Anna David's Blog, page 7

Getting Articles Published & Landing an Agent with Estelle Erasmus

Estelle Erasmus is an award-winning journalist, writing coach, teacher for Writer's Digest and adjunct instructor at New York University. The former editor-in-chief of five national consumer women's magazines, her work has appeared in dozens of media outlets, including The New York Times, The Washington Post, WIRED, Huffington Post Personal, Marie Claire and more.

Now she's written a book that can show you how to do the same! Writing That Gets Noticed: How to Find Your Voice, Become a Better Storyteller, and Get Published will show you all the techniques for getting editors to pay attention to you so that you can spread your writing beyond your book.

In this episode, we dove into some of those techniques (including using your potential article name as the subject line of your pitch email and including your first paragraph of the article in your pitch) and also how to get an agent if you want to pursue the traditional publishing path.

HERE'S HOW I CAN HELP YOU WHEN YOU'RE READY:

→ You can sign up to hear my secrets every week at www.AuthoritySecrets.Club

→ You can grab my Book Launch Blueprint for $20 (it gives you over 29 PDFs that we use for the launches of clients who pay tens of thousands of dollars) 

→ You can apply for a call to work with Legacy Launch Pad (we have packages that range from $3k-150k)

CLICK ON ANY OF THE LINKS BELOW TO HEAR THIS EPISODE OR CLICK HERE TO GET THE POD ON ANY PLATFORM

Make Sure You Write the Right Book with Dave Chesson

 

Dave Chesson is the creator of Kindlepreneur.com, a website devoted to teaching advanced book marketing which even Amazon KDP acknowledges as one of the best by telling users to “Gain insight from Kindlepreneur on how you can optimize marketing for your books.” Having worked with such authors as Orson Scott Card, Ted Dekker and more, his tactics help both fiction and nonfiction authors of all levels get their books discovered by the right readers. 

But that's the official bio stuff. The stuff that really matters, at least to me, is that he is the wisest person out there today when it comes to successful indie publishing. Basically, he does the work so that the rest of us can utilize his techniques and systems.

You can read the full transcript of our conversation below but the main takeaways are this: if you want to successfully launch a book, start your launch work the day you start writing; to cut down on haters, show readers you're human; and the right keywords and categories on Amazon can make the difference between bestsellerdom and obscurity.

Enjoy this episode and by all means, employ the techniques! 

HERE'S HOW I CAN HELP YOU WHEN YOU'RE READY:

→ You can sign up to hear my secrets every week at www.AuthoritySecrets.Club

→ You can grab my Book Launch Blueprint for $20 (it gives you over 29 PDFs that we use for the launches of clients who pay tens of thousands of dollars) 

→ You can apply for a call to work with Legacy Launch Pad (we have packages that range from $3k-150k)

CLICK ON ANY OF THE LINKS BELOW TO HEAR IT!!

DAVE'S TOP 3 TIPS

[TAKEAWAYS FOR A SUCCESSFUL LAUNCH]:

When you go to start writing your book, start building relationships with people who can ultimately support you and your book—influencers, authors and the like. Try to help them out or allow them to get to know you because you've supported them through comments and responding to their posts so that they know who you are by the time you ask for their help.

List the book in 10 categories instead of 2 (refer to Dave's blog post for help on how to do this and using his software, Publisher Rocket, is invaluable here)

because you have one strategy that's in effect for the first couple of days. Like almost like kind of like project management where you've got a schedule. And you're trying to, instead of doing everything on day one, spread it out so that your book continues to have constant sales and not just one giant spike.

INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT:

Anna: Dave Chesson is the founder of Kindlepreneur, the host of the Book Marketing Show podcast and knows more about launching books than anyone I've ever come across. So thank you, thank you.

Dave Chesson:  No problem. I'm really glad to be here.

Anna: So, let's talk about your journey here. Highly unusual journey, I would say, for a writer. You came at publishing—well, let's talk about how you started off, in the Navy, not what anybody would expect necessarily, and how you came to decide to do this and how you came to where you are now.

Dave Chesson:  Well, actually my entire life, I never really thought I would ever be a writer. It's just never been in my code or my DNA. I actually suffer from a form of dyslexia. And so I grew up as being that kid who seemed to, you know, I got A's in every other class, but when it came to English, man, it was like I would be crossing my fingers hoping for like a D+ or a C-. So, I really just thought I was never meant to write. And that kind of progressed throughout life. I mean, I'd always had a desire to write and his, as many of our listeners are probably in the same exact boat where, you know you want to write, you have this book in you. But for me, on the other hand, I just couldn't sit down and write whatever I wanted and just be, you know, loved and followed.

I would try this, I'd be like, “Oh man, here's this motivation, I'm doing this P90X thing. I'm going to write a blog about, you know, the trials and tribulations because I know I'm going to do this right. And so people could benefit from that.” And no, I think only my grandmother listened to it and that was about it. Or Reddit. And I was like, ah man, come on. So, my thing was is that I was, I was in the military and you know, throughout the years I had tried a little bit of blogging and writing and never found any traction whatsoever. But the military just sent me to Korea without my family. And so, you know, I had to go and spend two years without my wife and kids, and my wife had this really good question. She was like, “What are you doing all this for?” I was like, “A paycheck?” She's like, “No, I mean like why are we making all these sacrifices?” And I said, yeah, that's a good question. I mean, I didn't have a desire to be an Admiral in the Navy. I didn't, you know, I was just going to go through 20 years and maybe collect a retirement paycheck or something like that and then look back at it and just realize, wow, that was, you know, a lot of lost time with my kids and you know, nothing really to show for it. And that's when we started to talk about an exit strategy. You know, something that would allow me to get out of the military but not go from one nine-to-five traveling job to another nine-to-five traveling job.

And that's when I really started to discover a bit more about writing and kind of learning about, you know, the market. A great example that I tell people is say you go to this party, okay. And you know, nobody at this party it's just you, but you find out that everyone in this party really wants to know or talk about a certain TV show and you just happen to have done your research and you know all about the TV show and you can talk about it. It doesn't matter who you were, doesn't matter how great your oratory skills are. If you can converse in an intelligent manner on that TV show, everybody will want to listen to what you have to say. So when I started to apply that to my writing, this dyslexic, challenged, not so interesting person could all of a sudden be a center. And that's when my writing really started to take off.

Anna: Now you have how many books out there?

Dave Chesson: I have nine.

Anna:  And how many names do you have that your books are under?

Dave Chesson:  Nine? Yeah, it was when I first started writing, I was still in the military. I was actually doing military diplomacy and I didn't want to have to deal with the whole, you know, putting all the blurbs all over the book saying these are the opinions of Dave Chesson and do not reflect the United States Government in any way, shape or form. And to tell you the truth, especially with the positions that I ended with, it was a very good move. It would have been very problematic. And sometimes authors out there, you know, you don't want to mix your personal life with your professional life and vice versa. And sometimes you want to write about things that you don't really want, you know, being connected with. And you know, there's a whole genre out there that I'm sure all the listeners know what I'm referring to and no, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't write in that, that wasn't it.

But the thing was that there's a really good aspect for that. But when I got out of the military, I kind of kept this, I decided to keep writing under different pen names because every time I come out with a new book, I don't get to rely on the fame that I built from Kindlepreneur. Or the growing following that my other pen name got. I have to start in the trenches as a no-name author with no platform, no giant social media following, no email, nothing. I have to start from the beginning. And this has caused me to have to really hone my skills and make sure that, you know, I'm at square one like everybody else just beginning. And it forces me to also stay up to date. I can't just send out an email blast and enjoy, you know, hundreds of sales and send out another email blast and easily get 50 or 60 reviews just like that. I have to work and figure out how to do it without those things.

Anna:  See, this is so interesting to me because as somebody who devours every word you write and every podcast you release, we would all buy your books, even though they're under date, even though they're not my topic, I would do it to support you. Why would you make your life so hard?

Dave Chesson:  Because that's the thing is, is that when you look at it like a lot of other websites from, from providers, a major majority of their sales come from that following. And that is cool. And by the way, every author should work towards that. Okay? Because when you build your platform, you build your email list and that next book gets so much easier. And like you said Anna, for me, people have experienced what I've done right. And that they know that if I'm going to put something out there, it's going to be good. It's kinda like, you know, when you go to the store and you're looking at a whole row of books, right? Notice that the more famous an author is, the bigger the name gets, right? And right now, Stephen King's name is way bigger than the title of the book. I almost have to squint to figure out which book it is. I just, cause it's Stephen King, right? Well that's because when I see the word Stephen King, I automatically know it's probably a great book since he's never let me down. I know what kind of genre is, unless he's going off on his Green Mile or his Shawshank Redemption, you know, but I mean really it is what it is, right? I know what I'm going to get.

I don't really need to pay as much stock into the cover image or the title or anything like that. I just know what I'm getting. Same thing with, when you have a following, they just know what they're getting. So I would say to listeners is 100% work towards that. But for me, my biggest thing is, is that I've been working with big time publishing companies, really famous authors, and yes they have those tactics, but what's really made me unique is coming in and saying, that's cool, you guys have been doing that good, but here's a much better way of doing it in the digital age, you know, and here's something that you guys haven't even thought of. So in a way it's kinda like you know, helping me to sharpen my skills and helping me to stay on the cutting edge of what's new in Amazon. You know, immediately a new feature comes out—great. I need to figure it out because I need that.

Anna: So let's say that, I mean that is so inspiring to anyone listening cause I work with so many authors and they say, well, I don't have 10,000 Instagram followers. I don't have a list. I don't even know what you mean when you say list. So what would you say an author who doesn't have those things, how should they do a launch and how early should that work? Start before the book comes out.

Dave Chesson:  Well, the funniest, I love that last part of your question because this is usually where I start with is that when it comes to your launch, okay? When it comes to marketing in general, the day you decide to put finger to keyboard and hit that first letter is the date you need to start marketing. Okay? Marketing is not this point where it's like, I'm going to sit down and I’m going to write my book, I'm going to be in my own, you know, cave here with no understanding what's going on. I'm just going to write and then when I'm done, I'm going to go and start this marketing thing. No, that's how, that's why most launches fail. Because the author does that. Instead, what I think is this isn't about trying to sell a book that you haven't written yet. This is about understanding your market. Okay? When you start writing a book, you need to start understanding who your target market is.

And yes, I get it, maybe you are your own target market, but seriously, get into the heads of others. Understand what they're doing. Start building relationships with other people. You know, either your target market or other authors in the area. Don't just come up to them and say, the first thing you say to this person is, “Hey, you're a really great author! Hey, would you mind promoting my book?” Like, that never happens! That only happens when you have built a relationship with that person over time and continue to have given to them. Be there, give them reviews, be a positive influence, reply to their emails with just positive statements. That's how you get stuck in, in their head. And all of a sudden when the time comes and you're like, “I've learned so much from you. By the way, I just wrote my first book. Hey, by the way, finally, after all these times, I've hooked you up,” without saying that last part, but in your mind, you know, “would you do this thing?” And you know what? That person will. But that started the day you started to write your book, not the day you went to launch. So again, there are a lot of things that come in prior to the launch. And I think one thing I think would be really beneficial for this episode is looking at the things you can do before the launch. So, one thing we talked about already is: Get to know your target market. Find them. Are they on forums? Is there a special Facebook you know, a Facebook page or a Facebook group? Groups are better. Become a voice that talks not about your book, but about helping and asking questions, setting surveys, dropping funny memes, you know, that they would resonate with.

That's, again, a lot of this is non-fiction. For the fiction people, just getting inside the heads of, of, you know, the, the other authors or the crazy readers. Because let me tell you, they will tell you what things they hate to show up in a book. But the point is, is that you're already there and you're already listening and you're communicating. You're building a relationship, okay? So, find them. Next, is specifically find the other authors in your area and get to know them. The other authors, okay, they're not competitors—never make that mistake. They are not competitors. They are your friends! Because here's the thing, nobody can write a book, a brand-new book, every month. So they're always looking for things and they want to get to know the area as well. So get to know them. Some of the favorite strategies I've kind of already said. Get on their email list. Hit reply to every email they send you. Because let me tell you, when they start to see this, one person's legitimately saying, “Hey, great this, I like that, that's awesome,” et cetera, your name just sticks in their head.

Same thing with social media. Start tweeting with them. Start, you know, responding. Just engage with them so when the time comes, they know who you are without you having to introduce yourself. Another thing that you can start to do too is you can start to look, do some market research. You know, for example, you can to Amazon and start understanding what it is your target market types into Amazon when they're looking for your book. You can do this on the Amazon queue, or excuse me, the Amazon search box at the top. When you start to type something in there, Amazon tries to auto-populate it with what other people have typed. This can kind of help you to understand the words your market uses when searching for your kind of book.

A great example where this research can help you write a much better book is, I was working with an author who had a book about how to sell art. However, though, when we did that keyword research, like looking into what people typed, more people were typing in the phrase “how to sell art online” than those who were typing in “how to sell art.” And this, this gal was even covering the online component of it and she realized, “oh my gosh, the market wants to know this more than just the more broad subject!”

So she immediately added an entire half, an extra half of her book, to just the online sales component alone. Now imagine if she had just written the, the how to sell art, okay? Got it on Amazon, got it in front of all those people who really cared about art and didn't even cover the one thing. She probably would've gotten some scathing reviews because people were let down in what they were thinking. The author was in a completely different mind frame than the market. So that really helped her, and I think that saved a lot of her sales as well as her reviews.

And then finally too, you know, she also knew what really triggered her market more, so she even created an email opt-in that was specific to how to set up the best account on the three top online art sales platforms. And her email conversion was through the roof. And so, when she got into the mind, she made a better book, she was able to connect more with her market. So again, I would say that doing keyword research before you write your book and help you to understand what areas you should cover. Maybe perhaps some of the, you know, the way that you can maneuver your book to really fit an existing market—that's another way. But yeah, I think a lot of it really comes down to once you start those three things, I think you'll start to understand and see more opportunities on where you can get involved in your area. Every subject, whether you're fiction, non-fiction, or specific nonfiction, they all have different things to them. Some might be really Pinterest-heavy, some might be this, but if you start those things we just discussed, you'll start to learn even more, and you'll be able to grow out so that you'll have more of an influence upon launch.

