Anna David's Blog, page 7

How to Get on Podcasts to Promote Your Book with John Corcoran

 

John Corcoran may be my new favorite human. A former White House speechwriter and attorney who worked in Hollywood, he now runs Rise25, which helps businesses get more clients, referral partners and strategic partners through their done-for-you podcast service.

In the brief time we've known each other, he's introduced me to countless people, advised me on my business and given me ideas that have sent my head spinning, in all the right ways. This man is a fount of wisdom!

And Corcoran isn't just an expert in podcasts—he's an expert in getting podcasts to further your career.

He's been in the podcasting game over a decade and his show, Smart Business Revolution, is a must for anyone building a business (and if you're an author, I do hope you're building a business that your book can support).

In this episode, he explains how you can promote your book on podcasts, when you should be reaching out and why having your own podcast is the best promotional tool of all.

HERE'S HOW I CAN HELP YOU WHEN YOU'RE READY:

→ You can sign up to hear my secrets every week at www.AuthoritySecrets.Club

→ You can watch my free masterclass on building a business from your book

You can grab my Book Launch Blueprint for $20 (it gives you over 29 PDFs that we use for the launches of clients who pay tens of thousands of dollars) 

→ You can apply for a call to work with Legacy Launch Pad (we have packages that range from $3k-150k)

RELATED EPISODES & LINKS

The Debut of Launch Pad with Dave Chesson

Affiliate link to Dave Chesson's AMAZING Publisher Rocket software

CLICK ON ANY OF THE LINKS BELOW TO HEAR THIS EPISODE OR CLICK HERE TO GET THE POD ON ANY PLATFORM~

How to Get an Influencer to Promote You with Jess Lahey

 

Jess Lahey can talk about so many things so brilliantly that interviewing her felt a bit like walking through an outlet mall: so many choices and they all look so good!

But really, here's what you need to know: She's a former New York Times columnist and current Atlantic contributor, podcaster and New York Times bestselling author of The Gift of Failure whose new book, The Addiction Inoculation, is the one that the world has been clamoring for. It addresses the question on pretty much every parent's mind at one time or another: how do I prevent my kid from becoming an addict?

Lahey addresses this issue from her own perspective (as a sober woman from an alcoholic family who's taught high schoolers in recovery) but with a reporter's brilliance (coupled with scientific and medical knowledge, with some help, she acknowledges, from her in-house researcher, her husband Dr. Tim Lahey). In short, she's the perfect person to have penned this book and she couldn't have penned it at a more perfect time.

She's also, it turns out, the perfect person to talk to about building a business from a book—particularly if that business includes speaking, podcasting and newsletter writing. She's got tips aplenty for how to get speaking gigs, be booked on huge podcasts and have celebrities endorse your work. But—trigger warning—you'll never again think, "Oh, look how lucky that writer got, I bet it was easy for her." In other words, a sh*tload of work goes into these "lucky breaks," and Jess breaks down every single one. 

HERE'S HOW I CAN HELP YOU WHEN YOU'RE READY:

→ You can sign up to hear my secrets every week at www.AuthoritySecrets.Club

→ You can watch my free masterclass on building a business from your book

You can grab my Book Launch Blueprint for $20 (it gives you over 29 PDFs that we use for the launches of clients who pay tens of thousands of dollars) 

→ You can apply for a call to work with Legacy Launch Pad (we have packages that range from $3k-150k)

CLICK ON ANY OF THE LINKS BELOW TO HEAR THIS EPISODE!

 

Why Authors Need to be on Social Media with Jane Friedman

 

Jane Friedman is an icon in the publishing space. With over two decades of experience in the business, she is truly considered the world's leading expert on traditional publishing, self publishing and where the twain shall meet. She's the curator of The Hot Sheet, a biweekly paid newsletter, oversees a wildly popular blog and is also the author of The Business of Being a Writer.

In this episode, we discussed how important it is to know what you want your book to do for you, how to get bookstores interested in hosting you, the biggest changes in the publishing industry over the past year and so much more. 

RELEVANT LINKS:

Jane's blog

The Hot Sheet

The Business of Being a Writer site

HERE'S HOW I CAN HELP YOU WHEN YOU'RE READY:

→ You can sign up to hear my secrets every week at www.AuthoritySecrets.Club

→ You can grab my Book Launch Blueprint for $20 (it gives you over 29 PDFs that we use for the launches of clients who pay tens of thousands of dollars) 

→ You can apply for a call to work with Legacy Launch Pad (we have packages that range from $3k-150k)

RELATED EPISODES:  

What Your Non-Fiction Book Needs with Elizabeth Lyons

How Do I Arrange Readings for my Book?

Talking About Your Book on TV and Podcasts with Media Coach Susan Harrow 

TRANSCRIPT:

Anna David: Well, thank you so much for being here, Jane, I really appreciate it.

Jane Friedman: My pleasure.

Anna David: One thing, I have actually spoken about you on this show before and one of the conversations I recently had about you was with Elizabeth Lyons, and we were talking about how much we both love that  you don't pick a side. You are really right there, you can't go well, Jane is very true. She's all for tradition but no, no, no, she's all for self publishing. So would you say that's accurate that you haven't picked aside?

Jane Friedman: Absolutely. And I am glad you have noticed that. I hope everybody notices that I like the 360 degree view. And I've experienced enough stories or met with enough authors that I know that there isn't like a right side to publishing paths. Everyone's position and needs are unique. 

Anna David: Yeah, I love it. This is the quote from your said, I love it. “I've been working in book publishing since the 1990s, but my views are not from the 1990s.” So what would you say because it's changing so quickly, how would you say traditional publishing has changed the most in the past year? So right now we're recording this in June of 2022. What would you say is the most significant change in the past year?

Jane Friedman: The supply chain issues have gotten worse. I mean, they were bad a year ago. But I know it seems insane. But it's getting worse. And I think that a lot of publishers are struggling to get their printing time to get their paper and to do the things to have a normal publishing schedule. And I think it's just creating a lot of stress. So that's one piece. Another piece is labor issues. So there are a lot of people as we're coming out of the pandemic, knock on wood, that are reevaluating their priorities. And the pandemic has resulted in a wake up call for a lot of people about work life balance. And so we're seeing a lot of discussion about how to treat publishings workers. I have no idea where that's going to fall out. But we'll see what happens.

Anna David: And in terms of the supply chain issues, it almost feels like being in traditional publishing, it's more of a concern, because, you know, Amazon and print on demand those that, you know, they are just printing every night, right? 

Jane Friedman: Right. So print on demand is a bit of a different animal, traditional publishers are using print on demand to fill in the gaps. But because of all of these supply chain crunches, prices are going up, it's probably going to result in higher book prices for everybody. Some people listening may have already noticed higher prices on books, and POD prices are going up too. So even self publishing authors are affected by this.

Anna David: But it's not really affecting the speed a little bit. I am noticing right now that Amazon KDP has had just kind of exquisite customer support for years. And now it's like sorry, there's a delay in there. There are no explanations. There's just excuses, which is unusual for such amazing tech support.

Jane Friedman: Yes, I see and hear a lot of varied experiences with Amazon, it's really hard to understand what's going on behind the scenes because one person will have a smooth problem-free experience and others are just banging their head against the wall. So yeah, it's hard to comment on Amazon's customer service given the variety of diversity of the experience.

Anna David: So one of the things that I have always felt very aligned with you on is this idea about writers and making a living there are these ideas like oh, I just, you know, we all think it's gonna be different for us. We all think it Yeah, yeah, no one can make a living, whatever, it's gonna be different for me. What do you think is the best way for a writer to make a living? 

Jane Friedman: If it's your first book, the Living isn't likely to come from book sales alone. Now, you may have received a really ginormous advance, which might keep you afloat for a while. But I would say that most authors if they're making a living, it's through ancillary activities related to that book. So for nonfiction authors that could be speaking and consulting. Things that grow their business footprint. If it's fiction, it gets a little bit tougher. So usually, then you're getting into services where you're helping people with less experience. Come up the ladder, so you're providing editing services or marketing services, things that maybe you've become an expert for children's authors, classroom visits and speaking engagements can be very important and provide additional revenue. Some writers are great freelance writers, although some of those opportunities have been drying up just because of the state of the media and magazine industry.

Anna David: I'm interested in, so you really would say your main business is The Hot Sheet? And if so when did it become clear, this is my main business, everything else is adjunct?

Jane Friedman: It's probably about a third of my business. The bulk of my business is online education. So running one time webinars is where I earn most of my income. And then book sales would probably be less than 5%. At this point. Yeah. As far as where I recognized The Hot Sheet would become the size it is today. I mean, I think I knew all along, just because of my experience in the industry, that it could be basically the entirety of my business if I chose to focus on it to the exclusion of all else, but I like variety. I don't want to do just one thing. Yeah.

Anna David: Yeah. It's interesting, because it was my first introduction, it was, you know, before Substack existed, I was like, wait, you charge for a newsletter. And now it's become so commonplace. But I'm very intrigued by it. So it's, you know, anybody? Because it is everyone I know who reads it, it's if you open it right away, it's all these? How do you do it? How is it you and your husband work on it, you have a team that works on it, I know you have original reporting in it. So you have freelancers and all of that?

Jane Friedman: Most of the writing gets done by myself. So it's my writing, reporting and research, then I have a freelance copy editor who goes through all of the content, does the fact checking and style and you know, fixing grammatical errors. And then my husband who does work for me in the business, he does what I consider the production, which is you know, loading it all into the MailChimp system and then doing customer service. So you know, when people have deliverability issues, or we need to invoice someone, or people aren't, you know, whatever the issue is, for the reader, he's there to take care of it.

Anna David: And how are you finding all of those stories? Is it just your voraciousness in terms of researching them? You have Google Alerts, you're going to events? How are you doing it?

Jane Friedman: Well, it's somewhat incestuous, because I read a ton of newsletters to make my own newsletter, right? And, but, you know, I've been studying industry publications, you know, since the early 2000s. So I obviously subscribed to all of the main industry outlets like Publishers Weekly, the Bookseller's Shelf Awareness, Publishers Lunch, I could go on. But there are lots of others like publishing adjacent newsletters that are super helpful, and that I'm always scanning for bigger picture trends, like related to Substack, or to advertising, or serial reading and writing apps. So the publishing world is very multifaceted. Some people call it, you know, two dozen industries and one and so that always gives me a lot of fuel for the fire.

Anna David: So I'm curious, what would you call it? How would you define success for a book? I know it depends on the author, but what would you consider a, quote, successful book?

Jane Friedman: If it's my personal definition, what would success mean, for me publishing a book, it's going to raise my profile and more strongly identify me with a specific message or a specific audience that I want to be known by. So in my last book, The Business of Being a Writer,  my goal was to strongly associate myself with writers interested in the business. And I would say by that measure, it's been a success. It's also been for the publisher of financial success. So there will be a second edition, which I happen to be working on now. Another one of my goals was to get to writers early in their journey. So I really wanted to see the book adopted by professors in MFA programs or undergraduate writing programs. And that's one of the reasons that I worked with the University of Chicago Press on that book, because they have the clout and the ability to get books into classrooms. So again, I would say check mark on that, because it is being used by those programs. 

Anna David: Do you think a writer should go into a book knowing this is what success would look like for me?

Jane Friedman: Oh, yes. It just affects the writing and the development of the book to know why are you spending time doing this thing that is basically going to pay you pennies on the hour? Or maybe even like a percentage of a penny on the hour. So you have to really be clear and honest with yourself about what you would like to see happen. That's hopefully not related to sales, which you have no control over.  To some extent, you have no control over it.

Anna David: And how could someone know if their idea is good or not?

Jane Friedman: I think it really goes back to your understanding of who you're writing for a lot of people are writing, not in a bad way for themselves, and they haven't really thought about, okay, who is the ideal reader for this? Whose life am I trying to change? Who am I speaking to, that really needs to hear this message or story or benefit from this information? And by either planning the book or writing the book with that person in mind, it helps avoid going too broad trying to include everyone or serve all audiences, which is a classic mistake. And just dig into the people that you think will be most likely to read it and the easiest for you to reach. 

Anna David: It's so interesting, because I come from traditional publishing. Why did they ever say that? Why did that never come up in all those meanings? No one ever said that, six books. Do you know what I mean?

Jane Friedman: I do know what you mean. I mean, I think this is a problem primarily with the more literary and publishing or, especially in New York publishing, where there's a lot of respect for personalities and people's gut instinct. And there's this overriding myth, neither good nor bad, that no one knows what books are gonna sell. And they were just going to throw it all at the wall and see what sticks. And if you are making decisions by gut instinct, then yeah, that sort of thinking makes sense. But I actually started working at a publishing company that did market research. And it was my first responsibility, in my first year on the job to do that market research into certain segments. And we had book clubs where we could survey our members and say, which of these books do you want to buy next? And so that really disciplined me early that you can find out the answers to what people want, and you can develop books that have a waiting audience, but that is not normal for most of big publishing. 

Anna David: Why do you think that they are so anti research? 

Jane Friedman: I don't think typically, there haven't been departments devoted to it, you would have to actually hire and market research people. And again, there's this art commerce tension, you know, although I think that's changed a lot more in the last 10 to 20 years, especially with the advent of Amazon, which showed, oh, look, if you pay attention to some data and analytics, and you measure the audience, it has results. So I do think there are more people in marketing departments at big publishers today that are involved in marketing analytics, but still, that it's hard to change that culture.

