Anna David's Blog, page 13

What You NEED If You Don't Want Your How-To Book to Fail

 

This solo episode is material from the book I'm currently writing (working title Be Book Smart: How to Create a Book That Will Turbocharge Your Business) (that title has already changed a few times but I like this one; what do you think?) I'm sharing this with you now for several reasons:

1) If you're writing a how-to book, you need it. It is all about the WHY, WHAT and WHO of conceptualizing a how-to book.

2) I am practicing what I preach in this book, which is SHARE WHAT YOU'RE WORKING on with your audience so the people you're writing it for can give you feedback.

On that note, do you want ALL the advance intel about this book? In other words, do you want to be the first to hear about the latest tips and techniques when it comes to preparing for, promoting and profiting from your non-fiction book? Do you want to potentially be included in the book? PLEASE SIGN UP HERE. Excited to share the journey and all the exclusives with you!

RELATED EPISODES:  

The Business of Being a Writer with Jane Friedman

Robert Greene on Using Power and Seduction to Launch a Book

Mike Koenigs on Why You Need to Have a Product Embedded in Your Book

CLICK ON ANY OF THE LINKS BELOW TO HEAR THIS EPISODE OR CLICK HERE TO GET THE POD ON ANY PLATFORM   

How to Set Up an Author Podcast Tour with Alex Sanfilippo

 

Alex Sanfilippo is the host of the top-rated podcast Podcasting Made Simple, the founder of PodPros.com, a software company focused specifically on the podcasting industry and the co-creator of PodMatch, a service that matches podcast guests and hosts together for interviews. That's not all! He also co-founded PodcastSOP, a project management tool that helps podcasters keep up with their episode releases.

You get it: the guy is POD OBSESSED.

So who better to come on the show to talk about how authors can book podcast tours? Everything he shared was fascinating but what I found especially fascinating is what he had to say about why authors should pass on opportunities to go on certain shows and why appearing on smaller podcasts can be way more beneficial than going on the big ones.

Good one! Don't miss it!

RELEVANT LINKS: 

Podmatch

  Podpros

Alex's podcast

RELATED EPISODES:  

How to Get on Podcasts to Promote Your Book with John Corcoran

Talking About Your Book on TV and Podcasts with Media Coach Susan Harrow

TRANSCRIPT:

Anna David: Thank you so much for being here, Alex.

Alex: Anna, it's such an honor to be here. I'm really excited about what we're going to be able to do to add value today. So thank you so much for having me.

Anna David: Well, so I think we should just get right into it. I would call you a podcast obsessed man. Am I correct? 

Alex: I've never been called that before. But yes, that's strangely accurate.

Anna David: So we'll talk about the services you offer. But first, let's just get right into it. If somebody who's listening is in the process of writing a book thinking about writing a book, maybe has written the book, wants to do an author tour, what are the steps? They know, I always say a podcast is the very best way to promote your book. Better than mainstream TV. Better than the today's show. So how should they start going about that?

Alex: Yeah, I'm first of all glad that you said it's kind of like the best method out of the bunch. And there's a couple reasons for that, especially with your audience being really busy, successful entrepreneurs, trying to get a physical book tour going, like going like town to town, if people even do that. Right or like, even something local. That's going to be a lot more work than saying, “Hey, I'm going to block out an hour of my time to jump on a podcast today.” Right? Like not even leaving the office and not even leaving the desk, it's just a much easier way to get the same message out, which I really personally love. I mean, I work from home office, I think it's just a great thing as a busy entrepreneur myself. But anyway, yeah, I believe that this is a really powerful method. And I think the best way to get started, is to really figure out the approach that you want to take. So a lot of us being entrepreneurs, we are multifaceted, from the sense of, yes, we have the book or the idea for the book, right. But we've also got the business and we've got the hobby, and the we've got the side hustle on the side hustle, right? Like we've got all these things, the first thing you want to do is really narrow down what you are going to share specifically. And I always say, it can change, but it needs to be one thing at any given time. So if you say today, it's the book, then only talk about the book. And what I mean, if someone asks you a question about your personal life, you're like, I don't really want to talk about let's talk about the book. What I mean is, if you're like an amateur surfer, on the side of now, a busy entrepreneur who's published a book, don't jump on surfing podcast right now. Say no to those for now. And for now stay focused on the tour that you're on, just like you would with a physical tour. You wouldn't take all these detours on it, right? You're going to stay focused on the main thing. So I think number one, is really figure out what you are going to be doing what you're going to be talking about, get that really laser focus with yourself. Because once you have that foundation, you're able to look at the industry and decide what you want to do moving forward.

Anna David: So the author can look at their book and go, Okay, I mean, this has a specific slant. So let's say it's an entrepreneur who has written a book on how to build a business, what should that entrepreneurs first step be to get that tour going?

Alex: Commit to themselves that they're only going to talk about their book and starting a business, right? So again, we get all that out there. The next thing would be to identify how many shows they want to get on. Because I'll tell you this, shows that would be a good fit for a topic like that, there are going to be 10s of 1000s of them out there. And podcasting is the abundance area, like that whole industry is just full of abundance. So there is a lot of opportunity. But if you just say “I'm going to go on all of them” might not be a good idea. What you really want to do is say okay, I would like to get on, let's say 52 this year. I'm going to do one a week, for an entire year, which is a very ambitious goal, I'd say. But let's just imagine that's what you have committed to. The next thing you want to do is really identify the just specific avatar or reader of your book, the person that you can most speak to with your content. So again, that's a fictitious character. I have one for my podcast, his name is Adam. Adam is not real, but I can tell you anything you want to know about Adam, his age, his relationships, how often he works out, like where he works, like all those things are little details I have. And I think that once you've said, “okay, I'm going to get on this many shows, and I'm only going to be talking to this avatar.” Now you can look at the 10,000 shows that are in that category, that might be a pretty good fit, and identify the ones that would be the absolute best fit for you at that point. Or if they're coming to you, you can clearly just start funneling them saying okay, this one's a no, this one's a yes, you can start having that opportunity to do that sort of thing.

Anna David: Okay, two things. I personally have always had struggled with this avatar and I always tell my clients is picture one person. My most recent book, I pictured literally, this is kind of a great story, a couple that I knew super cool. They talked to me about hiring my company. I wrote this book and thought of them. Would they like this? Would they be offended by this? And they never hired me. But lots and lots of people like them did. Years pass. I see them I love them so much. I was like, oh my god, this is so hilarious. I wrote this book thinking of you guys. Guess what, then they hired me. So it takes immediately. But I didn't care that they hadn't hired me because having them as an avatar got me really clear, when it comes to podcasts even say what we're doing right now to get really meta. I can't picture one person. I know my listeners, you know, Christine, if you're listening, I think of Christina and Ashley a lot, because they are literally, they are so enthusiastic about this show and comments and all the things. But there's guys who listen, there are people clearly who are not Christine and Ashley, how do I handle that?

Alex: That's such a good question. And I think it's a really important point, like getting to the point where you know, your listener is a great thing. When you're the host, you can do that when you're the guest, you're not really sure. You’re not like, hi, Mom, I bet you're going to listen to this, right? Like, you're the host, when you start knowing your audience. That is a very clear as someone who's being a guest, that is a clear example of what a healthy podcast looks like. When you actually can call people out that you know, are going to listen, that is, in my mind, the best place a podcast can be. And I think a lot of people just skip that. And they always just had the fictitious avatar. Now I want to make it really clear that is the foundation. So if you're not sure who's listening, have that. If you’re going to be a guest and you don't know everything about the show. Even though I've listened to your podcast, I don't know who's listening. Like I couldn't tell you that, you say Christina and Ashley, I think right? If I knew who they were, that would be very weird, right? If I did that much research to discover, hey, I saw two really engaged people. That would be like borderline stalker level. Yeah. So again, as the guest, I'm just going to create an avatar and I'm going to look for shows like yours that reference specific listeners. Because that means that you've built a tribe, you build a community, that means they're going to be really engaged. And because they trust you so much, I've kind of already developed a little bit that know like, and trust with them as well, because you invited me to the platform. So again, as the as the guest, you have to just do your best to say, “okay, it's just a line with who I think I really can speak to.” And if you've decided you have a real person in mind saying, okay, like me, I think have a couple friends in my life. I think of my buddy Jared. Would he get something from us? Because we're really well aligned. And he's always interested in similar things. Would he like this podcast? You can make it real if you want to do something like that. And I think that that's equally as healthy in my mind.

Anna David: So you mentioned passing on podcasts that aren't aligned? Is that really a good idea? If you're brand new to podcasting, shouldn't you say yes to everything?

Alex: So this is like a controversial opinion here. But I still say no, I know a lot of people who say yes, just get on them, get the reps in and stuff like that. For me, there's just so many podcasts, I want to be on ones that I really, truly believe I can add value. Even if I get nothing out of it. I want to know that I can show up and I'm talking about my proper craft, the thing that I want to talk about right now and showing up to do the best I possibly can. I've been invited on some, for lack of better term, some strange podcasts. When I say strange to me, they're strange, because I'm like, I don't, I don't even know that topic, like doesn't make sense to me. I've been, I got invited to one that was actually strictly higher education and college professors listening to it. I didn't finish college, I started investing instead. And just that worked out for me. And so I'm like, hey, I don't even have like an actual degree, like a, like a college degree. And like, yeah, but you still seem like, it'd be fun. And that's when I easily just was like, No, I'm sorry. I just think that who you're explaining as the listener is not really going to gain much from me, they probably wouldn't even appreciate hearing me. So I really think of it that way. Now, again, controversial because some people say just jump on any single one that you possibly can. My method is just because I'm a busy entrepreneur, I want to only be on the ones I think are absolutely 100% the best fit for me as like for my business and me, but also for the people I can add value to.

Anna David: Yeah, I mean, and listener, when you start to experience this, when you are requested for more podcasts than you want to be on, it is an actual problem. I know that I have trouble saying no. I really in life don't have trouble saying no. But I will often say, I don't like going on podcasts that much. And it's the truth. I don't like going on podcasts that aren't aligned with me. But I feel like it's really not a cool thing to do. I find it not that easy to do.