Anna:  Oh my God, that was so good and so much to unpack that. I'm going to my brain, I'm memorizing what I have to ask you and I'm going to work backwards. Now, about the, the lead magnet that she created. How many CTAs would you recommend putting in a book? And what I mean by that, for anyone who has no idea what I'm talking about, is it sounds like this woman created something she knew the audience of this book would like, and she wanted to get them on her list, so she put opportunities within the book to do that. And anyone who doesn't know, this is such an advantage of publishing yourself, because traditional publishing will not allow you to do that. So, how many times would you recommend?

Dave Chesson:  Yeah, that's a really good question. In non-fiction, honestly, the best types are the ones that are in inner dispersed throughout the book. You know, for example, a lot of people when they do non-fiction, they might put at the end of the book and I'm like, well, congratulations, you're only reaching the small percentage that actually made it to the end of your book. The next step up is that you not only put it in the end of your book, but you also put it at the beginning of your book. And because that way people see it immediately. They know that there's other stuff that they can get with the book. The best sales tactic is to say that, you know, free upgrade, you know? Or make it feel like you're not only just getting this book, you're getting these other things with the book that are like either training material or aids, study aids, and stuff like that.

And then you're adding value to their life, which whether or not they actually sign up for it, at least you're planting the little seed in their mind that this book is more valuable than the others that don't. But another thing where I see people really do this well is where they have basically a giant collection of things that you can get with the book. And so for example, they may get inside a chapter and they're talking about this case study and they may have a call to action that says, “Would you like another case study on the subject matter? Sign up here to get it.” You know, if they're talking about some kind of a video, you know, “Be sure to sign up here to watch that video.” So they just kinda inter-disperse them.

Now, I would say that as a non-fiction author, you should only consider doing that many opportunities, okay, throughout the book, if you have a much higher thing to sell them, okay? So for example, I think it was, I can't remember the name of the book. Ah, it's escaped me, but there was one—oh, it was Ask by Ryan Levesque, right? Well Ryan’s got like a premium course, he's got a service, he's got affiliate, he's got all these things. So, he basically turned his very popular book into a giant email opportunity and you can't get through at least a chapter without hitting maybe one or two opportunities. And I'll say personally he does it a little bit too much to the point that I started getting a bit annoyed. But yeah, he, he ended up getting my email probably on the seventh chapter after a while. I mean it worked! Did he get a sale from me? No—not saying it's not worth it, because I know a lot of people that did it, they enjoyed it. But he's really pushing because the book isn't his thing. What his thing is, is this much higher-cost program, or what have you. When I worked with Pat Flynn, he had the book Will it Fly?

Anna: Yup—he got me through that book! Because he had that course that you probably advised him to do.

Dave Chesson:  Yup, that was it! I'm telling you. So, what Pat did was he had this book that was Will it Fly, which teaches people, like, how to verify their business idea, right? How to validate it, will your business idea fly? And so ultimately, he then created this mini-course that is kind of like the video version of the book and it was like a study aid. So, you know, it's not like without the course, you can't finish the book—that might piss people off. But it's like more or less, like, this will help you with the book as you go. And he made it absolutely free. The other thing was, is that because it was a free course, he put at the front of the book. So, a lot of people could click on the “look inside” and sign up without even buying the book. That comes down to you and your choice.

However, though, what he basically said was one third of every person who bought the book signed up for the free course. And he had a huge email list built from this. Then he created a paid course, like, you know, the next step up. And he just—and this came from him publicly, so I'm allowed to share this—but he said that the day he launched that paid course, he made over $111,000 just to the email list that he built from that. From the book. That's it. Not his huge email list, just the people who had bought and taken the mini-course and then just on the weekend brought in six figures. So, there is definitely a strategy behind that.

Anna: And you know, you did mention if you don't have a product or whatever, it may not make sense, but what if you will one day? Why not gather these emails? Anybody who's listening?

Dave Chesson:  100 percent absolutely agree. The more emails you have, the easier the job gets. Actually, let me paint another story too. So obviously when you have more and more email, you have more and more clientele that you can proactively reach out to and get them to buy. Cool. Here's another thing too, though. If anybody out there listening has these aspirations of one day being a published author, right? Going through a publisher, I can do a whole podcast on the pros and cons on that, but one of the things that I've seen sitting in so many of these meetings and boards and discussions with the publishing companies is that really what they want to know is, are you going to make them more money? I mean, really, everything just kinda distills down to that. They may sign you, okay? But if they're not really sure, if maybe you're, you know, it's like, “It's a good book, but…we don't really know.”

You're not going to get any backing or help from them whatsoever. You're definitely not going to get money up front. You're not going to get anything. Basically what you're going to do is get a deal, they may help you put together some stuff—minimally, right, minimizing their costs—and then they're going to turn around and tell you, “Hey, you got 20,000 books to sell in the next three months.” And if you don't hit that mark, you'll never hear from them again. You also like, and yet they still control your book—that's where problems come. But here's the other thing, if you walk in and you have some reason for them to believe that they're going to get their money, or that this could really, that they're going to benefit from you? Oh yeah. You get, you get a bit of the red-carpet treatment, okay?

Because they know and the number one way to get on their radar is how much of an email list do you have? It sounds so ridiculous, but a buddy of mine, and I don't have permission to use his name since there's some personal information to this, so I'll talk around his name, but he had, I think it's over 200,000 email subscribers. And it's because he wrote a whole bunch of articles on Medium, became very popular in that respect, he definitely did some viral ones, and his email list was huge. He decided to write a book and here's the thing. They did not really care, even though he had been viral and some of those people on the board had read his viral posts—cool. That doesn't translate to book sales. Until they saw his email list size. To them, that number represented cha-ching, cha-ching, you know? Some dollar signs. Right. And three out of the five major publishing companies went into a bidding war and he got pre-paid up front $200,000 on his first book and he hadn't even written it yet.

Anna:  I think I know who this is.

Dave Chesson:  You might, you might.

Anna:  Does his first name start with B? That's all I'm asking.

Dave Chesson:  No.

Anna:  Okay, okay. This exact same thing happened to someone else I know, go on.

Dave Chesson:  Yeah, well, but that's the thing was, if he hadn't been collecting those emails, they would never have given him a chance. They might’ve signed him to something, but it would have been one of those previous stories I talked about. Instead though, they gave him the $200,000 upfront, he sat down to write his first book ever, they gave him all the best editors, the best, you know, the best time, because they needed to get their money back, right? Since they gave him money upfront, they want to get it back. They worked with him, they had their own marketing plan, they actually helped him lay out a plan, they did all these things. And yeah, they got their money back, for sure. And he still makes money after, after the fact. But the fact is that it was a much different experience only because of an email list. So anybody who's like, “Well, you know, I don't have a product or whatever.” Yeah, that's cool. Not only will that email list help you with the next book, but it helps you over time. And who knows, maybe you come up with a product or maybe on your email list, somebody tells you have a product you should make that make their life easier and then you get your product idea.

Anna:  So speaking of email lists in the very first thing you said in this, in this thing I'm unpacking, we got to know each other because I was a faithful subscriber, still am. And I saw you made a mistake—I know you never make mistakes, you made one.

Dave Chesson:  I make lots of writing mistakes (laughter).

Anna:  And it was like a mistake in the email, I don't remember, it's like a tech glitch—and I wrote you never thinking you would actually see it. And I was like, “Oh, by the way, there's this error, whatever, and I just love everything you do.” And you wrote me back! And you were so kind, and then you asked me to be on your podcast. So what an example of—I wasn't trying to get in with you. I just was a fan and saw a, you know, a mistake. And I have gotten to know people like that myself.

Dave Chesson:  And we can go even further with that. It wasn’t just that one time. It's not like you fell off the face of the earth after we had that conversation, either. You've been a constant person that I've seen, whether it was through Twitter or you know, replying or even commenting on my own articles, like, yeah. Constantly seeing that you truly are there. And then so when you, when you asked me to be on this one, I'm not, I'm not gonna lie—like, I have actually told about 90% of the people no, because of this time period, right? As we're recording, this is in November coming up on Thanksgiving soon. And usually I shut down all operations because I really want to be family-focused, so I say no. But when you asked me, I was like, “Yeah, I'll do that!”

But it was because of all of that time that you were always there. You didn't just do a single-serving friend. You were like, you were always—and so of course I'm going to do this. So again, like, yeah, this it in action, right there. And you'd be surprised, like you send an email, maybe it's your favorite author, like Orson Scott Card or something like that, you know, and you think he probably doesn't see these. Well, I'll tell you, he probably does. And so, don't think to yourself that person is too big, or whatever. If you're constantly there and constantly positive, they're going to care. And if they don't care, well then, they're not the kind of person you want to align yourself with anyways.

Anna: They're a-holes. By the way, listeners, same goes for reviews. So, when you write those mean things and you think it's not a real person that's going to see that, you're wrong.

Dave Chesson:  Oh yeah, I've got a strategy for that. I actually—

Anna: Kill them with kindness, right?

Dave Chesson:  Well, no, no, no. I don't respond to the negative reviews like that. That never works out for anybody. Unless there's a gross mistake on their part and you're kindly letting them know that you know, like for say for example, like, “I can't believe you kill this character in the first chapter!” Then you kindly let them know, “I really wish you had gotten to the fifth chapter…wink, wink, wink.” You know? Like, that's cool, but not when the person is emotional. That never works. No. But here's what, here's a strategy I love to put at the end of my book. When it comes time that you finished the book, I actually kind of continue like it's a chapter, okay? Because—and the last chapter is kind of like my struggle. My author’s struggle. All right, now—this sounds so sales market-y, since we're talking about it—here it is. I humanize myself.

I will write about what brought me to point to write this book. You know, and the fears that come from it. You know, and I'm not gonna lie, I'll even put a picture, a candid picture, not a professional picture, of me and my family. Just reminding them that the words they just wrote came from a human being. So, I'll tell a bit of my journey in the struggle and you know what I had to go through to get this thing created for them. And then what I will do is I'll also remind them how important book reviews are. And that's because readers, we authors understand it, but readers don't, not all the time. And they forget. And so I'll let them know how important that review is for me. And I let them know that I will be there to read each and every one of them.

And when you do that, if the person's gotten to this point where they're actually reading this last part, it means they've enjoyed, to some extent, your work. And now, when you come in and you bring this forward to them, you basically make it feel like they're letting you down if they don't take that simple action and leave a review. And I tell you, when I added this to like one of my original, like—I did this strategy like two or three books later, but I went back to my first ever book and put it in there—and I swear the frequency of five star reviews tripled. Readers getting to the point of it and realizing holy moly, I really should. And I think that it just makes a much better experience as well. So I would want 100 percent recommend to anybody writing, add that section to the end and really give it a thing because that will really help you get more reviews and better reviews.

And I say better because, you know, we've all been at the point where we're like talking about somebody behind their back and then, and then when they come and they show up, we're like, “Oh no—hey man, what's happening? Cool.” Right? And we just change our tone. Well guess what? That dude or dudette just poured their heart out to you and they're going to go read your statement. That person might think twice about something that’s negative. Now they're not going to change a one star to five star, but it may be a three-star instead of a one-star. See what I’m saying?

Anna: Yeah, that's brilliant. Speaking of reviews too, where do you stand on advanced reader teams?

Dave Chesson:  ARCs? Yeah. So Advanced Reader Copies and then Advanced Reader Team. In the industry they'll call them ARCs. If anybody's never come across that. I like ARCs, I think it's absolutely wonderful to build—and again, that reader team we're talking about that comes from building them up from the beginning, right? That's the people you met on the forum, that's the people you've been talking to on Facebook, that's the other authors in the industry, you know, who will then become a part of your team and then you'll probably do the same thing for them.

So again, those teams are only developed if you follow those strategies we talked about. And that's at the beginning. Those are incredibly important to give yourself a really big launch. And that's because you send out the book in advance, okay, so you have to trust them to an extent. You can use something like Bookfunnel to help control the allocation of books out there so that it doesn't, like, get pirated or something.

But you, you send the book out in advance to people, giving them an opportunity to read and then when the time comes that you launch it, you now have a known amount of people who have actually read your book, who can drop a review on the day of launch. Nothing looks worse than a book that just launched today and has zero reviews. Like even your friends and family problem won’t trust to buy it if it doesn't have reviews.

Here's a couple of tactics that I like to use with the ART team. Okay. I don't think we have enough time for me to go into the strategies to develop them, but when you do have them, one of the things I highly, highly recommend is that you create a kind of like Excel sheet where you have all of your ART team members listed and you basically mark when you last communicated with them.

Because what ends up happening is people will build this ART team and then they just treat it like one mass email. Man, if you're mass emailing me, is this really that important to you? No. But if you're personally emailing me? I feel on the hook. Now if I said I was going to be in your ART team, it means I have the intention of doing this. So just because you're being a little bit pushy about it, it isn't that you're being wrong. This person said they would, and you gave them your book for free. It's just, you're helping them to remember—that's it. So, personally talk to them, not mass email.

Second, I also like to remind them too that you didn't have to have read it. Like some people would be like, “Oh, I need to read every book.” No, no, no, no. So far, however far you are, just leave a review now and remember, you can always go back and change it.

So if that person comes back and says, “I'm not gonna lie, I got too busy, I can’t read it.” Okay, I tell you what, you know me in the industry, you know me because we talked on Facebook, you know, you know that I know the subject matter. Perhaps you can write a review on the book that is specific to me instead of the book itself. That way you're not lying. You're letting people know about the hard work I've done to get this information. You'll find that like, I honestly think that 50 percent of the reason why our team members will not leave a review is because they didn't finish the book and they think they have to in order to do it.

So, communicate that with them and let them know. And then it'd be like, “Oh cool.” Because if in the back of their mind they're like, “Man, I don't want to read this book right now, I’m busy, life is busy.” What you basically are letting them know is, “Hey, drop that review about me. And we're cool.” You go on with your busy self, you know? Like, things change, I get it, three months ago, you said you could, right now you're like, “heck no,” just two minutes and we're done. And then you don't have to feel guilty for like letting me down. That is huge. And then follow through on all of them.