Anna David: Yeah, I mean, and I think it's sort of like will they know those big hits, they're going to hit so big, if it's a JK Rowling or Brene Brown, or whatever it is, that they don't need to bother, because we're gonna, you know what I mean, we're going to be okay, in the end, like, even though we're going to lose money on on 99% of these. I mean, that's how it feels to me. 

Jane Friedman: It can feel that way. And, it's really sad for the authors, you know, of those books, who aren't, you know, inevitably they're disappointed by performance. And they think their publisher could have done more, and maybe the publisher could have.

Anna David: Yeah, it's interesting now that I'm on this side of it. And I remember speaking to a publicist, and she told me what I always suspected, she had been an in-house published publicist at a big five publishing company. And she's like, you just kind of had to avoid those authors that you weren't doing anything for. Because what are you going to tell them? Like, you don't matter? But the author feels it. It's almost I don't know, I guess it's good. If someone had sent that to me, I would have been really upset. But since it really is, you know, each author is really in it for his or herself. What do you think? What do you think is the most crucial thing to do all authors need to have? Newsletter lists? 

Jane Friedman: Well, it is like the number one most powerful sales and marketing tool hands down. There is nothing in my mind. That's a better asset to have that protects you from the changes happening. If your publisher drops you if your agent dies, if you know, whatever happens, you've still got that direct connection to your readers. I always hesitate to say, you know, you must and there is no other way, but it is one of the best insurance policies against change in the industry. And certainly we're seeing now with the growing privacy protections through social media or Apple. They're coming on Google too, that It makes those channels less effective, it makes the advertising less effective. And if you hear people inside publishing talking today, even at traditional publishers, they're trying to beef up what they call their first party data, which is their direct experience of selling to readers and that often through email, and not through their own website. And of course, Amazon's not sharing any data. So that's really incumbent on whether it's the author or publisher to figure out who those readers are, and reach them without depending on a third party. 

Anna David: Even when people go, Well, emails dead, who opens email anymore? It's just simply not true?

Jane Friedman: It's not true.

Anna David: In terms of social media, you know, one of the most fascinating things and I know you definitely covered it, but was that New York Times story about a year ago that said, like, “Okay, here we go, if publishers had been, you know, really prioritizing social media, but Billie Eilish has millions of subscribers.” And she sold, I think it was under 60,000 copies, and Justin Timberlake, you know, over five years under 100,000 copies. So what is it with social media? Will you explain how it matters and how it doesn't matter? 

Jane Friedman: Well, it is really like, big stories that you see in the New York Times that look at this issue, the one that you mentioned, is a particularly fascinating one, because I don't see any evidence that the publishers were actively collaborating with those celebrity authors to use their social media platform to help sell books. So if the author themselves haven't kind of brought people in, and you know, taking them along on the journey, and themselves being excited about the book and talking about it, of course, there's not going to be any sales of it. So the publisher just can't sit back and wait for the social media numbers to do their job. There has to be an actual engagement, surprise. The other thing that I think people miss about this distinction is that, for example, on TikTok, we have the book talk phenomenon, which is indeed selling tons of books. It's responsible for the bulk of fiction sales growth this year, and last year. But is it the author's themselves doing that? Not really, it's the influencers and other people who are just excited to talk about and recommend books. So social media, in that instance, does sell books, but it's because of community engagement and enthusiasm. It's not because the author amassed some enormous TikTok following, although I will say, there are some authors like Colleen Hoover, who are wonderful at using TikTok. And, you know, using it for engagement in order to boost visibility and boost sales, but you can't tell someone who's a debut author? Yeah, go get on TikTok. And that will ensure sales? It does not.

Anna David: I mean, that's the thing. I'll talk to people and they go, Well, I really need to focus on that. And it's true, but oh my God, it’s a day in day out slog, I do think it works. I think anyone who's listening, you know, you don't have to go like I had Tik ok up. Find your path, find your thing. Try to make it fun. That thing that makes you creative. When everything in you says this is sick, this is social media? Well, you're a creative find a way to make it fun is  sort of where I stand with that. But you don't think writers have to be on social media?

Jane Friedman: I think you make your life increasingly difficult as an author if you don't use anything whatsoever. It's possible. I've seen authors do it. Yeah. But you're, I think you're making your life harder. And so it's not a path I recommend, unless you just feel like for whatever reason that it's just going to drain you and take away and the negatives are going to really outweigh the positives.

Anna David: How important do you think media attention is for an author?

Jane Friedman: It's increasingly hard to get because the number of media outlets covering books has diminished over time. And it's one of the number one things you're going to hear a publishing industry say is that media outlets don't cover books like they used to. Part of this has to do with the socio-political environment. Certain presidents who have been in office, climate change, gun violence, like there are a lot of things competing for people's attention, particularly right now when we feel like the world is on fire. And it also raises questions for writers themselves about why am I producing art or talking about my book, when there are these apparently very serious issues in the world today. But that doesn't directly answer your question. I'm just talking about how hard it is. But I think any marketer or publicist would tell you that right now, part of the game is just keeping visibility consistent over a long period of time. So to the extent that you can get some media hits, even if there's from a smaller outlet. That's to keep the ball rolling. The larger the number of impressions, the more likely you're going to get sales over time. It usually doesn't happen with the first impression unless we're talking about someone who already knows you. And has been waiting for your book to come out.

Anna David: But also seeing how your book relates to the news. And obviously, that's not always the case with fiction. It's not easy. But but with nonfiction, you know, there again, it's using your creativity to find a way like, well, how does the business of being a writer fit into what's what? That's what we figure out, we’re creative people?

Jane Friedman: Yes, you have to find those links between what people are talking about, what's in the Zeitgeist, and what's in your book.

Anna David: Do you think there's particular media hits that really moved the needle? Obviously, Terry Gross. But are there others? I mean, I know from personal experience, like being on Good Morning America, Today show that doesn't necessarily result in book sales.

Jane Friedman: That's correct. The big favorite right now is CBS Sunday Morning, because they actually give the author a good seven or 10 minutes to talk about the book. And so people like to have an opportunity to really kind of sink into who this author is and what they're concerned about. Whereas the other morning shows, I don't know how long those segments are, but they're really short. Other things, any sort of celebrity book club or influencer book club. So this includes Reese Witherspoon, Jenna Bush, retailer book clubs, the Barnes and Noble, they all have these pics, and those are all super helpful.

Anna David: Do you have any tips for getting attention from those celebrity book clubs?

Jane Friedman: I mean, unless you already have an existing connection, I don't know that I would recommend trying to knock on those doors. It's really something that's facilitated through your publisher.

Anna David: Yeah, yeah. Do you recommend book tours?

Jane Friedman: I think they can still be super useful, but you have to be strategic about it. And there's probably going to be some sort of hybrid tour from now on out. So you'll do some things online, because it's just not going to be worth the return on investment to fly out to the other end of the country. But I do think it's still super useful, especially in your region, to get media going to have that library or bookstore winery launch event because that allows the media to report on something interesting, and it's happening. So this goes back many years, often it was the bookstore event, it was used to get the local and regional media, it wasn't necessarily that the sales in the store was the point, it was the bigger impression that you were making in that media market. So those reasons to do events still exist. I think that I would encourage people to think about collaborating on these events, rather than being a solo author. Can you be in conversation with another author? Can there be a theme surrounding the event? So it's not just about you reading from a book, instead, you're analyzing a pertinent current events issue that your book ties into, as you mentioned earlier? That just makes the events more appealing and dynamic.

Anna David: And so in the two, would you recommend that somebody, because this is a conversation I have with people all the time, I just want to try traditional publishing first, do you think everybody who wants to be published traditionally should try first? And have NBP be a second option?

Jane Friedman: Yeah, if that's what you want, I would suggest trying it like the only thing you have to lose is your time and maybe a bit of your ego. Right? So you can set up a submissions process that you kind of knock out I would say in three months, I wouldn't like to wait forever and ever to get responses. I'd like to test the waters, see what responses you can get and give yourself a deadline to finish that process and then move on. I think it's really important not to get caught up in like this hamster wheel of submission where you kind of stopped for a while because you're feeling dejected. You think well, maybe I'd get this edited or there's a lot of hemming and hawing and doubt, which is totally normal. But I would say do not linger in that process, move through it, and then move on.

Anna David: So that's three months for an agent, and then maybe another three months, like if you don't get an agent in three months, move on and then give your agent three months to try to sell the book. If you get an agent? 

Jane Friedman: The agent will offer realistic expectations there. So what I'm hearing right now is that it's taking editors longer to look at manuscripts and read them. So it could be that it takes longer than three months. It might be six months, but I would say you know, take your agent's guidance on that one, but if they can't sell it in a year, that's definitely what I would cut loose and consider another avenue.

Anna David: What do you see as today the advantages of having a traditional publisher?

Jane Friedman: Oh, boy, it depends so much on the publisher we're talking about. So for instance, Amazon publishing, which many people confuse with self publishing, it's not their traditional publishing operation that does 1000 titles a year, they're enormous, they have about two dozen imprints covering every category and genre. If you get a deal with Amazon publishing, you're probably going to have a small advance relative to like a big New York house, but you're gonna get the power of Amazon, putting your book in front of the people, it's pretty sure it's going people that they think are going to buy the book. They're probably going to put it in Amazon Prime, or it's going to be in Kindle Unlimited, and you're going to get huge exposure, that it would be very hard for like a big five publisher to get you. But you're in the Amazon ecosystem, you know, you're not in the bookstore ecosystem.

Now, if you're the sort of author who feels like oh, my God, this is the independent bookstore book, I think it's going to the bookstore, people are going to love this thing. And you can sometimes see exactly what titles are like that, because they're actually about bookstores. And those are just you can tell these are dead ringers for bookstore promotion. Anyway, if that's what you want, you kind of need a big five to help you do that, or at least a really strong, independent house like Grove Atlantic. So it really goes back to what you're looking for. Not that you have the choice of publisher there. But publishers are great at getting your book stocked and bricks and mortar. They can be really powerful at online marketing and promotion, if they have that direct to consumer list, which some do. So  if they have an active publishing program in your genre, or category, you then also have the benefit of the relationships, I hope, of other authors in that imprint. And it helps build your network as well. 

Anna David: Yeah, that's a very rosy look at it.  I have a much easier time getting my books I published myself in bookstores than the traditionally published ones, because if you are publishing independently, you can make your book returnable, and my publisher didn't. So they don't want to or, anyway. Oh, Jane, you don't want to hear me? Just trust me. Oh, so what I was going to ask you is for somebody who doesn't have a book publisher behind them, how would you recommend making yourself attractive to a bookstore or a winery or wherever? Is it saying, you know, I loved your idea about making it a themed event? Is there anything else like that? Or how would you recommend people go around trying to secure those? 

Jane Friedman: Well, it's gonna depend a little bit on the venue. So like bookstores, if they're going to order the book, for the event, it needs to, it needs to be available on certain terms from certain places. So like, we're not going to order your book from Amazon, if you've self published it strictly on Amazon. You have to have it available through Ingram and you need to choose the appropriate discount, which is 55%. So there are those like little technical logistical pieces, if you're dealing with book oriented venues that have certain expectations, aside from that, any venue is going to be looking at your ability to get turnout. And so you need to look for evidence that you can generate an audience for this venue, unless they're charging you and that's how they make their money. Right. So you have to show that oh, well, you know, at my last event, it's such a venue, we had so many people turnout, and we sold so many books. And so if you're totally new, though, and don't have that track record, then you could mention maybe that you have an email list of a certain size, or you're active on social media, or you're partnering with this person who does have a presence and is going to be marketing and promoting it. So essentially, what I'm saying is you have to give them an idea of how you're going to market and promote the event and show that you're not relying on the venue itself to gin up interest.

Anna David: And I didn't actually know that there were bookstores that you could possibly pay to have an event. That's a great idea if you're brand new.

Jane Friedman: Yeah, there are some venues where you can just pay them outright. All right. 

Anna David: Well, this has been fantastic. Is there any final piece of advice you have for somebody who is sort of I know I want to write a book, but I'm not sure what to do. What final advice would you have for them?

Jane Friedman: Have patience with yourself in the process. I find that a lot of people are either if they're not paralyzed by self doubt, they're rushing or they expect things to happen more quickly than they actually do, especially in the publishing industry, which is notoriously slow, but writing itself is a slow process. So just give it the respect and attention it deserves and take some joy, I hope and the act of writing and revising because that's what it all boils down to is taking joy in the work. 

Anna David: Okay, great. So Jane, if people want to find you what's the best way?

Jane Friedman: My website is Janefriedman.com. That points to everything that I do, whether it's the paid newsletter or the classes and events. 

Anna David: Fantastic. Thank you so much, Jane. And thank you guys for listening

CLICK ON ANY OF THE LINKS BELOW TO HEAR THIS EPISODE OR CLICK HERE TO GET THE POD ON ANY PLATFORM   

How to Get a Big Name to Blurb Your Book with Ed Kressy

 

Ed Kressy is not your average human.

He's much sweeter than your average human and his sweetness emanates from him.

He also has a much crazier story than your average addict with a crazy story...and this is coming from someone who's heard every crazy addiction story over the past two decades.

The short version: he went into a meth-induced psychosis for 14 years that left him convinced he was involved in 9/11. The longer version is in his memoir, My Addiction & Recovery: Just Because You're Done With Drugs Doesn't Mean Drugs Are Done With You, which you can get here.

He is one of the most exquisitely talented writers I've come across in a long time—something I found, and tell him in this episode, surprising. I've read almost every book out there about addiction and recovery and few are as brilliantly crafted as this. Please get this book. Not only will you be exposed to some of the best writing around but all proceeds are being donated to prisons.