Alex: Yeah, I mean, I'm with you on that. You know, it's interesting, a lot people that are newer, they'll just start going on all of them. And I've seen this happen even on some of our platforms. And they lineup 10 or 12, they'll get up for it and be like, “I hate this, like, I don't like this.” And usually it's because they're getting on shows they're not aligned with so they feel like an hour goes by and they feel like they just wasted their time. It didn't really do anything for them. Maybe it helped somebody which we did great. But chances are, it's probably just a total misalignment. Some hosts don't understand that you need to really have a narrow niche and be very focused. Now, there's some that are like entrepreneurship is a more of a broad category, right? Like even you found a sub niche within it though, which I think is a really good thing. So for me, it's like cool, you have a focus, but if the podcast is about everything, if that's what it's called, that's just probably not going to help a lot of people out. It's just a really random thing.

Anna David: Okay, so they're doing their searches, they are figuring it out. Do you recommend going to iTunes? You know, one thing that I know Jeremy will recommend is going to iTunes looking at, you know, the top ones, because those are the ones you're going to know about. But kind of going down a level and then looking, what do listeners also listen to? What's your process? What's your recommendation? 

Alex: I think that's a really great idea. I think a lot of people what they do though, is they get to the top shows, and they just stop there and say, “cool, I want to be on all these shows.” And I have, again, some maybe controversial opinions on that. But the first of which being that if you're on a show, you're like, oh, my God shows with more than a million people listening. Listen, most niche shows will not have a million people listening. What has happened is the show has grown because people really liked the host, which in many cases, they have just blocked out the guests, they expect to learn something expect to be dazzled. But they are not going to follow any call to action. I've now been on a few different million plus downloads shows. And they've done less for me than some shows with under 100 listeners, not because I didn't deliver, I mean, I delivered really great value. But there's a million people listening, they're not there for me. The host at this point is famous. And people just love to hear the hosts. They like a little aha moment and be like, there's this guy in there the other day. They don't know my name, they don't care to know my name, they know the host’s name. But on the shows with 150-200 people listening to them and it's really narrow focused on my niche. They're like this guy, Alex Sanfilippo came on the show and shared about this, which is exactly what I've been looking for. It's why I listen to the show is to learn that very thing. And I just think that so many people to get into it like only only 100,000 downloads per episode, like that's all I'm going to do, I'm not going to waste my time. But the thing is, just because we've kind of developed this social media, I guess like persona is the same value. So like a picture with 50 likes isn't a big deal. But podcast listenership is like people sitting in seats. So if there's 50 people sitting in seats versus a picture with 50 likes, which is more valuable? Not to downplay the value of social media, but everyone listening is gets what I mean. If I told you, I have 50 People in the next room who want to hear exactly what you have to share, you're the ideal person for them to speak to, everyone who's listening is going to show up every day of the week to speak those 50 people because they want to receive from you. Anyway, little rant there, I'm going to turn it back over to you. Sorry about that.

Anna David: I love that so much. Because it's also what I always say about books is, “I want to be a New York Times bestselling author, I want to sell this,” and I always say 100 people reading your book, who are going to take action is so much better than 10,000 who are kind of going to forget it. Yeah, so true. So okay, how does somebody niche down? I mean, by being a podcast listener, and finding the niche podcast, that's how you target? 

Alex: Yeah, I mean, really, what you're what you're saying there was like, start from the top level, right? Look at what the shows are. Look for shows and comments of using like, I don't really know how Spotify works with that. But I know Apple podcast if someone has an iPhone, you can see related shows, and they're typically much smaller shows. Start looking at some of those, start finding the ones that feel like a good fit. Or there's services out there that can help with this as well. And that will actually help you find the right host to be with and stuff like that, like, like I said, be with right, like, but actually connect with them. So you can be the guest on their show. There's all kinds of ways to do this. 

Anna David: How can I not say that you have a service that does that? I mean, I know we're not, you know, promoting actively, but okay, so you have this service pod match. How does it work? 

Alex: Okay. Yeah, thanks. Thanks for that. Appreciate it. Yeah. And I'm one, like I said, I show up to add value. And if it's valuable for people to hear, great. So my service is called pod match. And it literally is like, for lack of better term, it's like a dating app but for podcast interviews. So instead of connecting do for dates, it connects in for podcast interviews. So if you register as a guest saying, I am talking about starting a business, I wrote a book on it, this is what I want to talk about. It's going to match you with podcast hosts are looking for guests and they want that guest to talk about how to start a business. So it's automatically going to match you. Like I said, it's going to be the lower tier from a download level. Like I think the show quality is still top tier but the download numbers will be smaller, which I find those niche podcasts be a lot better. But that's what you're going to connect with when you use a service like this. And pod match is not the only one out there. There's others, I encourage people to go take a look around to see what the right fit for somebody is but I created this because of the act of the problem we're talking about here today. Right? I've got a book. I'm a busy entrepreneur. I don't want to spend time going through iTunes and through all these different directories and stuff and try to find podcasts. I just would rather something say, “hey, here's three really good options today. What do you think?” That's what I am looking to do as a podcast guest myself. And that's how I find the mass majority of my interviews and I do about 50 a year right now. 

Anna David: That's great. Yeah. I don't know when you sleep and it's fine. Maybe you don’t!

Alex: I'm going to call you and write a book about that because I do sleep. So I'll let you know when it's time for that, alright.

Anna David: Okay. Talk to me about your books. What's your book?

Alex: I don't have a book.

Anna David: Oh, I thought you just said that. You were so in it that you were embodying the listener. 

Alex: I was, I was, sorry, I'm so sorry. I'm speaking as a listener. So sorry, I do not have a book at this point. But I will one day and I'll call you when it's time. 

Anna David: Okay, you absolutely should. So what is very meta about that exact misunderstanding is, would you say caught showing up to add value is the most important thing that they can do? They should be thinking about the listener, not thinking about promoting their book?

Alex: Yes, 100%. And I've actually found as a podcast host, myself, the guests, that tells me that they sold the most books, or did the best with my show, or had the most downloads, were the people that literally, when I asked them where they can find their book, they're just like, “Alexander, we're gonna talk about that. Like, if someone likes it, they'll just find it themselves, let's just tell them everything about the book on this episode, and just give it all away. If they want more, they can find it.” They're the ones that always do the best. I've only had a couple of guests who has been like, “well, I'm not gonna tell you about chapter five, because you got to grab the book to learn about that.” Nobody's interested in that. People are listening to learn, they want to know that they can trust you. And if you said the whole book word for word, if someone got value from it, they're going to go buy the book, that's just how humans are, at least in the space that we're talking about. Like starting a business, right? It's self-improvement. The thing is, and you know, to be true, people who buy self-development books are usually the ones that need them the least. And that's just the nature of it. Or people that buy business improvement books, they're the ones that probably are on the right track already, but are the ones willing to invest in themselves. So for me, podcasting is all about adding as much value, packing and as much as you possibly can. And as a result, the byproduct is you're able to actually convert something into sales or leads. 

Anna David: Now, would you say, as I have said, it's rude to go on a podcast that you're not familiar with? 

Alex: I personally think so. Some people that are doing like heavy numbers, like hundreds of podcasts a year. I don't even know how they would know. That's for me why, like one year I did 100 and that was just too many. And this year, I'm doing 50, because I can actually listen to each podcast before I go on it. I prefer that because I actually want to know who's listening. And also the cadence of the hosts. Example, you and I have very similar energies. But sometimes I'll go on, on a show where the host is really monotone. And if I come on, like, what's up everybody how y'all doing today? If I come at that show with that energy, it's going to be like, oh my gosh, because the listeners, they like the host. And like, who is this crazy guy that got brought on the show? So I just think it's really important to hear that so you can understand not to pretend to be somebody you're not. But just to understand how you can respectfully enter that stage. And so yeah, for me, I think it's so important that you listen to at least a few episodes of the show, just to have an idea of what you're stepping into.

Anna David: So, they get on the show. If they're not using Pod Match or a site like it, they should just, you know, they could just Google show producer show, you know, and I think probably get very clear on this is a show that doesn't even want pitches, you know, and if the producer or host information is hard to find, they probably don't accept pitched guests. Would you say that?

Alex: That's a that's a safe bet. You know, I actually saw on your website, you got somebody on the Jordan Harbinger show, which is like one of the biggest shows in the world. But I can tell you right now, like I know him personally, nobody who emails him ever gets on the show. Like it doesn't work that way, if you did that way, good for you, and on how you did that. But in general, he strictly has his list. And he's just going after that list, and everybody else is like, “sorry, I'm just not interested.” And yeah, a lot of those bigger shows especially or shows, they just make it really hard to contact them. It's because they don't want to be contacted. They've already got their plan, their strategy in place.

Anna David: Yeah, yeah. So they should just reach out. I actually have a pitch letter, maybe I'll put it in the show notes. Like the you can't lose pitch letter. I went through a phase where I was trying to get on podcasts to promote this podcast. But as I told you, I don't like going on podcasts that much. So I stopped but I pitched a couple and someone wrote me back and said, “This is the best pitch letter I've ever gotten.” So I actually have that as a sample. The reason that I know what to say is because I've gotten so many, mostly bad pitches, and then a couple amazing ones where I basically said, I don't care who you are, this pitch is so good. I need to have you on.

Alex: I love that you brought that up, because I have some people tell me, “oh, I tried the podcasting thing I just couldn't get on so people aren't interested.” And I've always asked, “can you show me what you sent them?” And it's like five or six paragraphs. And it's all like, I did this, then I did that and then on this and then on that. I'm like, who, just honestly, who wants to read that? I'm usually pretty honest with people. I'm like, oh, that's not interesting. To me this sounds terrible. I don't care. What I care about is what are you showing up with to add value to my audience? And I imagine your pitch, that I really hope you share with everybody, it has that side of it right? It has to, I imagine.

Anna David: Absolutely. It's all about what you can provide. What you see has been amazing but hasn't been provided, how much you'll share it. I always suggest reviewing the podcast and showing your screenshot because you know, there’s nothing a host wants more than a review,

Alex: I do the same thing and that at the end of the day, you're going to get a response if you do that. If a host doesn't even respond after you left them review and send it to them, then they're probably a jerk, and you don't want to be on that show anyway. But just that one tip alone. Because, again, one of the reasons that people don't get on shows is because they're pitching really terribly. And sometimes it's not even clear what they're after. So a host that's already busy and probably getting four or five others a day is just like, this is just another one for the recycle bin.