A lot of people will build this ARC team, say it's like 50 people, and they'd do a mass email blast and only get five or 10 reviews and get pissy. No. Guess what? You got 50 people, talk to the 50 people individually, explain it to them and you will start to see 40, 45 reviews instead of the, you know, the five or 10 that you would get.

Anna: So good. So good. And, and okay, finally, because I know, you know, we're pressed for time. I could talk to you forever, but like, okay, one thing that you mentioned was people searching on Amazon. What you didn't mention is that you have created a product that allows people to do that, an extremely affordable product, that allows people to search categories and keywords and not just see how popular they are, but how much those authors are making. The ones who are leaders in those categories and those keywords. Can you, can you speak a little bit about that? Is there a, like, okay, if the author is making over like, whatever, over a certain amount, that's bad! Because you'll never compete. But if—you know what I mean, those numbers?

Dave Chesson:  So, when I was in Korea and I came up with my first book idea, I use a whole bunch of Excel. I used to be a nuclear engineer, so I'm pretty numbers intensive. Total nerd, I mean, what can I say? I really would, I'd have this huge system because I didn't want to have to write an entire book, and pay for a really good cover, and editor, and formatting, and then marketing efforts, only find out nobody gives a rip. You know, nobody cares. I didn't even make it so—oh, by the way, I had to totally get over my, my hang up on my own inability.

So I developed this entire system for me to kind of understand what's going on in Amazon and then to make better calls. And that was when I later on in life, I actually met a whole bunch of programmers. I was like, “Hey guys, would you mind taking all of this and just packaging it into this? So it's like super intuitive?” And we had what I called the Muzzy factor. My grandmother, her name's Muzzy—well, I call her Muzzy, she's my Muzzy—and she was our, our “Muzzy tested, Muzzy approved.”

And the idea was, is that she keeps playing with it until you know, she actually understands it. So it was, that was the hardest part. So anyways, we so we designed the software and really it, that's exactly it. It tells you what it is that people type into Amazon, how many people per month type it into Amazon, how much money authors are making that show up for that keyword phrase.

It also helps you to find the best category for your book, and by the way, there are 14,000 different categories on Amazon. And the only way that—there's no list, there's no magical list anywhere, you just have to basically click, click, click and search and search and search and hope you had end up finding all 14,000 of them or something to figure out which one's the best one for you. So, we did the hard work and we listed all 14,000 of them out there. And these are actually different than the categories when you go to publish—that's a whole ‘nother subject. But when you go to publish your book, Amazon offers you this list and it's not Amazon categories, it's actually called bisects. So a, the real categories of or aren't, aren't even offered. And there's a way to get put in for them.

So there's a lot of really cool advantages to kind of understanding what's going on in Amazon, what's going on in the market. And we basically just bottled it up inside a software and that software is called Publisher Rocket. And we've made it only $97, and that's for life. So it's not a subscription fee or anything like that, pay for it once and you get to use it, and you get all the updates and new features that we constantly add, because I'm an author myself. And so, I'm always like, “Alright, how can we make this easier? What would be better?” And yeah, I got a programming team, so we just keep adding to it.

Anna: And so, if the categories are different in Publisher Rocket than they are on Amazon, how do you transfer that?

Dave Chesson:  No problem. So yeah, so say for example, just to kind of quickly explain that is when you go to publish in KDP, Kindle Direct Publishing, Amazon asks, you know, to list which categories you think your book is a part, you click and you'll see this giant, huge dropdown box that you select. Those are actually like international standard categories. Like, like it's the universally accepted categories that all marketplaces, except it's not really categories for a store, but think of it more like a supply chain logistics thing.

So when publishers get a book, they'll choose two bisects. And then when Barnes and Noble gets the book, they translate that bisect into a category that they have, because they may not have that bisect. And so—or the ma and pa shop only has 28 categories cause they only have 28 rows, right?

Well, there's 5,000 bisects. So obviously they figured out this, this 472 is a part of this category, right? That's, that's the whole system. So, when you go to publish, Amazon offers you the bisects, and then from there they magically put you into something, and it might not even be what you thought it was. So luckily, there is a process where and if you just go to YouTube and you type in like add 10 categories or change your categories, my video should show up number one. And you can watch the process, there's a special link that you click, and then it takes you to the special page on Amazon where you fill out this form, and literally it's like Dropbox, I show you over my shoulder how you do it.

And then you copy and paste what we call a category string, which is what Rocket shows you, into the form and say add my book for this. And within 24 hours, done. Or if you're in the United States, you can actually get Amazon to call you. Like I'm talking like less than a minute later, somebody calls you and you just tell them over the phone, “Hey man, my book is such and such. The ASN number is this and I want you to add it to this category string, this category string, this category string, this category string.” And within minutes of hanging out with them, your book has been included.

Anna: I've done it. I've done it for all my clients, it's amazing. They're real nice about it too, happy to do it! Okay, so to wrap up, your top tips for somebody doing a launch. Would you say start preparing the minute you start typing, and get your groups, both of influencers, for lack of a better word, and colleagues, use Publisher Rocket, you didn't say it, I did. So to wrap up, can we just wrap up with your, you know, summary of the tips?

Dave Chesson:  Yeah. Well let's, there's two major things I'd like people to walk away with. The number one is like you said, when you go to start writing your book, start building those relationships. Start getting to know your market. That will pay off in the long run and make things so much easier and so much better. So do that. All right? Then number two is that when you get closer, make sure you have a plan. And I'm sure that through the other people you're going to interview here, you're going to hear a lot of great tactics. And there are a lot out there.

You choose the tactics you want, but have it planned out. Like almost like kind of like project management where you've got a schedule. And you're trying to, instead of doing everything on day one, spread it out so that your book continues to have constant sales and not just one giant spike. I would say that those two things, right there are the two big picture, most important things an author can do to really have a successful launch.

Anna: Okay. And let's just say release week—your actual launch. What are the top few things somebody could do?

Dave Chesson:  Well, like I said before, it's about spreading out your, your objectives, right? So, if you have somehow collected—if I'm working with an author has 10,000 different emails, like emails, right? I actually will break up the email list into different cohorts. Instead of just one giant blast, I will maybe email one fourth of them on the first week or the first couple of days, the other fourth.

And so that way it's not just one giant spike. And then, well that tactics done, I guess. Instead, I'm benefiting from using my email list. And I'll also, two on my email list, I will reply or I will send another email to those who didn't open up the first one. Just in case, either it went to spam or they weren't interested in my subject header. And so that way I have a rolling effect of email over time. That's one thing.

Amazon Ads we didn't talk about, I think that one's a phenomenal one that should be a part of anybody's strategy. Because that helps your book for sure to get in front of people, that helps you to get sales and keep relevancy score up. But like, you know, if you, if you're building your tactics, maybe Facebook page has been a huge thing for you. Maybe not announce to your Facebook page or to your, to your friends in the Facebook page about your book until after a couple of days—because you have one strategy that's in effect for the first couple of days. Then maybe you use this strategy on the third day.

You can see where I'm going is that there will be a lot of strategies. Everybody's going to hear a part of a launch and that's cool. And there are so many. You choose what want to do, but you plan them out so they're spread out a bit, not all in one day.

Anna:  So good. So good. Thank you, Dave, so much. Oh, by the way, do you still have that free course on Amazon Ads available?

Dave Chesson:  I do actually.

Anna: Where can people grab that?

Dave Chesson:  It’s amscourse.com. Made it as simple as one can remember in this case they're driving. Yeah, it's a full free video course showing everything I know. Matter of fact, before I go to work at a publishing company or doing any consulting, I send them the course and be like, “First, take that.” So that way I don't have to spend the first couple of hours while I'm on the clock explaining these things to you. So, I don't hold back on it.

Anna: And it's free?

Dave Chesson:  100 percent.

Anna: Well, Dave, thank you again and if people want to find you, kindlepreneur.com is that the best place?

Dave Chesson:  That's the best one!

Anna:  Thank you, thank you, and thank you for listening. You rock.

Dave Chesson:  Take care and thank you for having me.

 

The Scribe Publishing Scandal: What Happens When the Leader in Your Field Goes Down in Flames

This special episode is a solo chat about the implosion of Scribe Media. While it doesn't contain tips about how to launch a book that transforms your career, it's a deep dive into what NOT to do when building a business from your book. Everything in here is, like all episodes, just my opinion but I've been in a unique position where I've been receiving constant updates and information from people who have the inside scoop on the Scribe shitshow.

PROMISED LINKS: 

Petition by fired workers

Reddit thread on the drama

Javon McCormick LinkedIn announcement

Meghan McCracken LinkedIn announcement

The Scribe Media Files podcast

HERE'S HOW I CAN HELP YOU WHEN YOU'RE READY:

→ You can sign up to hear my secrets every week at www.AuthoritySecrets.Club

→ You can grab my Book Launch Blueprint for $20 (it gives you over 29 PDFs that we use for the launches of clients who pay tens of thousands of dollars) 

→ You can apply for a call to work with Legacy Launch Pad (we have packages that range from $3k-150k)

TRANSCRIPT

If this is new to you, the short story is that there was a hybrid publishing company called Scribe that has been in chaos. And I have very intentionally not chimed in on the chaos because I have watched other hybrid indie custom publishers descend like hawks and start running ads that say “We're the alternative to Scribe” and writing posts that say “If you were left by Scribe in the lurch than we're here to save you.” If you're not familiar with what I'm talking about, about a month ago—this is being recorded on June 25 2023—Scribe fired without warning, roughly 70% of their staff. They had 130 employees and they basically just fired them without any warning and without any severance.

Until recently, its CEO was someone named Javon McCormick and right under him was someone named Meghan McCracken. There was an episode of a podcast by somebody named Sam Lacrosse called the Scribe Media Files, where he was basically called the Zoom meeting, this town hall that had Scribe clients and employees and all of these people who could talk about what had happened. 

And there was very negative feedback about Meghan, but she was sort of left in charge. And then, roughly a week ago, she resigned. And while she was a little bit opaque in what she said about leaving, the quote she wrote on LinkedIn is “If anyone takes advantage of the best things within you, your compassion, your desire to be a part of something bigger, your huge heart, your desire to help that is not for you to be ashamed of.” 

That’s seemingly passing the blame to Javon McCormack, but none of this this was clear. And so everybody is kind of passing the baton. And meanwhile, Scribe employees are left without any warning, without any paycheck, without any severance. So what a petition was very quickly started up and change.org with the goal of 500 signatures, which has as of this recording 495 signatures, It's asking for severance packages, a $1000 therapy stipend for each affected individual and for people to be granted ownership and unrestricted access to their hardware.

It sounds like employees were cut off from the books they were working on. And they were told they could not speak to their clients which in Scribe terminology, their clients are called “authors.” In the Scribe files audio that I heard, there was a former Scribe employee who talked about how she was working on six different books at once and how she was told she couldn't be in touch with those clients, leaving them in the lurch.

Meanwhile, the people who were left at Scribe were reaching out to these clients, and saying, “Oh, there's nothing to worry about, don't worry about the headlines. We've got this all under control.” This made of course, no sense because they really had no staff anymore. And so it's just been a shitshow. 

Now I’m somebody who started a company because I admired what Scribe was doing so much…well, I admired about 75% of what they were doing. I've just been watching, astounded, and learning so much, basically, about what not to do.

What’s happened since all of this is that a company called Enduring Ventures announced a few days ago that they were buying it. And they announced on the Scribe LinkedIn page; there was something from the founder of Enduring Ventures, which said that they were coming in and saving the day.

And that’s crucial because there were hundreds of books that were clients had paid in advance. And you know, if you tallied up with what Scribe charges and the numbers, it was millions upon millions of dollars.

And everybody has sort of said different things—that basically it was everything from it was a Ponzi scheme to it just really mismanaged. The history of Scribe is that it was started by I Hope They Serve Beer in Hell author Tucker Max, and his partner Zach. And they started this company, and it became successful. 

And then a few years ago—this was also very opaque—they left but it was never clear. Apparently, they were selling it to Javon McCormack that wasn't stated explicitly. But they “left.” However, Tucker Max has run many workshops there. I personally know people who he has signed to be clients in the last couple of years, people where he said, “I'm going to be working personally on your book.” But when all of this stuff came up with Scribe, somebody asked him on Twitter, “What's your feeling about this?” And he said, “I haven't been involved with the company in years.”

So there are very much conflicting reports about that and I did hear from somebody that he was on a very generous retainer fee. So Enduring Ventures announced that they were coming in. And what was interesting is that, the founder said on LinkedIn, “If you need to direct your anger at someone, direct it at me. I didn't cause the issues, but perhaps I can solve them with enough time.”

Which, if you're watching the way that I sort of have been watching with who is actually going to take responsibility for this, it's not JT McCormick. It's not Meghan McCracken. Okay, so it's this guy who's going in and say, I'm taking responsibility, but it wasn't my fault. I feel like maybe it's living in Hollywood. And having worked at People Magazine and US Weekly, I have learned that we will forgive anything, if somebody takes responsibility. I know that from my personal life too. And I think the reason that it just kind of gets worse and worse and worse is that people are saying they're taking responsibility, but then they're sort of also saying at the same time that it's not their fault.

So when I say I really admired about 75% of what Scribe was doing, I often stood back and marveled at the fact that they were very proud of the fact that they had released 1000s of books, because I know what it takes to release a high quality book. And it takes love and determination and time and energy and just something that I don't believe could really be replicated 1000s of times. We work with a fraction of the people who reach out to us and we really won't take anybody that we don't believe can earn back 10 to 100 times their investment. We release fewer than 15 books or 20 books a year and each one is very much a labor of love. So I would stand there and I would look at what they were doing. And I just assumed because the publicity around it was so good that they had figured out a way to produce really high quality in mass volume.

And yet, many of our clients are people who have either worked with Scribe in the past or had spoken to them and had decided to work with us. I always explained we are very, very different; we're almost the exact opposite. And the people who decided to do their second books with us talked a lot about how the Scribe books were not what they wanted, they weren't happy with the results, they had to rewrite the entire thing. And, and while I know that, that you're never going to have a 100% happiness success rate, there are some clients that are never going to be happy no matter what you do. What I thought was interesting is Meghan McCracken would put these videos—I was on their newsletter list—and she'd send out videos every week and one of the videos said, “100% of our clients have been thrilled with their experience,” which just stood out to me not just because I don't think there's any company in the world that can say that, but also because I had so much information that refuted that.

