doing. You are an expert. What do you think?
Holly: Well, it always strikes me as funny when authors are hesitant to write newsletters until I remember the reasons that I've gathered over the years. But yeah, I think that newsletters are the single best way to build brand loyalty, create conversions, get data to drive new business-making decisions. And just to basically connect with your readers, regardless of the genre that you write, regardless of how many books you have written or are thinking of writing. Newsletters are data that you own. But also, we're storytellers, by nature, if you're writing a book, whether it's fiction or nonfiction. We can talk and we can talk with words. So why not use that medium, right?
Anna David: Yeah, I do think it's looking at it as another creative outlet, rather than oh, my God, this thing I have to do.
Holly: Yeah, it's an extension of your voice. Once I work with authors, and they kind of see the vulnerability piece like, I don't want somebody to unsubscribe. It feels icky if I'm selling or all these things. When we create strategies that just eliminate those, it really is fun and you can get right into it as an extension of who you are and what you want to teach people or entertain people with or anything like that.
Anna David: Okay, so the number one question, how do you start? How do you get those first subscribers?
Holly: The unfortunate reality of first subscribers is always is friends and family to start with before anybody really kind of knows you. As far as who do you ask - even before that, I always say there's a conscious decision. And for me it's got to be something they decide whether they're going to make social media their hub, I call it their hub, or their list their hub. And I am obviously in favor of making your list your hub. That just makes it easy for all conversations, whether marketing, or one-to-one or speaking engagements. Come to my website, join my list. If you're just moving all things in that direction, then it's not hard to remember to do that, right? Like, oh, well, I have a Facebook page and I have an Instagram page and I have a list - it gets lost. But lists are data that you own. If you think about that conversion, not just in terms of revenue, but in terms of the ability to connect with somebody with a traceable footprint, lists being the first point of entry to your brand is always a good idea. However, when you're first starting, it's completely intimidating and terrifying. There's the technical stuff and then there's the marketing piece, right? So, getting started without any followers, you have to be comfortable with having 10 people on your list for a little while and thinking of it as a marketing experiment. Like, I'm going to take these 10 people and I'm going to test a lot of theories out on them. Or I'm going to try some stuff and see what works.
Holly: But then there are different ways that you can grow those 10-20. Some ways are easier than others. They would be lead magnets so you could create something that holds value for your readers. And in fiction that can be short stories, previews, downloadables. In nonfiction, I think it's easier because it’s downloadables or educational content. But my one piece of advice is to start now, whether you're published or not. And that way you're spending some time getting data and testing things, but also building that brand loyalty. In the fiction world, they can become arc readers. So advanced reader copies and they are the ones that will be your sales team because they have grown with you. And if you're if you are brave and vulnerable and talk about that journey with them, they're rooting for you and they'll reply to you and ask you if they can help. That small little group of people that you start out with can become invaluable. So those low those small numbers that feel insignificant and feel sometimes embarrassing, like, oh, I only have 100 people on my list. Oh my gosh, those are the times that you can do so much with those 100 people as opposed to having 50,000 and you have a whole new set of problems connecting with people. So, yeah, I don't know if I answered your question.
Anna David: You did! I think that's really important. First of all, your open rates are going to be a million times better, which is really the number that that matters the most. So many people lie about their numbers because I cannot tell you how many people I talk to you and I go, “Oh, how big is your list?” And they say, “pretty small, like 10?” And I'm like, oh, they mean, 10 people? No - 10,000. I don’t believe you. People are lying. We don't know. I think they are.
Holly: We don’t know but it's against like that vanity metric, right? That people are like, well, if I say I only have 1000, they will think I'm less of an author or less of a speaker. But I mean, I've had 10,000, reduced that list to 2000 and then regrown again and then gone back to that because it's all about the quality of your list, not the quantity of the list.
Anna David: 100%. So what would you say is a good open rate? I know it depends on the number of people on your list. But what do you say?
Holly: So, it does depend on a whole bunch of things. But if you're looking at across the board averages, I would say, averages are somewhere between 20 and 22. Now they feel like more like 30 to 45 with somewhat inflated open rates due to the Apple privacy policy. But different industries have higher rates. The entertainment industry has a higher open rate. Food and accommodation has a higher open rate. It just really depends on the audience that you're reaching. But most people that I work with land realistically - and I say that because of the inflation that is being seen now since September - somewhere between 25 and 35 is kind of where most people sit. But again, thinking about the click rate that goes along with it. So the open rate is the first point of entry important metric to kind of keep an eye on. Then, once you start to have something to kind of offer them or you have a call to action, that click rate becomes very important as well. So where did they both kind of average out? But yeah, people get upset. I had an open rate of 15%. I'm like, okay, let's figure out why and what happened. Maybe you've sent an email to everybody on your list. Typically, if you have larger lists, that will give you a lower open rate but it's not the end of the world. It's just data.
Anna David: Exactly. This is what it's what I've sort of observed in the last couple years: it feels like people got burned out on lead magnets. And a lot of times, I can also say anecdotally myself, I'm more likely to sign up because they describe what's in the newsletter and that looks interesting to me. Where do you stand on that?
Holly: I think the lead magnet has to solve a problem. It has to be communicated clearly. But just assuming that having the word “free” in there is going to convert into a registration is a recipe for not getting a great conversion. I think clarity is what sells. I mean, especially in the nonfiction space, it just kind of goes right by their eyes, like that word free either feels like spam or it feels like yeah, whatever. They really need to connect with you and that's what it's all about. Inside of the newsletter, I think needs to follow up with that connection but also needs to deliver that more importantly than the downloadables. Because I can count maybe on one hand how many times have actually used the downloadable that I've gone somewhere to get. But I've thought that that downloadable would solve a problem but in reality, it's the person delivering it and the value that they send in the newsletter. To follow up with that really has no bearing on whether I continue to subscribe or unsubscribe. So lead magnets I think are due a bit of a change you as far as what they are and how they work. But again, it's all about testing, right? If you see that you're not getting those conversions, then try something different. Lead magnets don't always equal people signing up for your list.
Anna David: One thing I'm doing now is, I have one page, that's just this is what is in this bestselling book bulletin and one that is, here is how you do an elevator pitch - you'll get this download. Just to have one actionable and one just to promote. They both attract people but I found with a lead magnet, it’s actionable. Give somebody something so they can get a quick win that you want the dopamine rise from.
Holly: Yeah, exactly. I like video. I like something where they can see your face, where they can make that trust decision. Or something they don't have to print out because it's like, a lot of people don't have printers. But yeah, what can you give them that actually moves them forward in the journey and the reason why they came to you in the first place? Don't make them do more work, make it easy but also make it clear.
Anna David: So nurture sequence is another thing that I have somewhat abandoned because I got so sick of them from other people. 6 things that all follow the same format. I do like two or one. Where do you stand on the nurture sequence and explain what a nurture sequence is?
Holly: Yeah, so a nurture sequence is just a follow up email or series of emails that come to your subscriber after they have joined your list. I love a nurture sequence but I don't love a random nurture sequence that just pushes things down like, buy this, buy this, buy this, buy this in the author space. You know, in fiction, it's like, “buy my book, buy my book, buy my book.” In nonfiction it's, “you need to do this and buy my course, you need to do this and buy my course, and do this and buy my program” or what have you. It feels inauthentic. It also doesn't have to be more than one email and it can be a lot of emails, it really depends. I think one mistake a lot of people make when they do add a nurture sequence into their newsletter system is that they're sending that sequence and it has a decent amount of emails in there and they're set 24 hours apart or something. Then they're also sending weekly newsletters or maybe twice a week newsletters to people, This happens a lot in the nonfiction space, where you're trying to help somebody with the regular newsletter and they're going through your nurture sequence. And then they're getting two or three emails a week and they're like, woah, too much. Sometimes they're landing boom, boom, right after each other. It’s not conducive to getting anything opened because people get overwhelmed.
Anna David: With Kajabi and Drip, they don't get your weekly until they're through the nurture. So that is something.
Holly: That’s good! But it takes remembering to manually exclude people, put them in a group and then exclude them or tag them or whatever. It's totally doable. But 9 times out of 10 it’s not done. So back to how long that could be, it depends. If you are an author with a back list, you can make it a bit longer. But I say spread the time out between those emails and make it intentional. My word for 2022 for emails is: customization. That doesn't mean that everybody gets their own email but based on their actions, so things they've clicked or done, send them something that really means something to them, that's valuable to them. In the fiction space, maybe it's a trope or a theme that comes along. Like they said, “oh, yeah, I really love political thrillers.” Then you can set a sequence up to deliver them your political thrillers. If you have nothing to offer them, like you're just kind of new and you're starting out, a welcome sequence can be one email, like, “thanks for signing up.” I would love a video at least so they can kind of get to know you and tell them what to expect. Like, “I send weekly emails,” or “I send them every month” or whatever, so that they're not like, “what the heck is happening, who is this person?” Remind them how they got there, why they're there, and what they're going to get from that point forward. Then, stick to that. Don't slide into one way or the other - never emailing them or emailing them a couple of times.