Anna David: Yeah what I will say, you know, 99% of the time, I'm getting pitches from publicists and I just delete them. I do not show them the respect of responding, because they have not shown me the respect of being at all clear on what my podcast is. So I have no issues with it. But literally, they're just pitching random people. Because my podcast has the word “entrepreneur” in it, they're just pitching entrepreneurs who don't have books, right? They’re just like, “hey, have my client on.” You know? Don't do that. 

Alex: That’s an important point. That's why I like websites like my own, Pod Match. But the others that are more of directories. Because you know, if a host put their show on these directories, or on these matching services, whatever you want to call them, they're actually looking for guest one, but two, they're trying to avoid the whole email thing. So you could go the email route and try to search their emails, and you'll find on their websites. You can also go the social media route, but the social media side, you're also blind to knowing if they're actually looking for a guest or not. And that's why at the very least, I recommend people to again, save your time. If the idea is to share about the book and get on shows, the time you spend looking for shows, doesn't really have a huge ROI, because not doing anything for you. You can also hire somebody to do it. But you're talking about those publicists that do that. And often they are just they're using the spray and pray method, they'll send it to 300 shows and hope that three get back to them. At the same time, they're kind of almost giving you a bad name, because your name is in every one of those emails. And eventually, someone's going to read that and be like, “oh, this is that really annoying guy always has people reach out on his behalf.” 

Anna David: Oh, it's happened to me. And, frankly, I've accepted maybe five or six pitches over the last couple of years. And they've never been my best guests, ever. My best guests are the ones where I go, I want this person, I'm going to get them. And you were one of them. 

Alex: And I appreciate that. I'm honored to be on that list.

Anna David: Yeah, because it's like, I know what the holes are and what I've explained to the audience, and I know who can fill them. I don't always know I know the hole, then I see someone I go, that's the person that can explain it the best. So, do you think when it comes to a book, it's crucial that those interviews are set up in timed to the book release? 

Alex: Not necessarily. I mean, that would be in a perfect world. I think that's probably ideal. And you may even know that better than I do, like going on a pre-launch tour could be really, really great. Right? I see people mess that up, though. This is why I'm not sure how it really works, is a book comes out in two weeks. They're like, cool, I need to go on some podcasts. Well, that episode is not-you're probably not recording it for another 30 days, it's probably not coming out for other 90 days. So you're going to miss your launch. Actually had somebody just the other day tell me “hey, my book comes out the end of August, I'm going to start the beginning of August getting on podcasts.” And I told them, “listen, it's time now.” I just think that's a really important thing. So for me, I don't know, because I see so few people get the launch timing correct. But have you? I'd love to just turn the question on you. Have you seen that work before? 

Anna David: It's very hard. It is very hard. Just for me personally even with that planning and you’ll say, “please don’t release this early, please don't release it until this week.” They always say yes and they always release it early because it's not even out yet. Right. And it's just it's just the reality. I once had a pitch to guest who I had on and I've had this like this horrible surgery, the week that it was released, and I released it and her publicist wrote me and said, “her books not coming out till next week, thoughts?” And I was like, “my thought is I just came out of really bad surgery and that's just how it is.” And she's like, “we need to change that thoughts?” And I was like, oh my God. My best advice I can ever give to anyone is never do that because it just makes me dislike the guest who was perfectly fine and not promote the episode. 

Alex: You bring up a good point here. I used to have an entrepreneurship show now everything I do is focused on podcasting. Like you said, I'm like podcasting through and through. I think if I start bleeding, it would just be podcasting at this point. But what I used to do because I had some run ins with like getting the timing right, because I wanted to help the guests because usually they're really great guests, right? Then their team comes in and it has to release on the stand like well, I only release on Tuesdays like it can't go on Thursday. They say it can't go out the Tuesday before, it can go out the Tuesday after. What I started doing is just telling the guests when they come on: if the book isn't out yet, like pretend like it's out. Like don't say preorder don't say prerelease, don't say any of that. Say the book is out, it's doing great. And here's where you can get it, basically. And I just found it takes all the pressure off me. Just make sure okay, this one's release date is after this date, because that's when it will launch. And the thing is even what comes out a week early, someone at the worst case, they're just going to see oh, a preorder link. Cool, right? Like, that's it, that's still okay. And then a week after that, because you want to be evergreen. Now, it is truly a live book. 

Anna David: And I will notice when I look at my download numbers, so many people are discovering these episodes long after they're out, I think, I don't know, because I haven't made a lot of effort to figure it out. But like, how many subscribers versus listeners and all that stuff. But it's there for life. So if it's a week early, please don't bug the host about that.

Alex: It's a good point. And I'm glad you brought this up too. Because I just think that, really, if you're going on your book tour, it doesn't need to be on a specific timeline, like you know, your books been out for a year at this point. If you haven't done it yet, you might as well go for it. I don't see that being a problem personally. 

Anna David: I don't at all. And I would say one of the major issues that I see are authors are so focused on the launch that they forget it's got a life and that the launch, sure it's important. In an ideal world, you've got all your ducks in a row. But it doesn't really matter. And I think the misconception comes from traditional publishing, which is so focused on the launch week, because once they have the launch week, they know which books they're going to put more resources behind. But if you're not doing traditional publishing, you can just keep promoting it for as long as you want.

Alex: Yeah. It's funny, you mentioned that because a guy that I know, his name's Brant, he released a book and a year later got on some podcast. He did want like the traditional publishing route. And one of them that he got on was like a multilevel marketing or direct sales guru. It was her podcast and all of her tribe listen. Anyway, I read the podcast and I guess she bought the book for everybody. It was like 1000 books, and they didn't have 1000 of them in stock. So like he was on my podcast next. He's like, “dude, I just sold out books like a year after it came out like 1000 books in one like one quick split second, everyone bought it.” And it's just like cool that book has-it's not like this was a day one thing this is a year later we're talking. So yeah, they're still life in that book. I hope that when anybody listening to this is writing a book, that you're not writing it just for today, you're writing it for the future and doing your best to keep it at least evergreen for as long as you possibly can, which means the lifecycle of your book can continue in years to come. 

Anna David: And speaking of that, I've barely talked about this on the show. But right now I'm in the process of writing a book based on these podcasts interviews, I asked the guests who are really providing value. So I'm going to ask you while you're being recorded, may I use this interview in my book?

Alex: Please do! That would be amazing. That would be so cool.

Anna David: I’m subtly telling you guys the most amazing book, I'm going to release it in 2023. But it's so exciting because I've had so many amazing guests. And I don't know if you've experienced this but it starts with podcasting and moves so fast. They're sharing gems, and I'm like, okay, next week's guest and then the next week's guest. And having these transcripts and taking them apart and putting them together in a book, I'm actually appreciating the ridiculous wisdom that I've been able to hear by doing this. It's pretty cool.

Alex: It's so cool, because we're just having a conversation. And I've always found this to be true. But conversations I've just had throughout my life, whether there's a microphone in front of you or not, is where you get some of the most insightful information that you can learn and apply in your life. Podcasting is simply putting a mic between two people having a great conversation. And I just think it's it sets up a position for powerful things to happen. I think it's why I believe the world is just primarily being served through podcasts these days. From an educational standpoint, people are learning growing and changing from what they're hearing through podcasts, because they're just a fly on the wall in what could be a really beautiful conversation. So I mean, I can't wait to pick up that book myself. Because I'm sure like you're saying, it's the fact that you do such a good job vetting your guests, it's going to be full of just all kinds of wisdom that I would love to learn personally.

Anna David: So good! So Alex, we have to wrap up, tell me, how can people find you? Oh, we did say, well, I want to get into this a little bit. So I said to you, I don't want to go on Pod Match. Because I don't want to be pitch guests, because I know who I want. And you're like, oh, it'd be interesting to talk about, what do you have to say about that?

Alex: Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, you can always say no, and if it brings you to somebody that you didn't realize existed, or that might just be that perfect guests that you're like, oh, there's this like, you're saying there's this like hole in my mind of like what we're looking for? Maybe it could fill it right. It could just be another avenue. But there's no harm in saying no. Granted, if you do have like a very strict, this is exactly where I'm going and there's no room then don't do it. And I believe I said that in our initial email that we had back and forth like, “hey, maybe it's just not the right fit.” But to me, I think it's always worth potentially discovering somebody who might not know how else to find you. Maybe it's just the connection method that that would work best. And that's kind of my thought on it. 

Anna David: Oh, but that reminds me of another thing. What about taking money for guests. You know, how do you feel about that? Does it take the quality of the podcast down?

Alex: I have found that it does. Some people maybe do it a little bit better. It's something that I've never done and really won’t. Even if my podcast was massive, I'm not going to do that. Because at the end of the day, I always say the same thing: seek to be a person of value, not a person of profit. If I just had you my podcast, because I'm like, well, can't get one to pay me but Anna said that she'd give me $500 so I guess I'll have her on the podcast. Without actually exploring the fact of is this really the right guest, I just took it because the money. Now I'm seeking to be a person of profit not a person of value. And as soon as you do that, I just find the quality of everything you do really starts to diminish. I believe that profit should be a byproduct of the quality that you add. I think a podcast is just again, one of most beautiful ways the world is being served and if you turn that into a profit machine, the podcast itself, I do believe in monetizing it, but not from the perspective of who you're bringing on the show. 

Anna David: Yeah, so people listening, if you're toying with that idea, it may not be the highest quality podcast. You know, who knows? I hear rumors that the huge podcasters take money, but who knows, who knows?

Alex: I want to stay out of that world. I don't know it very well. I know podcasting from an indie podcaster standpoint. But for the big shows, I learned a lot about the publishing space in the last couple of years that made me really sad to hear how many dollars move back and forth to make things appear on lists and stuff I didn't know about. And I'd hate to hear it if podcasting was the same way. So I'm going to sit here and be naive and just pretend like no, that's not the case but it probably is.

Anna David: Yeah, I think so. So, how can people find you, join Pod Match, all the things?

Alex: Yeah. So everything that I'm doing is at podpros.com, which is just the parent company of Pod Match. So you can find Pod Match there, you can find anything else I’m doing and all of my social links. But I really love what you're doing here with Entrepreneur Publishing Academy. I think this is a beautiful show. You've done such a good job bringing the right people on and I just recommend everyone keep on hanging out with Anna, you're really going to go places together here. And thank you again for having me. I really appreciate it.