I also noticed that they were getting by based on some exaggerated claims. They did work on David Goggins book which was a massive book and a huge, huge success. But they also touted the fact often that they published Tiffany Haddish’s book. Now, Tucker Max wrote her book but it was published by Gallery Books, which is a division of Simon and Schuster. And I noticed that they were promoting it on their website, very much leading people to believe they had published it, which would, of course, be a very big deal. David Goggins became very well known as a result of the book, but Tiffany Haddish was very famous, I would say more famous than David Goggins. And so if she had chosen to work with Scribe, that would have been different. And I wondered, “Okay, if they're fudging the details on that, and that I think that is a pretty big detail to fudge, what else are they fudging?”

There were all these articles and stories about how Scribe is the best place to work. It is the happiest workplace on earth. I actually just finished reading a book about Tony Hsieh, the founder of Zappos, he was obsessed with Zappos being the happiest place to work. He died very tragically a few years ago in a fire but it was controversial. And the end result is that he sounded like one of the least happy individuals on Earth. So whenever hearing a place is so happy, my ears perk up and I think, if you're happy, aren't you just being happy and not talking about it everywhere?

Also Javon McCormick made it very clear that he was very interested in promoting his personal brand. He posted all the time on LinkedIn. He published his own book, and he made it really clear that that's what he wanted to do. I have a friend who talked to him about a partnership with Scribe and this friend said that really all he talked about this wanting to do to further his own personal brand. And there’s a lot of buzz that he became more interested in becoming famous than he did in running this big company. 

What the Scribe Files podcast that I listened to said that he had leased this very expensive building in Austin right when the pandemic hit and so everybody kind of converted to work from home. And so it was just a really poor investment that drained money. They also had 130 employees and that is a massive, massive overhead.

I also noticed when I would talk to a lot of potential clients, they would say, “Scribe charges less” but I looked at their website and I would see that their think was to upsell; they give you this kind of low ish sounding price. And then you get in and they go, “Well, you really need this marketing.”

And I could look at the marketing offer and because of what I know about publishing, I could see that it was BS; it would say, we're going to pitch you to 100 podcasts, we're going do this, we’re going to release this press release. And I could look at this long list of 12 things and go, that is taking them about two hours and about $500 in expenses. And there were no guarantees. And so somebody who doesn't know media at all would look at that and think it sounded like a great thing, I could tell it wasn't.

And so it turns out, that was being run by somebody who really didn't know anything about marketing; I talked to a former Scribe employee this week who just said everybody there knew it sucked. But this person was in charge, and there was nothing they could do. The conclusion is don't have a marketing plan that is run by someone who doesn't know book marketing.

And really, I think that's a really big determination, if anybody runs a business and is looking for what not to do. When Tucker Max left, the people who were running this organization had no experience with publishing. And I noticed because there are a lot of other hybrid or custom publishing companies run by people who seem to have discovered that book publishing is a good business to be in but they have zero experience.

One of the things that I'm very proud of is that I come from traditional publishing; I've done six books with HarperCollins, I did a book with Simon and Schuster, I've hit the New York Times bestseller list. So I'm able to take those elements of traditional publishing and merge them with the way publishing works today. So I think that if you're going to have a publishing company, have someone running it who has lots of experience in publishing. 

And so, a month after all of this, Scribe has not updated their LinkedIn or their website, which seems dishonest. I ran into somebody I know who is a client. I saw him about two weeks ago and we were talking about this. And he said to me, “Oh, Scribe has personally reached out to me, and they said it's business as usual and don't believe the headlines.” And it turned out that that was that was not true. 

I promise you that I am not concluding I'm so great and Scribe is so terrible. I think I have made tons and tons of mistakes as a publisher. And I've also learned a lot from Scribe, all positive things. I think what I've learned from this is that in addition to everything I've said, even the most successful systems can go belly up if they're mismanaged.

And I do think that much like a person needs to consistently grow if they're going to evolve and remain healthy and all of those things, a business always does too. And I know that there was a lot of bravado by the original founders, about “We know everything and this is how it's done.” And the reality is that you have to consistently study and consistently be educating yourself so that you don't rest on your laurels. 

And I think this just shows what a volatile business this can be if people are trying to do it as a factor. Books are not cans of soup; they are exquisitely loved into existence, and part of me is relieved to find out that wasn't wrong, that that didn't make any sense. I did want to say I have deep admiration for what Scribe was able to do. And I think it's really tragic to have your legacy attached to something that went down in flames.

I think anybody can learn from this. You may be considering working with a hybrid publisher. Or maybe you are studying what hybrid publishers do and are doing it on your own or maybe you are still submitting to traditional publishers. I would in addition to listening to this, Google and find out what is out there about Scribe.

CLICK ON ANY OF THE LINKS BELOW TO HEAR THIS EPISODE OR CLICK HERE TO GET THE POD ON ANY PLATFORM

Find Out What People Really Think of Your Cover & Title with John Li

 

Regular listeners know that I'm obsessed with PickFu, a software that, in technical terms, provides actionable pre-launch feedback on creative options. (How obsessed? I never had ads on the podcast because I wanted to wait until there was something I loved so much that I could recommend it without reservations. And, well, PickFu is it!)

That's why I was delighted to welcome PickFu's co-creator John Li onto the show. And it's also why I'm delighted to use PickFu to get feedback on my covers, titles, book descriptions and Amazon book pages, among many other things. Yes, you can go onto PickFu set up a poll and ask between 50 and 500 people—hand-selected based on interests, income and thousands of other options—for feedback. This isn't "Yeah, that's good" feedback either; it's feedback that people who want to participate in polling are being compensated to do—millions and millions of people, as it turns out.

In this episode, John walks us through how PickFu started, the craziest things it's used for and why someone with no need for an income would want to participate in something like polls.

Listen in and my God, if you know what's good for you, please give PickFu a try. If you use the code Pickfu.com/anna, you'll get 50% off your first poll!

HERE'S HOW I CAN HELP YOU WHEN YOU'RE READY:

→ You can sign up to hear my secrets every week at www.AuthoritySecrets.Club

→ You can grab my Book Launch Blueprint for $20 (it gives you over 29 PDFs that we use for the launches of clients who pay tens of thousands of dollars) 

→ You can apply for a call to work with Legacy Launch Pad (we have packages that range from $3k-150k)

CLICK ON ANY OF THE LINKS BELOW TO HEAR THIS EPISODE OR CLICK HERE TO GET THE POD ON ANY PLATFORM

Lessons Learned from my Most Recent Launch

 

It was a meta on top of a meta on top of a meta experience to record this episode, which is all about what worked and didn't work for the launch of my most recent book (which happened to be based on podcast interviews I've done on this show).

This means that for the launch, I tried out a lot of the things experts have recommended on this very show...some were very effective, some not so much. While it's impossible to say what the end result of all my launch efforts will be because our books have long lives and what we do at launch could end up paying off 100-fold down the line, I give you here the bird's eye view from six weeks post-launch.

HERE'S HOW I CAN HELP YOU WHEN YOU'RE READY:

→ You can sign up to hear my secrets every week at www.AuthoritySecrets.Club

→ You can grab my Book Launch Blueprint for $20 (it gives you over 29 PDFs that we use for the launches of clients who pay tens of thousands of dollars) 

→ You can apply for a call to work with Legacy Launch Pad (we have packages that range from $3k-150k)

CLICK ON ANY OF THE LINKS BELOW TO HEAR THIS EPISODE OR CLICK HERE TO GET THE POD ON ANY PLATFORM

 

The Power of a Writing Group with Tim Gager

 

 When someone says they're in a writing group, that can mean many things. 

They may be doing a "write your book in a weekend" class or sitting down with fellow writers once a month.

For Tim Gager, it means showing up five days a week, online, for the past three years.

That's because Tim runs the writing group I started when the pandemic hit. In those three years, at least 10 of its members have launched books and numerous movie projects, in-person readings and lifelong friendships have come to be.

Yet, in all that time, I've somehow never talked about the writing group on the podcast. Well, that all changed with this episode, where we dove into how a writing group transformed Tim's life and career. I should mention that when he joined the group, he was already a critically acclaimed author of 16 books!

For more information about the writing group, click here. For more information about Tim Gager, click here.

HERE'S HOW I CAN HELP YOU WHEN YOU'RE READY:

→ You can sign up to hear my secrets every week at www.AuthoritySecrets.Club

→ You can grab my Book Launch Blueprint for $20 (it gives you over 29 PDFs that we use for the launches of clients who pay tens of thousands of dollars) 

→ You can apply for a call to work with Legacy Launch Pad (we have packages that range from $3k-150k)

TRANSCRIPT:

Tim: Amazing.

Anna: Tim, we're doing this.

Tim: I’m excited.

Anna: I know, it's kind of amazing. So Tim, let's just, I, I will have done an intro. So everyone will know that you have however many books. 17?

Tim: 18.

Anna: 18? Oh, that was a good guess. 18 books. You and I met on Friendster.

Tim: That is correct. And Friendster, look how far Friendster has gone, like its original Friendster connection.

Anna: I know what, I mean, you're my only one. It's not like I met anyone else there.

Tim: Well you know, those circles, those concentric circles. You know, you can't deny that.

Anna: No, you can't deny it. So, so then what happened is when the pandemic started and I sent out an email that said, hey, will anybody who wants to jump on and write a 10am Pacific join? What happened then? How do you…

Tim: I got this email. I was on your mailing list to begin with. And I get this email during the pandemic. And I'm kind of like, well, you know, what do I do during that time? Stare at the wall or work on some writing and I was like I'm in. And I was introduced to some amazing people that, you know, I'm still in contact with today, amazing people, amazing connections. And, you know, three years later, we're still meeting daily.

Anna: So it's crazy. So, so we should explain you now run it. And you're someone who showed up from the beginning. And, and so we are in the process of potentially coming up with a new name. It has been called the Inner Circle that was just like a random name that came up. It seems to encompass everything I don't like, which is it sounds exclusive. And this is the most inclusive community that I'm aware of. But so what's, what's happened over these three years for you there?

Tim: For me, besides now running the group, wow.

Anna: Yeah.

Tim: It’s, the group has changed. We've had a different cast of characters. I've really gotten to know these people. You run into them daily. And these people might, are my friends. And if I go out of town for a reading, they all show up if I'm in their town. And I show up for them. It allows too that it's really, really interesting that how we support one another. I really feel the support from the group. And I think the group feels support from each other in terms of where to go in their writing, getting feedback, things like that. And for me, it's just been a real, real blessing that, you know, I've been in face-to-face writers’groups and this seems like one of the best face-to-face writers group, and it also keeps me accountable. I mean, I've got that hour to write every day, which is something that I need.

Anna: Yeah, I mean, I'll say. So it started and like you said, it's been a different cast of characters. And then, once it was going for a couple of months, I said, I'm gonna monetize this. It's to, it's taking my time, but also as my mentor Joe says, when people pay, they pay attention. And by charging, just, you know, a sort of nominal amount, and we do, sort of do scholarships if it's somebody who really wants to do it and that amount isn't, you know, isn't feasible. It really went to a new level. So let's talk about what happened once people started paying.

Tim: People paid, they showed up, they wrote books, they finished books. They, they honed their craft. And they're just really, really just, in fact, to see some of the people at the core people show up every day. And there's a solid core, but there are people that show up once a week or twice a week. I mean, I was, I was joking with Friday Ray, because Ray's there every Friday. That's his day. And, you know, also the connections too, like, these are people that, you know, they're paying, but they're also really, really, kind of a lot of them are well known, and they're very, very modest individuals. And I've been able to use those connections for my benefit, and I've been able to use my knowledge to help them because many people have not finished their first book and, you know, we point them in that direction.

Anna: How many books have been published from the Inner Circle, do you know?

Tim: I’ve lost count. I would say that in the group, say that, you know, we've had 40 to 50 people run in and out, I think we're almost at a 50% rate for even people that have showed up just one time. I mean, they count as a loss [laughs]. But we've had so many books, you know, and I can't even, I can't even name them. But, you know, I've read each and every one of them. Part of our support is to have the advanced readers team. And that catapults all of us into the, you know, the sights and minds on Amazon, in terms of, you know, Amazon promoting our books for us. So that was a great little, great little lesson I learned.

Anna: So you had published 15. Yes, so you had published 15 books, I think. And then you discovered what we do for each other, which is, you know, we sign up for each other's launch squads, and then we read the book ahead of time, and listeners have heard me talk about this. You know, and so you experienced what it was like to, you know, on your 16th book, I think, to get a number one bestseller,

Tim: And ever since, you know, I’ve had three number one bestsellers.

Anna: Right.

Tim: And it just, you know, it's so validating that, you know, I've been trying to get, you know, my books recognized, and also in the hands of people. And you know, it's really exciting to have a number one best seller. Sometimes it's humorous. I got Amazon, and it was Amazon subcategory which was wrong, which was like science fiction poetry something and it's kind of like, well, number three in science fiction poetry, like, that doesn't, that's not really describing my work at all. Let's do the aliens sonnet.

Anna: Yeah, a part

Tim: Part flying saucer, haiku time.

Anna: Yeah. Party Girl was humorous science fiction.

Tim: Yeah.

Anna: And so, and so we were talking before we were recording about how people's writing has improved, which, okay, I'm going to tell you the honest to God truth. When we started the Inner Circle, I thought, these sweet people, this is never gonna happen. And it really was a testament to showing up and writing every day, because six months later, I come back, and I'm listening to professional writers. What happened?