Anna David: I'm taking notes because you're giving me so many great ideas like a video as part of that sequence. I just signed up for Bonjoro and I have this this day where I'm like, I'm going to send a personalized video to everyone who subscribes. Then I realized that's absolutely impossible, but it would be cool. If you're new and you don't have that many people subscribing every day, that seems like a good service.
Holly: Exactly. That's something again that you can do with a small list! Or you can just film a blanket general video and say, “Hey, I'm Holly, thanks for joining - whatever, whatever.” And it's pretty generalized. Again, that custom piece, you can fool around with that and see, did you get any response? People will typically reply to that so if you get nothing, then that's not worth it to continue on. Maybe I’ll try something else. Thinking again that people are reading these on mobiles, they're in a hurry. What are your own feelings about emails in your inbox? Typically, you can start with the smallest, assuming that the people joining have similar feelings, maybe not the exact same, but they might be overwhelmed or reading in a hurry, only want short emails, don't want something that goes on and on and on forever. Or they don't have the time to upload a video so you got to make sure that that upload time is good. All these things you have to think about when you're trying to make a decision. I always say, head to your own inbox and see what's happening there. What do you like and what don’t you like? Try to use that for inspiration.
Anna David: Yeah. Except something like, I hate emojis in newsletters. I don't know why. I think it's some weird OCD thing. I see it and it gets upsetting to me on the subject line. However, I hear emojis are great in the subject line. What about little tricks like that?
Holly: Yeah, I don't use emojis very often. But same thing, funny enough, when I see when it stops me. So it depends. Overuse of anything tends to not be a great idea. So, you could split test it. You have one subject line for part of your list and another use the same email and give them a different subject line. It's easy sometimes as one subject line with an emoji and one without and see if one of them gets opened more often than the other. Then, you have your answer, whether you disliked them or not. Then I would say use them sporadically, right? Only for emails that are super important that you can get a call to action going that equals revenue typically is when I will pull out some of the big stops. But subject lines are a whole workshop in and of themselves. Thinking along the lines of there are things that you shouldn't put in subject lines that will have you flagged as spam right away, such as the word “free,” lots of exclamation marks, really, really, really long subject lines, things that use the word “you.” Like, “Hey you,” those kinds of things. And the words change all the time. It's really impossible to keep track of them. But there are those are some of the key things that typically will get you sent right into the spam folder, especially as a new author who hasn't really got their deliverability rates up and running.
Holly: My but my biggest thing was subject lines is keeping a subject line file of those that you like inside your inbox. Oh, that was cool, I like that. File it for inspiration. Try to figure out a way to use it that works for your brand. Don't overuse emojis, punctuation, capitalization, but try things that aren't really being done. President Obama once sent an email that just said, “Hey,” and I'm like, well, that was weird. But I opened it and so then I started experimenting with “Hey,” and if it works. But again, not overusing it and thinking about if I was sending an email to a friend, what would my subject line be? I struggle with subject lines to friends all the time, especially I don't want to say like, open this up or whatever. But then sometimes maybe I'll use that for my newsletter: “open this up.” Or if you can ask them a leading question like, I can't believe this happened. Or, did you see the news? Anything that is the question that leaves them hanging like, well I want to know what that is. Those are often really good as a plain sentence structure. Some people like to use all lowercase, it feels very friendly like if I'm sending something to a friend, I tend not to capitalize and punctuate and that feels friendly. You can use personalization. I don't often use it but some experts swear by it where you insert their first name into the email. But again, all of these things are things you can try. I highly recommend most email service providers offer you the ability to AB test your subject line. So you can put a couple in, let it run for a couple hours and see what happens.
Anna David: That's great. Do you recommend resending to people who don't open a couple days later?
Holly: It depends. I'll do that only for what I call revenue generating emails. So if there's a call to action in there that I really want things to happen, like your book launch, you've got to preorder or you're appearing somewhere where there's ticket sales. Or there's something happening that you can visibly track an ROI on the click that happens there. I'll resend on opens with the knowledge that 20% of open rates is often non reliable because it's come from an iOS user, where they're flagged as open no matter what. So it's hard to know if they really have opened it. Then sometimes they'll get duplicates if they haven't opened it. But again, a way around that is just make sure it's a completely different subject line. Even go so far as to change like the top entry line, the salutation or something inside the email. Then if they do happen to open both, there's a bit of a different feel there. And they're not seeing them stack up in their inbox, I know some authors that consistently do this with every single email, and now they've trained me to not open the first email because I know it’ll come again and you don't want to do that. So, yeah, I think they're important, but don't think they’re ‘use it every email’ important.
Anna David: In terms of deliverability, do you think on the original email, the first one saying, hey, write me back with blah, so that you're training their inbox to not ever recognize it as spam. Do you think that's important?
Holly: It is important but it's really hard to get that call to action to happen. So the response and then your response again closing the loop is ultimately kind of a gold star in deliverability. However, it's hard to happen. So sometimes I'll put a block, or sorry, a button. Instead of a link behind the button, I'll use the code, “mailto:” and then my email address. And then if they click that button, it automatically brings up their email sending out box and autofills your email address in there. You can even write some more code if you wanted to, that has a subject line ready for them and all that. So making it really easy but also kind of leading them right to that button that you put, it works well.
Anna David: I love it. So, you said early on to sort of pick your lane. Are you going to do social media? Are you going to do newsletters? What if you want to do both?
Holly: Yeah, I do both. But everybody that knows me over on my social channels knows that if they want to get more information, they need to be on the list. So it's a constant conversation that's being had over on social media. Let's say like, for instance, on Facebook, it would be you know, the button goes to my landing page that to join the list. The lead magnet offer is there. If it's on tick tock, the link is heading to a landing page where they can join. Those are intentional pathways that I've set up and every so many social media posts is, “are you on the list? Today they got this lesson.” I'm also a fictional author. So in that it's, join my list to get this book free. It’s in the rotation and it's not every day, but it is there. On pinned posts there's: join the list, click this link, get the lead magnet, blah, blah, blah.
Anna David: Instagram now allows pins posts.
Holly: Yes! So, it’s part of the conversation. My LinkedIn bio is definitely to a landing page to get a downloadable. It's just part of my intention. I don't think you need to do one or the other. I think they can complement each other. However, I think lists are much more effective at selling and socials are much more effective or can be as effective at educating.
Anna David: Oh god, I had an important question but then I got distracted with this. Here's my important question: do you think if you're going to do one link, it's more important to get them on your list or to get them to your book?
Holly: List because you can continue to sell to them as your back list grows, as you write more things, as you make appearances. I'm a big fan of getting them on the list. The first email in a welcome sequence can do some work like, if you want to purchase the book, here it is, blah, blah, blah. Conversion rates on lists are in the 20 to 30% range, on average, but conversion rates on social media, when you want to sell them something are typically less than 1%, with the outliers that that have kind of gone there. It's just such a more reliable space where you own the process, you own the visibility, and you own what happens after.
Anna David: In terms of live appearances, do you recommend having a place where they can physically write down their names and email addresses? Or is there a better way to do that?
Holly: It definitely works. Or you can use technology and you can have something pre-planned. When I do speaking events, they have their own little landing page. It depends on how the conference is set up. If you're at a conference then usually the organizers have some sort of tech deliver going on during speaking events like, here's the slides, here is a coupon code, here is how to join their list. When I'm doing like book signings or things like that live, I usually would have an iPad there with the landing page. Then I know it’s legal. I’ve got everything kind of working. But you can do a very standard pen and paper, as long as you get the right pieces of information and the consent that you need. I don't think you should be without an ask to a list, regardless of where you're at.
Anna David: Yeah, even at the grocery store and Starbucks.
Holly: Yeah.
Anna David: Well, fantastic. Is there anything I haven't asked you about email lists that you'd love to share? Oh, what about putting a sign up in your book? Always? And do you want it in the front?
Holly: Oh, I have it in both front and back. Not everybody does. So, I have it in the front with a different offer, different landing page. And I'm like, oh, wow, you love my book so much you signed up for my list before you even read it. That’s just in case they never get back to the rest of the book. Then I have it right after the end. I know that sometimes there's previous chapters, sometimes there's this, that and the other thing, but again, thinking that this is my hub, that's where I want everybody to go. I will move them onto my list right away at the end in the back matter. I also track that in the list and I track their behaviors but they also get a little special something for having read the whole book and then joining the list so I can see where they came in as well. It's important.
Anna David: I love it. And of course with nonfiction, it can definitely be get the glossary, get the cheat sheets, whatever it is that will enhance their experience of having read the book.
Holly: Yeah, as long as it connects to what they've just read, there's typically a really great pick up on that bonus content.
Anna David: In terms of platforms, do you think MailChimp is the easiest one to start with?