Anna David: Thank you so much, Alex. And thanks y'all for listening.

CLICK ON ANY OF THE LINKS BELOW TO HEAR THIS EPISODE OR CLICK HERE TO GET THE POD ON ANY PLATFORM   

Sh*t You're Not Supposed to Write About with Zara Barrie: Trauma

 

Previous podcast guest Zara Barrie writes about all sorts of things you're not even supposed to talk about. And, well, so do I. That's why we decided to do a 10-week special that we'll be playing on both of our podcasts called Sh*t You're Not Supposed to Write About (well, it was supposed to be 10 weeks but then I realized one of them might destroy my life if released so it may be a Mandela Effect thing where we'll call it 10 episodes and then when you get to the 10th week and wonder where the last one is, we'll go, "What are you talking about? We always said it would be nine." And then you'll go back and read these words and not know what's real and what's not.) But enough of that. Please enjoy this episode on sh*t you're not supposed to write about: drugs.

Not sure I've ever gotten more honest than I have in these. Wish me luck. And let it be an inspiration for you to write about it ALL.

RELATED EPISODES:   

Sh*t You're Not Supposed to Write About with Zara Barrie: Drugs

Sh*t You're Not Supposed to Write About with Zara Barrie: Sex

Turning Online Readers Into Book Readers with Zara Barrie and Dayna Troisi 

CLICK ON ANY OF THE LINKS BELOW TO HEAR THIS EPISODE OR CLICK HERE TO GET THE POD ON ANY PLATFORM

The 5 Most Common Questions of First-Time Authors

 

Today, in this solo episode, I'm answering the five most common questions first-time authors have. They are:

Do I need a copyright for my book?
How many copies of my book will be printed?
If I launched a book, and I didn't sell many copies, should I relaunch it?
Should I sell my book only on Amazon?

Forgive me, that's four. I honestly thought when I recorded it that it was five. I am truly this bad with numbers. Good thing I can do words, no?

RELEVANT LINKS:  

Copyright.gov

My Identifiers

RELATED EPISODES:  

How Do I Re-Launch a Book?

Should I Hire a Company to Write and Publish My Book?

What I Learned From the Party Girl Re-Launch

CLICK ON ANY OF THE LINKS BELOW TO HEAR THIS EPISODE OR CLICK HERE TO GET THE POD ON ANY PLATFORM   

 

11 Reasons Every Entrepreneur Should Launch a Book

This solo episode is focused on the 11 main reasons an entrepreneur should launch a book. They are:

Less money spent on ads
Less money and time spent on client acquisition
Less money spent on PR
More effective podcast interviews
Less time spent creating content
Less time spent coming up with keynotes since they can come from the book
Less worrying about the competition, and wondering why someone else got the media hit or speaking gig
Numerous opportunities to impress the F out of everyone who hears your best selling author
Have the most impressive business card imaginable on you at all times
Jump to the front of the line
Be a hero to your family (cheesy but true!)

RELATED EPISODES:  

Mike Koenigs on Why You Need to Have a Product Embedded in Your Book

Cameron Herold on Generating Free PR and Creating a Vivid Vision for Your Book

How to Get on Podcasts to Promote Your Book with John Corcoran

CLICK ON ANY OF THE LINKS BELOW TO HEAR THIS EPISODE OR CLICK HERE TO GET THE POD ON ANY PLATFORM   

The 11 Main Reasons Every Entrepreneur Should Launch a Book

This solo episode is focused on the 11 main reasons an entrepreneur should launch a book. They are:

Less money spent on ads
Less money and time spent on client acquisition
Less money spent on PR
More effective podcast interviews
Less time spent creating content
Less time spent coming up with keynotes since they can come from the book
Less worrying about the competition, and wondering why someone else got the media hit or speaking gig
Numerous opportunities to impress the F out of everyone who hears your best selling author
Have the most impressive business card imaginable on you at all times
Jump to the front of the line
Be a hero to your family (cheesy but true!)

RELATED EPISODES:  

Mike Koenigs on Why You Need to Have a Product Embedded in Your Book

Cameron Herold on Generating Free PR and Creating a Vivid Vision for Your Book

How to Get on Podcasts to Promote Your Book with John Corcoran

CLICK ON ANY OF THE LINKS BELOW TO HEAR THIS EPISODE OR CLICK HERE TO GET THE POD ON ANY PLATFORM   

The 7 Biggest Mistakes First-Time Authors Make

 

This solo episode is focused on the seven biggest mistakes first-time authors make. They are:

Skimping on cover design
Not optimizing book descriptions
Not have a reason why/CTA
Slacking on editing
Not gathering reader reviews
Not getting that it's not about them
Listening to people who give bad advice once the book is written

Listen to get all the deets!

RELATED EPISODES:  

What Makes a Great Book Cover?

The Debut of Launch Pad with Dave Chesson

What's the Difference Between a Ghostwriter, Editor & Coach?

CLICK ON ANY OF THE LINKS BELOW TO HEAR THIS EPISODE OR CLICK HERE TO GET THE POD ON ANY PLATFORM   

How to Save Yourself From a Disastrous Book Launch with Scott Duffy

 

Scott Duffy is an entrepreneur and business strategist who's listed as a “Top 10 Speaker” by Entrepreneur and has been named one of the “Top Influential People To Follow” by Yahoo! Finance.

But that's not why I brought him on the pod. I brought him on because he's also the author of three different business books on three different topics, from three different publishers and launched in three entirely different ways. When I was at his mastermind a few weeks ago, he articulated why entrepreneurs should launch books in a way that was clearer than I'd ever heard. That's why I wanted him on the show but what I actually got out of our talk was so much more.

In this episode, we got into the importance of subtitles, why authors should be featured on their book covers and how his most recent book launch was a disaster.

RELEVANT LINKS: 

 

Scott's site

Scott's books

Scott speaking information

RELATED EPISODES:  

What I Learned From the Party Girl Re-Launch

What Book Would Help Build This Entrepreneur's Business?

Approaching Your Book Like It's a Business with Bonnie Habyan

TRANSCRIPT:

Anna David: Thanks for being here, Scott. 

Scott Duffy: Hi. Great to be here. 

Anna David: So you are a genius, and a genius and author. And also, as I was just telling you, someone who articulated what I have been trying to articulate for many years, and you just did it off the cuff. Well, let's talk about what you said that I loved so much.

Scott Duffy: So what happened was we were talking about, you and I were having this conversation in Park City. So, I was throwing an event we had, say, 50 entrepreneurs, small business owners there, and a whole bunch of them wanted to write books. But the challenge that I saw, which is a challenge I've seen, since the last, you know, 30 plus years they've been around this industry, is that most people don't know why they're writing a book. So, when we start a business, we write a plan, I always like to say start with the end in mind, right? Think about where it is that you want to be, what you're doing this for, and then back out a strategy. So what we were talking about was this, you know, I always ask people, are you writing a book, because you want to be a New York Times number one best seller, and you're willing to invest the time and the money in this project, because you believe it'll bring you a tremendous amount of business, whether that's in speaking fees, or in other ways that help you and your company to grow? Are you writing a book number two, because you want to have a business card, that you're able to hand out to everybody?

And this is like your introduction to them. And the strategy for doing that is much different, it costs a lot less to do, you're gonna have to your cost per book is going to have to be super low. So, you're going to be able to give away a lot of these books, right? Are you writing a book number three, because you want to, for example, build a list. So what you want to do is you want to have a book online, people enter an email address, or they enter a phone number, and then they're able to download your book in exchange for you being able to send them marketing messages. So, it's like, what is your strategy? What is the reason that you that you're doing this? And what you and I were talking about is like your client, that you primarily is writing because they want to hit? You know, they want to be that New York Times bestseller.

Anna David: Well, so these are, this is actually the way I remembered what you said, it's slightly different. When entrepreneurs write books for three reasons. One is the free plus shipping, or give away for free, basically, they want your email address is that it's my business card, but I kind of hope you don't read it. Like it's there. And you know that I did it, but there's probably tons of typos and stuff like that. And then the third is the legacy book. And I don't look at that as like the number one New York Times bestseller. You know, I don't believe in shooting for things that .00001% of the population can get the don't make a difference. Take it from someone who is a New York Times bestselling author and was borrowing money to pay my rent after I hit that list, is not a thing. So, to me, a legacy book is it does those things, those other two ideas do, but it's something you're proud of. It's I think the way you feel about your book for entrepreneur, maybe you feel that way about all three of your books. I don't I don't know, you tell me. Are they legacy books? 

Scott Duffy: No, they're one of them is one of them. Maybe two. So, the first book that I wrote was called How to Invest in Self Storage. And the reason I wrote that book is I, I had come from I've been in the tech industry, I'd had a series of kind of wins financial wins in the tech industry. And I wanted to, I decided I wanted to invest in real estate, and create passive income. And this is, this is a long time ago. And it's back before there was a self storage, you know, like a Public Self Storage where you put your stuff and you keep it. Like before those were on every corner. And before I'm a real data driven person. And so before I invested anything, I wanted information, I wanted to learn about what I was going to potentially invest in. And the challenges the self storage industry didn't have a lot of that. So in the just for perspective, in the self storage industry, there's like 50,000 self storage facilities in the United States. And the biggest owner of self storage facilities only owns 3% of the market.

So, the majority of the industry is people that just own a one or two, so it's a lot of mom-and-pop businesses, meaning you don't have big companies that are aggregating public data in order to share it, they don't have to do. So what I did is I went out there to talk to everybody, I could assemble all of my notes. And I'm like, if I want this, I'll bet there's somebody else that wants it, too. So, I went to the biggest publisher in the industry called Mini Co. And I said, What do you think? And so they said, We think that's a great job that doesn't exist out there. And so they helped me to hire an editor. And we put the notes together, we launched it. And I think to this day, it's the best selling book about self storage in the industry, which is kind of ironic. So I wrote that. I wrote that entirely, because I was trying to aggregate research. So, I could decide if this is a good decision to invest it in, like crazy. My second book was called Launch. Yeah. And that was a whole different process.