Tim: Professional writers and professional promoters. And what happens, which is so wonderful about the group is, if you're working at something, especially writing, writing’s the perfect example, that if you're working every day, you can't get worse. You can only get better as a writer. You can only get better. And that's what happened. And also with the shared knowledge, in terms of promotion, and also in terms of writing, like just very, very basic stuff becomes, becomes mastered, like, how do you hook the beginning of a book? How do you hook the end of a chapter? You know, how do you do things like that, that, you know, if you're a beginner writer, you don't think about it or you're told about it after you finish the entire manuscript, and you gotta go back and create this really fake hook thing. So people gain the knowledge along the way. What we don't do is we don't complete the book for you. I think a lot of people come in, they expect, okay, we're having a one-on-one meeting, let's go to, through your book, page by page, word by word, and we don't do that. And I mean we could, but that's a whole different concept. And that's, you know, that's developmental editing so, which is something actually that I've become involved in since this writing group. So again, it's another…

Anna: I know, I love that. Yet, so I love that too because the last time I was there, you know, Heather's like, I, I was thinking, and I was thinking, I was like, who do I want as my developmental editor? And it was Tim, you know. So it's, it's really given you, you know, let's not call it a new career. You very much have your own careers going, but, but, you know. I don't know, had you ever been a group facilitator before? I know, you've been doing those reading series forever. But…

Tim: Very briefly, like, I've done workshops in high schools, or like student day of poetry and the whole day of like, running workshops, and I've been in other writers groups, but in terms of like a daily facilitator, and being able to, you know, share information. No, I've not, but it's, you know, I think when I was picked to do it, I was thrilled. I just think it's such a natural fit.

Anna: And it is, you know, just like anything it was, it was work to, to get to that, you know, we, we had another, a number of people go in and out and everything is just finding the right fit. And the feedback I get about you as a facilitator is just, it's just crazy good. So, so you know what I think is really interesting is this whole time it's been going, you know, I'm pretty much uninvolved. I, I go one to two times a month. But I always was like, I don't know, what is this? How do I describe this? And I, and it was only in the last couple of months, honestly, that I realized how, I don't want to sound dramatic. Like I really think it saved people's lives.

Tim: I agree.

Anna: A couple people would not literally be here without it. Because it came along at a very challenging time in the world and in people's lives. And it, I know, I know you don't love it when people say that it's, you know, the best therapy in the world. But how do you think in terms of support and writing, it fits together?

Tim: It's important as a writer to have a safe space. Because if you're writing really hard stuff, you're tearing off that band aid. And if you're doing it in front of people that you've haven't had conversations with. Our folks, it's really kind of funny, we, four days a week, we come in, and we check in before we do our hours of writing. And sometimes the check in is all personal stuff. And it's like people trust each other. And but it's kind of like, I'll let the personal stuff go for five minutes, experience be like, okay, let's check in on writing now, like, what are you working on today? So it's all connected to have a safe place to write and have a safe place to hang out. And, like, I feel like in that group, I can tell people anything, which means if I'm writing something, I can write anything. I can write my innermost secrets, like I can, like stuff, I wouldn't even reveal in step five [laughs], I’m like telling…

Anna: Yeah, really?

Tim: I'm telling people. I'm able to write about it now. Funny thing, I know a lot of know step five. Step five is when you reveal to another people, all the horrible things you did, that's the basic thing. And like, when, I when I did mine in program, I didn't even do it with anyone. I didn't want anyone that I knew to know about my stuff, or like, maybe get circulated in the group. So my therapist at the time, he had gone through 12 steps, and he was in recovery, too. So I said, can I do my step five with you? So I paid $150 an hour to do my step five, so it was [laughs] a paid, a paid step.

Anna: Yeah, and my poor sponsors have listened to hours and hours and hours for the price of free. And so, you know, I know Leianne always goes, you know, it's the cheapest therapy in the world. It works out to $4 an hour. The things we have walked each other through, not really me, but you guys have walked each other through. I mean, we have had a lot of people in recovery. A lot of people. I mean, for a while, we had three people who were writing about coming out of a cult. We have seen people through the deaths of family, we lost a fam-, Inner Circle member. And, you know, and lots of tears have been shed. It's pretty amazing, because, and I'm not promoting the, this group through this conversation. I have never really done much to tell people about it. It’s very much, I would say, it's hard to find [laughs]. You got to work to find it and get in. And you and I have talked about, like, you know, should we be expanding it more? Should it be multiple groups? What are your thoughts on it?

Tim: I mean, I think that it's, it's the world is the oyster, you know, like, I think that we can expand if we want to, we don't have to. Like I'm always open for a challenge. And I think it would function just as well. Now Leianne saying that the group is the cheapest therapy you can find. Let me tell you even Leianne has that point of view. She has grown so much as a writer and as a critique-er. Like, looking at other people's work, she has been so spot on as, as of late. And, you know, that wasn't always the case. And when you learn other things, in terms of critical listening, and when you're looking at other people's stuff, you're able to look at it within your stuff. And Barbara too. Like you know, Barbara wrote a wonderful book about, you know, the loss of her son to addiction and through suicide and like you know, Barbara is one of the most supportive persons. Now she volunteers with families and individuals who have lost people like that day. Like, she's like on this team that goes to the site and you know, what growth by her and, you know, she's got two books now. You know, through our group.

Anna: Yeah. And I remember when she first came to me, that had just happened.

Tim: I remember.

Anna: It had just, she had just lost her son. And I said, join this group right now. And there have been a lot of people that I've sort of run across in my travels. And I've said, join this group now. And sometimes they listen. LaTonya was someone I met at South by Southwest.

Tim: She’s back. And she actually, she finished her training and she was back yesterday. And it was such a joy to see her. What a wonderful person.

Anna: Yeah, so it's like, I never know who's really going to listen and show up because I will say this: It's a scary thing to show up. And you and I have seen probably, you haven't seen as many as I have. I would say there have been 60 to 70 people over the three years who have applied, been accepted, and ghosted. So they showed up and went to the trouble of saying, I want to do this. I'm going to apply and then couldn't show up for themselves when it happened. Like what do you, what do you think about that?

Tim: Some people love the idea of having a book. They really love it. I think everybody, it's kind of like, you fantasize about being a rock star or a pro athlete. I think people fantasize about being an author and finishing a book. But when push comes to shove, unfortunately, you have to write it [laughs]. You know, the hardest thing about writing a book is writing a book. And you know, I'm not saying that that's the case with everybody. But I think like when the grim reality set in, like, oh, it's like a one day at a time thing, right? If you're looking at something the rest of your life, or I've got to finish this book now, or immediately, it can be overwhelming. And you know, that's why the day to day is really great. And when it comes to reality, sometimes people are like, you know what? I just don't want to put in the work.

Anna: Yeah, yeah. And I think that what's also interesting, and I know I'm jumping from topic to topic, is the, the wide variety of topics. We have a book that was published by a member that was all about saving yourself for marriage, The 49 Year Old Virgin.

Tim: Dr. Paula Perez. Yeah.

Anna: 49 years old, right? And then we have a book in the works that's all about understanding your sensuality, and you know, and your sexuality. I know, she's all, she's always like, it's not the same thing. But I just love that, you know, it really spans the gamut of topics. We are, you know, as they say in program, we are people who would normally not mix.

Tim: Exactly. Yeah. And to have somebody, I mean, Dr. Paula Perez is an educator, married to a holy man. She's very holy herself. And you know, we're able to look at each other's differences, but like, you know, there’s this common theme of support and love and writing. And we're able to look past all of that, all of our differences. Yes, Dr. Paula Perez has started a tip jar for anyone that swears, so like money's coming in that way.

Anna: Oh, no. No. I know, every time I show up and swear, I'm like, sorry, sorry Paula. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. I'm like, but you know, it’s how I talk. You know, and so I will say, to kind of going back to what we were talking about before. I always felt how do I promote this book? Because we're not teaching you how to write a book. There are so many programs out there that are like, write a book in a weekend, write a book in a week, right, you know, and it's not that. And I felt so good when, when Ray showed up and said, you know, and he's a super successful Hollywood guy. And he shows up and he says, I've joined a lot of writing groups. And this is the first one where I actually felt people cared about each other. And we, I know we've talked about that. I was only in one writing group ever, when I lived in New York, and I would pretty much cry afterwards. And it's the one book that I never finished writing because I just felt like it got so torn to threads, I think, to shreds. You know and, and I don't know how it became this, like loving family. I really, really don't. But what do you think?

Tim: I'm in full agreement, I think, you know, we've become this family because I think we're really gentle with each other. You don't always have to tear books down or be competitive, or, you know, try to show how much…we're very humble people. We're not trying to show how much we know by cutting down others. And even if someone is reading something, or submits some work for critique, people only get encouragement. And they're able, because it's a safe place. They're also able to take the critical types of critiques and use them and work with them because there's, there's trust there, you know. It's not like, you know, it's, it's a team. It's not a bunch of like mean people. I always think of, even though it crosses all genders, Mean Girls, you know. It's all genders. There are mean boys, mean guys, mean groups. And it's not that at all. There's none of that really like, snide backstabbings, group dynamics stuff that you can find almost in every group, whether it's a writing group or book club or a cooking group. Like there's none of that rumor and snide stuff. We're all very, very open with each other. Not all personalities meld. But you know, it's, it's all good really.

Anna: But we've almost with, almost without exception, never had a problem. It's, you know, because one bad apple can really affect things. And it, I don't mean to be so whatever, but it does feel sort of divinely chosen, almost each person. And I'm not blowing smoke. But I do think a lot of that humility really does come from you. And it's like, when Jeff Cooper joined in, all these people, like you had, however many books and the group was being facilitated by people who had no writing experience and yet you showed up. And I really, really do think that has been an example. Because you were so humble, I had no idea how many books you had until we were going in this. Well, you know, recovery has taught me humility. And when I attend my recovery meetings, I don't say that I'm a writer, and I don't…and people are actually surprised. So that's been good practice for me. And it's a good lesson for me. And I think it's important because, as writers we fall into this world, we need to separate from, right? There's this world of promotion, that we don't know, we need to promote, but we don't necessarily believe all the things about ourselves that we're putting out there. Like, we're not walking down the street saying, hey, read my new book. Hey, I'm at the corner store, check out this blurb. And you know, we don't do that. And I think we get misunderstood for that a lot. So we have to try extra, extra hard in our real lives to be humbled.

Anna: Yeah, that's a really good point. And about the promotion thing. I would say, since you and I got into publishing that has changed a lot. When we first got in, you didn't have to worry about that. There was no social media. You could do press if you wanted, but there was no putting yourself out there. And I have really had a turnaround where I went from really resenting it to really thinking it's a privilege because listeners have heard me say this before, but it's like social media is our opportunity to have our own TV stations, art galleries, magazines, TV shows and, and if we look at it as a privilege and not an albatross, what an amazing thing to be able to say: I am an expert. I don't need gatekeepers to tell me that I have chosen myself. And I think we've really nudged each other. I would say you have become somebody more comfortable with…

Tim: I think it's really, really, because there's so many different options. It's really, really empowering, which direction you take. There are so many different avenues to promote. And, you know, more is better isn't always the case. But sometimes better is better. A former member of ours, and current friend, which of course I retain all these friendships. Dar Dixon, who's an actor and producer, he was, I was just talking to him the other day, and he was like, I walk into auditions. And they ask me, how many followers do you have on social media? And he says, I don't even go there. And it's got nothing to do with what I do. And very often followers don't mean much of anything in the book world. They're just people that throw likes at you. Do they throw book sales at you? Probably not as many as you think.

Anna: Alas, yeah, I mean, the New York Times did a story in 2021 about how Justin Timberlake had set you know, 4.8 million followers, no 34.8 million whatever it was, and sold like under 100,000 books, which is of course a whole lot of books, but not really and that it's not about followers. It's about engagement. It's about does, do these followers want to read what you have and it's a very, yesterday I put up with posts, hey, join my advanced reader to my launch squad. Maybe, I got a lot of followers, I maybe got 10 people, not a lot.

Tim: That’s surprising. You do so much for so many people. That’s surprising that people just wouldn't jump on that.

Anna: I was surprised too. I know. I mean we're doing okay, but I will say most members of the Inner Circle have not joined yet so…

Tim: They will.

Anna: You did immediately.

Tim: They will, they will. They love you. They will.

Anna: Now wait, there was something else I was gonna say. so talk about so, you know, the connections you've made and the people in there like what you and Cory are working on.

Tim: Yeah, Cory and I, we’re having this, you know, we've had a slight delay, but we have this sort of symbiotic relationship, that I'm helping Cory with his book and he's helping me write a screenplay. And, you know, maybe I think he might have more clout in that world than I have in my world. But you know, Cory is so humble. And he's so easy to work with and he’s so excited about everything. It's so great to be working with Cory. And like, it's not like, you know, you can go out to Hollywood in California and people are, they’re, they’re…Someone described this the other day. They're nice, but they're not kind. You know, there's a lot of disingenuous type of people but Cory is so genuine. Yeah, he’s so genuine. He’s been…

Anna: I mean…

Tim: He’s been through the wringer. And he's come out…

Anna: I, I just was gonna challenge that.

Tim: Go ahead.

Anna: Sorry.

Tim: No go ahead, you were gonna challenge…

Anna: Well, no, I was just gonna say, I don't I, I, yeah, I mean, I live here and I find some of the kindest people ever. You know, I, I hate those stereotypes about LA, like because it's just never been my experience. However, it's not like I'm, you know, work at CAA. So it's not like I'm in the cutthroat world. But yeah, Cory is like a puppy. And, and I love too how this group, I met Cory at an event I did because his wife Stephanie came. And you know, and then Leianne was my, my roommate when I graduated from college. I mean, I just love how, how random just the joining is. Like I said, LaTonya I met at South by Southwest like it really, it really is right now. But now, okay, you can talk about the bad LA people. But how Cory’s a good one.

Tim: I’m not saying bad LA, please love me. I'm not talking about you bad LA people. But like, one thing, like people like Cory too. Gifted, talented writers who've never been told that and have never shown their work. And like, those are the people that just work so well in Inner Circle. Like, they need this push, like, wow, like, you know, this, this is great. You know, this is great stuff. And you know, your life is fascinating. And I can't write that. I can't write like that. Everyone writes differently. I think it's, you know, I come in with book writing experience, quote, unquote, but like, I don't write like anybody else in that group. And they don't write like anybody else. And that's, that's the beauty of it.