Holly: MailChimp feels like it's the easiest one to start with because they've done a really great job at marketing and making that name synonymous with email marketing. However, in the past few years, there have been some changes that MailChimp that I think don't make them the best choice for brand new authors. I know that MailerLite has a free service under 1000 subscribers. The big difference between them, especially for those new to email lists, is the service. With MailChimp, when you're at the free space, you don't get any customer service or assistance with something. With a program like MailerLite, they do offer all the customer service you need with their free program under 1000 and all full automations, full everything, with the exception of a few templates, but you get to use them for a couple of weeks. With MailChimp, you have to really start to upgrade if you want to talk to anybody and get more than the basic stuff that's there. As far as integrations go, like how they integrate nicely with websites, MailChimp typically integrates with a lot of those templated websites easily. But all email service providers can do that, it just takes a few extra steps.
Anna David: If I can say anything useful today, it's avoid Drip at all costs. I nearly had 17 breakdowns during the brief time I was using Drip. I don't know if you have experience with that.
Holly: I've used them once for a client work that I was doing. But I've never personally used them.
Anna David: Sorry, one more thing I just remembered. You sort of touched on this but while working on a book, do you think absolutely share? You know, like, “hey, guys, I just started on my new book” or, “hey, I'm on chapter three,” really bringing them into the process so that they're invested?
Holly: 100%, I haven't released a book in like a year and a half, which is abnormal but the pandemic, all those kinds of things. But I have not stopped sending these letters and I just typed the end on one and sent a book off to the editor and wrote a newsletter. I've been getting replies already like, “oh, my gosh, you're back, yay, congratulations.” It doesn't have to be weekly updates but I think it should be consistent updates, like, here's where I'm at. You're getting them excited, you're getting them invested in your success. And again, when you're ready to tell them go buy the book, they are ready to buy the book, as opposed to trying to build that list and those critical times when a book comes out is when you can get the most organic lift from anything. You want to have your list start to push that a little bit.
Anna David: Okay, I love it. Now, is there anything that I've neglected to ask you that would be useful for listeners?
Holly: I don't think so. I think the biggest thing that I could say is just do it now. Don't wait, do it now. And stay consistent. You know, if you choose to write a newsletter, and you pick Tuesdays or first Tuesday of every month for a monthly newsletter, great. Stay consistent because all of these changes that you make like, oh, I have nothing to write about. But you probably always do have something you just aren't sure if it's going to work or not - just do it. But it messes with your deliverability if you keep changing things, so stay consistent. But do it. Just start doing it.
Anna David: And we should mention you help authors do this. So what if someone listening wants to find out more information about that?
Holly: Sure, you can hang out with me, my website is hollydarlinghq.com. There's lots of free stuff there. Free little mini courses, a blog and you can join my Facebook group where we talk emails every single day. We do lots of that or you can take a course, they're very non-genre specific. There are specific courses and then there are general email courses. Or you can just ask me to help you with your email strategy, which I do quite a bit.
Anna David: I love it. I'll put those links in the show notes. So thank you so much, Holly. This was so informative, so many action steps I know I'm going to take so I imagine you all will too. Thanks so much for being here.
Holly: Thanks for having me.
Anna David: And you guys, thanks for listening. Bye!
RELATED EPISODES:
The Business of Being a Writer with Jane Friedman
Making a Newsletter Into a Book with Jeff Kober
CLICK ON ANY OF THE LINKS BELOW TO HEAR THIS EPISODE OR CLICK HERE TO GET THE POD ON ANY PLATFORM
August 31, 2022
The Secret to Getting Amazon Reviews for Your Book with Craig Tuch
Craig Tuch is doing God's work.
At least when it comes to the author who really wants Amazon reviews.
See, Tuch started a company called Hidden Gems that, among other author services, provides a way for authors to gather reader reviews for their books. As anyone who has managed an Advanced Reader Team can attest, getting people to follow through on actually writing the reviews they've promised is no simple feat. Hidden Gems to the rescue—with very reasonable prices to boot!
In this interview, Tuch broke down how he gathered a list of 15,000 avid readers who love to review, why it's good to have bad reviews and how sticky the Amazon review process can be.
RELEVANT LINKS:
RELATED EPISODES:
How to Write a Book Everyone Recommends with Rob Fitzpatrick
How Do I Get Reviews for My Book?
CLICK ON ANY OF THE LINKS BELOW TO HEAR THIS EPISODE OR CLICK HERE TO GET THE POD ON ANY PLATFORM
August 24, 2022
What a Book Can Do For an Entrepreneur with Rich Goldstein
Rich Goldstein is a patent attorney, speaker, host of the Innovations and Breakthroughs podcast and, most relevantly for this show, the author of the bestselling book The ABA Consumer Guide to Obtaining a Patent, which was published by the American Bar Association.
He's someone who understands through and through what a book can do for someone's business and in this episode, we got into all that as well as how writing a book changed Rich's career, why he sends a copy of the book to anyone who requests it and how writing a book could, theoretically, make an entrepreneur a cool five million.
RELEVANT LINKS:
RELATED EPISODES:
How to Write a Book Everyone Recommends with Rob Fitzpatrick
What Book Would Help Build This Entrepreneur's Business?
Approaching Your Book Like It's a Business with Bonnie Habyan
TRANSCRIPT:
Anna David: Rich, thank you so much for being here.
Rich Goldstein: Oh, it's my pleasure, Anna.
Anna David: So, as you know, I find you to be a delightful human being. And I don't mean to always preface it with this, but just, I don't mean for a patent attorney, but I just sort of mean, you're so much cooler and goofier and more fun than one might expect. Upon knowing the things.
Rich Goldstein: Right, and I've come to accept that, too. It's like, I have another friend who's like, always described me like, he's the coolest attorney ever. I'm like, what about the coolest guy ever? But she's like, yeah, but you just wouldn't expect that from an attorney as well. So, I've just come to like, yeah, I'm gonna call me like, cool attorney, then that's cool. I've made my peace with that.
Anna David: I like it. I mean, being the coolest guy in the world, is it's just impossible to say. But the coolest attorney like I literally think that might be true. And one of my favorite things is, we were just in Utah, this mastermind didn't, it was a little bit of like a woo-woo meets mastermind. And there was this game, you could call it that we played where you had to go around the room and say your favorite thing about yourself? And do you remember what you said about yourself?
Rich Goldstein: Oh, I actually don't.
Anna David: You said, "I'm a goofball."
Rich Goldstein: Oh, awesome.
Anna David: He got that answer right.
Rich Goldstein: Well, yeah, it's true.
Anna David: So, but we are not talking about that. What we are talking about is, is the fact that you wrote this book, and your situation was different, because the ABA came to you and said, Will you please write this? But will you tell me about that? The American Bar Association for those of you who aren't familiar with that?
Rich Goldstein: I mean, I've been a I've been a patent attorney for at this point. 28 years. And I've worked with a lot of entrepreneurs throughout my career, but there are many other patent attorneys out there, like there are over 10,000 patent attorneys, let's say in this country. So, I got a call from the American Bar Association from an editor at the American Bar Association, saying that, well, we want to do a consumer guide on patents. And we were wondering if you'd be willing to write the book. And I talked to them more about it. And like, it sounded very interesting, and, of course, an amazing opportunity. But I asked, well, kind of why me, you know? And the answer I got was, well, we look and we see that you're out there in the world, you're not just sitting behind the desk. Like on your website, you should you mentioned 28 different places that you'd been to last year, different events and conferences where you've spoken at or attended. And that's what we want in an author, someone who's really out there in the world. And it's kind of funny, because when I was out there in the world, going to all those events, a lot of times people would ask me, okay, I get that you're here, and I get that you're an attorney. And this is what the subject is. Kind of like what they're asked me is like, what's the endgame? How you gonna monetize this? How are you gonna make money from being here at this event? How it was gonna be worth your while? I didn't quite know, until I got that phone call from the American Bar Association, that it, you know, essentially, was the fact that I was out there in the world that really led towards being invited to write the ABA consumer guide to obtaining a patent, which having written that book is the best credibility ever. And it came from kind of following this path of getting out there and relating to other people, meeting people, creating relationship. Well, I didn't quite know where it was gonna go. But I guess I kind of trusted that in some way would just come back around and it did.
Anna David: And then once you had the book, did fewer people ask you what you were doing at events? Did they get like, Oh, he's the guy?
Rich Goldstein: Yeah, exactly. I mean, well, I mean, things people introduce me as that then people that know me would introduce me. Okay, this is Rich Goldstein, and he wrote the book on patents for the American Bar Association.
Anna David: That's fascinating. Because when you said there's over 10,000, well, I only know of one and I hear about all the time and I am. So that book, you got blurbed by Barbara Corcoran, Frank Kern...how did you get those blurbs?