And that relationship with prisons, for those here for the marketing tidbits, is how Ed was able to get the great Seth Godin to blurb his book. 

In this episode, we get into Ed's crazy story, how many drafts he wrote of this book (you don't want to know) and his mission to get the book into every prison he can (so far, it has been accepted by 108 facilities in nine states, serving an estimated 132,000 incarcerated people). Listen in to find out more about the guy whose recovery-related work has appeared in the Washington Post and who's delivered criminal justice-themed talks for groups at Amazon, Cisco, Google, LinkedIn and MIT.  

HERE'S HOW I CAN HELP YOU WHEN YOU'RE READY:

→ You can sign up to hear my secrets every week at www.AuthoritySecrets.Club

→ You can grab my Book Launch Blueprint for $20 (it gives you over 29 PDFs that we use for the launches of clients who pay tens of thousands of dollars) 

→ You can apply for a call to work with Legacy Launch Pad (we have packages that range from $3k-150k)

RELATED EPISODES 

Jessie Krieger on Crowd-Funding Your Book Launch

How Do I Get Blurbs For My Book?

CLICK ON ANY OF THE LINKS BELOW TO HEAR THIS EPISODE OR CLICK HERE TO GET THE POD ON ANY PLATFORM

QUOTE OF THE EPISODE:
"Ed Kressy has a much crazier story than your average addict with a crazy story...and this is coming from someone who's heard every crazy addiction story over the past two decades."

Getting Articles Published & Landing an Agent with Estelle Erasmus

Estelle Erasmus is an award-winning journalist, writing coach, teacher for Writer's Digest and adjunct instructor at New York University. The former editor-in-chief of five national consumer women's magazines, her work has appeared in dozens of media outlets, including The New York Times, The Washington Post, WIRED, Huffington Post Personal, Marie Claire and more.

Now she's written a book that can show you how to do the same! Writing That Gets Noticed: How to Find Your Voice, Become a Better Storyteller, and Get Published will show you all the techniques for getting editors to pay attention to you so that you can spread your writing beyond your book.

In this episode, we dove into some of those techniques (including using your potential article name as the subject line of your pitch email and including your first paragraph of the article in your pitch) and also how to get an agent if you want to pursue the traditional publishing path.

HERE'S HOW I CAN HELP YOU WHEN YOU'RE READY:

→ You can sign up to hear my secrets every week at www.AuthoritySecrets.Club

→ You can grab my Book Launch Blueprint for $20 (it gives you over 29 PDFs that we use for the launches of clients who pay tens of thousands of dollars) 

→ You can apply for a call to work with Legacy Launch Pad (we have packages that range from $3k-150k)

CLICK ON ANY OF THE LINKS BELOW TO HEAR THIS EPISODE OR CLICK HERE TO GET THE POD ON ANY PLATFORM

Make Sure You Write the Right Book with Dave Chesson

 

Dave Chesson is the creator of Kindlepreneur.com, a website devoted to teaching advanced book marketing which even Amazon KDP acknowledges as one of the best by telling users to “Gain insight from Kindlepreneur on how you can optimize marketing for your books.” Having worked with such authors as Orson Scott Card, Ted Dekker and more, his tactics help both fiction and nonfiction authors of all levels get their books discovered by the right readers. 

But that's the official bio stuff. The stuff that really matters, at least to me, is that he is the wisest person out there today when it comes to successful indie publishing. Basically, he does the work so that the rest of us can utilize his techniques and systems.

You can read the full transcript of our conversation below but the main takeaways are this: if you want to successfully launch a book, start your launch work the day you start writing; to cut down on haters, show readers you're human; and the right keywords and categories on Amazon can make the difference between bestsellerdom and obscurity.

Enjoy this episode and by all means, employ the techniques! 

HERE'S HOW I CAN HELP YOU WHEN YOU'RE READY:

→ You can sign up to hear my secrets every week at www.AuthoritySecrets.Club

→ You can grab my Book Launch Blueprint for $20 (it gives you over 29 PDFs that we use for the launches of clients who pay tens of thousands of dollars) 

→ You can apply for a call to work with Legacy Launch Pad (we have packages that range from $3k-150k)

CLICK ON ANY OF THE LINKS BELOW TO HEAR IT!!

DAVE'S TOP 3 TIPS

[TAKEAWAYS FOR A SUCCESSFUL LAUNCH]:

When you go to start writing your book, start building relationships with people who can ultimately support you and your book—influencers, authors and the like. Try to help them out or allow them to get to know you because you've supported them through comments and responding to their posts so that they know who you are by the time you ask for their help.

List the book in 10 categories instead of 2 (refer to Dave's blog post for help on how to do this and using his software, Publisher Rocket, is invaluable here)

because you have one strategy that's in effect for the first couple of days. Like almost like kind of like project management where you've got a schedule. And you're trying to, instead of doing everything on day one, spread it out so that your book continues to have constant sales and not just one giant spike.

INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT:

Anna: Dave Chesson is the founder of Kindlepreneur, the host of the Book Marketing Show podcast and knows more about launching books than anyone I've ever come across. So thank you, thank you.

Dave Chesson:  No problem. I'm really glad to be here.

Anna: So, let's talk about your journey here. Highly unusual journey, I would say, for a writer. You came at publishing—well, let's talk about how you started off, in the Navy, not what anybody would expect necessarily, and how you came to decide to do this and how you came to where you are now.

Dave Chesson:  Well, actually my entire life, I never really thought I would ever be a writer. It's just never been in my code or my DNA. I actually suffer from a form of dyslexia. And so I grew up as being that kid who seemed to, you know, I got A's in every other class, but when it came to English, man, it was like I would be crossing my fingers hoping for like a D+ or a C-. So, I really just thought I was never meant to write. And that kind of progressed throughout life. I mean, I'd always had a desire to write and his, as many of our listeners are probably in the same exact boat where, you know you want to write, you have this book in you. But for me, on the other hand, I just couldn't sit down and write whatever I wanted and just be, you know, loved and followed.

I would try this, I'd be like, “Oh man, here's this motivation, I'm doing this P90X thing. I'm going to write a blog about, you know, the trials and tribulations because I know I'm going to do this right. And so people could benefit from that.” And no, I think only my grandmother listened to it and that was about it. Or Reddit. And I was like, ah man, come on. So, my thing was is that I was, I was in the military and you know, throughout the years I had tried a little bit of blogging and writing and never found any traction whatsoever. But the military just sent me to Korea without my family. And so, you know, I had to go and spend two years without my wife and kids, and my wife had this really good question. She was like, “What are you doing all this for?” I was like, “A paycheck?” She's like, “No, I mean like why are we making all these sacrifices?” And I said, yeah, that's a good question. I mean, I didn't have a desire to be an Admiral in the Navy. I didn't, you know, I was just going to go through 20 years and maybe collect a retirement paycheck or something like that and then look back at it and just realize, wow, that was, you know, a lot of lost time with my kids and you know, nothing really to show for it. And that's when we started to talk about an exit strategy. You know, something that would allow me to get out of the military but not go from one nine-to-five traveling job to another nine-to-five traveling job.

And that's when I really started to discover a bit more about writing and kind of learning about, you know, the market. A great example that I tell people is say you go to this party, okay. And you know, nobody at this party it's just you, but you find out that everyone in this party really wants to know or talk about a certain TV show and you just happen to have done your research and you know all about the TV show and you can talk about it. It doesn't matter who you were, doesn't matter how great your oratory skills are. If you can converse in an intelligent manner on that TV show, everybody will want to listen to what you have to say. So when I started to apply that to my writing, this dyslexic, challenged, not so interesting person could all of a sudden be a center. And that's when my writing really started to take off.

Anna: Now you have how many books out there?

Dave Chesson: I have nine.

Anna:  And how many names do you have that your books are under?

Dave Chesson:  Nine? Yeah, it was when I first started writing, I was still in the military. I was actually doing military diplomacy and I didn't want to have to deal with the whole, you know, putting all the blurbs all over the book saying these are the opinions of Dave Chesson and do not reflect the United States Government in any way, shape or form. And to tell you the truth, especially with the positions that I ended with, it was a very good move. It would have been very problematic. And sometimes authors out there, you know, you don't want to mix your personal life with your professional life and vice versa. And sometimes you want to write about things that you don't really want, you know, being connected with. And you know, there's a whole genre out there that I'm sure all the listeners know what I'm referring to and no, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't write in that, that wasn't it.

But the thing was that there's a really good aspect for that. But when I got out of the military, I kind of kept this, I decided to keep writing under different pen names because every time I come out with a new book, I don't get to rely on the fame that I built from Kindlepreneur. Or the growing following that my other pen name got. I have to start in the trenches as a no-name author with no platform, no giant social media following, no email, nothing. I have to start from the beginning. And this has caused me to have to really hone my skills and make sure that, you know, I'm at square one like everybody else just beginning. And it forces me to also stay up to date. I can't just send out an email blast and enjoy, you know, hundreds of sales and send out another email blast and easily get 50 or 60 reviews just like that. I have to work and figure out how to do it without those things.

Anna:  See, this is so interesting to me because as somebody who devours every word you write and every podcast you release, we would all buy your books, even though they're under date, even though they're not my topic, I would do it to support you. Why would you make your life so hard?

Dave Chesson:  Because that's the thing is, is that when you look at it like a lot of other websites from, from providers, a major majority of their sales come from that following. And that is cool. And by the way, every author should work towards that. Okay? Because when you build your platform, you build your email list and that next book gets so much easier. And like you said Anna, for me, people have experienced what I've done right. And that they know that if I'm going to put something out there, it's going to be good. It's kinda like, you know, when you go to the store and you're looking at a whole row of books, right? Notice that the more famous an author is, the bigger the name gets, right? And right now, Stephen King's name is way bigger than the title of the book. I almost have to squint to figure out which book it is. I just, cause it's Stephen King, right? Well that's because when I see the word Stephen King, I automatically know it's probably a great book since he's never let me down. I know what kind of genre is, unless he's going off on his Green Mile or his Shawshank Redemption, you know, but I mean really it is what it is, right? I know what I'm going to get.

I don't really need to pay as much stock into the cover image or the title or anything like that. I just know what I'm getting. Same thing with, when you have a following, they just know what they're getting. So I would say to listeners is 100% work towards that. But for me, my biggest thing is, is that I've been working with big time publishing companies, really famous authors, and yes they have those tactics, but what's really made me unique is coming in and saying, that's cool, you guys have been doing that good, but here's a much better way of doing it in the digital age, you know, and here's something that you guys haven't even thought of. So in a way it's kinda like you know, helping me to sharpen my skills and helping me to stay on the cutting edge of what's new in Amazon. You know, immediately a new feature comes out—great. I need to figure it out because I need that.

Anna: So let's say that, I mean that is so inspiring to anyone listening cause I work with so many authors and they say, well, I don't have 10,000 Instagram followers. I don't have a list. I don't even know what you mean when you say list. So what would you say an author who doesn't have those things, how should they do a launch and how early should that work? Start before the book comes out.

Dave Chesson:  Well, the funniest, I love that last part of your question because this is usually where I start with is that when it comes to your launch, okay? When it comes to marketing in general, the day you decide to put finger to keyboard and hit that first letter is the date you need to start marketing. Okay? Marketing is not this point where it's like, I'm going to sit down and I’m going to write my book, I'm going to be in my own, you know, cave here with no understanding what's going on. I'm just going to write and then when I'm done, I'm going to go and start this marketing thing. No, that's how, that's why most launches fail. Because the author does that. Instead, what I think is this isn't about trying to sell a book that you haven't written yet. This is about understanding your market. Okay? When you start writing a book, you need to start understanding who your target market is.

And yes, I get it, maybe you are your own target market, but seriously, get into the heads of others. Understand what they're doing. Start building relationships with other people. You know, either your target market or other authors in the area. Don't just come up to them and say, the first thing you say to this person is, “Hey, you're a really great author! Hey, would you mind promoting my book?” Like, that never happens! That only happens when you have built a relationship with that person over time and continue to have given to them. Be there, give them reviews, be a positive influence, reply to their emails with just positive statements. That's how you get stuck in, in their head. And all of a sudden when the time comes and you're like, “I've learned so much from you. By the way, I just wrote my first book. Hey, by the way, finally, after all these times, I've hooked you up,” without saying that last part, but in your mind, you know, “would you do this thing?” And you know what? That person will. But that started the day you started to write your book, not the day you went to launch. So again, there are a lot of things that come in prior to the launch. And I think one thing I think would be really beneficial for this episode is looking at the things you can do before the launch. So, one thing we talked about already is: Get to know your target market. Find them. Are they on forums? Is there a special Facebook you know, a Facebook page or a Facebook group? Groups are better. Become a voice that talks not about your book, but about helping and asking questions, setting surveys, dropping funny memes, you know, that they would resonate with.

That's, again, a lot of this is non-fiction. For the fiction people, just getting inside the heads of, of, you know, the, the other authors or the crazy readers. Because let me tell you, they will tell you what things they hate to show up in a book. But the point is, is that you're already there and you're already listening and you're communicating. You're building a relationship, okay? So, find them. Next, is specifically find the other authors in your area and get to know them. The other authors, okay, they're not competitors—never make that mistake. They are not competitors. They are your friends! Because here's the thing, nobody can write a book, a brand-new book, every month. So they're always looking for things and they want to get to know the area as well. So get to know them. Some of the favorite strategies I've kind of already said. Get on their email list. Hit reply to every email they send you. Because let me tell you, when they start to see this, one person's legitimately saying, “Hey, great this, I like that, that's awesome,” et cetera, your name just sticks in their head.