Anna: And that reminds me too, the anthology. Okay, so we got to delve into Chris Joseph for a minute. Chris Joseph is somebody who showed up day one who said, I'm writing a memoir about my unconventional recovery from cancer. I think he had a manuscript, and in three months, he had really no professional writing experience. We, my company published it. And, um, you know, and so first of all, I think that's interesting, because then we have people like Kimberly, who I met in person, like two weeks ago, who say, you know, I feel like you're pushing me a little hard, I really want to, you know, who’s years into the process. So it really is at any pace. And then, so but just side note about Chris, so when we first talked, I said, I think you should be a coach. I think he should coach people through cancer recovery. And he said, I would never do that. That's, I'm not interested in that, you know. Cut to he's now being certified as a coach. And he has started three podcasts. And he's putting together his TEDx talk. And I just, I love that evolution.

Tim: And his book is being passed around like Johns Hopkins, various universities and like, it's, it's really amazing. And Chris is example of a guy that was just driven and I’ll use Barbara Legere as an example too. You know, Barbara’s son just died. Chris, you know, six-and-a-half year recovery from stage four… What kind of cancer was it? It's one of the bad ones.

Anna: The worst kind. The real bad kind, I can’t remember.

Tim: Yes, pancreatic cancer. And so they both were like, I'm driven for this, like, I have so much behind this. I'm so invested in this subject. And no matter how you do it, I mean, I, when I write, I like to get it done in a really driven way, so I relate to that. But I also relate to people that want to take their time and, you know, they want to pick through their work and have it exactly. Because if you don't like your book when it comes out, you're in big trouble. For various reasons.

Anna: Yep. Yep. Been there. It's, it's a terrible feeling to have to promote a book you don't like that you also happen to have written. It really is. So, so what Chris and former member Beth did, is they said we want to do an anthology with members of the Inner Circle. So they put together The Epiphanies Project, and they managed it. And that book came out and, you know, became a number one bestseller. And what I thought was really interesting about that, is so Cory, who’s had all this success, said, that's what really made me a writer, having an essay published in an anthology. So I'm very proud of the fact that that anthology came out of the group and what do you think?

Tim: I think the anthology is great. And I really, besides Cory, I think everyone gained so much confidence seeing their work in print and hearing good things about. There isn't, there isn't a dud in that. And we all question ourselves. Like, I think my contribution to the anthology is the worst piece in there, but that's just what writers do. So it just was a wonderful work. And like, the first time, the first time you're published and you get your hands on it, it's absolutely euphoric. Like, again, like, like, you know you fantasize about being a rock star, and suddenly, you're up in front of like, 3000 people with a microphone. Like, that's the exact feeling.

Anna: Yeah.

Tim: And, you know, it's, it's wonderful. I still remember the first person that published me. Like I was a failed poet in my mind. And, you know, someone published a six-line poem of mine in a, in a journal was kind of like, you know, I think I can do this. And that's exactly how these projects work for so many of us.

Anna: Mm-hmm. And I want to, what you don't know, is that I think I talked Barbara into editing another Anthology for the group.

Tim: Oh nice.

Anna: I know. I know. So you'll find out about that. And, you know, that is something you know, so, so it was Mike, Mike Duffy said, ah, this group has transformed my life. I think it should go global. I think more people need to know about it. And so we started to have those meetings to try to develop that. And I, I don't, I don't know. But I do know, you know, what he talked about is, the, all these studies about there's a friendship deficit, and he's, he’s in society, and he knows all these people who are so successful, but are missing this. Um, you know, I don't know. I don't know what's gonna happen with this group. But if you step back and go three years later with, frankly, not a lot of effort in terms of, no effort in terms of marketing, this thing is still going. It's crazy.

Tim: I agree. And like Mike Duffy, wow. Like, that was, when I heard his thoughts on the group. I was kind of blown away. Like Mike's always impressed me as this really, really intellectual guy. And, you know, he's there, he suits up and shows up and to hear that it was, it's life changing to somebody. And boy, that's just amazing.

Anna: Totally blew my, plus he scares me so much [laughs]. So to me,  I was totally shocked. You know, you don't know what's going on in people's, in people's minds. But, but what else have I failed to ask you or say about the group that you want people to know?

Tim: Oh, God, we've covered so much of it. It's very, very welcoming if you're looking for a group. One for accountability, show up every day, write for an hour. Two, for to get great feedback. Three to get really good friends to have. Improve your skills, have that support have that, that friend community deficit overcome. Like, I think it's like, it's an amazing group. And, you know, we want it to grow. We're very, very welcoming.

Anna: Yeah, and that's, that's another thing I should mention. You don't know. There are a lot of people who pay for that group, and have never shown up or who show up once a month. And I think it's really interesting that the people want, that they, they still, they still do it. And it still is a value to them. Plus, they know, the way that, the way that I try to incentivize people to stay is that it goes up $5 every season. So if you leave and you want to rejoin, you pay up the new price, and I will tell you, Chris Joseph made that mistake of leaving and had to come back and I didn't make an exception. I’m like you're paying at the new price. But in terms of new people, I, I do sometimes worry. Oh my God, new people are going to come in and how are they going to feel welcome? And they always seem to. What is it, how is it that new people who don't know this group of people that are very much embedded in people's lives? Do you think? Why? How is it that they feel so welcome?

Tim: I just think that the quality, the quality of the people and the personalities in there right now is, I mean, you can't ask for anything more. It's just a natural welcoming. We've had a lot of loss in general, we've had a lot of struggles. And it's like, it's just really, really wonderful to welcome people in. Like, come on. Come fly with us. You know, that's really an important aspect of, of any group, you always want to feel welcomed and always has to be, feel sincere. And I think you know, we do that.

Anna: Yeah, yeah. And I will say, the only reason you were not running it before was very sexist. I truly had in my head, it had to be a woman. And I don't know why I had that. But I did. And I'm just so glad that I got over my abhorrent sexism and saw that you were the person for it.

Tim: Oh, well, thanks. I mean, I've always been described as more of a woman than a man in terms of personality. So maybe, you know, there's a little bit of a meeting halfway there. I mean, I'm an [inaudible]. So I'm very, very sensitive. And I think as a facilitator, you have to jump into people's, you can't come across as this authoritarian figure, you have to jump into people's lives. Where they are, what their skill level is, how they're feeling. Like it's all really, really important for the development of new writers.

Anna: Yeah. Well, Tim, you are a delight. If people want to find you at, you know, first of all, they can join the Inner Circle. And now I really can't change the name. Now I can't remember if we said this while I was while we were recording or not. I don’t like the name, did I say this? Because it, it implies exclusivity. And it's the most inclusive community that I know of.

Tim: Yeah, we could call it Word Warriors. What kind of… Word Warriors come out and play. We get the beer bottles, Word Warriors, Word Warriors [laughs].

Anna: So if you're listening to this, you know, look, if it's, if it's Inner Circle, if it's Word Warriors, whatever it is, if, if we're not open for new members at that time, just fill out the application anyway. And, and I will say we let most people in. The application is how committed are you to this? And, and also, I will say, while we have had fiction writers and we have had screenwriters, the majority of people are writing nonfiction.

Tim: Yes, but I think that it's open to everybody. It's open to everyone. Ray’s writing fiction. And they are, fiction’s my forte.

Anna: True Ray’s…

Tim: One of the actual double, Beth's one of the reasons why I joined is I knew I had a memoir in me and I didn't know how to do it. And you know, around people that write memoirs. And now I'm like, I hear people's stories like on the street or, or people I run into. I’d be like, have you thought of your memoir yet and they're not, they're not writers. It's kind of like, I'm so interested and fascinated by people.

Anna: Yeah, so yeah, anyone listening want to join. Don’t know if we’re open for membership when you're hearing this, but um, but I highly consider it. You do not have to feel like, oh my God, I can't show up five days a week. Oh, the other thing I, that happens is people who can't meet at that time, they do offshoot reading write, writing groups. Like I'll, I'll sort of see something in the Facebook group that says, oh, anybody wants to meet this Saturday. So it really is a community that blows my mind.

Tim: Yeah, it is.

Anna: Sorry, if people want to find you, Tim. Where do they, where do they go to find you and find your book?

Tim: Well, since my name is fairly unique and there might be one of us in the country, just remember Gager is G A G E R. Just Google Timothy Gager, you'll find my website. You can contact me through that and you'll get a good, just by Googling me, you'll get a really, really good cross references how to contact me and what I'm up to.

Anna: You’re blowing my mind. My whole time I thought it was gayger. Good to know. Slow learner.

Tim: Oh, no, no, it’s the first five letter last name that no one gets right. Gagger, gayger. Jaeger.

Anna: Yeah, I mean, Tim Gager. Say it all the time. Alright Tim, thank you so much, and thanks you guys for listening.

Tim: Thank you, Anna.

Anna: I'll see you next week. Talk to you next week.

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Getting Local Love for Your Book with Carlyn Montes De Oca

 

Carlyn Montes De Oca is a passionate animal advocate, international speaker and multi-award winning author of Dog as My Doctor, Cat as my Nurse who has also been featured on ABC and CBS and in Woman's Day magazine.

But it was what she did for her most recent book, Junkyard Girl: A Memoir of Ancestry, Family Secrets, and Second Chances, that we focused on. Rather than trying to tackle the whole wide world, she focused on her local area: Santa Fe, New Mexico. As a result, she got in with the local bookstores, pitched the local TV shows and set up local events. Now she's become a bit of a local celebrity.

Steal her techniques and dominate your hometown! From there, take on the world.

HERE'S HOW I CAN HELP YOU WHEN YOU'RE READY:

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TRANSCRIPT:

Anna: All right. Well, Carlyn, so glad you're here. So glad I pronounced your name right. Um, what ,car lean? Um, so okay, so let's talk about how you have been able to sort of focus on regional promotion, getting you know, your hometown behind you. Tell me your approach.

Carlyn: Well, first of all, thank you for getting my name right. Second of all, I actually come from, well, I start, I'm from California. So I started off in my adult life in Los Angeles, then I moved up to the Bay Area, San Francisco. And, you know, I launched my first book, and then, from those areas. And then we moved to Santa Fe, which is a much smaller community. And this is where I launched my new book. And I sort of thought, well, Santa Fe is small. It's the capital city of New Mexico, but it's small. How am I going to really connect with readers? I've only been here, you know, four years, how am I going to connect? How am I going to do this? And I was shocked and surprised, pleasantly surprised, to see how this community really embraces their authors and their creatives. And they did the same to me. So, I, so I have just been going ball busters since my launch in November, thinking what I would do would be to exhaust my community. And, and I'm still going, I'm still moving. You know, they always say a book launch is a marathon and not a sprint, but I'm sprinting still.

Anna: I love it. It's a marathon and not a sprint unless you're gonna sprint the whole marathon [laughs].

Carlyn: And I'm not a runner [laughs]. So I don't even know why I use that, started talking about those terms, but…

Anna: So how do you do it? So I love this. Because most people listening are probably not in big cities. They do have a community, they do have a region, how do you start?

Carlyn: Well, this is what I did. One thing is you can never start early enough preparing, at least for me, I'm not a pantser. I'm a planner. And I just start, I started listing all the possibilities of things that I could do in this area. And so I have been really successful with, for starters, local media. I mean, they are really happy to talk to a local author. They're really happy to talk to a local author having a local event. And they're particularly happy to have a local author with a local event that is promoting a local charity. And as an animal advocate, I am all about animals and how to try to create a better world for them. So I always donate a certain percentage of my books towards animal rescues or organizations. And I did the same with this book. So I had articles written in all of the big papers. Articles, not just like about your book, in the Santa Fe New Mexican, in the Santa Fe Reporter. Last, two weeks ago, I went, Albuquerque is only an hour from us. And I was on TV there on Fox News with my dog, you know. Promoting, promoting all of this. So local media has been amazing. The local bookstores are, surprisingly in Santa Fe, are a harder nut to crack. But because the book is very professional looking, it's got a wonderful cover on it, that I was able to crack that nut and they have that in my, in my local bookstores. But let me tell you a really cool story about also how community, how your friends, I mean you never know who your friends know, or who new friends know. Like, for example, when we first were going to move here, I read an article that was interviewing this guy who was a journalist who lived in Santa Fe. And he was into dogs, and he was part of the Santa Fe animal shelter. And I thought, oh, he's interesting. So I wrote him an email. And I said, I loved your article, blah, blah, blah. And little did I know, he thought I was a stalker at the time [laughs]. But he was really nice. And when I moved here, we connected. And soon enough, we became good friends. Well, this guy happened to be, like the head of, at one point, he was a former journalist and the head of Reuters in Asia. And so we became friends. He wrote an amazing little endorsement for my book that's in the book. He has connected me to so many people. And then recently he connected me to a woman who used to, who was a six-time Emmy award-winning anchor in St. Louis, and had her own show, you know. What was it called? Face to Face with Karen Foss, where she interviewed all sorts of national and international lawmakers. So she's doing in conversations with me at the bookstores. And everybody loves them because the level of her ability to interview someone is so high. And yet this was all because I reached out to some guy I didn't know in this area. But this is how just friendships can blossom and people can connect you to other people. So again, I mentioned charities I donate to Animal Protection New Mexico, is a charity that I'm donating with this book, and they support me. You know, they're getting it out to their, to their followers. And some other things I do is I tried to connect with influencers in the area, like, are they literary influencers? Are they other authors? Or, you know, the other day I walked into a, right before my lunch, I walked into a place where they sell stamps and stuff of that nature. I get into a conversation with the woman there. My book is about adoption. She was adopted. She's into animals. I used to work in the film business, she worked in the film business. She says, can we host your event because I have an online bookstore? And I'm like, uh sure. So she hosted my book launch. And it was 35 degrees outside and we were all in the courtyard. I had 35 to 40 people there, sitting there. And this is because people know me, they knew her. And then what do you know, she opens a bookstore in this community. And where Junkyard Girl, my book, is right front center on the table and they sell. I've never had that many books sell out of a bookstore.

Anna: Wow.

Carlyn: So these are kind of these little things that, at least I do, to just continued to connect with people in my community. I'm a vegan, I go to the vegan restaurants. One of them sells my books there.