So, I wanted Launch to be a legacy book. And my goal was to make that a number one New York Times bestseller. And so I ended up getting an agent, she was amazing. We ended up selling that, that book to portfolio, which is a division of Penguin Publishing, working with the exact time and we were scheduled to be the number one like the big release for Thanksgiving weekend for the holidays that year, in business books. So here's the thing, I had never written a book like this. And I wanted the book to be written about how to scale a company. That was the goal. Okay, and this will come back, it'll be important. So I, because it was the first book I'd ever done for a publisher like that. They required that I have an editor. And they were very hands on in helping me determine who that editor was. And the editor was, he was that head of entrepreneurship, and those kinds of articles for one of the two biggest business publications in the world. So, we're thinking to ourselves, this is going to be a home run. 

Well, here's what happened, we had one year to write this book. So we started to work on it. And number one, he started to get all of these covers for that magazine. He had three while we were working together, so he would disappear. So, it just never really worked. It never really gelled. I kept going back to the publisher saying, I need more time, or I need different help. And they kept saying no, no, no, just every entrepreneur goes to this. Every writer goes through this. Just put your head down. It didn't work. Until one day, the book, it just was so bad. It was so bad. And nobody would listen. Yeah, I wrote a text actually was a I wrote an email to the head of Penguin portfolio. And the subject was in all caps. This book fucking sucks. Okay, I wrote this book fucking sucks. Because I had to get somebody's attention. Yeah, he was on vacation in Mexico. He called me right away. He said, this book does suck. You're right, we need to make a change.

And he said, the change starts with you. And it's really important for authors for writers, that change starts with you. He said, We'll do our part, we're going to help find you another editor. But what do you really know about what you're writing about? You see, my core competency had always been launching companies taking ideas from idea to market. And he said, What would naturally just kind of pour out of you. And it would be those stories versus the stories about growth and scale. So, what it is I sat down, I was so by the way, depressed after that call, I'm like, shit, now I got to change the book. I got to change the title. I got to figure this out. We don't have much time. And what happened in a is I went home that night, and I was talking to my ex wife was looking at my kids. And she said, Well, what if the book wasn't about like, you weren't doing it for yourself? Who would you do it for? And they said, You know what, I would use this book to tell my kids who their dad was. That's what I would do. That became the purpose. 

And then over the next six weeks, I started from scratch. And I wrote every word of the book from front to back.

Wow, in the book was called Launch and it was all about doing what I really knew. And so for me, that was a big lesson. And I think that, you know, when you're writing a book, it's really important not to focus on what you think is going to make money or what you think is going to do something you've got to focus on what it is that you know, it naturally comes to you. Because those are the stories. And those are the lessons that will truly connect with an audience. And so, I think, you know, that's kind of what kind of what happened. 

Anna David: But don't you think it's where what you know, meets what you know your audience wants? Don't you think? 

Scott Duffy: I think that if you're writing about seeing this is the mistake I made, I was trying to write. See? Okay, I have to answer your question. I have share the story. The day the book was published, and I got my first copy, got my first hardcopy, I drove up to one of my mentors, houses. And he was gonna be the person first person I gave it to. He was like ADA, an iconic venture capitalist. And I walked up to him, he said, I got the book I've been telling you about, you get the first copy. He said, would you sign it? And I signed it. And he looked at the cover. And he said, your book is called Launch? And I said, Yes. He said, “You're gonna he broke.” That's what he said to me. And they said, Why would you say that? He said, “Scott, you have to make a decision. Before you do anything in business? Do you want to have a rich customer or a poor customer?” And he said, “if you're talking to people that are launching companies, they're probably broke, or at least they don't have a lot of free cash, because they're investing everything they can into this business.”

He said, “So you can be the very best in the world writing this book or doing what you do. But if you're going to have a poor customer, you'll be broken because they can't afford to pay you.” He said, “Where would you rather have a rich customer?” And I said, “Well, these are the stories I know how to tell.” He said, “If you told them just a little bit differently, what you know, they would appeal to that person too.” So that was a really big shift. I wouldn't I wouldn't try and in invent. First of all, I would get really clear on who my target is. And can they afford to pay me what I want them to pay me? Number one. And number two, I would focus on the content that they really know and understand. And if I have to tweak that a little bit, to make it relevant for a different market, I would do that. But I wouldn't start from scratch. I wouldn't try and lie, or not stretch the truth about what I was really good at. 

Anna David: Did you rewrite it after he said that? Or you just said, fine. You leave it?

Scott Duffy: I said, Fuck. Are you serious? I'm like, are you serious? And by the way, it was it was it was really awful. For me, my stomach, like his I love I love this man. And so to my feet, and I was so embarrassed, you know, but it was the right lesson for me at the right time. I actually, it was the right lesson for me. It would have been great if the timing was a little different.

Anna David: It was the right lesson at the wrong time. But also, the Jeff Walker book Launch was already out or? 

Scott Duffy: No, so Jeff and I were talking so Jeff. So, Jeff was working on lunch while I was working on launch and a mutual friend Travis Euston put us together because Travis was in the product launcher world. And so Jeff and I talked by the way, in our books came out like the same month. In there's two things I learned from that experience. Number one, you can't trademark the title of a book. So a lot of people will seek see that they can stay claim to a title, you can't trademark that right. What I learned is the most valuable part of selling a book is the subtitle. And that was just what Jeff and I talked about. He said, We can both have the same title. It can look the same way it can be identical. But your subtitle has to talk to your market. And my subtitle has to talk to my market. And that was a really big lesson for me.

Anna David: That's so interesting. I think yes, I don't want to interrupt you. But I do think it depends on the book. I think there are subtitles where you don't the reader doesn't even notice what the subtitle is. A short title, absolutely. And especially like your subtitle is no pun intended, critical. But I don't think that's always the case. I think it is true in this case. Okay, so keep going. 

Scott Duffy: I think that the subtitle really has, because if you're in a bookstore, I mean, I don't know how many people but when Launch came out, people are still going to bookstores, if you're in a bookstore, and then your target customer is looking at a shelf and they're skimming. You only have a few seconds for them to know if that's the book, right? So what attracts the verse, it's going to be the color and the font, the positioning on the shelf, who you're around or who you next to. By the way, when I wanted to sell more. I went into every bookstore I could wherever I was, I moved my book next to Gary Anarchic. I moved in next to whoever was hot at that time. You got to do that. You got to have a little bit of Sara Blakely from Spanx in you.

Anna David: And nobody stopped you. Right. That's gonna stop you. You're like an affable big dude. Nobody's going to be like, ah, that guy stopped the guy moving the books. You just did it, right?

Scott Duffy: No, I did. And here's the thing, the people in the bookstore couldn't care less, because they just want to sell books. Right? So, I did, I would take pictures. Yeah. So I learned about the importance of a subtitle learn about the importance of the impact that your cover, and that needs to have in a very short period of time. Yeah. So that if two people are looking at books like and so and when, when the subtitle for Launch was the critical 90 days from idea to market. And the reason was, our publisher had research showing that in the next year, having a number in the subtitle was going to be like the thing. So they actually did that.

Anna David: I mean, the publisher research...you don't even want to hear my rants about traditional publishing. So it sounds like that was a great learning experience, but not necessarily a wonderful publishing experience.

Scott Duffy: It was a terrible publishing experience. It was awful. It was incredibly stressful. The book fizzled, because by the time, by the time it came out, I was so burned out from the project. I just I had no energy or desire to go out into to promote it the way the way that you should do, you know. 

Anna David: Me too. And so, the next one, you said, "This is going to be different." Right? Is that what you said for your most recent book?

Scott Duffy: Well, I actually said, "I'm never going to do this again," first. That's what I said, I'll never do this again. And then what happened was, I had a video series called Business and Burgers. And we would go, I would travel across the country, Alan Taylor, and I, and we would go the awesome burger places. And we would interview entrepreneurs like Daymond John, and people like that, over burgers and sides, and it was a blast. And we ran about 45 episodes of that show. And while that show was airing, I was contacted by Entrepreneur Magazine, and they said, you know, the publishing group, Entrepreneur Books, really enjoyed the first book and didn't understand why it didn't get bigger pickup. And they said, "What if we went in and we updated the book, and we updated the stories, and we added some more connective tissue, would you be open to that?" And so that's what we did. Now, the problem that I ran into in this circumstance was a disagreement about the title and the subtitle.

So, here's the thing. If you read the breakthrough book, the title and subtitle don't tell you what's in it. So you don't know what you're buying. And so that was a big disconnect. And that hurt. And I'm just sharing I mean, yeah, I'm committed to sharing the good and bad of everything, you know. And so what I learned is I was much happier with the book itself, but I think that the title and subtitle got in the way of it, and so we're actually in the process of redoing that with new stories. And I can't show the title yet, but it's very descriptive to come out next year. 

Anna David: Okay, wait, stop. Breakthrough is your brand. So I would think that that's the perfect title for you. Well, so 

Scott Duffy: Here's what I learned. Breakthrough is a brand. But if you are a personal brand, your name has got to be your brand. And that was a lesson for me. It was a lesson for me because my brand was Launch. Oh, no, no, no, it's not. My brand is Breakthrough. Oh, no, no, it's not. I'm in education, technology. I'm working on a book right now. Right education, right, is that Lybrand? No, my brand is Scott Duffy. And so, for me, that was a that was a that was a real big. That was a real big lesson. And I think it's interesting, because if I used to be back in the day, you're too young for this, but it used to be when I was starting in the industry. The way you got to know somebody and see who they were, was there was a one inch by one inch picture on the back cover of the book. Yeah. So like when I worked for Tony Robbins back in 1990, right. The way anyone got to see him before the infomercial was he had a book and on the back there was the picture. That was it. I think that as it relates to books, and today when personal branding is so important, I am an advocate of putting your picture on it somewhere, you know, on the cover. Yeah, because you are the brand. And I'd be curious to see to hear what you have to say about that.

Anna David: You know, it's very interesting that you say that I'm a narcissist, and I'm very vain. So, I think I should not just be on the cover of all my books, but on every book, and yet I've never done it. 

Scott Duffy: Why not?

Anna David: Out of fear of being judged as vain. And all also I really vacillate between, is it my experience? Or do you? You know, it's sort of like that idea about marketing, change all your eyes to use, make your stories. Imagine yourself that, you know, I don't I don't know the answers. I do this. Because every book, I learned more, I mean, I think I approach it a lot like you do, it's like, but I also have to, so that I can stay on the cutting edge for my clients. So I mean, I'm kind of excited. I'm like feeling something inside, like, ooh, could I go on the cover my next book, but I don't know. So you didn't do that. So, this is how you feel now, you didn't do it before?