Same thing with social media. Start tweeting with them. Start, you know, responding. Just engage with them so when the time comes, they know who you are without you having to introduce yourself. Another thing that you can start to do too is you can start to look, do some market research. You know, for example, you can to Amazon and start understanding what it is your target market types into Amazon when they're looking for your book. You can do this on the Amazon queue, or excuse me, the Amazon search box at the top. When you start to type something in there, Amazon tries to auto-populate it with what other people have typed. This can kind of help you to understand the words your market uses when searching for your kind of book.

A great example where this research can help you write a much better book is, I was working with an author who had a book about how to sell art. However, though, when we did that keyword research, like looking into what people typed, more people were typing in the phrase “how to sell art online” than those who were typing in “how to sell art.” And this, this gal was even covering the online component of it and she realized, “oh my gosh, the market wants to know this more than just the more broad subject!”

So she immediately added an entire half, an extra half of her book, to just the online sales component alone. Now imagine if she had just written the, the how to sell art, okay? Got it on Amazon, got it in front of all those people who really cared about art and didn't even cover the one thing. She probably would've gotten some scathing reviews because people were let down in what they were thinking. The author was in a completely different mind frame than the market. So that really helped her, and I think that saved a lot of her sales as well as her reviews.

And then finally too, you know, she also knew what really triggered her market more, so she even created an email opt-in that was specific to how to set up the best account on the three top online art sales platforms. And her email conversion was through the roof. And so, when she got into the mind, she made a better book, she was able to connect more with her market. So again, I would say that doing keyword research before you write your book and help you to understand what areas you should cover. Maybe perhaps some of the, you know, the way that you can maneuver your book to really fit an existing market—that's another way. But yeah, I think a lot of it really comes down to once you start those three things, I think you'll start to understand and see more opportunities on where you can get involved in your area. Every subject, whether you're fiction, non-fiction, or specific nonfiction, they all have different things to them. Some might be really Pinterest-heavy, some might be this, but if you start those things we just discussed, you'll start to learn even more, and you'll be able to grow out so that you'll have more of an influence upon launch.

Anna:  Oh my God, that was so good and so much to unpack that. I'm going to my brain, I'm memorizing what I have to ask you and I'm going to work backwards. Now, about the, the lead magnet that she created. How many CTAs would you recommend putting in a book? And what I mean by that, for anyone who has no idea what I'm talking about, is it sounds like this woman created something she knew the audience of this book would like, and she wanted to get them on her list, so she put opportunities within the book to do that. And anyone who doesn't know, this is such an advantage of publishing yourself, because traditional publishing will not allow you to do that. So, how many times would you recommend?

Dave Chesson:  Yeah, that's a really good question. In non-fiction, honestly, the best types are the ones that are in inner dispersed throughout the book. You know, for example, a lot of people when they do non-fiction, they might put at the end of the book and I'm like, well, congratulations, you're only reaching the small percentage that actually made it to the end of your book. The next step up is that you not only put it in the end of your book, but you also put it at the beginning of your book. And because that way people see it immediately. They know that there's other stuff that they can get with the book. The best sales tactic is to say that, you know, free upgrade, you know? Or make it feel like you're not only just getting this book, you're getting these other things with the book that are like either training material or aids, study aids, and stuff like that.

And then you're adding value to their life, which whether or not they actually sign up for it, at least you're planting the little seed in their mind that this book is more valuable than the others that don't. But another thing where I see people really do this well is where they have basically a giant collection of things that you can get with the book. And so for example, they may get inside a chapter and they're talking about this case study and they may have a call to action that says, “Would you like another case study on the subject matter? Sign up here to get it.” You know, if they're talking about some kind of a video, you know, “Be sure to sign up here to watch that video.” So they just kinda inter-disperse them.

Now, I would say that as a non-fiction author, you should only consider doing that many opportunities, okay, throughout the book, if you have a much higher thing to sell them, okay? So for example, I think it was, I can't remember the name of the book. Ah, it's escaped me, but there was one—oh, it was Ask by Ryan Levesque, right? Well Ryan’s got like a premium course, he's got a service, he's got affiliate, he's got all these things. So, he basically turned his very popular book into a giant email opportunity and you can't get through at least a chapter without hitting maybe one or two opportunities. And I'll say personally he does it a little bit too much to the point that I started getting a bit annoyed. But yeah, he, he ended up getting my email probably on the seventh chapter after a while. I mean it worked! Did he get a sale from me? No—not saying it's not worth it, because I know a lot of people that did it, they enjoyed it. But he's really pushing because the book isn't his thing. What his thing is, is this much higher-cost program, or what have you. When I worked with Pat Flynn, he had the book Will it Fly?

Anna: Yup—he got me through that book! Because he had that course that you probably advised him to do.

Dave Chesson:  Yup, that was it! I'm telling you. So, what Pat did was he had this book that was Will it Fly, which teaches people, like, how to verify their business idea, right? How to validate it, will your business idea fly? And so ultimately, he then created this mini-course that is kind of like the video version of the book and it was like a study aid. So, you know, it's not like without the course, you can't finish the book—that might piss people off. But it's like more or less, like, this will help you with the book as you go. And he made it absolutely free. The other thing was, is that because it was a free course, he put at the front of the book. So, a lot of people could click on the “look inside” and sign up without even buying the book. That comes down to you and your choice.

However, though, what he basically said was one third of every person who bought the book signed up for the free course. And he had a huge email list built from this. Then he created a paid course, like, you know, the next step up. And he just—and this came from him publicly, so I'm allowed to share this—but he said that the day he launched that paid course, he made over $111,000 just to the email list that he built from that. From the book. That's it. Not his huge email list, just the people who had bought and taken the mini-course and then just on the weekend brought in six figures. So, there is definitely a strategy behind that.

Anna: And you know, you did mention if you don't have a product or whatever, it may not make sense, but what if you will one day? Why not gather these emails? Anybody who's listening?

Dave Chesson:  100 percent absolutely agree. The more emails you have, the easier the job gets. Actually, let me paint another story too. So obviously when you have more and more email, you have more and more clientele that you can proactively reach out to and get them to buy. Cool. Here's another thing too, though. If anybody out there listening has these aspirations of one day being a published author, right? Going through a publisher, I can do a whole podcast on the pros and cons on that, but one of the things that I've seen sitting in so many of these meetings and boards and discussions with the publishing companies is that really what they want to know is, are you going to make them more money? I mean, really, everything just kinda distills down to that. They may sign you, okay? But if they're not really sure, if maybe you're, you know, it's like, “It's a good book, but…we don't really know.”

You're not going to get any backing or help from them whatsoever. You're definitely not going to get money up front. You're not going to get anything. Basically what you're going to do is get a deal, they may help you put together some stuff—minimally, right, minimizing their costs—and then they're going to turn around and tell you, “Hey, you got 20,000 books to sell in the next three months.” And if you don't hit that mark, you'll never hear from them again. You also like, and yet they still control your book—that's where problems come. But here's the other thing, if you walk in and you have some reason for them to believe that they're going to get their money, or that this could really, that they're going to benefit from you? Oh yeah. You get, you get a bit of the red-carpet treatment, okay?

Because they know and the number one way to get on their radar is how much of an email list do you have? It sounds so ridiculous, but a buddy of mine, and I don't have permission to use his name since there's some personal information to this, so I'll talk around his name, but he had, I think it's over 200,000 email subscribers. And it's because he wrote a whole bunch of articles on Medium, became very popular in that respect, he definitely did some viral ones, and his email list was huge. He decided to write a book and here's the thing. They did not really care, even though he had been viral and some of those people on the board had read his viral posts—cool. That doesn't translate to book sales. Until they saw his email list size. To them, that number represented cha-ching, cha-ching, you know? Some dollar signs. Right. And three out of the five major publishing companies went into a bidding war and he got pre-paid up front $200,000 on his first book and he hadn't even written it yet.

Anna:  I think I know who this is.

Dave Chesson:  You might, you might.

Anna:  Does his first name start with B? That's all I'm asking.

Dave Chesson:  No.

Anna:  Okay, okay. This exact same thing happened to someone else I know, go on.

Dave Chesson:  Yeah, well, but that's the thing was, if he hadn't been collecting those emails, they would never have given him a chance. They might’ve signed him to something, but it would have been one of those previous stories I talked about. Instead though, they gave him the $200,000 upfront, he sat down to write his first book ever, they gave him all the best editors, the best, you know, the best time, because they needed to get their money back, right? Since they gave him money upfront, they want to get it back. They worked with him, they had their own marketing plan, they actually helped him lay out a plan, they did all these things. And yeah, they got their money back, for sure. And he still makes money after, after the fact. But the fact is that it was a much different experience only because of an email list. So anybody who's like, “Well, you know, I don't have a product or whatever.” Yeah, that's cool. Not only will that email list help you with the next book, but it helps you over time. And who knows, maybe you come up with a product or maybe on your email list, somebody tells you have a product you should make that make their life easier and then you get your product idea.

Anna:  So speaking of email lists in the very first thing you said in this, in this thing I'm unpacking, we got to know each other because I was a faithful subscriber, still am. And I saw you made a mistake—I know you never make mistakes, you made one.

Dave Chesson:  I make lots of writing mistakes (laughter).

Anna:  And it was like a mistake in the email, I don't remember, it's like a tech glitch—and I wrote you never thinking you would actually see it. And I was like, “Oh, by the way, there's this error, whatever, and I just love everything you do.” And you wrote me back! And you were so kind, and then you asked me to be on your podcast. So what an example of—I wasn't trying to get in with you. I just was a fan and saw a, you know, a mistake. And I have gotten to know people like that myself.

Dave Chesson:  And we can go even further with that. It wasn’t just that one time. It's not like you fell off the face of the earth after we had that conversation, either. You've been a constant person that I've seen, whether it was through Twitter or you know, replying or even commenting on my own articles, like, yeah. Constantly seeing that you truly are there. And then so when you, when you asked me to be on this one, I'm not, I'm not gonna lie—like, I have actually told about 90% of the people no, because of this time period, right? As we're recording, this is in November coming up on Thanksgiving soon. And usually I shut down all operations because I really want to be family-focused, so I say no. But when you asked me, I was like, “Yeah, I'll do that!”

But it was because of all of that time that you were always there. You didn't just do a single-serving friend. You were like, you were always—and so of course I'm going to do this. So again, like, yeah, this it in action, right there. And you'd be surprised, like you send an email, maybe it's your favorite author, like Orson Scott Card or something like that, you know, and you think he probably doesn't see these. Well, I'll tell you, he probably does. And so, don't think to yourself that person is too big, or whatever. If you're constantly there and constantly positive, they're going to care. And if they don't care, well then, they're not the kind of person you want to align yourself with anyways.

Anna: They're a-holes. By the way, listeners, same goes for reviews. So, when you write those mean things and you think it's not a real person that's going to see that, you're wrong.

Dave Chesson:  Oh yeah, I've got a strategy for that. I actually—

Anna: Kill them with kindness, right?

Dave Chesson:  Well, no, no, no. I don't respond to the negative reviews like that. That never works out for anybody. Unless there's a gross mistake on their part and you're kindly letting them know that you know, like for say for example, like, “I can't believe you kill this character in the first chapter!” Then you kindly let them know, “I really wish you had gotten to the fifth chapter…wink, wink, wink.” You know? Like, that's cool, but not when the person is emotional. That never works. No. But here's what, here's a strategy I love to put at the end of my book. When it comes time that you finished the book, I actually kind of continue like it's a chapter, okay? Because—and the last chapter is kind of like my struggle. My author’s struggle. All right, now—this sounds so sales market-y, since we're talking about it—here it is. I humanize myself.

I will write about what brought me to point to write this book. You know, and the fears that come from it. You know, and I'm not gonna lie, I'll even put a picture, a candid picture, not a professional picture, of me and my family. Just reminding them that the words they just wrote came from a human being. So, I'll tell a bit of my journey in the struggle and you know what I had to go through to get this thing created for them. And then what I will do is I'll also remind them how important book reviews are. And that's because readers, we authors understand it, but readers don't, not all the time. And they forget. And so I'll let them know how important that review is for me. And I let them know that I will be there to read each and every one of them.

And when you do that, if the person's gotten to this point where they're actually reading this last part, it means they've enjoyed, to some extent, your work. And now, when you come in and you bring this forward to them, you basically make it feel like they're letting you down if they don't take that simple action and leave a review. And I tell you, when I added this to like one of my original, like—I did this strategy like two or three books later, but I went back to my first ever book and put it in there—and I swear the frequency of five star reviews tripled. Readers getting to the point of it and realizing holy moly, I really should. And I think that it just makes a much better experience as well. So I would want 100 percent recommend to anybody writing, add that section to the end and really give it a thing because that will really help you get more reviews and better reviews.

And I say better because, you know, we've all been at the point where we're like talking about somebody behind their back and then, and then when they come and they show up, we're like, “Oh no—hey man, what's happening? Cool.” Right? And we just change our tone. Well guess what? That dude or dudette just poured their heart out to you and they're going to go read your statement. That person might think twice about something that’s negative. Now they're not going to change a one star to five star, but it may be a three-star instead of a one-star. See what I’m saying?

Anna: Yeah, that's brilliant. Speaking of reviews too, where do you stand on advanced reader teams?