Rich Goldstein: It's all about relationship like reaching out through my network. And it's interesting, the Barbara Corcoran one because I didn't quite know. Well, first of all my research on her showed that she kind of had some negative things to say about patent attorneys. Like she had said, it's something like, for a lot of a lot of inventors The only one who gets rich is the patent attorney. And so, you would think like, maybe that's a bad person to ask to blurb your book. But then, when I reached out to her assistant and assistant said, well, what would you want her to say about your book? I kind of came up with the fact that like, like, yeah, like, you know, the quote is here on the back of the book, it's not always wise for entrepreneurs to rush to get a patent, but they should rush to get this book to learn about patents. Learn the process, spend your money wisely, and apply for a patent that the right time and for the right reasons. So that fit exactly within have thoughts of it. And, you know, and so after having given some ideas like that, that's what came back. And again, it was great, because it came from her. And also, it fits very well and how she feels about the role that patents play that people ought to learn about the process, and not just go give money to a patent attorney. Because that might be a mistake.
Anna David: And was that just literally a cold email? Or did you know someone who connected you?
Rich Goldstein: Yeah, it was, it was a warm handoff, it was an introduction of someone that knew her assistant.
Anna David: So what we talked about in Utah was how when people read the book, they often then say to you, well, you wrote the book on it, what should I do next? How does it quote convert?
Rich Goldstein: Well, yeah, I mean, I think the when someone reads your book, you're immediately the expert. And I think like, if they found the book helpful, and they learned from the book, most of the time, it's not going to tell them, well, now I know everything there is to know. They know that they they've learned enough to know that there is a next level of understanding that there's a next level of looking at a situation and knowing well, which of these principles should I apply to my situation? And so, someone's read your book, they naturally look to you as you're the expert. And I would love to have you involved helping me with my situation, I'd love to have your take on my situation. But probably, I'd love to hire you to, to handle it.
Anna David: And so I mean, I saw on your website, it's apply for a complimentary calls, do the calls or just somebody on your team do them?
Rich Goldstein: I have someone on my team doing the call. I mean, I really, we get a lot of inquiries, and I couldn't possibly talk to everyone who was just thinking, Oh, maybe a patent would be useful. A lot of times, they need to be directed towards some type of educational resource, such as the book or videos that I've done that's on my website. But something to learn more about the process first. I would say there's a pretty high ratio of people that are potentially interested in patent to the numbers that the number that actually do something. And I know that from friends that contact me, so like just from them or friends or like, "Hey, I was thinking of patenting something, can we get on a call?" And I don't do those anymore. I refer those to my team, because it really is like 20 to one.
Anna David: I hate that personal connection where you hand it off. I have no idea how you deal with that. But it's the bane of my existence.
Rich Goldstein: Oh no, it’s taken me a long time to be okay with that. And then I just kind of realized that I'm bitter about it, when I do it totally. I'm like, I'm getting on this call. And I know this is going to be a waste of time. So, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, so I just realized, like, it's not going to serve my relationship by getting on that call. It's better if I direct them to my team, and they, you know, they've got the right attitude, they've got a better attitude than me about having someone possibly, quote unquote, waste their time. Like, they're equipped for it. They're ready for answering the questions and not leading somewhere and, you know, like, so it's actually better. But yeah, I'm totally with you on that. I've always felt obligated. When like someone comes as a personal friend or someone who came referred by a friend, and they're talking you up and saying, like, oh, yeah, you got to talk to rich, he's the rock star in this and I feel obligated. Even though all the inquiries that come through regular channels through the website through advertisements or whatever, they all go to the team they don't go to me, but somehow it felt like those personal ones I need to handle myself. I’ve learned not to.
Anna David: Okay, you should coach me because I got one this morning. And I'm like, I don't want to do this, but I should. That being said, you lovely listeners, it's so wonderful. If you're interested in hiring us, my team, this one, I always say my team is smarter than me. They're better at this than I am. So talk to them.
Rich Goldstein: And they know how to grease the chute to getting you on boarded as a client, like, I'm kind of fumbling my way through, it seems like I want to do a patent evaluation like, okay, well, let me see what information I need to get from you? Okay, I got your credit card info, oh, you know, I'm sorry, I got to call them back because I didn't get the three digit code or something like just the professionals handle it. When it comes to onboarding a new client, I am not a professional. And you know, I think that's the guiding principle.
Anna David: So this book, so because you were approached, you didn't probably even know what a good marketing tool the book was going to end up being. Or did you?
Rich Goldstein: I did. I mean, you know, like, I thought it was a little bit too good to be true, right? Like that. I'm going to be writing this book for the American Bar Association. And yeah, I mean, I've always loved marketing. And marketing has always been a big part of my business. Since I started, like, I started out in the 90s, with Yellow Page ads.
Anna David: And then I was listening to a podcast, I think it was even one of yours, where you said you had a magazine?
Rich Goldstein: I did. And it's so funny. I have it on the desk here, because it was anyway, I recently found this magazine that I was that I co published back in the 90s. It was a magazine for inventors that had articles on how you pursue the patent process and articles about like prototyping and things like that. So yeah.
Anna David: So did you go from Yellow Pages to magazine to book or and you do a lot of videos and you have your podcasts? How does it all play into itself?
Rich Goldstein: Yeah, well, let me, I'm looking for something here in this magazine. I'm just looking for the ad, there's got to be an ad for me, hang on one second. Because the thing that's interesting about the magazine is essentially, I was doing content marketing, in print form in the 90s. So I had a magazine, lots of info, the info that people are looking for, people that are my target customer. And then ultimately, they also got to see me in the magazine and call my law firm. So this was content marketing in print form in 1994.
Anna David: Ahead of his time.
Rich Goldstein: So then that evolved over time. And just to answer your question, I guess what evolved is the audience and where the audience was hanging out and what the audience was looking for. And so it was kind of like, what ties it all together. And then the book like has, I'd say, it's kind of like a dual role, where it's got its role as a content marketing piece. Like most content where people find the content that are interested in learning about it, they read up about it, gets the more interested, brings them to more with a cool middle of the funnel. And then ultimately, maybe they become a customer. But its values also just for the fact that it exists. People that never even read your book, never even possess it. Or going to recognize that you're the author of this. So there's the content marketing aspect, there's also just a straight out credibility of it.
Anna David: It's interesting, because at this mastermind, what came up was there are three reasons entrepreneurs do books. One is the sort of free plus shipping simply to get somebody on a newsletter list. One is the book. Yeah, hope nobody reads but you just get credibility as the author, and then one I call the legacy book, and it looks at it, you know, yours is more of the third, wouldn't you say? Of course.
Rich Goldstein: Yeah. Yeah, it is. It's part of my personal brand is another way of say legacy, I guess. Legacy as like what they think of later on.
Anna David: Well, I mean, not to be morbid, but later on, you know, that's why I don't see any point to the first two kinds really, ever first kind, I understand. But the second kind, it's like, if you're going to put it out there, have it be the highest quality you can. That's what I said.
Rich Goldstein: No, absolutely. Absolutely. And I'm a stickler for writing. Like I'm very particular by writing and I don't want anything with my name on it that's not well written.
Anna David: Do you do all of it yourself? All of it? All your writing: the magazine, the book, the blogs, everything?
Rich Goldstein: Oh, no, not all of that. But all of the book, yes. I 100% wrote the book. And the magazine was a, there was different people contributing back then. In terms of like blog and web pages, there are other people that write articles for me. And some of them, I'll be honest, some of its a little bit cringe worthy. And some of it I don't really like, and I've had to accept the fact that it's not going to be written the way that I want it to be written. And most of those pages don't even get read, they just increase the rank of my overall site. They are just part of the system that that increases the, you know, the overall positioning of the website. So I'm okay with it being kind of like, I wouldn't write it like that. I wouldn't say it for certain stuff, for other stuff, yeah. But that's been a little bit of a hurdle for me to get over is because I want everything under my name to be perfect.
Anna David: That's came up for me this morning. My podcast guests said, Well, I was looking at the transcript, and I saw that there was this error, it was the tiniest error. And I've heard it back and I go, Look, nobody reads the transcript. I'm okay with a little error being there. You can still share it. Because it's there for SEO and it works. So I remember you saying, back when you were the king of Clubhouse, we were all on Clubhouse, it would come up that you give the book to for free to anybody who wanted it. Tell me a little bit about that.
Rich Goldstein: Oh, yeah. So basically, I you know, previous to that, I had a few places where I had offered a free copy of the book. And there I would get maybe on average about 10 requests for a copy of the book that we'd fulfill per month. But then, you know, December of 2020 When I got deep into Clubhouse, and really like it was quite a ride. And he's on clubhouse like 20 hours a day. Exaggerating a little bit, but not by much. And so like just kind of like really was involved with Clubhouse. And then on my profile, I created a landing page where people could request a copy of the book. January of 2021, I got over 100 requests for a free copy of my book. And I know in that month, I think I got at least five clients from Clubhouse.
Anna David: That's a decent amount. What was I going to say? So we have to get close to wrapping up, do you think every entrepreneur should do a bug?