Anna: Oh my God, you said so many good things. Okay, we're gonna stop. I love it. So many good things. So one of the first things that you, well, you said, okay, so local media, you know, and so you went to Albuquerque, and were on TV. So what should someone listening, they go, okay, so I know my local TV station. Do I, do I write them an email? Like, how do I know? What, what did you do?

Carlyn: I researched. So what I always do is I, and I have a big spreadsheet of research I've done of like, what are the top TV stations, the radio stations, the press. And of course, I read some of their articles, I listen to what's on there. And then I look and see who are the newscasters, let's say, for television, because that was a little harder than the others. So I went and saw who were the newscasters? Because truthfully, I don't watch, I don't, I watch Netflix and Amazon, and I read the news, but I don't watch it. But so I looked and I went, who likes animals? Because that's who, what connection do I have with these people? And then I found people that I know in one of my communities who had been interviewed by them. And I said, and they gave me the personal email. So I reached out to these people, and I, I have studied publicity, publicity. I did study with a company for two years so I feel like I write pretty good pitch letters. And so I pitched it. And quickly, they responded and said, yes.

Anna: Wow.

Carlyn: And they did it right before my next book event, which was at Barnes and Noble. And so they, so they got me on there. Now Santa Fe works really differently, let's say, than LA. Because in the end, I actually called them on the phone to just…

Anna: What?

Carlyn: And you can never do that. But I find you can do it in Santa Fe and Albuquerque. And everybody's okay with that, but not in LA. So you, you kind of, usually an email is the best way to do it. And try not to have any attachments on it, because they often don't open it if they do. But try to find something… And also, I will say I've been told this, is do not give up until they actually say no.

Anna: Interesting.

Carlyn: Nobody's ever actually said no to me. They just, and sometimes they answer after two or three times. But you just keep and offer a little more value like oh, and this is coming up, you know, and this is to benefit this organization, or this is a thing I'm having. So, you know, they need news.

Anna: Yeah.

Carlyn: They need news that's not terrible things going on in the world.

Anna: Yeah.

Carlyn: So, so that’s how I approach media.

Anna: I love it. So found somebody, found out who the sort of posts and newscasters were, found somebody you knew who had been on, which I think is the key thing, got the personal email, probably put the subject line: John Jacobs told me to email, you know, something that makes them open it. And then how many times have you emailed to follow ups?

Carlyn: Well, it depends. It really does depend. I, I would say with the television thing, I did pitch them early on without a couple of those things in place. And I didn't hear from them. This last time I pitched them, I heard from them immediately. Like immediately. And this is what I've been told is, in fact, my friend who's again, this news anchor from St. Louis said, you never ,you keep pitching because you never know who's going to answer that pitch, that letter, who's going to read it.

Anna: Yeah.

Carlyn: They have such a turnaround at these places that one day one person will be like, oh, I'm not interested. And the next day will be like, oh, this is fascinating. In fact, in Santa Fe, the biggest newspaper here is the Santa Fe New Mexican. And I sent a letter to the editor of that, of that. I didn't hear from him. So I decided to call to make sure I was getting the email. He answered the phone.

Anna: Oh my God.

Carlyn: And I said, Do you have two minutes? And I told him what, and he's like, yeah, this is good. This is good. But then the reporter that he gave it to said, he said to her, would you like to do this? And because she had a personal connection to the story, she said yes. In fact, yesterday, I pitched a podcaster locally, and they had a personal connection because they also had a situation where they discovered something through DNA.

Anna: Mm hmm.

Carlyn: That was a surprise. So you never know when somebody's gonna go, wow, I have that connection, or I like animals, or I like knitting or whatever it is to you.

Anna: Yeah, that's interesting because I think that we all are, you know, are scared of being annoying. We're scared of being quote that person. And we are intrinsically very self-involved. So we think like, oh, they're so annoyed by me. No, they're not even thinking about you. And, and I think it's, you know, and because you have these two parts of your story, the, the DNA adoption, and then the animals, where if someone has that in common, that's not like, oh, we both like pink. That is like a heart-to-heart bond. It is something, and it's like, a lot of people who listen to this, and a lot of my books are about recovery. If someone's got that in common, they're gonna feel instantly connected to you. And, and want to help.

Carlyn: Absolutely. I think you're, you're absolutely right. And this is the thing somebody told me once. They said, if you do not promote yourself, nobody else will. And I always remember that. And to be totally honest, I don't think I'm necessarily being annoying. Like, I feel like I start conversations with people and we enjoy each other. And then the connection results from that. Like, honestly, another thing that I do, which sounds silly, but it seems to work, is every day I hike with my dog, I have a rescue dog. I hike with her every day. I kid you not, I meet somebody new almost every day on the trail. And because I have a dog and they usually do too, we strike up a conversation about dogs. I'm an animal advocate, I write about animals. I often then, we'll, they'll say, what do you do? And I tell them, so even like, either I'm going to get them to come to an event. Or I'm going to get them to sign up for my newsletter because it's all about the animal human bond. So they like, and even yesterday, I was, I ran into somebody and I, and I was just thinking that they're from LA. And they're like, wow, and then suddenly I run into people. And I tell them what book it was that I did. And because it's such a good community here, a tight community, they're like, you’re Junkyard Girl?

Anna: Right. I love that.

Carlyn: Yeah.

Anna: Oh, and by the way, it's clever. I'm sure you weren’t being annoying. I think I live in fear of annoying people. I live in fear of following up too much. I'm going through it right now. Because as you know, I'm kind of getting ready to, to launch my book. And there are two people I know who used to drive me crazy, following up when I was kind of a higher-powered person in media. And you know what? Those two people are incredibly famous today. And they had no problem asking me over and over and over and over again. And I have to remember, you know, that, that you, like you said, nobody, nobody's going to do your promotion for you. And I think what I love about your approach is like, you really look, you get that this is part of the job. You got spreadsheets, you, you know are going out there and doing things. So let's talk about getting the book in bookstores and then, and then pitching local media. With, and I've got an event, did you walk into your Barnes and Noble? How did you do that?

Carlyn: Yeah [laughs]. Barnes and Noble? Yeah, I was so surprised by what a great reception Barnes and Noble gave me. Well, I walked into… Albuquerque has a few bookstores. So Barnes and Noble was the first one I walked into, and they took like, 14 of my books. And then they took all my other books too.

Anna: Aww.

Carlyn: And last I did an event there and they kept 30 of them. So I was thinking, lovely, thank you. And so yeah, I walked in and, and that's, this is the thing Anna, it's not like, I like, was born being able to promote myself like you. Believe me, it took a long time for me to just go, I'm not annoying people. But that's the difference between… I think my first book did very well, but I still had all that, those self-limitations. The thoughts that oh, you're not good enough. You're gonna annoy this person. Gosh, what a, you know, nitwit you are, whatever. With this one, some of those layers have fallen away. But they don't, they do a little [inaudible], there's some little voices in there. But yeah, I walked into Barnes and Noble and I just went in there. And remembering like, I'm a published author. I do self-talk.

Anna: Yeah.

Carlyn: So if I hear any negative talk in my head, it's like, no, I'm a published author, I have a great product, a great book. Why wouldn't they be happy to have this book here? And um, and I think maybe that energy sometimes really works in your favor. So yeah, they took the books. Then I went to this other bookstore. And I barely got two sentences out, I was waiting for a pitch. And they're like, we'll take them. Yeah, we'll, we'll order them. So they ordered them. And then there's a third bookstore, who funny enough, has a very strong connection. The woman used to be associated with the animal organization I am in. They’re doing a book event for me in September. So I've got, so that was those bookstores. And then here in Santa Fe, all I needed to get it into, was this one that is the hardest and the most popular, and everybody knows it. And it's kind of like a prestige thing. But she took it and she was very complimentary and took a lot of copies. And I walked in there the other day, there's only one left. So that was good. So it's really a matter of, and this local bookstore, we made this connection, and they're constantly calling, saying, bring us more books, bring us more books, because we're running out.

Anna: Wow.

Carlyn: So I think it's a matter, and the thing is, I can't approach every single bookstore in the country. So, and bookstores, you know, there's an issue with the, you know, with bookstores, they'll return books, and then you have to, you know, pay a certain amount. And that's part of the process. But it's just like doing a little bit here and there, and, and so this is enough for me for these bookstores. Oh, I have them also in the areas I grew up in, like Santa Barbara. And, you know, I'm planning on doing something in Los Angeles, because I have a community there and in the Bay Area. But that's a little bit, just in another month or so.

Anna: Interesting. Do you, and in terms of getting people to show up, I think this, I mean, you're just, all you're doing is making me want to move to New Mexico. I'm just like, aww, everybody hikes around other dogs. Do you walk around with your book, so like you're on a hike with your dog? Do you have your books on you?

Carlyn: I will tell you, well, it's only because it's a little heavy to put in my backpack. But I pretty much walk everywhere in Santa Fe with this book. But what I do have is my business cards. And right now because I'm having an event in April, at the library actually, in Santa Fe that I'm carrying these everywhere. And to be honest, I probably do have a, a little bit of a fear, [whispers] okay maybe a bigger fear, a bigger fear of failure. So I am determined that people are going to come and so I have made this massive list of everywhere that I could reach out to in Santa Fe. All, you know, all the calendars, you know, in the communities that will write up your thing. I, I go to the dog park, which I do every day. I'm handing out the flyers. I'm on that dog walk talking to people going, I, I’ll pass somebody who's walking the dog, and I'll go, hey, I'm this person, and I just want to invite you to this thing. It'll be really fun [laughs]. And so I do that. So yeah, I'm constantly kind of doing that. But people don't seem to mind.

Anna: In LA, like you might get arrested. They'd be like, what [laughs]? Um, but yeah, I mean, I love, I love this. I love this community idea, this, like, you know, you're becoming a local celebrity. If you're in the paper and you're on TV, and people are saying, Oh, you're Junkyard Girl.

Carlyn: Yeah [laughs].

Anna: I love it. What um, what else? What other tips do we have, for people? Oh, here was also my question. So you said that the bookstore will say, bring, bring us over some. Do you do it on consignment? Or are they ordering through Ingram? Or how are you doing it?

Carlyn: However they want to do it. I literally will put like 60 books in my car. Whenever I go to some, some place like that. However they want to. Some of them have bought them from Ingram. Some of them say, can you, we’ll buy, you know, can you bring them in and we'll sell them on consignment? Whatever makes their life easier. I try not to be a pain in the ass at that point. It's like whatever you want, I will do. And so, so that's what I do. Another thing that I have done, which is, I think has worked very well, is local book clubs.

Anna: Oh, tell me more.

Carlyn: Albuquerque and Santa Fe are my closest regions. I mean, I'm available to do book clubs anywhere online on Zoom. But I have looked up, I've Googled all the book clubs in Santa Fe, all the book of clubs in Albuquerque and sent them an email saying this is who I am. This is what I’ve got. This is, I would love to come in and do an in person, you know, book club event at your thing. And this woman wrote me back I remember from Santa Fe, going oh my God! Who doesn't want an author to come and talk to at the book club? Yes. And so I have those scheduled, and also, I have, just because I'm doing regional right here, it doesn't mean I have an expect-, I'm not constantly on the lookout for other opportunities or look to my greater communities of the areas I've lived in, in the past. So I've done book clubs in the Bay Area. And I'm still, you know, kind of reaching out and moving. But it's sort of like concentric circles. I started off with my book and me, starting with family and friends. They moved to the next concentric circle, which to me was my email list. And then social media. And now I'm in this next circle, which is like the fourth circle, which is region, my area, community.

Anna: Mm hmm.

Carlyn: So, yeah.

Anna: Um, I also feel like, you know, and then your last circle, and I'm sure you do this, but like, I'm sure there are big news stories about DNA test surprises and stuff like that. Like, like, the minute you, about like Donald Trump, it turns out, like, that's not really his kid. Like, that's when we get you on The Today Show. Talking about that kind of thing. Right?

Carlyn: Yes. Absolutely. And to be honest, every morning, I do, I don't read the newspaper thoroughly. I look at every headline from every major outlet, to see if there is anything and so, you know, but part of the issue, I'm a solopreneur. I'm on my own. I don't have a team. So I do have to have my antenna out constantly going, okay, this, this, this, but again, I mean, I, I was in Women's Day magazine in, you know, in January, with my dog. And because I saw an opportunity there and I reached out and they put me on page two, so…

Anna: What was the opportunity? How did you find it?

Carlyn: It was, I have subscribed and now I don't remember their names that…

Anna: Harrow? Was it Harrow?

Carlyn: No, no, not Harrow. But there were some other, yeah, but something like Harrow where you're looking for podcast opportunities and this and that. So I've signed up to all the ones for free that I could find. And this one came through and I looked at it and I went, oh, I'll pitch them this idea. And I did and they ran with it.

Anna: I love it. I love it. Well, so this is fantastic. If people want to find out more about your book, you, find you, where should they go?

Carlyn: Well, I hope people, especially animal lovers out there, I have this phenomenal newsletter that is really heartfelt. And it is for anybody who is interested in the animal human you know, connection, and you can find everything about me at animal human health dot com, animal human health dot com (www.animalhumanhealth.com). And here's all my social media is all on there too.

Anna: This has been so awesome. Thank you so much for all these tips. And thanks you guys for listening. 

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Using Your Book to Build Your Business with Ian Altman

 

Ian Altman is one of the world's top expert on sales, with his Same Side Academy rated as one of the top 5 Sales Development programs globally.

But instead of focusing on sales, we talked about how he has used the book he co-authored, Same Side Selling, to attract clients to his business.

We also touched on having a podcast and everything else with the same name as the book, producing an accompanying book workbook, updating a book five years after its release and so much more.

Only listen to this if you want to make money from your book!

HERE'S HOW I CAN HELP YOU WHEN YOU'RE READY:

→ You can sign up to hear my secrets every week at www.AuthoritySecrets.Club

→ You can grab my Book Launch Blueprint for $20 (it gives you over 29 PDFs that we use for the launches of clients who pay tens of thousands of dollars) 

→ You can apply for a call to work with Legacy Launch Pad (we have packages that range from $3k-150k)

TRANSCRIPT:

Anna: So Ian, Ian, let's talk. You just said words that were literal music to my ears, which is the book sales were basically a rounding error compared to the millions you've made sort of, off the book, or as a result of your book, please elaborate.