Dave Chesson:  ARCs? Yeah. So Advanced Reader Copies and then Advanced Reader Team. In the industry they'll call them ARCs. If anybody's never come across that. I like ARCs, I think it's absolutely wonderful to build—and again, that reader team we're talking about that comes from building them up from the beginning, right? That's the people you met on the forum, that's the people you've been talking to on Facebook, that's the other authors in the industry, you know, who will then become a part of your team and then you'll probably do the same thing for them.

So again, those teams are only developed if you follow those strategies we talked about. And that's at the beginning. Those are incredibly important to give yourself a really big launch. And that's because you send out the book in advance, okay, so you have to trust them to an extent. You can use something like Bookfunnel to help control the allocation of books out there so that it doesn't, like, get pirated or something.

But you, you send the book out in advance to people, giving them an opportunity to read and then when the time comes that you launch it, you now have a known amount of people who have actually read your book, who can drop a review on the day of launch. Nothing looks worse than a book that just launched today and has zero reviews. Like even your friends and family problem won’t trust to buy it if it doesn't have reviews.

Here's a couple of tactics that I like to use with the ART team. Okay. I don't think we have enough time for me to go into the strategies to develop them, but when you do have them, one of the things I highly, highly recommend is that you create a kind of like Excel sheet where you have all of your ART team members listed and you basically mark when you last communicated with them.

Because what ends up happening is people will build this ART team and then they just treat it like one mass email. Man, if you're mass emailing me, is this really that important to you? No. But if you're personally emailing me? I feel on the hook. Now if I said I was going to be in your ART team, it means I have the intention of doing this. So just because you're being a little bit pushy about it, it isn't that you're being wrong. This person said they would, and you gave them your book for free. It's just, you're helping them to remember—that's it. So, personally talk to them, not mass email.

Second, I also like to remind them too that you didn't have to have read it. Like some people would be like, “Oh, I need to read every book.” No, no, no, no. So far, however far you are, just leave a review now and remember, you can always go back and change it.

So if that person comes back and says, “I'm not gonna lie, I got too busy, I can’t read it.” Okay, I tell you what, you know me in the industry, you know me because we talked on Facebook, you know, you know that I know the subject matter. Perhaps you can write a review on the book that is specific to me instead of the book itself. That way you're not lying. You're letting people know about the hard work I've done to get this information. You'll find that like, I honestly think that 50 percent of the reason why our team members will not leave a review is because they didn't finish the book and they think they have to in order to do it.

So, communicate that with them and let them know. And then it'd be like, “Oh cool.” Because if in the back of their mind they're like, “Man, I don't want to read this book right now, I’m busy, life is busy.” What you basically are letting them know is, “Hey, drop that review about me. And we're cool.” You go on with your busy self, you know? Like, things change, I get it, three months ago, you said you could, right now you're like, “heck no,” just two minutes and we're done. And then you don't have to feel guilty for like letting me down. That is huge. And then follow through on all of them.

A lot of people will build this ARC team, say it's like 50 people, and they'd do a mass email blast and only get five or 10 reviews and get pissy. No. Guess what? You got 50 people, talk to the 50 people individually, explain it to them and you will start to see 40, 45 reviews instead of the, you know, the five or 10 that you would get.

Anna: So good. So good. And, and okay, finally, because I know, you know, we're pressed for time. I could talk to you forever, but like, okay, one thing that you mentioned was people searching on Amazon. What you didn't mention is that you have created a product that allows people to do that, an extremely affordable product, that allows people to search categories and keywords and not just see how popular they are, but how much those authors are making. The ones who are leaders in those categories and those keywords. Can you, can you speak a little bit about that? Is there a, like, okay, if the author is making over like, whatever, over a certain amount, that's bad! Because you'll never compete. But if—you know what I mean, those numbers?

Dave Chesson:  So, when I was in Korea and I came up with my first book idea, I use a whole bunch of Excel. I used to be a nuclear engineer, so I'm pretty numbers intensive. Total nerd, I mean, what can I say? I really would, I'd have this huge system because I didn't want to have to write an entire book, and pay for a really good cover, and editor, and formatting, and then marketing efforts, only find out nobody gives a rip. You know, nobody cares. I didn't even make it so—oh, by the way, I had to totally get over my, my hang up on my own inability.

So I developed this entire system for me to kind of understand what's going on in Amazon and then to make better calls. And that was when I later on in life, I actually met a whole bunch of programmers. I was like, “Hey guys, would you mind taking all of this and just packaging it into this? So it's like super intuitive?” And we had what I called the Muzzy factor. My grandmother, her name's Muzzy—well, I call her Muzzy, she's my Muzzy—and she was our, our “Muzzy tested, Muzzy approved.”

And the idea was, is that she keeps playing with it until you know, she actually understands it. So it was, that was the hardest part. So anyways, we so we designed the software and really it, that's exactly it. It tells you what it is that people type into Amazon, how many people per month type it into Amazon, how much money authors are making that show up for that keyword phrase.

It also helps you to find the best category for your book, and by the way, there are 14,000 different categories on Amazon. And the only way that—there's no list, there's no magical list anywhere, you just have to basically click, click, click and search and search and search and hope you had end up finding all 14,000 of them or something to figure out which one's the best one for you. So, we did the hard work and we listed all 14,000 of them out there. And these are actually different than the categories when you go to publish—that's a whole ‘nother subject. But when you go to publish your book, Amazon offers you this list and it's not Amazon categories, it's actually called bisects. So a, the real categories of or aren't, aren't even offered. And there's a way to get put in for them.

So there's a lot of really cool advantages to kind of understanding what's going on in Amazon, what's going on in the market. And we basically just bottled it up inside a software and that software is called Publisher Rocket. And we've made it only $97, and that's for life. So it's not a subscription fee or anything like that, pay for it once and you get to use it, and you get all the updates and new features that we constantly add, because I'm an author myself. And so, I'm always like, “Alright, how can we make this easier? What would be better?” And yeah, I got a programming team, so we just keep adding to it.

Anna: And so, if the categories are different in Publisher Rocket than they are on Amazon, how do you transfer that?

Dave Chesson:  No problem. So yeah, so say for example, just to kind of quickly explain that is when you go to publish in KDP, Kindle Direct Publishing, Amazon asks, you know, to list which categories you think your book is a part, you click and you'll see this giant, huge dropdown box that you select. Those are actually like international standard categories. Like, like it's the universally accepted categories that all marketplaces, except it's not really categories for a store, but think of it more like a supply chain logistics thing.

So when publishers get a book, they'll choose two bisects. And then when Barnes and Noble gets the book, they translate that bisect into a category that they have, because they may not have that bisect. And so—or the ma and pa shop only has 28 categories cause they only have 28 rows, right?

Well, there's 5,000 bisects. So obviously they figured out this, this 472 is a part of this category, right? That's, that's the whole system. So, when you go to publish, Amazon offers you the bisects, and then from there they magically put you into something, and it might not even be what you thought it was. So luckily, there is a process where and if you just go to YouTube and you type in like add 10 categories or change your categories, my video should show up number one. And you can watch the process, there's a special link that you click, and then it takes you to the special page on Amazon where you fill out this form, and literally it's like Dropbox, I show you over my shoulder how you do it.

And then you copy and paste what we call a category string, which is what Rocket shows you, into the form and say add my book for this. And within 24 hours, done. Or if you're in the United States, you can actually get Amazon to call you. Like I'm talking like less than a minute later, somebody calls you and you just tell them over the phone, “Hey man, my book is such and such. The ASN number is this and I want you to add it to this category string, this category string, this category string, this category string.” And within minutes of hanging out with them, your book has been included.

Anna: I've done it. I've done it for all my clients, it's amazing. They're real nice about it too, happy to do it! Okay, so to wrap up, your top tips for somebody doing a launch. Would you say start preparing the minute you start typing, and get your groups, both of influencers, for lack of a better word, and colleagues, use Publisher Rocket, you didn't say it, I did. So to wrap up, can we just wrap up with your, you know, summary of the tips?

Dave Chesson:  Yeah. Well let's, there's two major things I'd like people to walk away with. The number one is like you said, when you go to start writing your book, start building those relationships. Start getting to know your market. That will pay off in the long run and make things so much easier and so much better. So do that. All right? Then number two is that when you get closer, make sure you have a plan. And I'm sure that through the other people you're going to interview here, you're going to hear a lot of great tactics. And there are a lot out there.

You choose the tactics you want, but have it planned out. Like almost like kind of like project management where you've got a schedule. And you're trying to, instead of doing everything on day one, spread it out so that your book continues to have constant sales and not just one giant spike. I would say that those two things, right there are the two big picture, most important things an author can do to really have a successful launch.

Anna: Okay. And let's just say release week—your actual launch. What are the top few things somebody could do?

Dave Chesson:  Well, like I said before, it's about spreading out your, your objectives, right? So, if you have somehow collected—if I'm working with an author has 10,000 different emails, like emails, right? I actually will break up the email list into different cohorts. Instead of just one giant blast, I will maybe email one fourth of them on the first week or the first couple of days, the other fourth.

And so that way it's not just one giant spike. And then, well that tactics done, I guess. Instead, I'm benefiting from using my email list. And I'll also, two on my email list, I will reply or I will send another email to those who didn't open up the first one. Just in case, either it went to spam or they weren't interested in my subject header. And so that way I have a rolling effect of email over time. That's one thing.

Amazon Ads we didn't talk about, I think that one's a phenomenal one that should be a part of anybody's strategy. Because that helps your book for sure to get in front of people, that helps you to get sales and keep relevancy score up. But like, you know, if you, if you're building your tactics, maybe Facebook page has been a huge thing for you. Maybe not announce to your Facebook page or to your, to your friends in the Facebook page about your book until after a couple of days—because you have one strategy that's in effect for the first couple of days. Then maybe you use this strategy on the third day.

You can see where I'm going is that there will be a lot of strategies. Everybody's going to hear a part of a launch and that's cool. And there are so many. You choose what want to do, but you plan them out so they're spread out a bit, not all in one day.

Anna:  So good. So good. Thank you, Dave, so much. Oh, by the way, do you still have that free course on Amazon Ads available?

Dave Chesson:  I do actually.

Anna: Where can people grab that?

Dave Chesson:  It’s amscourse.com. Made it as simple as one can remember in this case they're driving. Yeah, it's a full free video course showing everything I know. Matter of fact, before I go to work at a publishing company or doing any consulting, I send them the course and be like, “First, take that.” So that way I don't have to spend the first couple of hours while I'm on the clock explaining these things to you. So, I don't hold back on it.

Anna: And it's free?

Dave Chesson:  100 percent.

Anna: Well, Dave, thank you again and if people want to find you, kindlepreneur.com is that the best place?

Dave Chesson:  That's the best one!

Anna:  Thank you, thank you, and thank you for listening. You rock.

Dave Chesson:  Take care and thank you for having me.

 

The Scribe Publishing Scandal: What Happens When the Leader in Your Field Goes Down in Flames

This special episode is a solo chat about the implosion of Scribe Media. While it doesn't contain tips about how to launch a book that transforms your career, it's a deep dive into what NOT to do when building a business from your book. Everything in here is, like all episodes, just my opinion but I've been in a unique position where I've been receiving constant updates and information from people who have the inside scoop on the Scribe shitshow.

PROMISED LINKS: 

Petition by fired workers

Reddit thread on the drama

Javon McCormick LinkedIn announcement

Meghan McCracken LinkedIn announcement

The Scribe Media Files podcast

HERE'S HOW I CAN HELP YOU WHEN YOU'RE READY:

→ You can sign up to hear my secrets every week at www.AuthoritySecrets.Club

→ You can grab my Book Launch Blueprint for $20 (it gives you over 29 PDFs that we use for the launches of clients who pay tens of thousands of dollars) 

→ You can apply for a call to work with Legacy Launch Pad (we have packages that range from $3k-150k)

TRANSCRIPT

If this is new to you, the short story is that there was a hybrid publishing company called Scribe that has been in chaos. And I have very intentionally not chimed in on the chaos because I have watched other hybrid indie custom publishers descend like hawks and start running ads that say “We're the alternative to Scribe” and writing posts that say “If you were left by Scribe in the lurch than we're here to save you.” If you're not familiar with what I'm talking about, about a month ago—this is being recorded on June 25 2023—Scribe fired without warning, roughly 70% of their staff. They had 130 employees and they basically just fired them without any warning and without any severance.

Until recently, its CEO was someone named Javon McCormick and right under him was someone named Meghan McCracken. There was an episode of a podcast by somebody named Sam Lacrosse called the Scribe Media Files, where he was basically called the Zoom meeting, this town hall that had Scribe clients and employees and all of these people who could talk about what had happened. 

And there was very negative feedback about Meghan, but she was sort of left in charge. And then, roughly a week ago, she resigned. And while she was a little bit opaque in what she said about leaving, the quote she wrote on LinkedIn is “If anyone takes advantage of the best things within you, your compassion, your desire to be a part of something bigger, your huge heart, your desire to help that is not for you to be ashamed of.” 

That’s seemingly passing the blame to Javon McCormack, but none of this this was clear. And so everybody is kind of passing the baton. And meanwhile, Scribe employees are left without any warning, without any paycheck, without any severance. So what a petition was very quickly started up and change.org with the goal of 500 signatures, which has as of this recording 495 signatures, It's asking for severance packages, a $1000 therapy stipend for each affected individual and for people to be granted ownership and unrestricted access to their hardware.