Rich Goldstein: I think it depends on what your sales funnel looks like. If you're doing high ticket, then absolutely, then absolutely, you should do a book. I mean, if you're I guess you have to think in terms of intended audience, maybe even if you've got something where you're building a platform, it's going to be a platform with a digital tool. And that you sell for $5.99 a month monthly recurring revenue. So maybe like it's not going to help that audience. But maybe it's going to give you credibility when you go for round the funding. Or when you go to exit your company. Whereas like, you know, the fact that you wrote the book will suddenly be the difference between maybe a $20 million exit and $25 million exit, in which case, that's $5 million for the, you know, like so there are subtle ways that it could help every entrepreneur. But I would say certainly, if you are, if you've got high ticket offers, then you absolutely should write a book.
Anna David: Well, Rich Goldstein, you're fantastic. How can people find you if they'd like to reach you?
Rich Goldstein: If you want to find out more about me, I mean, one thing you can do, I mean, if you want to learn more about patents, first of all, you can go to my website, which is Goldsteinpatentlaw.com. There are great videos there and other resources. And if you want to find out if it's a match to work together with us, then there's a way for you to set up an appointment to talk with my team. You can also check out the book is the American Bar Association consumer guide to obtaining a patent by Richard Goldstein. You can find it on Amazon. And I also have a podcast, which is Innovations and Breakthroughs, where I feature top leaders and the path they took to create change.
Anna David: I love it. Well, Rich thank you so much. And you guys thank you for listening Nate I will talk to you next week.
CLICK ON ANY OF THE LINKS BELOW TO HEAR THIS EPISODE OR CLICK HERE TO GET THE POD ON ANY PLATFORM
August 17, 2022
What You NEED If You Don't Want Your How-To Book to Fail
This solo episode is material from the book I'm currently writing (working title Be Book Smart: How to Create a Book That Will Turbocharge Your Business) (that title has already changed a few times but I like this one; what do you think?) I'm sharing this with you now for several reasons:
1) If you're writing a how-to book, you need it. It is all about the WHY, WHAT and WHO of conceptualizing a how-to book.
2) I am practicing what I preach in this book, which is SHARE WHAT YOU'RE WORKING on with your audience so the people you're writing it for can give you feedback.
On that note, do you want ALL the advance intel about this book? In other words, do you want to be the first to hear about the latest tips and techniques when it comes to preparing for, promoting and profiting from your non-fiction book? Do you want to potentially be included in the book? PLEASE SIGN UP HERE. Excited to share the journey and all the exclusives with you!
RELATED EPISODES:
The Business of Being a Writer with Jane Friedman
Robert Greene on Using Power and Seduction to Launch a Book
Mike Koenigs on Why You Need to Have a Product Embedded in Your Book
CLICK ON ANY OF THE LINKS BELOW TO HEAR THIS EPISODE OR CLICK HERE TO GET THE POD ON ANY PLATFORM
August 10, 2022
How to Set Up an Author Podcast Tour with Alex Sanfilippo
Alex Sanfilippo is the host of the top-rated podcast Podcasting Made Simple, the founder of PodPros.com, a software company focused specifically on the podcasting industry and the co-creator of PodMatch, a service that matches podcast guests and hosts together for interviews. That's not all! He also co-founded PodcastSOP, a project management tool that helps podcasters keep up with their episode releases.
You get it: the guy is POD OBSESSED.
So who better to come on the show to talk about how authors can book podcast tours? Everything he shared was fascinating but what I found especially fascinating is what he had to say about why authors should pass on opportunities to go on certain shows and why appearing on smaller podcasts can be way more beneficial than going on the big ones.
Good one! Don't miss it!
RELEVANT LINKS:
RELATED EPISODES:
How to Get on Podcasts to Promote Your Book with John Corcoran
Talking About Your Book on TV and Podcasts with Media Coach Susan Harrow
TRANSCRIPT:
Anna David: Thank you so much for being here, Alex.
Alex: Anna, it's such an honor to be here. I'm really excited about what we're going to be able to do to add value today. So thank you so much for having me.
Anna David: Well, so I think we should just get right into it. I would call you a podcast obsessed man. Am I correct?
Alex: I've never been called that before. But yes, that's strangely accurate.
Anna David: So we'll talk about the services you offer. But first, let's just get right into it. If somebody who's listening is in the process of writing a book thinking about writing a book, maybe has written the book, wants to do an author tour, what are the steps? They know, I always say a podcast is the very best way to promote your book. Better than mainstream TV. Better than the today's show. So how should they start going about that?
Alex: Yeah, I'm first of all glad that you said it's kind of like the best method out of the bunch. And there's a couple reasons for that, especially with your audience being really busy, successful entrepreneurs, trying to get a physical book tour going, like going like town to town, if people even do that. Right or like, even something local. That's going to be a lot more work than saying, “Hey, I'm going to block out an hour of my time to jump on a podcast today.” Right? Like not even leaving the office and not even leaving the desk, it's just a much easier way to get the same message out, which I really personally love. I mean, I work from home office, I think it's just a great thing as a busy entrepreneur myself. But anyway, yeah, I believe that this is a really powerful method. And I think the best way to get started, is to really figure out the approach that you want to take. So a lot of us being entrepreneurs, we are multifaceted, from the sense of, yes, we have the book or the idea for the book, right. But we've also got the business and we've got the hobby, and the we've got the side hustle on the side hustle, right? Like we've got all these things, the first thing you want to do is really narrow down what you are going to share specifically. And I always say, it can change, but it needs to be one thing at any given time. So if you say today, it's the book, then only talk about the book. And what I mean, if someone asks you a question about your personal life, you're like, I don't really want to talk about let's talk about the book. What I mean is, if you're like an amateur surfer, on the side of now, a busy entrepreneur who's published a book, don't jump on surfing podcast right now. Say no to those for now. And for now stay focused on the tour that you're on, just like you would with a physical tour. You wouldn't take all these detours on it, right? You're going to stay focused on the main thing. So I think number one, is really figure out what you are going to be doing what you're going to be talking about, get that really laser focus with yourself. Because once you have that foundation, you're able to look at the industry and decide what you want to do moving forward.
Anna David: So the author can look at their book and go, Okay, I mean, this has a specific slant. So let's say it's an entrepreneur who has written a book on how to build a business, what should that entrepreneurs first step be to get that tour going?
Alex: Commit to themselves that they're only going to talk about their book and starting a business, right? So again, we get all that out there. The next thing would be to identify how many shows they want to get on. Because I'll tell you this, shows that would be a good fit for a topic like that, there are going to be 10s of 1000s of them out there. And podcasting is the abundance area, like that whole industry is just full of abundance. So there is a lot of opportunity. But if you just say “I'm going to go on all of them” might not be a good idea. What you really want to do is say okay, I would like to get on, let's say 52 this year. I'm going to do one a week, for an entire year, which is a very ambitious goal, I'd say. But let's just imagine that's what you have committed to. The next thing you want to do is really identify the just specific avatar or reader of your book, the person that you can most speak to with your content. So again, that's a fictitious character. I have one for my podcast, his name is Adam. Adam is not real, but I can tell you anything you want to know about Adam, his age, his relationships, how often he works out, like where he works, like all those things are little details I have. And I think that once you've said, “okay, I'm going to get on this many shows, and I'm only going to be talking to this avatar.” Now you can look at the 10,000 shows that are in that category, that might be a pretty good fit, and identify the ones that would be the absolute best fit for you at that point. Or if they're coming to you, you can clearly just start funneling them saying okay, this one's a no, this one's a yes, you can start having that opportunity to do that sort of thing.
Anna David: Okay, two things. I personally have always had struggled with this avatar and I always tell my clients is picture one person. My most recent book, I pictured literally, this is kind of a great story, a couple that I knew super cool. They talked to me about hiring my company. I wrote this book and thought of them. Would they like this? Would they be offended by this? And they never hired me. But lots and lots of people like them did. Years pass. I see them I love them so much. I was like, oh my god, this is so hilarious. I wrote this book thinking of you guys. Guess what, then they hired me. So it takes immediately. But I didn't care that they hadn't hired me because having them as an avatar got me really clear, when it comes to podcasts even say what we're doing right now to get really meta. I can't picture one person. I know my listeners, you know, Christine, if you're listening, I think of Christina and Ashley a lot, because they are literally, they are so enthusiastic about this show and comments and all the things. But there's guys who listen, there are people clearly who are not Christine and Ashley, how do I handle that?
Alex: That's such a good question. And I think it's a really important point, like getting to the point where you know, your listener is a great thing. When you're the host, you can do that when you're the guest, you're not really sure. You’re not like, hi, Mom, I bet you're going to listen to this, right? Like, you're the host, when you start knowing your audience. That is a very clear as someone who's being a guest, that is a clear example of what a healthy podcast looks like. When you actually can call people out that you know, are going to listen, that is, in my mind, the best place a podcast can be. And I think a lot of people just skip that. And they always just had the fictitious avatar. Now I want to make it really clear that is the foundation. So if you're not sure who's listening, have that. If you’re going to be a guest and you don't know everything about the show. Even though I've listened to your podcast, I don't know who's listening. Like I couldn't tell you that, you say Christina and Ashley, I think right? If I knew who they were, that would be very weird, right? If I did that much research to discover, hey, I saw two really engaged people. That would be like borderline stalker level. Yeah. So again, as the guest, I'm just going to create an avatar and I'm going to look for shows like yours that reference specific listeners. Because that means that you've built a tribe, you build a community, that means they're going to be really engaged. And because they trust you so much, I've kind of already developed a little bit that know like, and trust with them as well, because you invited me to the platform. So again, as the as the guest, you have to just do your best to say, “okay, it's just a line with who I think I really can speak to.” And if you've decided you have a real person in mind saying, okay, like me, I think have a couple friends in my life. I think of my buddy Jared. Would he get something from us? Because we're really well aligned. And he's always interested in similar things. Would he like this podcast? You can make it real if you want to do something like that. And I think that that's equally as healthy in my mind.