Scott Duffy: That's how I feel now. And like in terms of change, you know, a change in approach, one thing that I did really learn what was the Breakthrough that I really loved. versus the way I wrote Launch the way we're Launch, is I literally sat behind a computer all day, and just wrote, and then what I would do is I would write a chapter, I would send it to an editor. The next day, the editor would send it back, I make corrections. And then we move to the next. Now, I'd like to say that I wrote a chapter every day that in practice, it doesn't work that way, you know, some take longer than others. But that was kind of like what the flow was, with Breakthrough the flow changed. So, with Breakthrough, what I started to do is I love to move and I love to be active. So I downloaded an app called Rev. And I actually wrote a lot in the book while I was walking. So I would be walking, or I would be in the gym or whatever. And I'd record on Rev. And then what we would do is I hit play, and then when I was done, I would I would I would have that translated, right? And then or whatever the word is, yeah, yeah, you transcribe, it would go. By the time I was back from the gym, or my walk, or my run, or whatever it was, it would be in my inbox, I would send that to an editor. And the editor would then organize it and compile the thoughts in there was my chapter. What was really cool about that also is, once that was done, I can take that I could turn that into a blog, quote boards, a million other things. So I highly recommend if you're not the kind of person that wants to sit behind a computer all day, leverage a tool like Rev. If you're a blogger, and you're in the car, just talk about what you're thinking, and boom, you're done.

Anna David: Here's what I want to say about that. Yeah, and I'm this is not like, this is not sucking up, you speak the way a lot of people try to write you just are naturally like that, I do not think that works for everybody. And I say that because we've had clients who have said, oh, I'm just gonna send over my like brain dumps. And it is very hard for us to make that into written material, it is far more effective for us to interview them, I think somebody interviewing you is going to be more effective. However, if you're like Scott, and you've got the gift of the gab, then I do think that can work more effectively. But sometimes you are making an editor's job hard if you do it like that.

Scott Duffy: Okay, so a couple thoughts on that, because you're right. I think an interview is like the gold standard. If you can get interviewed, I mean, like that's freakin awesome. I think, if you're a speaker, a professional speaker, it can really be a challenge. And you got to learn to get better when you're dictating. And the reason is, speaker can just talk forever, and say nothing. They're really awesome at it. Right? So, it's almost like you got to get that inner Tik Tok voice working in you where you got like, eight seconds to a minute, or whatever it is. Yeah, you got to learn how to talk in shorter in shorter sound bites. And so, I think I've seen that with speakers. When I wrote Launch, the way I would tell a lot of the stories because the way I teach is story based; the way I would tell a lot of the stories was almost like dictating a speech. And this is really important for right for people who want to be authors. The way you speak at people, right when you're onstage, is different than the way people read. It's really important.

If you just gave them a speech, they're not going to get through if you give them something like should be written about. Totally different. The other thing is if you're hiring an editor, this is a lesson I learned in Launch. The person that we used was a magazine editor. Okay. So think about this. They were exceptional at writing things that were really short, and it stood on their own So if you're writing a book, and you need an editor for a book, you need somebody that understands basically how to craft a story that builds as it goes, right? And where there's connective tissue from one thing to the next. So, when I wrote Launch, and I was dealing with that first editor, the reason the book didn't work is everything was totally disjointed, like a bunch of articles. So, it's really important to know, you know, you got to have like, the perfect target avatar of who your writer or your editor is, in order to have a book be as successful as you want it to be. 

Anna David: The good news is that most magazines have gone under. So most magazine editors have transitioned into being book editors, I came up as a magazine editor. And then I learned to edit books, because you know, necessity is the mother of invention, you just learn, right? But that's great. That's a great tip. So let me ask you what have and we got to get close to wrapping up? Tell me what these books have done for your career?

Scott Duffy: Well, I mean, they done a number of things, I think that the one thing they did is they helped me to, actually, I'll tell you what the most important thing is, the most important thing that they've done is they've helped me to develop a business philosophy that became like, I was successful doing things. And I didn't necessarily know how I was doing them. I thought I did. But what I did is I was able to, like codify my superhero power, right. And I think that that's incredibly powerful. And if you want to be a great speaker, you want to be great at growing an audience on social media, you want to be great at building a personal brand, I think you really unmeet to understand who you are, what you stand for, and how you get to the results that you get to. And so, this really helped me to learn that, and it helped me to find where there were holes in what I did, where I really needed to, like grow myself.

And I really worked on those areas when writing the book. In fact, on the book breakthrough, I added a section on growth and scale. But instead of doing it myself, I went to a friend of mine named Rolan Frasier, who is exceptional at scaling a company, and almost made those chapters more like interviews, where we talk back and forth. And the way we positioned it is here's how we work with this company. Here's how we work with that company. So the content was organic, it was authentic, but I couldn't have done it on my own. But when I was done with it, I'm like, I understand that now I can really help a company in that area now. So, in addition to a branding tool, it was like a growth hack for me as well.

Anna David: I love that. I love that. Because it's kind of like I think a lot of successful people. They can't teach what they do. Because they don't know how they did it. It was so organic. It was when I started teaching that I'm like, oh, I got to figure out how did I write a book? I don't know, I just did it. So, I think that I've never heard someone say that, the book is the opportunity for you to drill down and articulate. How did you do this? How can your reader do this? And so, and in terms of business, in terms of speaking, I mean, you were already killing it on the speaking circuit, but what difference has it made in your business?

Scott Duffy: You know, I think the book, it enabled me to market myself in the bigger companies was one of those things. So it's one thing to have a personal brand, it's one thing to have success with companies that you're a part of. And for me, many of those were big media companies, big media brands, but having your codified philosophy, bad how you did it. I think, you know, that really helped me to open to open more doors. You know, I feel today that the book is like it's a learning tool for us as authors. But I think that as a door opener, it's incredible. It's just you need to get clear as to which doors you want to open. Do you want to open the door of somebody hiring a speaker in a fortune 500 company? Or do you want to open the door of an entrepreneur that wants to learn how to create sales funnels? 

So, if I were to share with anybody, like if somebody said to me, where do I start? And so, we'll start by getting clear on what you want the end result to be and my second step would be create the perfect avatar of who it is that you want to speak to. And the more narrow you go, the more successful you're going to be. Because if you try to talk to everybody, you're not going to connect with anybody. The riches are really in the niches and when it comes to writing and when it comes to author when it comes to putting out a book, if you nail who your target audience is, I mean from the beginning. You're gonna be on fire. 

Anna David: Yeah. Yeah. You are fantastic Mr. Duffy; how can people find you? 

Scott Duffy: Go to Scottduffy.com. There, or you can you can find me on social media at Scott Duffy media across all the platforms. 

Anna David: I love it. Thank you, Scott. Thanks, you guys for listening. I'll talk to you next week. 

CLICK ON ANY OF THE LINKS BELOW TO HEAR THIS EPISODE OR CLICK HERE TO GET THE POD ON ANY PLATFORM   

How to Get Over Yourself and Just Promote Your Book with Jerry Stahl

 

Jerry Stahl is the iconic author of Permanent Midnight (made into a movie starring Ben Stiller), among nine other books (among them, OG Dad, Pain Killers, I, Fatty, Perv, Plainclothes Naked, Happy Mutant Baby Pills, Bad Sex on Speed and his latest, Nien Nien: One Man's Tale of Depression, Psychic Torment, and a Bus Tour of the Holocaust).

A Pushcart Prize–winning author, Stahl’s work has appeared in Esquire, Vice, The Believer, Tin House, Los Angeles Review of Books and the New York Times, among other places.

He also wrote the HBO movie Hemingway & Gellhorn (which earned a Writers Guild Award nomination), Bad Boys II and the cult classic Dr. Caligari and has written on the TV shows Maron, CSI and Escape at Dannemora (for which he received an Emmy nomination).

So you get it; he's done a lot. So why does he hate promoting his work so much? And how does he promote his work in spite of that? Find out in our spirited, sarcastic and deeply salacious (no, it's not salacious, I was just in the mood to be alliterative) interview.

RELEVANT LINKS:  

Jerry's latest book

Jerry's interview with the Village Voice

RELATED EPISODES:  

10 Free Ways to Promote a Book

How to Get on Podcasts to Promote Your Book with John Corcoran

CLICK ON ANY OF THE LINKS BELOW TO HEAR THIS EPISODE OR CLICK HERE TO GET THE POD ON ANY PLATFORM   

The Business of Being a Writer with Jane Friedman

 

Jane Friedman is an icon in the publishing space. With over two decades of experience in the business, she is truly considered the world's leading expert on traditional publishing, self publishing and where the twain shall meet. She's the curator of The Hot Sheet, a biweekly paid newsletter, oversees a wildly popular blog and is also the author of The Business of Being a Writer.

In this episode, we discussed how important it is to know what you want your book to do for you, how to get bookstores interested in hosting you, the biggest changes in the publishing industry over the past year and so much more. 

RELEVANT LINKS:

Jane's blog

The Hot Sheet

The Business of Being a Writer site

RELATED EPISODES:  

What Your Non-Fiction Book Needs with Elizabeth Lyons

How Do I Arrange Readings for my Book?

Talking About Your Book on TV and Podcasts with Media Coach Susan Harrow 

TRANSCRIPT:

Anna David: Well, thank you so much for being here, Jane, I really appreciate it.

Jane Friedman: My pleasure.

Anna David: One thing, I have actually spoken about you on this show before and one of the conversations I recently had about you was with Elizabeth Lyons, and we were talking about how much we both love that you, you don't pick a side. You are really right there, you can't go well, Jane is very true. She's all for tradition but no, no, no, she's all for self publishing. So would you say that's accurate that you haven't picked aside?

Jane Friedman: Absolutely. And I am glad you have noticed that. I hope everybody notices that I like the 360 degree view. And I've experienced stories or met with enough authors that I know that there isn't like a right side to publishing paths. Everyone's position and needs are unique. 

Anna David: Yeah, I love it. This is the quote from your said, I love it. “I've been working in book publishing since the 1990s, but my views are not from the 1990s.” So what would you say because it's changing so quickly? How would you say traditional publishing has changed the most in the past year? So right now we're recording this in June of 2022. What would you say is the most significant change in the past year?