It sounds like employees were cut off from the books they were working on. And they were told they could not speak to their clients which in Scribe terminology, their clients are called “authors.” In the Scribe files audio that I heard, there was a former Scribe employee who talked about how she was working on six different books at once and how she was told she couldn't be in touch with those clients, leaving them in the lurch.

Meanwhile, the people who were left at Scribe were reaching out to these clients, and saying, “Oh, there's nothing to worry about, don't worry about the headlines. We've got this all under control.” This made of course, no sense because they really had no staff anymore. And so it's just been a shitshow. 

Now I’m somebody who started a company because I admired what Scribe was doing so much…well, I admired about 75% of what they were doing. I've just been watching, astounded, and learning so much, basically, about what not to do.

What’s happened since all of this is that a company called Enduring Ventures announced a few days ago that they were buying it. And they announced on the Scribe LinkedIn page; there was something from the founder of Enduring Ventures, which said that they were coming in and saving the day.

And that’s crucial because there were hundreds of books that were clients had paid in advance. And you know, if you tallied up with what Scribe charges and the numbers, it was millions upon millions of dollars.

And everybody has sort of said different things—that basically it was everything from it was a Ponzi scheme to it just really mismanaged. The history of Scribe is that it was started by I Hope They Serve Beer in Hell author Tucker Max, and his partner Zach. And they started this company, and it became successful. 

And then a few years ago—this was also very opaque—they left but it was never clear. Apparently, they were selling it to Javon McCormack that wasn't stated explicitly. But they “left.” However, Tucker Max has run many workshops there. I personally know people who he has signed to be clients in the last couple of years, people where he said, “I'm going to be working personally on your book.” But when all of this stuff came up with Scribe, somebody asked him on Twitter, “What's your feeling about this?” And he said, “I haven't been involved with the company in years.”

So there are very much conflicting reports about that and I did hear from somebody that he was on a very generous retainer fee. So Enduring Ventures announced that they were coming in. And what was interesting is that, the founder said on LinkedIn, “If you need to direct your anger at someone, direct it at me. I didn't cause the issues, but perhaps I can solve them with enough time.”

Which, if you're watching the way that I sort of have been watching with who is actually going to take responsibility for this, it's not JT McCormick. It's not Meghan McCracken. Okay, so it's this guy who's going in and say, I'm taking responsibility, but it wasn't my fault. I feel like maybe it's living in Hollywood. And having worked at People Magazine and US Weekly, I have learned that we will forgive anything, if somebody takes responsibility. I know that from my personal life too. And I think the reason that it just kind of gets worse and worse and worse is that people are saying they're taking responsibility, but then they're sort of also saying at the same time that it's not their fault.

So when I say I really admired about 75% of what Scribe was doing, I often stood back and marveled at the fact that they were very proud of the fact that they had released 1000s of books, because I know what it takes to release a high quality book. And it takes love and determination and time and energy and just something that I don't believe could really be replicated 1000s of times. We work with a fraction of the people who reach out to us and we really won't take anybody that we don't believe can earn back 10 to 100 times their investment. We release fewer than 15 books or 20 books a year and each one is very much a labor of love. So I would stand there and I would look at what they were doing. And I just assumed because the publicity around it was so good that they had figured out a way to produce really high quality in mass volume.

And yet, many of our clients are people who have either worked with Scribe in the past or had spoken to them and had decided to work with us. I always explained we are very, very different; we're almost the exact opposite. And the people who decided to do their second books with us talked a lot about how the Scribe books were not what they wanted, they weren't happy with the results, they had to rewrite the entire thing. And, and while I know that, that you're never going to have a 100% happiness success rate, there are some clients that are never going to be happy no matter what you do. What I thought was interesting is Meghan McCracken would put these videos—I was on their newsletter list—and she'd send out videos every week and one of the videos said, “100% of our clients have been thrilled with their experience,” which just stood out to me not just because I don't think there's any company in the world that can say that, but also because I had so much information that refuted that.

I also noticed that they were getting by based on some exaggerated claims. They did work on David Goggins book which was a massive book and a huge, huge success. But they also touted the fact often that they published Tiffany Haddish’s book. Now, Tucker Max wrote her book but it was published by Gallery Books, which is a division of Simon and Schuster. And I noticed that they were promoting it on their website, very much leading people to believe they had published it, which would, of course, be a very big deal. David Goggins became very well known as a result of the book, but Tiffany Haddish was very famous, I would say more famous than David Goggins. And so if she had chosen to work with Scribe, that would have been different. And I wondered, “Okay, if they're fudging the details on that, and that I think that is a pretty big detail to fudge, what else are they fudging?”

There were all these articles and stories about how Scribe is the best place to work. It is the happiest workplace on earth. I actually just finished reading a book about Tony Hsieh, the founder of Zappos, he was obsessed with Zappos being the happiest place to work. He died very tragically a few years ago in a fire but it was controversial. And the end result is that he sounded like one of the least happy individuals on Earth. So whenever hearing a place is so happy, my ears perk up and I think, if you're happy, aren't you just being happy and not talking about it everywhere?

Also Javon McCormick made it very clear that he was very interested in promoting his personal brand. He posted all the time on LinkedIn. He published his own book, and he made it really clear that that's what he wanted to do. I have a friend who talked to him about a partnership with Scribe and this friend said that really all he talked about this wanting to do to further his own personal brand. And there’s a lot of buzz that he became more interested in becoming famous than he did in running this big company. 

What the Scribe Files podcast that I listened to said that he had leased this very expensive building in Austin right when the pandemic hit and so everybody kind of converted to work from home. And so it was just a really poor investment that drained money. They also had 130 employees and that is a massive, massive overhead.

I also noticed when I would talk to a lot of potential clients, they would say, “Scribe charges less” but I looked at their website and I would see that their think was to upsell; they give you this kind of low ish sounding price. And then you get in and they go, “Well, you really need this marketing.”

And I could look at the marketing offer and because of what I know about publishing, I could see that it was BS; it would say, we're going to pitch you to 100 podcasts, we're going do this, we’re going to release this press release. And I could look at this long list of 12 things and go, that is taking them about two hours and about $500 in expenses. And there were no guarantees. And so somebody who doesn't know media at all would look at that and think it sounded like a great thing, I could tell it wasn't.

And so it turns out, that was being run by somebody who really didn't know anything about marketing; I talked to a former Scribe employee this week who just said everybody there knew it sucked. But this person was in charge, and there was nothing they could do. The conclusion is don't have a marketing plan that is run by someone who doesn't know book marketing.

And really, I think that's a really big determination, if anybody runs a business and is looking for what not to do. When Tucker Max left, the people who were running this organization had no experience with publishing. And I noticed because there are a lot of other hybrid or custom publishing companies run by people who seem to have discovered that book publishing is a good business to be in but they have zero experience.

One of the things that I'm very proud of is that I come from traditional publishing; I've done six books with HarperCollins, I did a book with Simon and Schuster, I've hit the New York Times bestseller list. So I'm able to take those elements of traditional publishing and merge them with the way publishing works today. So I think that if you're going to have a publishing company, have someone running it who has lots of experience in publishing. 

And so, a month after all of this, Scribe has not updated their LinkedIn or their website, which seems dishonest. I ran into somebody I know who is a client. I saw him about two weeks ago and we were talking about this. And he said to me, “Oh, Scribe has personally reached out to me, and they said it's business as usual and don't believe the headlines.” And it turned out that that was that was not true. 

I promise you that I am not concluding I'm so great and Scribe is so terrible. I think I have made tons and tons of mistakes as a publisher. And I've also learned a lot from Scribe, all positive things. I think what I've learned from this is that in addition to everything I've said, even the most successful systems can go belly up if they're mismanaged.

And I do think that much like a person needs to consistently grow if they're going to evolve and remain healthy and all of those things, a business always does too. And I know that there was a lot of bravado by the original founders, about “We know everything and this is how it's done.” And the reality is that you have to consistently study and consistently be educating yourself so that you don't rest on your laurels. 

And I think this just shows what a volatile business this can be if people are trying to do it as a factor. Books are not cans of soup; they are exquisitely loved into existence, and part of me is relieved to find out that wasn't wrong, that that didn't make any sense. I did want to say I have deep admiration for what Scribe was able to do. And I think it's really tragic to have your legacy attached to something that went down in flames.

I think anybody can learn from this. You may be considering working with a hybrid publisher. Or maybe you are studying what hybrid publishers do and are doing it on your own or maybe you are still submitting to traditional publishers. I would in addition to listening to this, Google and find out what is out there about Scribe.

CLICK ON ANY OF THE LINKS BELOW TO HEAR THIS EPISODE OR CLICK HERE TO GET THE POD ON ANY PLATFORM

Find Out What People Really Think of Your Cover & Title with John Li

 

Regular listeners know that I'm obsessed with PickFu, a software that, in technical terms, provides actionable pre-launch feedback on creative options. (How obsessed? I never had ads on the podcast because I wanted to wait until there was something I loved so much that I could recommend it without reservations. And, well, PickFu is it!)

That's why I was delighted to welcome PickFu's co-creator John Li onto the show. And it's also why I'm delighted to use PickFu to get feedback on my covers, titles, book descriptions and Amazon book pages, among many other things. Yes, you can go onto PickFu set up a poll and ask between 50 and 500 people—hand-selected based on interests, income and thousands of other options—for feedback. This isn't "Yeah, that's good" feedback either; it's feedback that people who want to participate in polling are being compensated to do—millions and millions of people, as it turns out.

In this episode, John walks us through how PickFu started, the craziest things it's used for and why someone with no need for an income would want to participate in something like polls.

Listen in and my God, if you know what's good for you, please give PickFu a try. If you use the code Pickfu.com/anna, you'll get 50% off your first poll!

HERE'S HOW I CAN HELP YOU WHEN YOU'RE READY:

→ You can sign up to hear my secrets every week at www.AuthoritySecrets.Club

→ You can grab my Book Launch Blueprint for $20 (it gives you over 29 PDFs that we use for the launches of clients who pay tens of thousands of dollars) 

→ You can apply for a call to work with Legacy Launch Pad (we have packages that range from $3k-150k)

CLICK ON ANY OF THE LINKS BELOW TO HEAR THIS EPISODE OR CLICK HERE TO GET THE POD ON ANY PLATFORM

Lessons Learned from my Most Recent Launch

 

It was a meta on top of a meta on top of a meta experience to record this episode, which is all about what worked and didn't work for the launch of my most recent book (which happened to be based on podcast interviews I've done on this show).

This means that for the launch, I tried out a lot of the things experts have recommended on this very show...some were very effective, some not so much. While it's impossible to say what the end result of all my launch efforts will be because our books have long lives and what we do at launch could end up paying off 100-fold down the line, I give you here the bird's eye view from six weeks post-launch.

HERE'S HOW I CAN HELP YOU WHEN YOU'RE READY:

→ You can sign up to hear my secrets every week at www.AuthoritySecrets.Club

→ You can grab my Book Launch Blueprint for $20 (it gives you over 29 PDFs that we use for the launches of clients who pay tens of thousands of dollars) 

→ You can apply for a call to work with Legacy Launch Pad (we have packages that range from $3k-150k)

CLICK ON ANY OF THE LINKS BELOW TO HEAR THIS EPISODE OR CLICK HERE TO GET THE POD ON ANY PLATFORM

 

The Power of a Writing Group with Tim Gager

 

 When someone says they're in a writing group, that can mean many things. 

They may be doing a "write your book in a weekend" class or sitting down with fellow writers once a month.

For Tim Gager, it means showing up five days a week, online, for the past three years.

That's because Tim runs the writing group I started when the pandemic hit. In those three years, at least 10 of its members have launched books and numerous movie projects, in-person readings and lifelong friendships have come to be.

Yet, in all that time, I've somehow never talked about the writing group on the podcast. Well, that all changed with this episode, where we dove into how a writing group transformed Tim's life and career. I should mention that when he joined the group, he was already a critically acclaimed author of 16 books!

For more information about the writing group, click here. For more information about Tim Gager, click here.

HERE'S HOW I CAN HELP YOU WHEN YOU'RE READY:

→ You can sign up to hear my secrets every week at www.AuthoritySecrets.Club

→ You can grab my Book Launch Blueprint for $20 (it gives you over 29 PDFs that we use for the launches of clients who pay tens of thousands of dollars) 

→ You can apply for a call to work with Legacy Launch Pad (we have packages that range from $3k-150k)

TRANSCRIPT:

Tim: Amazing.

Anna: Tim, we're doing this.

Tim: I’m excited.

Anna: I know, it's kind of amazing. So Tim, let's just, I, I will have done an intro. So everyone will know that you have however many books. 17?

Tim: 18.

Anna: 18? Oh, that was a good guess. 18 books. You and I met on Friendster.

Tim: That is correct. And Friendster, look how far Friendster has gone, like its original Friendster connection.

Anna: I know what, I mean, you're my only one. It's not like I met anyone else there.

Tim: Well you know, those circles, those concentric circles. You know, you can't deny that.

Anna: No, you can't deny it. So, so then what happened is when the pandemic started and I sent out an email that said, hey, will anybody who wants to jump on and write a 10am Pacific join? What happened then? How do you…

Tim: I got this email. I was on your mailing list to begin with. And I get this email during the pandemic. And I'm kind of like, well, you know, what do I do during that time? Stare at the wall or work on some writing and I was like I'm in. And I was introduced to some amazing people that, you know, I'm still in contact with today, amazing people, amazing connections. And, you know, three years later, we're still meeting daily.