Anna David: So you mentioned passing on podcasts that aren't aligned? Is that really a good idea? If you're brand new to podcasting, shouldn't you say yes to everything?
Alex: So this is like a controversial opinion here. But I still say no, I know a lot of people who say yes, just get on them, get the reps in and stuff like that. For me, there's just so many podcasts, I want to be on ones that I really, truly believe I can add value. Even if I get nothing out of it. I want to know that I can show up and I'm talking about my proper craft, the thing that I want to talk about right now and showing up to do the best I possibly can. I've been invited on some, for lack of better term, some strange podcasts. When I say strange to me, they're strange, because I'm like, I don't, I don't even know that topic, like doesn't make sense to me. I've been, I got invited to one that was actually strictly higher education and college professors listening to it. I didn't finish college, I started investing instead. And just that worked out for me. And so I'm like, hey, I don't even have like an actual degree, like a, like a college degree. And like, yeah, but you still seem like, it'd be fun. And that's when I easily just was like, No, I'm sorry. I just think that who you're explaining as the listener is not really going to gain much from me, they probably wouldn't even appreciate hearing me. So I really think of it that way. Now, again, controversial because some people say just jump on any single one that you possibly can. My method is just because I'm a busy entrepreneur, I want to only be on the ones I think are absolutely 100% the best fit for me as like for my business and me, but also for the people I can add value to.
Anna David: Yeah, I mean, and listener, when you start to experience this, when you are requested for more podcasts than you want to be on, it is an actual problem. I know that I have trouble saying no. I really in life don't have trouble saying no. But I will often say, I don't like going on podcasts that much. And it's the truth. I don't like going on podcasts that aren't aligned with me. But I feel like it's really not a cool thing to do. I find it not that easy to do.
Alex: Yeah, I mean, I'm with you on that. You know, it's interesting, a lot people that are newer, they'll just start going on all of them. And I've seen this happen even on some of our platforms. And they lineup 10 or 12, they'll get up for it and be like, “I hate this, like, I don't like this.” And usually it's because they're getting on shows they're not aligned with so they feel like an hour goes by and they feel like they just wasted their time. It didn't really do anything for them. Maybe it helped somebody which we did great. But chances are, it's probably just a total misalignment. Some hosts don't understand that you need to really have a narrow niche and be very focused. Now, there's some that are like entrepreneurship is a more of a broad category, right? Like even you found a sub niche within it though, which I think is a really good thing. So for me, it's like cool, you have a focus, but if the podcast is about everything, if that's what it's called, that's just probably not going to help a lot of people out. It's just a really random thing.
Anna David: Okay, so they're doing their searches, they are figuring it out. Do you recommend going to iTunes? You know, one thing that I know Jeremy will recommend is going to iTunes looking at, you know, the top ones, because those are the ones you're going to know about. But kind of going down a level and then looking, what do listeners also listen to? What's your process? What's your recommendation?
Alex: I think that's a really great idea. I think a lot of people what they do though, is they get to the top shows, and they just stop there and say, “cool, I want to be on all these shows.” And I have, again, some maybe controversial opinions on that. But the first of which being that if you're on a show, you're like, oh, my God shows with more than a million people listening. Listen, most niche shows will not have a million people listening. What has happened is the show has grown because people really liked the host, which in many cases, they have just blocked out the guests, they expect to learn something expect to be dazzled. But they are not going to follow any call to action. I've now been on a few different million plus downloads shows. And they've done less for me than some shows with under 100 listeners, not because I didn't deliver, I mean, I delivered really great value. But there's a million people listening, they're not there for me. The host at this point is famous. And people just love to hear the hosts. They like a little aha moment and be like, there's this guy in there the other day. They don't know my name, they don't care to know my name, they know the host’s name. But on the shows with 150-200 people listening to them and it's really narrow focused on my niche. They're like this guy, Alex Sanfilippo came on the show and shared about this, which is exactly what I've been looking for. It's why I listen to the show is to learn that very thing. And I just think that so many people to get into it like only only 100,000 downloads per episode, like that's all I'm going to do, I'm not going to waste my time. But the thing is, just because we've kind of developed this social media, I guess like persona is the same value. So like a picture with 50 likes isn't a big deal. But podcast listenership is like people sitting in seats. So if there's 50 people sitting in seats versus a picture with 50 likes, which is more valuable? Not to downplay the value of social media, but everyone listening is gets what I mean. If I told you, I have 50 People in the next room who want to hear exactly what you have to share, you're the ideal person for them to speak to, everyone who's listening is going to show up every day of the week to speak those 50 people because they want to receive from you. Anyway, little rant there, I'm going to turn it back over to you. Sorry about that.
Anna David: I love that so much. Because it's also what I always say about books is, “I want to be a New York Times bestselling author, I want to sell this,” and I always say 100 people reading your book, who are going to take action is so much better than 10,000 who are kind of going to forget it. Yeah, so true. So okay, how does somebody niche down? I mean, by being a podcast listener, and finding the niche podcast, that's how you target?
Alex: Yeah, I mean, really, what you're what you're saying there was like, start from the top level, right? Look at what the shows are. Look for shows and comments of using like, I don't really know how Spotify works with that. But I know Apple podcast if someone has an iPhone, you can see related shows, and they're typically much smaller shows. Start looking at some of those, start finding the ones that feel like a good fit. Or there's services out there that can help with this as well. And that will actually help you find the right host to be with and stuff like that, like, like I said, be with right, like, but actually connect with them. So you can be the guest on their show. There's all kinds of ways to do this.
Anna David: How can I not say that you have a service that does that? I mean, I know we're not, you know, promoting actively, but okay, so you have this service pod match. How does it work?
Alex: Okay. Yeah, thanks. Thanks for that. Appreciate it. Yeah. And I'm one, like I said, I show up to add value. And if it's valuable for people to hear, great. So my service is called pod match. And it literally is like, for lack of better term, it's like a dating app but for podcast interviews. So instead of connecting do for dates, it connects in for podcast interviews. So if you register as a guest saying, I am talking about starting a business, I wrote a book on it, this is what I want to talk about. It's going to match you with podcast hosts are looking for guests and they want that guest to talk about how to start a business. So it's automatically going to match you. Like I said, it's going to be the lower tier from a download level. Like I think the show quality is still top tier but the download numbers will be smaller, which I find those niche podcasts be a lot better. But that's what you're going to connect with when you use a service like this. And pod match is not the only one out there. There's others, I encourage people to go take a look around to see what the right fit for somebody is but I created this because of the act of the problem we're talking about here today. Right? I've got a book. I'm a busy entrepreneur. I don't want to spend time going through iTunes and through all these different directories and stuff and try to find podcasts. I just would rather something say, “hey, here's three really good options today. What do you think?” That's what I am looking to do as a podcast guest myself. And that's how I find the mass majority of my interviews and I do about 50 a year right now.
Anna David: That's great. Yeah. I don't know when you sleep and it's fine. Maybe you don’t!
Alex: I'm going to call you and write a book about that because I do sleep. So I'll let you know when it's time for that, alright.
Anna David: Okay. Talk to me about your books. What's your book?
Alex: I don't have a book.
Anna David: Oh, I thought you just said that. You were so in it that you were embodying the listener.
Alex: I was, I was, sorry, I'm so sorry. I'm speaking as a listener. So sorry, I do not have a book at this point. But I will one day and I'll call you when it's time.
Anna David: Okay, you absolutely should. So what is very meta about that exact misunderstanding is, would you say caught showing up to add value is the most important thing that they can do? They should be thinking about the listener, not thinking about promoting their book?
Alex: Yes, 100%. And I've actually found as a podcast host, myself, the guests, that tells me that they sold the most books, or did the best with my show, or had the most downloads, were the people that literally, when I asked them where they can find their book, they're just like, “Alexander, we're gonna talk about that. Like, if someone likes it, they'll just find it themselves, let's just tell them everything about the book on this episode, and just give it all away. If they want more, they can find it.” They're the ones that always do the best. I've only had a couple of guests who has been like, “well, I'm not gonna tell you about chapter five, because you got to grab the book to learn about that.” Nobody's interested in that. People are listening to learn, they want to know that they can trust you. And if you said the whole book word for word, if someone got value from it, they're going to go buy the book, that's just how humans are, at least in the space that we're talking about. Like starting a business, right? It's self-improvement. The thing is, and you know, to be true, people who buy self-development books are usually the ones that need them the least. And that's just the nature of it. Or people that buy business improvement books, they're the ones that probably are on the right track already, but are the ones willing to invest in themselves. So for me, podcasting is all about adding as much value, packing and as much as you possibly can. And as a result, the byproduct is you're able to actually convert something into sales or leads.