Jane Friedman: The supply chain issues have gotten worse. I mean, they were bad a year ago. But I know it seems insane. But it's getting worse. And I think that a lot of publishers are struggling to get their printing time to get their paper and to do the things to have a normal publishing schedule. And I think it's just creating a lot of stress. So that's one piece. Another piece is labor issues. So there are a lot of people as we're coming out of the pandemic, knock on wood, that are reevaluating their priorities. And the pandemic has resulted in a wake up call for a lot of people about work life balance. And so we're seeing a lot of discussion about how to treat publishings workers. I have no idea where that's going to fall out. But we'll see what happens.

Anna David: And in terms of the supply chain issues, it almost feels like being in traditional publishing, it's more of a concern, because, you know, Amazon and print on demand those that, you know, they are just printing every night, right? 

Jane Friedman: Right. So print on demand is a bit of a different animal, traditional publishers are using print on demand to fill in the gaps. But because of all of these supply chain crunches, prices are going up, it's probably going to result in higher book prices for everybody. Some people listening may have already noticed higher prices on books, and POD prices are going up too. So even self publishing authors are affected by this.

Anna David: But it's not really affecting the speed a little bit. I am noticing right now that Amazon KDP has had just kind of exquisite customer support for years. And now it's like Sorry, there's a delay in there. There are no explanations. There's just excuses, which is unusual for such amazing tech support.

Jane Friedman: Yes, I see and hear a lot of varied experiences with Amazon, it's really hard to understand what's going on behind the scenes, because one person will have a smooth problem free experience and others are just banging their head against the wall. So yeah, it's hard to comment on Amazon's customer service given the variety of diversity of the experience.

Anna David: So one of the things that I have always felt very aligned with you on is this idea about writers and making a living there are these ideas like oh, I just, you know, we all think it's gonna be different for us. We all think it Yeah, yeah, no one can make a living, whatever, it's gonna be different for me. What do you think is the best way for a writer to make a living? 

Jane Friedman: If it's your first book, The Living isn't likely to come from book sales alone. Now, you may have received a really ginormous advance, which might keep you afloat for a while. But I would say that most authors if they're making a living, it's through ancillary activities related to that book. So for nonfiction authors that could be speaking and consulting. Things that grow their business footprint. If it's fiction, it gets a little bit tougher. So usually, then you're getting into services where you're helping people with less experience. Come up the ladder, so you're providing editing services or marketing services, things that maybe you've become an expert for children's authors, classroom visits and speaking engagements can be very important and provide additional revenue. Some writers are great freelance writers, although some of those opportunities have been drying up just because of the state of the media and magazine industry.

Anna David: I'm interested in, so you really would say your main business is the Hot Sheet? And if so when did it become clear, this is my main business, everything else is adjunct?

Jane Friedman: It's probably about a third of my business. The bulk of my business is online education. So running one time webinars is where I earn most of my income. And then book sales would probably be less than 5%. At this point. Yeah. As far as where I recognized the hot sheet would become the size it is today. I mean, I think I knew all along, just because of my experience in the industry, that it could be basically the entirety of my business if I chose to focus on it to the exclusion of all else, but I like variety. I don't want to do just one thing. Yeah.

Anna David: Yeah. It's interesting, because it was my first introduction, it was, you know, before Substack existed, I was like, wait, you charge for a newsletter. And now it's become so commonplace. But I'm very intrigued by it. So it's, you know, anybody? Because it is everyone I know who reads it, it's if you open it right away, it's all these? How do you do it? How is it you and your husband work on it, you have a team that works on it, I know you have original reporting in it. So you have freelancers and all of that.

Jane Friedman: Most of the writing gets done by myself. So it's my writing, reporting and research, then I have a freelance copy editor who goes through all of the content, does the fact checking and style and you know, fixing grammatical errors. And then my husband who does work for me in the business, he does what I consider the production, which is you know, loading it all into the MailChimp system and then doing customer service. So you know, when people have deliverability issues, or we need to invoice someone, or people aren't, you know, whatever the issue is, for the reader, he's there to take care of it.

Anna David: And how are you finding all of those stories? Is it just your voraciousness in terms of researching them? You have Google Alerts, you're going to events? How are you doing it?

Jane Friedman: Well, it's somewhat incestuous, because I read a ton of newsletters to make my own newsletter, right? And, but, you know, I've been studying industry publications, you know, since the early 2000s. So I obviously subscribed to all of the main industry outlets like Publishers Weekly, the Bookseller's Shelf Awareness, Publishers Lunch, I could go on. But there are lots of others like publishing adjacent newsletters that are super helpful, and that I'm always scanning for bigger picture trends, like related to Substack, or to advertising, or serial reading and writing apps. So the publishing world is very multifaceted. Some people call it, you know, two dozen industries and one and so that always gives me a lot of fuel for the fire.

Anna David: So I'm curious, what would you call it? How would you define success for a book? I know it depends on the author, but what would you consider a, quote, successful book?

Jane Friedman: If it's my personal definition, what would success mean, for me publishing a book, it's going to raise my profile and more strongly identify me with a specific message or a specific audience that I want to be known by. So in my last book, The Business of Being a Writer,  my goal was to strongly associate myself with writers interested in the business. And I would say by that measure, it's been a success. It's also been for the publisher of financial success. So there will be a second edition, which I happen to be working on now. Another one of my goals was to get to writers early in their journey. So I really wanted to see the book adopted by professors in MFA programs or undergraduate writing programs. And that's one of the reasons that I worked with the University of Chicago Press on that book, because they have the clout and the ability to get books into classrooms. So again, I would say check mark on that, because it is being used by those programs. 

Anna David: Do you think a writer should go into a book knowing this is what success would look like for me?

Jane Friedman: Oh, yes. It just affects the writing and the development of the book to know why are you spending time doing this thing that is basically going to pay you pennies on the hour? Or maybe even like a percentage of a penny on the hour. So you have to really be clear and honest with yourself about what you would like to see happen. That's hopefully not related to sales, which you have no control over.  To some extent, you have no control over it.

Anna David: And how could someone know if their idea is good or not?

Jane Friedman: I think it really goes back to your understanding of who you're writing for a lot of people are writing, not in a bad way for themselves, and they haven't really thought about, okay, who is the ideal reader for this? Whose life am I trying to change? Who am I speaking to, that really needs to hear this message or story or benefit from this information? And by either planning the book or writing the book with that person in mind, it helps avoid going too broad trying to include everyone or serve all audiences, which is a classic mistake. And just dig into the people that you think will be most likely to read it and the easiest for you to reach. 

Anna David: It's so interesting, because I come from traditional publishing. Why did they ever say that? Why did that never come up in all those meanings? No one ever said that, six books. Do you know what I mean?

Jane Friedman: I do know what you mean. I mean, I think this is a problem primarily with the more literary and publishing or, especially in New York publishing, where there's a lot of respect for personalities and people's gut instinct. And there's this overriding myth, neither good nor bad, that no one knows what books are gonna sell. And they were just going to throw it all at the wall and see what sticks. And if you are making decisions by gut instinct, then yeah, that sort of thinking makes sense. But I actually started working at a publishing company that did market research. And it was my first responsibility, in my first year on the job to do that market research into certain segments. And we had book clubs where we could survey our members and say, which of these books do you want to buy next? And so that really disciplined me early that you can find out the answers to what people want, and you can develop books that have a waiting audience, but that is not normal for most of big publishing. 

Anna David: Why do you think that they are so anti research? 

Jane Friedman: I don't think typically, there haven't been departments devoted to it, you would have to actually hire and market research people. And again, there's this art commerce tension, you know, although I think that's changed a lot more in the last 10 to 20 years, especially with the advent of Amazon, which showed, oh, look, if you pay attention to some data and analytics, and you measure the audience, it has results. So I do think there are more people in marketing departments at big publishers today that are involved in marketing analytics, but still, that it's hard to change that culture.

Anna David: Yeah, I mean, and I think it's sort of like will they know those big hits, they're going to hit so big, if it's a JK Rowling or Brene Brown, or whatever it is, that they don't need to bother, because we're gonna, you know what I mean, we're going to be okay, in the end, like, even though we're going to lose money on on 99% of these. I mean, that's how it feels to me. 

Jane Friedman: It can feel that way. And, it's really sad for the authors, you know, of those books, who aren't, you know, inevitably they're disappointed by performance. And they think their publisher could have done more, and maybe the publisher could have.

Anna David: Yeah, it's interesting now that I'm on this side of it. And I remember speaking to a publicist, and she told me what I always suspected, she had been an in-house published publicist at a big five publishing company. And she's like, you just kind of had to avoid those authors that you weren't doing anything for. Because what are you going to tell them? Like, you don't matter? But the author feels it. It's almost I don't know, I guess it's good. If someone had sent that to me, I would have been really upset. But since it really is, you know, each author is really in it for his or herself. What do you think? What do you think is the most crucial thing to do all authors need to have Newsletter Lists? 

Jane Friedman: Well, it is like the number one most powerful sales and marketing tool hands down. There is nothing in my mind. That's a better asset to have that protects you from the changes happening. If your publisher drops you if your agent dies, if you know, whatever happens, you've still got that direct connection to your readers. I always hesitate to say, you know, you must and there is no other way, but it is one of the best insurance policies against change in the industry. And certainly we're seeing now with the growing privacy protections through social media or Apple. They're coming on Google too, that It makes those channels less effective, it makes the advertising less effective. And if you hear people inside publishing talking today, even at traditional publishers, they're trying to beef up what they call their first party data, which is their direct experience of selling to readers and that often through email, and not through their own website. And of course, Amazon's not sharing any data. So that's really incumbent on whether it's the author or publisher to figure out who those readers are, and reach them without depending on a third party. 

Anna David: Even when people go, Well, emails dead, who opens email anymore? It's just simply not true?

Jane Friedman: It's not true.

Anna David: In terms of social media, you know, one of the most fascinating things and I know you definitely covered it, but was that New York Times story about a year ago that said, like, “Okay, here we go, if publishers had been, you know, really prioritizing social media, but Billie Eilish has millions of subscribers.” And she sold, I think it was under 60,000 copies, and Justin Timberlake, you know, over five years under 100,000 copies. So what is it with social media? Will you explain how it matters and how it doesn't matter? 