Anna: So it's crazy. So, so we should explain you now run it. And you're someone who showed up from the beginning. And, and so we are in the process of potentially coming up with a new name. It has been called the Inner Circle that was just like a random name that came up. It seems to encompass everything I don't like, which is it sounds exclusive. And this is the most inclusive community that I'm aware of. But so what's, what's happened over these three years for you there?

Tim: For me, besides now running the group, wow.

Anna: Yeah.

Tim: It’s, the group has changed. We've had a different cast of characters. I've really gotten to know these people. You run into them daily. And these people might, are my friends. And if I go out of town for a reading, they all show up if I'm in their town. And I show up for them. It allows too that it's really, really interesting that how we support one another. I really feel the support from the group. And I think the group feels support from each other in terms of where to go in their writing, getting feedback, things like that. And for me, it's just been a real, real blessing that, you know, I've been in face-to-face writers’groups and this seems like one of the best face-to-face writers group, and it also keeps me accountable. I mean, I've got that hour to write every day, which is something that I need.

Anna: Yeah, I mean, I'll say. So it started and like you said, it's been a different cast of characters. And then, once it was going for a couple of months, I said, I'm gonna monetize this. It's to, it's taking my time, but also as my mentor Joe says, when people pay, they pay attention. And by charging, just, you know, a sort of nominal amount, and we do, sort of do scholarships if it's somebody who really wants to do it and that amount isn't, you know, isn't feasible. It really went to a new level. So let's talk about what happened once people started paying.

Tim: People paid, they showed up, they wrote books, they finished books. They, they honed their craft. And they're just really, really just, in fact, to see some of the people at the core people show up every day. And there's a solid core, but there are people that show up once a week or twice a week. I mean, I was, I was joking with Friday Ray, because Ray's there every Friday. That's his day. And, you know, also the connections too, like, these are people that, you know, they're paying, but they're also really, really, kind of a lot of them are well known, and they're very, very modest individuals. And I've been able to use those connections for my benefit, and I've been able to use my knowledge to help them because many people have not finished their first book and, you know, we point them in that direction.

Anna: How many books have been published from the Inner Circle, do you know?

Tim: I’ve lost count. I would say that in the group, say that, you know, we've had 40 to 50 people run in and out, I think we're almost at a 50% rate for even people that have showed up just one time. I mean, they count as a loss [laughs]. But we've had so many books, you know, and I can't even, I can't even name them. But, you know, I've read each and every one of them. Part of our support is to have the advanced readers team. And that catapults all of us into the, you know, the sights and minds on Amazon, in terms of, you know, Amazon promoting our books for us. So that was a great little, great little lesson I learned.

Anna: So you had published 15. Yes, so you had published 15 books, I think. And then you discovered what we do for each other, which is, you know, we sign up for each other's launch squads, and then we read the book ahead of time, and listeners have heard me talk about this. You know, and so you experienced what it was like to, you know, on your 16th book, I think, to get a number one bestseller,

Tim: And ever since, you know, I’ve had three number one bestsellers.

Anna: Right.

Tim: And it just, you know, it's so validating that, you know, I've been trying to get, you know, my books recognized, and also in the hands of people. And you know, it's really exciting to have a number one best seller. Sometimes it's humorous. I got Amazon, and it was Amazon subcategory which was wrong, which was like science fiction poetry something and it's kind of like, well, number three in science fiction poetry, like, that doesn't, that's not really describing my work at all. Let's do the aliens sonnet.

Anna: Yeah, a part

Tim: Part flying saucer, haiku time.

Anna: Yeah. Party Girl was humorous science fiction.

Tim: Yeah.

Anna: And so, and so we were talking before we were recording about how people's writing has improved, which, okay, I'm going to tell you the honest to God truth. When we started the Inner Circle, I thought, these sweet people, this is never gonna happen. And it really was a testament to showing up and writing every day, because six months later, I come back, and I'm listening to professional writers. What happened?

Tim: Professional writers and professional promoters. And what happens, which is so wonderful about the group is, if you're working at something, especially writing, writing’s the perfect example, that if you're working every day, you can't get worse. You can only get better as a writer. You can only get better. And that's what happened. And also with the shared knowledge, in terms of promotion, and also in terms of writing, like just very, very basic stuff becomes, becomes mastered, like, how do you hook the beginning of a book? How do you hook the end of a chapter? You know, how do you do things like that, that, you know, if you're a beginner writer, you don't think about it or you're told about it after you finish the entire manuscript, and you gotta go back and create this really fake hook thing. So people gain the knowledge along the way. What we don't do is we don't complete the book for you. I think a lot of people come in, they expect, okay, we're having a one-on-one meeting, let's go to, through your book, page by page, word by word, and we don't do that. And I mean we could, but that's a whole different concept. And that's, you know, that's developmental editing so, which is something actually that I've become involved in since this writing group. So again, it's another…

Anna: I know, I love that. Yet, so I love that too because the last time I was there, you know, Heather's like, I, I was thinking, and I was thinking, I was like, who do I want as my developmental editor? And it was Tim, you know. So it's, it's really given you, you know, let's not call it a new career. You very much have your own careers going, but, but, you know. I don't know, had you ever been a group facilitator before? I know, you've been doing those reading series forever. But…

Tim: Very briefly, like, I've done workshops in high schools, or like student day of poetry and the whole day of like, running workshops, and I've been in other writers groups, but in terms of like a daily facilitator, and being able to, you know, share information. No, I've not, but it's, you know, I think when I was picked to do it, I was thrilled. I just think it's such a natural fit.

Anna: And it is, you know, just like anything it was, it was work to, to get to that, you know, we, we had another, a number of people go in and out and everything is just finding the right fit. And the feedback I get about you as a facilitator is just, it's just crazy good. So, so you know what I think is really interesting is this whole time it's been going, you know, I'm pretty much uninvolved. I, I go one to two times a month. But I always was like, I don't know, what is this? How do I describe this? And I, and it was only in the last couple of months, honestly, that I realized how, I don't want to sound dramatic. Like I really think it saved people's lives.

Tim: I agree.

Anna: A couple people would not literally be here without it. Because it came along at a very challenging time in the world and in people's lives. And it, I know, I know you don't love it when people say that it's, you know, the best therapy in the world. But how do you think in terms of support and writing, it fits together?

Tim: It's important as a writer to have a safe space. Because if you're writing really hard stuff, you're tearing off that band aid. And if you're doing it in front of people that you've haven't had conversations with. Our folks, it's really kind of funny, we, four days a week, we come in, and we check in before we do our hours of writing. And sometimes the check in is all personal stuff. And it's like people trust each other. And but it's kind of like, I'll let the personal stuff go for five minutes, experience be like, okay, let's check in on writing now, like, what are you working on today? So it's all connected to have a safe place to write and have a safe place to hang out. And, like, I feel like in that group, I can tell people anything, which means if I'm writing something, I can write anything. I can write my innermost secrets, like I can, like stuff, I wouldn't even reveal in step five [laughs], I’m like telling…

Anna: Yeah, really?

Tim: I'm telling people. I'm able to write about it now. Funny thing, I know a lot of know step five. Step five is when you reveal to another people, all the horrible things you did, that's the basic thing. And like, when, I when I did mine in program, I didn't even do it with anyone. I didn't want anyone that I knew to know about my stuff, or like, maybe get circulated in the group. So my therapist at the time, he had gone through 12 steps, and he was in recovery, too. So I said, can I do my step five with you? So I paid $150 an hour to do my step five, so it was [laughs] a paid, a paid step.

Anna: Yeah, and my poor sponsors have listened to hours and hours and hours for the price of free. And so, you know, I know Leianne always goes, you know, it's the cheapest therapy in the world. It works out to $4 an hour. The things we have walked each other through, not really me, but you guys have walked each other through. I mean, we have had a lot of people in recovery. A lot of people. I mean, for a while, we had three people who were writing about coming out of a cult. We have seen people through the deaths of family, we lost a fam-, Inner Circle member. And, you know, and lots of tears have been shed. It's pretty amazing, because, and I'm not promoting the, this group through this conversation. I have never really done much to tell people about it. It’s very much, I would say, it's hard to find [laughs]. You got to work to find it and get in. And you and I have talked about, like, you know, should we be expanding it more? Should it be multiple groups? What are your thoughts on it?

Tim: I mean, I think that it's, it's the world is the oyster, you know, like, I think that we can expand if we want to, we don't have to. Like I'm always open for a challenge. And I think it would function just as well. Now Leianne saying that the group is the cheapest therapy you can find. Let me tell you even Leianne has that point of view. She has grown so much as a writer and as a critique-er. Like, looking at other people's work, she has been so spot on as, as of late. And, you know, that wasn't always the case. And when you learn other things, in terms of critical listening, and when you're looking at other people's stuff, you're able to look at it within your stuff. And Barbara too. Like you know, Barbara wrote a wonderful book about, you know, the loss of her son to addiction and through suicide and like you know, Barbara is one of the most supportive persons. Now she volunteers with families and individuals who have lost people like that day. Like, she's like on this team that goes to the site and you know, what growth by her and, you know, she's got two books now. You know, through our group.

Anna: Yeah. And I remember when she first came to me, that had just happened.

Tim: I remember.

Anna: It had just, she had just lost her son. And I said, join this group right now. And there have been a lot of people that I've sort of run across in my travels. And I've said, join this group now. And sometimes they listen. LaTonya was someone I met at South by Southwest.

Tim: She’s back. And she actually, she finished her training and she was back yesterday. And it was such a joy to see her. What a wonderful person.

Anna: Yeah, so it's like, I never know who's really going to listen and show up because I will say this: It's a scary thing to show up. And you and I have seen probably, you haven't seen as many as I have. I would say there have been 60 to 70 people over the three years who have applied, been accepted, and ghosted. So they showed up and went to the trouble of saying, I want to do this. I'm going to apply and then couldn't show up for themselves when it happened. Like what do you, what do you think about that?

Tim: Some people love the idea of having a book. They really love it. I think everybody, it's kind of like, you fantasize about being a rock star or a pro athlete. I think people fantasize about being an author and finishing a book. But when push comes to shove, unfortunately, you have to write it [laughs]. You know, the hardest thing about writing a book is writing a book. And you know, I'm not saying that that's the case with everybody. But I think like when the grim reality set in, like, oh, it's like a one day at a time thing, right? If you're looking at something the rest of your life, or I've got to finish this book now, or immediately, it can be overwhelming. And you know, that's why the day to day is really great. And when it comes to reality, sometimes people are like, you know what? I just don't want to put in the work.

Anna: Yeah, yeah. And I think that what's also interesting, and I know I'm jumping from topic to topic, is the, the wide variety of topics. We have a book that was published by a member that was all about saving yourself for marriage, The 49 Year Old Virgin.

Tim: Dr. Paula Perez. Yeah.

Anna: 49 years old, right? And then we have a book in the works that's all about understanding your sensuality, and you know, and your sexuality. I know, she's all, she's always like, it's not the same thing. But I just love that, you know, it really spans the gamut of topics. We are, you know, as they say in program, we are people who would normally not mix.

Tim: Exactly. Yeah. And to have somebody, I mean, Dr. Paula Perez is an educator, married to a holy man. She's very holy herself. And you know, we're able to look at each other's differences, but like, you know, there’s this common theme of support and love and writing. And we're able to look past all of that, all of our differences. Yes, Dr. Paula Perez has started a tip jar for anyone that swears, so like money's coming in that way.

Anna: Oh, no. No. I know, every time I show up and swear, I'm like, sorry, sorry Paula. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. I'm like, but you know, it’s how I talk. You know, and so I will say, to kind of going back to what we were talking about before. I always felt how do I promote this book? Because we're not teaching you how to write a book. There are so many programs out there that are like, write a book in a weekend, write a book in a week, right, you know, and it's not that. And I felt so good when, when Ray showed up and said, you know, and he's a super successful Hollywood guy. And he shows up and he says, I've joined a lot of writing groups. And this is the first one where I actually felt people cared about each other. And we, I know we've talked about that. I was only in one writing group ever, when I lived in New York, and I would pretty much cry afterwards. And it's the one book that I never finished writing because I just felt like it got so torn to threads, I think, to shreds. You know and, and I don't know how it became this, like loving family. I really, really don't. But what do you think?

Tim: I'm in full agreement, I think, you know, we've become this family because I think we're really gentle with each other. You don't always have to tear books down or be competitive, or, you know, try to show how much…we're very humble people. We're not trying to show how much we know by cutting down others. And even if someone is reading something, or submits some work for critique, people only get encouragement. And they're able, because it's a safe place. They're also able to take the critical types of critiques and use them and work with them because there's, there's trust there, you know. It's not like, you know, it's, it's a team. It's not a bunch of like mean people. I always think of, even though it crosses all genders, Mean Girls, you know. It's all genders. There are mean boys, mean guys, mean groups. And it's not that at all. There's none of that really like, snide backstabbings, group dynamics stuff that you can find almost in every group, whether it's a writing group or book club or a cooking group. Like there's none of that rumor and snide stuff. We're all very, very open with each other. Not all personalities meld. But you know, it's, it's all good really.