Anna David: Now, would you say, as I have said, it's rude to go on a podcast that you're not familiar with?
Alex: I personally think so. Some people that are doing like heavy numbers, like hundreds of podcasts a year. I don't even know how they would know. That's for me why, like one year I did 100 and that was just too many. And this year, I'm doing 50, because I can actually listen to each podcast before I go on it. I prefer that because I actually want to know who's listening. And also the cadence of the hosts. Example, you and I have very similar energies. But sometimes I'll go on, on a show where the host is really monotone. And if I come on, like, what's up everybody how y'all doing today? If I come at that show with that energy, it's going to be like, oh my gosh, because the listeners, they like the host. And like, who is this crazy guy that got brought on the show? So I just think it's really important to hear that so you can understand not to pretend to be somebody you're not. But just to understand how you can respectfully enter that stage. And so yeah, for me, I think it's so important that you listen to at least a few episodes of the show, just to have an idea of what you're stepping into.
Anna David: So, they get on the show. If they're not using Pod Match or a site like it, they should just, you know, they could just Google show producer show, you know, and I think probably get very clear on this is a show that doesn't even want pitches, you know, and if the producer or host information is hard to find, they probably don't accept pitched guests. Would you say that?
Alex: That's a that's a safe bet. You know, I actually saw on your website, you got somebody on the Jordan Harbinger show, which is like one of the biggest shows in the world. But I can tell you right now, like I know him personally, nobody who emails him ever gets on the show. Like it doesn't work that way, if you did that way, good for you, and on how you did that. But in general, he strictly has his list. And he's just going after that list, and everybody else is like, “sorry, I'm just not interested.” And yeah, a lot of those bigger shows especially or shows, they just make it really hard to contact them. It's because they don't want to be contacted. They've already got their plan, their strategy in place.
Anna David: Yeah, yeah. So they should just reach out. I actually have a pitch letter, maybe I'll put it in the show notes. Like the you can't lose pitch letter. I went through a phase where I was trying to get on podcasts to promote this podcast. But as I told you, I don't like going on podcasts that much. So I stopped but I pitched a couple and someone wrote me back and said, “This is the best pitch letter I've ever gotten.” So I actually have that as a sample. The reason that I know what to say is because I've gotten so many, mostly bad pitches, and then a couple amazing ones where I basically said, I don't care who you are, this pitch is so good. I need to have you on.
Alex: I love that you brought that up, because I have some people tell me, “oh, I tried the podcasting thing I just couldn't get on so people aren't interested.” And I've always asked, “can you show me what you sent them?” And it's like five or six paragraphs. And it's all like, I did this, then I did that and then on this and then on that. I'm like, who, just honestly, who wants to read that? I'm usually pretty honest with people. I'm like, oh, that's not interesting. To me this sounds terrible. I don't care. What I care about is what are you showing up with to add value to my audience? And I imagine your pitch, that I really hope you share with everybody, it has that side of it right? It has to, I imagine.
Anna David: Absolutely. It's all about what you can provide. What you see has been amazing but hasn't been provided, how much you'll share it. I always suggest reviewing the podcast and showing your screenshot because you know, there’s nothing a host wants more than a review,
Alex: I do the same thing and that at the end of the day, you're going to get a response if you do that. If a host doesn't even respond after you left them review and send it to them, then they're probably a jerk, and you don't want to be on that show anyway. But just that one tip alone. Because, again, one of the reasons that people don't get on shows is because they're pitching really terribly. And sometimes it's not even clear what they're after. So a host that's already busy and probably getting four or five others a day is just like, this is just another one for the recycle bin.
Anna David: Yeah what I will say, you know, 99% of the time, I'm getting pitches from publicists and I just delete them. I do not show them the respect of responding, because they have not shown me the respect of being at all clear on what my podcast is. So I have no issues with it. But literally, they're just pitching random people. Because my podcast has the word “entrepreneur” in it, they're just pitching entrepreneurs who don't have books, right? They’re just like, “hey, have my client on.” You know? Don't do that.
Alex: That’s an important point. That's why I like websites like my own, Pod Match. But the others that are more of directories. Because you know, if a host put their show on these directories, or on these matching services, whatever you want to call them, they're actually looking for guest one, but two, they're trying to avoid the whole email thing. So you could go the email route and try to search their emails, and you'll find on their websites. You can also go the social media route, but the social media side, you're also blind to knowing if they're actually looking for a guest or not. And that's why at the very least, I recommend people to again, save your time. If the idea is to share about the book and get on shows, the time you spend looking for shows, doesn't really have a huge ROI, because not doing anything for you. You can also hire somebody to do it. But you're talking about those publicists that do that. And often they are just they're using the spray and pray method, they'll send it to 300 shows and hope that three get back to them. At the same time, they're kind of almost giving you a bad name, because your name is in every one of those emails. And eventually, someone's going to read that and be like, “oh, this is that really annoying guy always has people reach out on his behalf.”
Anna David: Oh, it's happened to me. And, frankly, I've accepted maybe five or six pitches over the last couple of years. And they've never been my best guests, ever. My best guests are the ones where I go, I want this person, I'm going to get them. And you were one of them.
Alex: And I appreciate that. I'm honored to be on that list.
Anna David: Yeah, because it's like, I know what the holes are and what I've explained to the audience, and I know who can fill them. I don't always know I know the hole, then I see someone I go, that's the person that can explain it the best. So, do you think when it comes to a book, it's crucial that those interviews are set up in timed to the book release?
Alex: Not necessarily. I mean, that would be in a perfect world. I think that's probably ideal. And you may even know that better than I do, like going on a pre-launch tour could be really, really great. Right? I see people mess that up, though. This is why I'm not sure how it really works, is a book comes out in two weeks. They're like, cool, I need to go on some podcasts. Well, that episode is not-you're probably not recording it for another 30 days, it's probably not coming out for other 90 days. So you're going to miss your launch. Actually had somebody just the other day tell me “hey, my book comes out the end of August, I'm going to start the beginning of August getting on podcasts.” And I told them, “listen, it's time now.” I just think that's a really important thing. So for me, I don't know, because I see so few people get the launch timing correct. But have you? I'd love to just turn the question on you. Have you seen that work before?
Anna David: It's very hard. It is very hard. Just for me personally even with that planning and you’ll say, “please don’t release this early, please don't release it until this week.” They always say yes and they always release it early because it's not even out yet. Right. And it's just it's just the reality. I once had a pitch to guest who I had on and I've had this like this horrible surgery, the week that it was released, and I released it and her publicist wrote me and said, “her books not coming out till next week, thoughts?” And I was like, “my thought is I just came out of really bad surgery and that's just how it is.” And she's like, “we need to change that thoughts?” And I was like, oh my God. My best advice I can ever give to anyone is never do that because it just makes me dislike the guest who was perfectly fine and not promote the episode.
Alex: You bring up a good point here. I used to have an entrepreneurship show now everything I do is focused on podcasting. Like you said, I'm like podcasting through and through. I think if I start bleeding, it would just be podcasting at this point. But what I used to do because I had some run ins with like getting the timing right, because I wanted to help the guests because usually they're really great guests, right? Then their team comes in and it has to release on the stand like well, I only release on Tuesdays like it can't go on Thursday. They say it can't go out the Tuesday before, it can go out the Tuesday after. What I started doing is just telling the guests when they come on: if the book isn't out yet, like pretend like it's out. Like don't say preorder don't say prerelease, don't say any of that. Say the book is out, it's doing great. And here's where you can get it, basically. And I just found it takes all the pressure off me. Just make sure okay, this one's release date is after this date, because that's when it will launch. And the thing is even what comes out a week early, someone at the worst case, they're just going to see oh, a preorder link. Cool, right? Like, that's it, that's still okay. And then a week after that, because you want to be evergreen. Now, it is truly a live book.
Anna David: And I will notice when I look at my download numbers, so many people are discovering these episodes long after they're out, I think, I don't know, because I haven't made a lot of effort to figure it out. But like, how many subscribers versus listeners and all that stuff. But it's there for life. So if it's a week early, please don't bug the host about that.
Alex: It's a good point. And I'm glad you brought this up too. Because I just think that, really, if you're going on your book tour, it doesn't need to be on a specific timeline, like you know, your books been out for a year at this point. If you haven't done it yet, you might as well go for it. I don't see that being a problem personally.
Anna David: I don't at all. And I would say one of the major issues that I see are authors are so focused on the launch that they forget it's got a life and that the launch, sure it's important. In an ideal world, you've got all your ducks in a row. But it doesn't really matter. And I think the misconception comes from traditional publishing, which is so focused on the launch week, because once they have the launch week, they know which books they're going to put more resources behind. But if you're not doing traditional publishing, you can just keep promoting it for as long as you want.