Jane Friedman: Well, it is really like, big stories that you see in the New York Times that look at this issue, the one that you mentioned, is a particularly fascinating one, because I don't see any evidence that the publishers were actively collaborating with those celebrity authors to use their social media platform to help sell books. So if the author themselves haven't kind of brought people in, and you know, taking them along on the journey, and themselves being excited about the book and talking about it, of course, there's not going to be any sales of it. So the publisher just can't sit back and wait for the social media numbers to do their job. There has to be an actual engagement, surprise. The other thing that I think people miss about this distinction is that, for example, on Tik Tok, we have the book talk phenomenon, which is indeed selling tons of books. It's responsible for the bulk of fiction sales growth this year, and last year. But is it the author's themselves doing that? Not really, it's the influencers and other people who are just excited to talk about and recommend books. So social media, in that instance, does sell books, but it's because of community engagement and enthusiasm. It's not because the author amassed some enormous Tik Tok following, although I will say, there are some authors like Colleen Hoover, who are wonderful at using Tik Tok. And, you know, using it for engagement in order to boost visibility and boost sales, but you can't tell someone who's a debut author? Yeah, go get on Tik Tok. And that will ensure sales? It does not.

Anna David: I mean, that's the thing. I'll talk to people and they go, Well, I really need to focus on that. And it's true, but Oh, my God, is it a? It’s a day in day out slog, I do think it works. I think anyone who's listening, you know, you don't have to go like I had Tik Tok up. Find your path, find your thing. Try to make it fun. That thing that makes you creative. When everything in you says this is sick, this is social media? Well, you're a creative find a way to make it fun is  sort of where I stand with that. But you don't think writers have to be on social media?

Jane Friedman: I think you make your life increasingly difficult as an author if you don't use anything whatsoever. It's possible. I've seen authors do it. Yeah. But you're, I think you're making your life harder. And so it's not a path I recommend, unless you just feel like for whatever reason that it's just going to drain you and take away and the negatives are going to really outweigh the positives.

Anna David: How important do you think media attention is for an author?

Jane Friedman: It's increasingly hard to get because the number of media outlets covering books has diminished over time. And it's one of the number one things you're going to hear a publishing industry say is that media outlets don't cover books like they used to. Part of this has to do with the socio-political environment. Certain presidents who have been in office, climate change, gun violence, like there are a lot of things competing for people's attention, particularly right now when we feel like the world is on fire. And it also raises questions for writers themselves about why am I producing art or talking about my book, when there are these apparently very serious issues in the world today. But that doesn't directly answer your question. I'm just talking about how hard it is. But I think any marketer or publicist would tell you that right now, part of the game is just keeping visibility consistent over a long period of time. So to the extent that you can get some media hits, even if there's from a smaller outlet That's to keep the ball rolling. The larger the number of impressions, the more likely you're going to get sales over time. It usually doesn't happen with the first impression unless we're talking about someone who already knows you. And has been waiting for your book to come out.

Anna David: But also seeing how your book relates to the news. And obviously, that's not always the case with fiction. It's not easy. But but with nonfiction, you know, there again, it's using your creativity to find a way like, well, how does the business of being a writer fit into what's what? That's what we figure out, we’re creative people?

Jane Friedman: Yes, you have to find those links between what people are talking about, what's in the Zeitgeist, and what's in your book.

Anna David: Do you think there's particular media hits that really moved the needle? Obviously, Terry Gross. But are there others? I mean, I know from personal experience, like being on Good Morning America, Today show that doesn't necessarily result in book sales.

Jane Friedman: That's correct. The big favorite right now is CBS Sunday Morning, because they actually give the author a good seven or 10 minutes to talk about the book. And so people like to have an opportunity to really kind of sink into who this author is and what they're concerned about. Whereas the other morning shows, I don't know how long those segments are, but they're really short. Other things, any sort of celebrity book club or influencer book club. So this includes Reese Witherspoon, Jenna Bush, retailer book clubs, the Barnes and Noble, they all have these pics, and those are all super helpful.

Anna David: Do you have any tips for getting attention from those celebrity book clubs?

Jane Friedman: I mean, unless you already have an existing connection, I don't know that I would recommend trying to knock on those doors. It's really something that's facilitated through your publisher.

Anna David: Yeah, yeah. Do you recommend book tours?

Jane Friedman: I think they can still be super useful, but you have to be strategic about it. And there's probably going to be some sort of hybrid tour from now on out. So you'll do some things online, because it's just not going to be worth the return on investment to fly out to the other end of the country. But I do think it's still super useful, especially in your region, to get media going to have that library or bookstore winery launch event because that allows the media to report on something interesting, and it's happening. So this goes back many years, often it was the bookstore event, it was used to get the local and regional media, it wasn't necessarily that the sales in the store was the point, it was the bigger impression that you were making in that media market. So those reasons to do events still exist. I think that I would encourage people to think about collaborating on these events, rather than being a solo author. Can you be in conversation with another author? Can there be a theme surrounding the event? So it's not just about you reading from a book, instead, you're analyzing a pertinent current events issue that your book ties into, as you mentioned earlier? That just makes the events more appealing and dynamic.

Anna David: And so in the two, would you recommend that somebody, because this is a conversation I have with people all the time, I just want to try traditional publishing first, do you think everybody who wants to be published traditionally should try first? And have NBP be a second option?

Jane Friedman: Yeah, if that's what you want, I would suggest trying it like the only thing you have to lose is your time and maybe a bit of your ego. Right? So you can set up a submissions process that you kind of knock out I would say in three months, I wouldn't like to wait forever and ever to get responses. I'd like to test the waters, see what responses you can get and give yourself a deadline to finish that process and then move on. I think it's really important not to get caught up in like this hamster wheel of submission where you kind of stopped for a while because you're feeling dejected. You think well, maybe I'd get this edited or there's a lot of hemming and hawing and doubt, which is totally normal. But I would say do not linger in that process, move through it, and then move on.

Anna David: So that's three months for an agent, and then maybe another three months, like if you don't get an agent in three months, move on and then give your agent three months to try to sell the book. If you get an agent? 

Jane Friedman: The agent will offer realistic expectations there. So what I'm hearing right now is that it's taking editors longer to look at manuscripts and read them. So it could be that it takes longer than three months. It might be six months, but I would say you know, take your agents' guidance on that one, but if they can't sell it in a year, that's definitely what I would cut loose and consider another avenue.

Anna David: What do you see as today the advantages of having a traditional publisher?

Jane Friedman: Oh, boy, it depends so much on the publisher we're talking about. So for instance, Amazon publishing, which many people confuse with self publishing, it's not their traditional publishing operation that does 1000 titles a year, they're enormous, they have about two dozen imprints covering every category and genre. If you get a deal with Amazon publishing, you're probably going to have a small advance relative to like a big New York house, but you're gonna get the power of Amazon, putting your book in front of the people, it's pretty sure it's going people that they think are going to buy the book. They're probably going to put it in Amazon Prime, or it's going to be in Kindle Unlimited, and you're going to get huge exposure, that it would be very hard for like a big five publisher to get you. But you're in the Amazon ecosystem, you know, you're not in the bookstore ecosystem.

Now, if you're the sort of author who feels like Oh, my God, this is the independent bookstore book, I think it's going to the bookstore, people are going to love this thing. And you can sometimes see exactly what titles are like that, because they're actually about bookstores. And those are just you can tell these are dead ringers for bookstore promotion. Anyway, if that's what you want, you kind of need a big five to help you do that, or at least a really strong, independent house like Grove Atlantic. So it really goes back to what you're looking for. Not that you have the choice of publisher there. But publishers are great at getting your book stocked and bricks and mortar. They can be really powerful at online marketing and promotion, if they have that direct to consumer list, which some do. So  if they have an active publishing program in your genre, or category, you then also have the benefit of the relationships, I hope, of other authors in that imprint. And it helps build your network as well. 

Anna David: Yeah, that's a very rosy look at it.  I have a much easier time getting my books I published myself in bookstores than the traditionally published ones, because if you are publishing independently, you can make your book returnable, and my publisher didn't. So they don't want to or, anyway. Oh, Jane, you don't want to hear me? Just trust me. Oh, so what I was going to ask you is for somebody who doesn't have a book publisher behind them, how would you recommend making yourself attractive to a bookstore or a winery or wherever? Is it saying, you know, I loved your idea about making it a themed event? Is there anything else like that? Or how would you recommend people go around trying to secure those? 

Jane Friedman: Well, it's gonna depend a little bit on the venue. So like bookstores, if they're going to order the book, for the event, it needs to, it needs to be available on certain terms from certain places. So like, we're not going to order your book from Amazon, if you've self published it strictly on Amazon. You have to have it available through Ingram and you need to choose the appropriate discount, which is 55%. So there are those like little technical logistical pieces, if you're dealing with book oriented venues that have certain expectations, aside from that, any venue is going to be looking at your ability to get turnout. And so you need to look for evidence that you can generate an audience for this venue, unless they're charging you and that's how they make their money. Right. So you have to show that oh, well, you know, at my last event, it's such a venue, we had so many people turnout, and we sold so many books. And so if you're totally new, though, and don't have that track record, then you could mention maybe that you have an email list of a certain size, or you're active on social media, or you're partnering with this person who does have a presence and is going to be marketing and promoting it. So essentially, what I'm saying is you have to give them an idea of how you're going to market and promote the event and show that you're not relying on the venue itself to gin up interest.

Anna David: And I didn't actually know that there were bookstores that you could possibly pay to have an event. That's a great idea. If you're brand new.

Jane Friedman: Yeah, there are some venues where you can just pay them outright. All right. 

Anna David: Well, this has been fantastic. Is there any final piece of advice you have for somebody who is sort of I know I want to write a book, but I'm not sure what to do. What final advice would you have for them?

Jane Friedman: Have patience with yourself in the process. I find that a lot of people are either if they're not paralyzed by self doubt, they're rushing or they expect things to happen more quickly than they actually do, especially in the publishing industry, which is notoriously slow, but writing itself is a slow process. So just give it the respect and attention it deserves and take some joy, I hope and the act of writing and revising because that's what it all boils down to is taking joy in the work. 

Anna David: Okay, great. So Jane, if people want to find you what's the best way?

Jane Friedman: My website is Janefriedman.com. That points to everything that I do, whether it's the paid newsletter or the classes and events. 

Anna David: Fantastic. Thank you so much, Jane. And thank you guys for listening

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