Anna: But we've almost with, almost without exception, never had a problem. It's, you know, because one bad apple can really affect things. And it, I don't mean to be so whatever, but it does feel sort of divinely chosen, almost each person. And I'm not blowing smoke. But I do think a lot of that humility really does come from you. And it's like, when Jeff Cooper joined in, all these people, like you had, however many books and the group was being facilitated by people who had no writing experience and yet you showed up. And I really, really do think that has been an example. Because you were so humble, I had no idea how many books you had until we were going in this. Well, you know, recovery has taught me humility. And when I attend my recovery meetings, I don't say that I'm a writer, and I don't…and people are actually surprised. So that's been good practice for me. And it's a good lesson for me. And I think it's important because, as writers we fall into this world, we need to separate from, right? There's this world of promotion, that we don't know, we need to promote, but we don't necessarily believe all the things about ourselves that we're putting out there. Like, we're not walking down the street saying, hey, read my new book. Hey, I'm at the corner store, check out this blurb. And you know, we don't do that. And I think we get misunderstood for that a lot. So we have to try extra, extra hard in our real lives to be humbled.

Anna: Yeah, that's a really good point. And about the promotion thing. I would say, since you and I got into publishing that has changed a lot. When we first got in, you didn't have to worry about that. There was no social media. You could do press if you wanted, but there was no putting yourself out there. And I have really had a turnaround where I went from really resenting it to really thinking it's a privilege because listeners have heard me say this before, but it's like social media is our opportunity to have our own TV stations, art galleries, magazines, TV shows and, and if we look at it as a privilege and not an albatross, what an amazing thing to be able to say: I am an expert. I don't need gatekeepers to tell me that I have chosen myself. And I think we've really nudged each other. I would say you have become somebody more comfortable with…

Tim: I think it's really, really, because there's so many different options. It's really, really empowering, which direction you take. There are so many different avenues to promote. And, you know, more is better isn't always the case. But sometimes better is better. A former member of ours, and current friend, which of course I retain all these friendships. Dar Dixon, who's an actor and producer, he was, I was just talking to him the other day, and he was like, I walk into auditions. And they ask me, how many followers do you have on social media? And he says, I don't even go there. And it's got nothing to do with what I do. And very often followers don't mean much of anything in the book world. They're just people that throw likes at you. Do they throw book sales at you? Probably not as many as you think.

Anna: Alas, yeah, I mean, the New York Times did a story in 2021 about how Justin Timberlake had set you know, 4.8 million followers, no 34.8 million whatever it was, and sold like under 100,000 books, which is of course a whole lot of books, but not really and that it's not about followers. It's about engagement. It's about does, do these followers want to read what you have and it's a very, yesterday I put up with posts, hey, join my advanced reader to my launch squad. Maybe, I got a lot of followers, I maybe got 10 people, not a lot.

Tim: That’s surprising. You do so much for so many people. That’s surprising that people just wouldn't jump on that.

Anna: I was surprised too. I know. I mean we're doing okay, but I will say most members of the Inner Circle have not joined yet so…

Tim: They will.

Anna: You did immediately.

Tim: They will, they will. They love you. They will.

Anna: Now wait, there was something else I was gonna say. so talk about so, you know, the connections you've made and the people in there like what you and Cory are working on.

Tim: Yeah, Cory and I, we’re having this, you know, we've had a slight delay, but we have this sort of symbiotic relationship, that I'm helping Cory with his book and he's helping me write a screenplay. And, you know, maybe I think he might have more clout in that world than I have in my world. But you know, Cory is so humble. And he's so easy to work with and he’s so excited about everything. It's so great to be working with Cory. And like, it's not like, you know, you can go out to Hollywood in California and people are, they’re, they’re…Someone described this the other day. They're nice, but they're not kind. You know, there's a lot of disingenuous type of people but Cory is so genuine. Yeah, he’s so genuine. He’s been…

Anna: I mean…

Tim: He’s been through the wringer. And he's come out…

Anna: I, I just was gonna challenge that.

Tim: Go ahead.

Anna: Sorry.

Tim: No go ahead, you were gonna challenge…

Anna: Well, no, I was just gonna say, I don't I, I, yeah, I mean, I live here and I find some of the kindest people ever. You know, I, I hate those stereotypes about LA, like because it's just never been my experience. However, it's not like I'm, you know, work at CAA. So it's not like I'm in the cutthroat world. But yeah, Cory is like a puppy. And, and I love too how this group, I met Cory at an event I did because his wife Stephanie came. And you know, and then Leianne was my, my roommate when I graduated from college. I mean, I just love how, how random just the joining is. Like I said, LaTonya I met at South by Southwest like it really, it really is right now. But now, okay, you can talk about the bad LA people. But how Cory’s a good one.

Tim: I’m not saying bad LA, please love me. I'm not talking about you bad LA people. But like, one thing, like people like Cory too. Gifted, talented writers who've never been told that and have never shown their work. And like, those are the people that just work so well in Inner Circle. Like, they need this push, like, wow, like, you know, this, this is great. You know, this is great stuff. And you know, your life is fascinating. And I can't write that. I can't write like that. Everyone writes differently. I think it's, you know, I come in with book writing experience, quote, unquote, but like, I don't write like anybody else in that group. And they don't write like anybody else. And that's, that's the beauty of it.

Anna: And that reminds me too, the anthology. Okay, so we got to delve into Chris Joseph for a minute. Chris Joseph is somebody who showed up day one who said, I'm writing a memoir about my unconventional recovery from cancer. I think he had a manuscript, and in three months, he had really no professional writing experience. We, my company published it. And, um, you know, and so first of all, I think that's interesting, because then we have people like Kimberly, who I met in person, like two weeks ago, who say, you know, I feel like you're pushing me a little hard, I really want to, you know, who’s years into the process. So it really is at any pace. And then, so but just side note about Chris, so when we first talked, I said, I think you should be a coach. I think he should coach people through cancer recovery. And he said, I would never do that. That's, I'm not interested in that, you know. Cut to he's now being certified as a coach. And he has started three podcasts. And he's putting together his TEDx talk. And I just, I love that evolution.

Tim: And his book is being passed around like Johns Hopkins, various universities and like, it's, it's really amazing. And Chris is example of a guy that was just driven and I’ll use Barbara Legere as an example too. You know, Barbara’s son just died. Chris, you know, six-and-a-half year recovery from stage four… What kind of cancer was it? It's one of the bad ones.

Anna: The worst kind. The real bad kind, I can’t remember.

Tim: Yes, pancreatic cancer. And so they both were like, I'm driven for this, like, I have so much behind this. I'm so invested in this subject. And no matter how you do it, I mean, I, when I write, I like to get it done in a really driven way, so I relate to that. But I also relate to people that want to take their time and, you know, they want to pick through their work and have it exactly. Because if you don't like your book when it comes out, you're in big trouble. For various reasons.

Anna: Yep. Yep. Been there. It's, it's a terrible feeling to have to promote a book you don't like that you also happen to have written. It really is. So, so what Chris and former member Beth did, is they said we want to do an anthology with members of the Inner Circle. So they put together The Epiphanies Project, and they managed it. And that book came out and, you know, became a number one bestseller. And what I thought was really interesting about that, is so Cory, who’s had all this success, said, that's what really made me a writer, having an essay published in an anthology. So I'm very proud of the fact that that anthology came out of the group and what do you think?

Tim: I think the anthology is great. And I really, besides Cory, I think everyone gained so much confidence seeing their work in print and hearing good things about. There isn't, there isn't a dud in that. And we all question ourselves. Like, I think my contribution to the anthology is the worst piece in there, but that's just what writers do. So it just was a wonderful work. And like, the first time, the first time you're published and you get your hands on it, it's absolutely euphoric. Like, again, like, like, you know you fantasize about being a rock star, and suddenly, you're up in front of like, 3000 people with a microphone. Like, that's the exact feeling.

Anna: Yeah.

Tim: And, you know, it's, it's wonderful. I still remember the first person that published me. Like I was a failed poet in my mind. And, you know, someone published a six-line poem of mine in a, in a journal was kind of like, you know, I think I can do this. And that's exactly how these projects work for so many of us.

Anna: Mm-hmm. And I want to, what you don't know, is that I think I talked Barbara into editing another Anthology for the group.

Tim: Oh nice.

Anna: I know. I know. So you'll find out about that. And, you know, that is something you know, so, so it was Mike, Mike Duffy said, ah, this group has transformed my life. I think it should go global. I think more people need to know about it. And so we started to have those meetings to try to develop that. And I, I don't, I don't know. But I do know, you know, what he talked about is, the, all these studies about there's a friendship deficit, and he's, he’s in society, and he knows all these people who are so successful, but are missing this. Um, you know, I don't know. I don't know what's gonna happen with this group. But if you step back and go three years later with, frankly, not a lot of effort in terms of, no effort in terms of marketing, this thing is still going. It's crazy.

Tim: I agree. And like Mike Duffy, wow. Like, that was, when I heard his thoughts on the group. I was kind of blown away. Like Mike's always impressed me as this really, really intellectual guy. And, you know, he's there, he suits up and shows up and to hear that it was, it's life changing to somebody. And boy, that's just amazing.

Anna: Totally blew my, plus he scares me so much [laughs]. So to me,  I was totally shocked. You know, you don't know what's going on in people's, in people's minds. But, but what else have I failed to ask you or say about the group that you want people to know?

Tim: Oh, God, we've covered so much of it. It's very, very welcoming if you're looking for a group. One for accountability, show up every day, write for an hour. Two, for to get great feedback. Three to get really good friends to have. Improve your skills, have that support have that, that friend community deficit overcome. Like, I think it's like, it's an amazing group. And, you know, we want it to grow. We're very, very welcoming.

Anna: Yeah, and that's, that's another thing I should mention. You don't know. There are a lot of people who pay for that group, and have never shown up or who show up once a month. And I think it's really interesting that the people want, that they, they still, they still do it. And it still is a value to them. Plus, they know, the way that, the way that I try to incentivize people to stay is that it goes up $5 every season. So if you leave and you want to rejoin, you pay up the new price, and I will tell you, Chris Joseph made that mistake of leaving and had to come back and I didn't make an exception. I’m like you're paying at the new price. But in terms of new people, I, I do sometimes worry. Oh my God, new people are going to come in and how are they going to feel welcome? And they always seem to. What is it, how is it that new people who don't know this group of people that are very much embedded in people's lives? Do you think? Why? How is it that they feel so welcome?

Tim: I just think that the quality, the quality of the people and the personalities in there right now is, I mean, you can't ask for anything more. It's just a natural welcoming. We've had a lot of loss in general, we've had a lot of struggles. And it's like, it's just really, really wonderful to welcome people in. Like, come on. Come fly with us. You know, that's really an important aspect of, of any group, you always want to feel welcomed and always has to be, feel sincere. And I think you know, we do that.

Anna: Yeah, yeah. And I will say, the only reason you were not running it before was very sexist. I truly had in my head, it had to be a woman. And I don't know why I had that. But I did. And I'm just so glad that I got over my abhorrent sexism and saw that you were the person for it.

Tim: Oh, well, thanks. I mean, I've always been described as more of a woman than a man in terms of personality. So maybe, you know, there's a little bit of a meeting halfway there. I mean, I'm an [inaudible]. So I'm very, very sensitive. And I think as a facilitator, you have to jump into people's, you can't come across as this authoritarian figure, you have to jump into people's lives. Where they are, what their skill level is, how they're feeling. Like it's all really, really important for the development of new writers.

Anna: Yeah. Well, Tim, you are a delight. If people want to find you at, you know, first of all, they can join the Inner Circle. And now I really can't change the name. Now I can't remember if we said this while I was while we were recording or not. I don’t like the name, did I say this? Because it, it implies exclusivity. And it's the most inclusive community that I know of.

Tim: Yeah, we could call it Word Warriors. What kind of… Word Warriors come out and play. We get the beer bottles, Word Warriors, Word Warriors [laughs].

Anna: So if you're listening to this, you know, look, if it's, if it's Inner Circle, if it's Word Warriors, whatever it is, if, if we're not open for new members at that time, just fill out the application anyway. And, and I will say we let most people in. The application is how committed are you to this? And, and also, I will say, while we have had fiction writers and we have had screenwriters, the majority of people are writing nonfiction.

Tim: Yes, but I think that it's open to everybody. It's open to everyone. Ray’s writing fiction. And they are, fiction’s my forte.

Anna: True Ray’s…

Tim: One of the actual double, Beth's one of the reasons why I joined is I knew I had a memoir in me and I didn't know how to do it. And you know, around people that write memoirs. And now I'm like, I hear people's stories like on the street or, or people I run into. I’d be like, have you thought of your memoir yet and they're not, they're not writers. It's kind of like, I'm so interested and fascinated by people.

Anna: Yeah, so yeah, anyone listening want to join. Don’t know if we’re open for membership when you're hearing this, but um, but I highly consider it. You do not have to feel like, oh my God, I can't show up five days a week. Oh, the other thing I, that happens is people who can't meet at that time, they do offshoot reading write, writing groups. Like I'll, I'll sort of see something in the Facebook group that says, oh, anybody wants to meet this Saturday. So it really is a community that blows my mind.

Tim: Yeah, it is.

Anna: Sorry, if people want to find you, Tim. Where do they, where do they go to find you and find your book?

Tim: Well, since my name is fairly unique and there might be one of us in the country, just remember Gager is G A G E R. Just Google Timothy Gager, you'll find my website. You can contact me through that and you'll get a good, just by Googling me, you'll get a really, really good cross references how to contact me and what I'm up to.

Anna: You’re blowing my mind. My whole time I thought it was gayger. Good to know. Slow learner.

Tim: Oh, no, no, it’s the first five letter last name that no one gets right. Gagger, gayger. Jaeger.

Anna: Yeah, I mean, Tim Gager. Say it all the time. Alright Tim, thank you so much, and thanks you guys for listening.

Tim: Thank you, Anna.

Anna: I'll see you next week. Talk to you next week.

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