Alex: Yeah. It's funny, you mentioned that because a guy that I know, his name's Brant, he released a book and a year later got on some podcast. He did want like the traditional publishing route. And one of them that he got on was like a multilevel marketing or direct sales guru. It was her podcast and all of her tribe listen. Anyway, I read the podcast and I guess she bought the book for everybody. It was like 1000 books, and they didn't have 1000 of them in stock. So like he was on my podcast next. He's like, “dude, I just sold out books like a year after it came out like 1000 books in one like one quick split second, everyone bought it.” And it's just like cool that book has-it's not like this was a day one thing this is a year later we're talking. So yeah, they're still life in that book. I hope that when anybody listening to this is writing a book, that you're not writing it just for today, you're writing it for the future and doing your best to keep it at least evergreen for as long as you possibly can, which means the lifecycle of your book can continue in years to come.
Anna David: And speaking of that, I've barely talked about this on the show. But right now I'm in the process of writing a book based on these podcasts interviews, I asked the guests who are really providing value. So I'm going to ask you while you're being recorded, may I use this interview in my book?
Alex: Please do! That would be amazing. That would be so cool.
Anna David: I’m subtly telling you guys the most amazing book, I'm going to release it in 2023. But it's so exciting because I've had so many amazing guests. And I don't know if you've experienced this but it starts with podcasting and moves so fast. They're sharing gems, and I'm like, okay, next week's guest and then the next week's guest. And having these transcripts and taking them apart and putting them together in a book, I'm actually appreciating the ridiculous wisdom that I've been able to hear by doing this. It's pretty cool.
Alex: It's so cool, because we're just having a conversation. And I've always found this to be true. But conversations I've just had throughout my life, whether there's a microphone in front of you or not, is where you get some of the most insightful information that you can learn and apply in your life. Podcasting is simply putting a mic between two people having a great conversation. And I just think it's it sets up a position for powerful things to happen. I think it's why I believe the world is just primarily being served through podcasts these days. From an educational standpoint, people are learning growing and changing from what they're hearing through podcasts, because they're just a fly on the wall in what could be a really beautiful conversation. So I mean, I can't wait to pick up that book myself. Because I'm sure like you're saying, it's the fact that you do such a good job vetting your guests, it's going to be full of just all kinds of wisdom that I would love to learn personally.
Anna David: So good! So Alex, we have to wrap up, tell me, how can people find you? Oh, we did say, well, I want to get into this a little bit. So I said to you, I don't want to go on Pod Match. Because I don't want to be pitch guests, because I know who I want. And you're like, oh, it'd be interesting to talk about, what do you have to say about that?
Alex: Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, you can always say no, and if it brings you to somebody that you didn't realize existed, or that might just be that perfect guests that you're like, oh, there's this like, you're saying there's this like hole in my mind of like what we're looking for? Maybe it could fill it right. It could just be another avenue. But there's no harm in saying no. Granted, if you do have like a very strict, this is exactly where I'm going and there's no room then don't do it. And I believe I said that in our initial email that we had back and forth like, “hey, maybe it's just not the right fit.” But to me, I think it's always worth potentially discovering somebody who might not know how else to find you. Maybe it's just the connection method that that would work best. And that's kind of my thought on it.
Anna David: Oh, but that reminds me of another thing. What about taking money for guests. You know, how do you feel about that? Does it take the quality of the podcast down?
Alex: I have found that it does. Some people maybe do it a little bit better. It's something that I've never done and really won’t. Even if my podcast was massive, I'm not going to do that. Because at the end of the day, I always say the same thing: seek to be a person of value, not a person of profit. If I just had you my podcast, because I'm like, well, can't get one to pay me but Anna said that she'd give me $500 so I guess I'll have her on the podcast. Without actually exploring the fact of is this really the right guest, I just took it because the money. Now I'm seeking to be a person of profit not a person of value. And as soon as you do that, I just find the quality of everything you do really starts to diminish. I believe that profit should be a byproduct of the quality that you add. I think a podcast is just again, one of most beautiful ways the world is being served and if you turn that into a profit machine, the podcast itself, I do believe in monetizing it, but not from the perspective of who you're bringing on the show.
Anna David: Yeah, so people listening, if you're toying with that idea, it may not be the highest quality podcast. You know, who knows? I hear rumors that the huge podcasters take money, but who knows, who knows?
Alex: I want to stay out of that world. I don't know it very well. I know podcasting from an indie podcaster standpoint. But for the big shows, I learned a lot about the publishing space in the last couple of years that made me really sad to hear how many dollars move back and forth to make things appear on lists and stuff I didn't know about. And I'd hate to hear it if podcasting was the same way. So I'm going to sit here and be naive and just pretend like no, that's not the case but it probably is.
Anna David: Yeah, I think so. So, how can people find you, join Pod Match, all the things?
Alex: Yeah. So everything that I'm doing is at podpros.com, which is just the parent company of Pod Match. So you can find Pod Match there, you can find anything else I’m doing and all of my social links. But I really love what you're doing here with Entrepreneur Publishing Academy. I think this is a beautiful show. You've done such a good job bringing the right people on and I just recommend everyone keep on hanging out with Anna, you're really going to go places together here. And thank you again for having me. I really appreciate it.
Anna David: Thank you so much, Alex. And thanks y'all for listening.
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August 9, 2022
Sh*t You're Not Supposed to Write About with Zara Barrie: Trauma
Previous podcast guest Zara Barrie writes about all sorts of things you're not even supposed to talk about. And, well, so do I. That's why we decided to do a 10-week special that we'll be playing on both of our podcasts called Sh*t You're Not Supposed to Write About (well, it was supposed to be 10 weeks but then I realized one of them might destroy my life if released so it may be a Mandela Effect thing where we'll call it 10 episodes and then when you get to the 10th week and wonder where the last one is, we'll go, "What are you talking about? We always said it would be nine." And then you'll go back and read these words and not know what's real and what's not.) But enough of that. Please enjoy this episode on sh*t you're not supposed to write about: drugs.
Not sure I've ever gotten more honest than I have in these. Wish me luck. And let it be an inspiration for you to write about it ALL.
RELATED EPISODES:
Sh*t You're Not Supposed to Write About with Zara Barrie: Drugs
Sh*t You're Not Supposed to Write About with Zara Barrie: Sex
Turning Online Readers Into Book Readers with Zara Barrie and Dayna Troisi
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August 3, 2022
The 5 Most Common Questions of First-Time Authors
Today, in this solo episode, I'm answering the five most common questions first-time authors have. They are:
Do I need a copyright for my book?
How many copies of my book will be printed?
If I launched a book, and I didn't sell many copies, should I relaunch it?
Should I sell my book only on Amazon?
Forgive me, that's four. I honestly thought when I recorded it that it was five. I am truly this bad with numbers. Good thing I can do words, no?
RELEVANT LINKS:
RELATED EPISODES:
Should I Hire a Company to Write and Publish My Book?
What I Learned From the Party Girl Re-Launch
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July 27, 2022
11 Reasons Every Entrepreneur Should Launch a Book
This solo episode is focused on the 11 main reasons an entrepreneur should launch a book. They are:
Less money spent on ads
Less money and time spent on client acquisition
Less money spent on PR
More effective podcast interviews
Less time spent creating content
Less time spent coming up with keynotes since they can come from the book
Less worrying about the competition, and wondering why someone else got the media hit or speaking gig
Numerous opportunities to impress the F out of everyone who hears your best selling author
Have the most impressive business card imaginable on you at all times
Jump to the front of the line
Be a hero to your family (cheesy but true!)
RELATED EPISODES:
Mike Koenigs on Why You Need to Have a Product Embedded in Your Book
Cameron Herold on Generating Free PR and Creating a Vivid Vision for Your Book
How to Get on Podcasts to Promote Your Book with John Corcoran
CLICK ON ANY OF THE LINKS BELOW TO HEAR THIS EPISODE OR CLICK HERE TO GET THE POD ON ANY PLATFORM
The 11 Main Reasons Every Entrepreneur Should Launch a Book
This solo episode is focused on the 11 main reasons an entrepreneur should launch a book. They are:
Less money spent on ads
Less money and time spent on client acquisition
Less money spent on PR
More effective podcast interviews
Less time spent creating content
Less time spent coming up with keynotes since they can come from the book
Less worrying about the competition, and wondering why someone else got the media hit or speaking gig
Numerous opportunities to impress the F out of everyone who hears your best selling author
Have the most impressive business card imaginable on you at all times
Jump to the front of the line
Be a hero to your family (cheesy but true!)
RELATED EPISODES:
Mike Koenigs on Why You Need to Have a Product Embedded in Your Book
Cameron Herold on Generating Free PR and Creating a Vivid Vision for Your Book
How to Get on Podcasts to Promote Your Book with John Corcoran
CLICK ON ANY OF THE LINKS BELOW TO HEAR THIS EPISODE OR CLICK HERE TO GET THE POD ON ANY PLATFORM