Ian: Well, I think that many times when we write a book, some people have this idea that I'm going to make a ton of money on the book itself. And in Same Side Selling, we wanted to change the way people sell and the way they approach sales and marketing. And in doing that, you realize that look, some people are going to read the book and implement everything, get what they need. Other people need additional tools that help them get there. So we have a journal that helps people implement the concepts, I deliver Same Side Selling Immersion workshops around the country and around the world for that. My keynote addresses are typically called “Same Side Selling.” And then we have a whole membership site called the Same Side Selling Academy, which is a digital platform that has live monthly coaching in addition to a whole wealth of information all centered around same side selling, so it kind of became a broader brand. And the book is, if you think of it this way, it's a almost free entry point for people to say, yes, I agree with that philosophy. It can change my business. Now I want more. And it also serves the people who say, I read it. I get everything I need out of it. Fantastic.

Anna: Mm hmm. So in what order did it come? Was the book part of the initial plan or did the book come after the business and all the other things?

Ian: So the book came first. So I was, I was helping people with sales. I had grown my prior businesses to a pretty good size. I mean, we built a business from zero to a couple billion dollars in value. Like I'm sure there are many businesses that are larger, but by most standards, it's not a bad run. And, and so when I stopped doing that, because I was totally burned out, I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do. And people said, you always seem to enjoy helping other people grow their businesses more than you enjoy growing your own business, which I think to this day is still true. And so I set out to kind of help people do that. And as I was teaching different approaches, I met my co-author Jack Quarles, who Jack is a guy who’s spent two decades in purchasing and procurement. We found that we had a lot of ideas in common and wrote this book about how do you avoid that adversarial trap between buyer and seller. Had to get on the same side kind of putting a puzzle together. And as part of that, any training or or education or talks I was giving before morphed into Same Side Selling. Because what I was doing before didn't quite have a name, didn't have as consistent of a methodology, contextual models, all that. Now there's a whole framework and language around it. So to teach something else would be confusing for people. And so you know, we've been dealing with, quote, Same Side Selling for the last decade or so.

Anna: Okay, and so, so was it while you were working on the book that you thought, oh, this could be a program and a podcast? Or was it after?

Ian: No, I wasn't that smart [laughs]. It was more like, hey, we need to get this book out. And this will be great. And then it was, and then I thought, wow, this would be a really good idea. And obviously I've built, since I built businesses before, I was thinking about okay, how can, how can I help people more in this area and that area? And I think one of the key distinctions is, I wasn't so much thinking about what are the different revenue sources. And what are the different, what are the different levels. It was more, okay, so there's some people who are gonna need, who are gonna get everything they need from the book. And in the book, we talked about this idea of the same side quadrants. And I said, look, all you need is a blank sheet of paper. Draw a vertical line down the center, a horizontal line across, you create four quadrants. And people said, well, do you have like a journal that does that? I'm like, well, it's like a blank sheet of paper, vertical and a horizontal line. After a couple of years of people asking me every single week, it’s like, you know, maybe we should create these journals. Now the journals are really popular because it also gives people their questions, watermark, and kind of guides people through how to have discovery conversations with potential clients.

Anna: Mm hmm.

Ian: As part of that, at the same time, it was we were teaching people and people would say, okay, so now, now how do you support if I have remote people? How do you reinforce these concepts? Oh, you know, we'll create a digital platform. Now admittedly, I ran a software company before. So with the Same Side Selling Academy is likely way over-engineered compared to what anyone else of rational thought would do. But you know, but we, also a lot of our clients are large enterprise customers, and they'll have, you know, 100 reps in the Academy…

Anna: Wow.

Ian: Getting coaching, getting reinforcement, things like that. And it gives a dashboard of who's done what and who hasn't. Are they attending the coaching sessions? Aren't they? Are they there for 20 minutes? They there for the whole time? What kind of questions they’re asking. Everything gets transcribed, edited down. But the idea is that in each case, what I'm thinking is, okay, which part of the audience am I not serving? And how do I serve that segment of the audience? I think that the trap some people fall into is, how can I get people to pay me money for something instead of how do I serve the audience? And then the money will follow.

Anna: Yeah, yeah. So how lengthy is this online program? It practically sounds like college. Is it, is it hundreds of hours of videos?

Ian: It's a lot of stuff. It's a lot of stuff. So, and it's all organized. So you can, you can do a full text search and find the needle in the haystack. So if someone said, oh, I'm talking to a prospect, and they ghosted me, you just type, you know, client ghosted me. And you'll get every conversation that we've had in life coaching sessions, etc. that mentioned that phrase. And if we have an hour-long coaching session in our community, that might get edited down some months to 10 segments, some months to 18 segments. Each one is an individual clip that gets full text index that gets categorized, and that way people can find exactly what they're looking for. Because if you have hundreds of videos, and you just organize them by date, good luck if you're a user. You're never going to use it.

Anna: Yep.

Ian: So instead, one of the things that we learned, and this is not something we implemented day one, but we figured it out over time. Because like with anything else, you implement things, you make mistakes, and then it gets better. That's why we have a second edition of Same Side Selling. The first edition was fine. And then we're like, ooh, people also need these other things that we don't have. We worked with our editor to come up with, okay, how should we change this? And we actually thought about, should we just create a whole new book? And I was like, no because it's still fundamentally Same Side Selling, we're just going to create a second edition. And what we did, interestingly, is for the Kindle version, we actually just updated the electronic version. So anyone that had the Kindle version automatically got the second edition. So we weren't trying to monetize it. We were just trying to give people updated information. Now of course, that drew, drove a ton of sales.

Anna: Right.

Ian: But because people were like, wow, this is so cool. They like, they could have, when you release it, you don't have to do it that way. And we did. And in fact, we had to kind of go back and forth with Amazon to say we're updating this like, well, it's, but it's a new book. We're like, but we just, we don't want to charge people again. And at the time, I don't know if they'll let us do it today, but at the time, they said, okay, and that's what we take advantage of.

Anna: It's really, I, I can't believe you talked Amazon into that. Because you know, plenty of people do second editions, third editions of their books. And yeah, you got to pay for that.

Ian: Yeah.

Anna: So how long between the two? How long did you wait to update it?

Ian: It was about five years. About five years between the two.

Anna: Okay.

Ian: And…

Anna: Yeah, keep going.

Ian: Go ahead.

Anna: No, you!

Ian: Okay, so, so it was about five years between and part of it was that, right after we released the first edition of Same Side Selling, I was explaining to people, here are the types of questions you want to ask. And people said, well, we have trouble remembering this. And I was sitting with a client, and I said, look, it's real simple. There are kind of four things. Think of it like, almost like a quadrant on a sheet of paper. So let's just organize it this way to take notes. And then as I wrote it, I'm like, that's really helpful. That should have been in the book. And it was like, okay, we'll just talk about it and explain it to people. And then after a while, it became something that I was really well known for, is the same side quadrant. And I'm like, it's kind of funny, because people would then see me speak at an event, talk about the same side quadrant and say, but where is it in the book? I didn't find it like, well, it's, it’s not in the book.

Anna: Mm hmm.

Ian: And so we realized, there were some, there were some elements there we needed. There were things that Jack and I, in, the orig-, in the first edition, we thought, this story absolutely makes this chapter. And then with the benefit of hindsight, you're like, that story adds nothing to that chapter whatsoever. And our editor was so polite in not telling us that. But you know what, we need to, we need to create a better story there. And we need to add more stories and more examples and case studies and things like that. And that's what we did. But it was more… It wasn't, okay, how do we create another version? It was, we feel like something's missing to this story for people. So how do we, how do we better serve the audience with an updated version? And then honestly, our biggest challenge is that Amazon still has one or two copies of the original version that we can't get them to take down. And periodically, somebody buys that and says, well, I got the wrong version. Like, somehow we did something, which of course, we just send them the new version, because I just, I don't want the, the user to have a bad experience. But you know, that's neither here nor there.

Anna: I know. I mean, yeah, I have a book that was published in 2007 that we've updated in Amazon. So people were like, I got your book and they show me and it's the wrong cover and I’m like, eh, stop! How different were, are the two versions? Like it, can you say by page, how many pages are different? Or…

Ian: I would, I would say it's about 60 plus percent the same.

Anna: Mm hmm, mm hmm.

Ian: So it wasn't quite, it wasn't quite a 50 50. I'd say that 60 percent we probably didn't touch. But we reviewed everything, meaning it wasn't like, oh, let's just add these things, leave everything else the same. We went every paragraph, every sentence, and kind of, does it need this, doesn't it? Does this tie in well to this other concept or doesn't it? Is this story still relevant now? Okay, get rid of it? How do we better illustrate that? So it wasn't like we went into it saying, oh, we only want to edit this much. Or what needs to edit, we need to add at least as much. It was more we knew we were including some concepts that were really valuable. And it was a question of what was the right amount to get that done.

Anna: Mm hmm, mm hmm. And so when did the podcast come along, in that hole?

Ian: So the, the podcast, the Same Side Selling Podcast, let's say, sort of about 350 episodes and I do one a week. So it's about, call it six years or so.

Anna: Mm hmm.

Ian: About six, six, almost, I guess, almost seven years now. And so, probably a couple years into it. And my business used to be branded as a business called Grow My Revenue. And it used to be the Grow My Revenue Podcast. And then it became the Same Side Selling Podcast. And what a, what a good friend of mine, who is a marketing savant, said is, well, that's interesting. So how many brands do you want to establish? And how many brands do you want to manage? Or do you want to manage just one? Because when you go on stage, just about everybody says, oh, it's Ian Altman, he wrote Same Side Selling.

Anna: Right.

Ian: So you could name it something different. But like, why? And, and at one point, he said this, this one friend of mine says, so, Same Side Selling is the book. But then you're Ian Altman, and then you have the, you have Grow My Rev-, what is Grow My Revenue? Like, what's the name for the companies? Like, why are you making your fans work that hard?

Anna: Yeah.

Ian: I’m like, that's a really good point. So, you know, sometimes you need good friends who will hit you over the head and help you realize that maybe you should do things differently.

Anna: I mean, you're talking to somebody who had a podcast about addiction recovery when she was running a publishing company. And, and anybody listening to this knows, I think I'm on name seven for the podcast. And guess what? I'm in the process of releasing a book by the same name. It took me that long to realize the genius of just naming it all the same thing.

Ian: Yeah.

Anna: We get over creative sometimes.

Ian: Well, and it's, in the ideas, well, this is subtle. And it's a subtle difference. So I need to name it something different. And the only people who care about that is us [laughs]. We're the only ones who care about that subtle difference. Instead, it's like, people will say to me, oh, well, can you come speak at our event about same side selling. They don't even know what that means. They just know like, well, that, that concept works for us. And now, when I, when I speak, there's businesses I work with on how they can better recruit. And we call that Same Side Recruiting. Now, I don't think, I don't think I'll write a book on same side recruiting. But it's all tied back to the same brand.

Anna: Mm hmm.

Ian: And so, if you're fortunate, you come up with ideas that people get that concept, and they don't, they don't confuse it with something else. And like, you know, every once in a while, someone will say, so same side sales. That's the, that's the furthest it gets from same side selling.

Anna: Right.

Ian: Like, I can live with that.

Anna: Right. It's pretty close. Alliteration, always good.

Ian: Yeah.

Anna: So does your book lead people into the training program? Or is the training program, that's a pretty in depth? So most people don't need that level?

Ian: Yes. You know, it just, it depends. So there are some people who, they just need to get a change in direction and change in approach. And the book isn't everything they need. Other people that read the book, they see about, they see information about the same side quadrants, and they think, okay, well, there's got to be a tool that helps me do that. And then they, then they look at the quadrant journal and that helps them. Then people say, you know, I want to learn this stuff. But I don't necessarily want to go to something on site. I don't necessarily want to make the investment to bring, bring Ian into work with my team. But hey, I can send a bunch of people through this program for the next year. And they'll get better at this.

Anna: Mm hmm.

Ian: So it's almost like, I mean, it wasn't done intentionally I like to say it was. But it's almost like, hey, you can buy the book and it's almost a zero investment. And as part of that, you can listen to podcasts and everything else. All those things cost you almost nothing. The journal costs a little bit more than the book. Okay, it's still a pretty low investment. Then it's oh, now you can get into the Academy. That's gonna cost you the equivalent of about 85 bucks a month, for the year. Okay, I can do that. Then it's, okay, well, now we want to do one of these Same Side Selling Immersion programs with our team. And, but we want to, we don't care if it's just our company, we’ll go with other companies. Those people might invest, you know, low, in the low 1000s of dollars. And then when I'm doing a program just for a company, or if I'm doing a keynote or something like that, then they're paying 10s of 1000s of dollars. And then there are people who say, can you help me grow my business more strategically? Sure, those are, those people are investing more 10s of 1000s of dollars on top of that. And it's just a function of, I look at it, there's people who will say, well, we want to, we want to go, you know, the top level right away. My answer is usually, you know what, why don't you just give people a taste of this and see if it resonates with them? And if it does, then we have something to talk about. And if it doesn't, then you don't want to invest in it any further.

Anna: Mm hmm.

Ian: Which is probably the opposite of what people would think someone who's teaching about sales and business growth would say. But I think most people, what they forget is that, if you get a client who's not a good fit, they suck you into the vortex of evil.

Anna: Yes.

Ian: And then they're the bane of your existence and you wish you had never met them.

Anna: Yes.

Ian: And so, I would rather people take an incremental approach. Now, I have the benefit of not being in a scarcity mindset because I ran a business that was successful enough that I can truly just look out for making sure my clients are always well served. But having done that, this business has grown to a pretty good level over not that long of a period of time.

Anna: Mm hmm. Yeah. So, um, is there like a lead magnet in the book? Should people do that?

Ian: People should. I should. we don't. So it's, we, we take the approach of benign neglect. And, and poor marketing and then hope that it all works out. And it thankfully has. In the, you know, we actually, we actually do more paperback and hardcover sales than we do electronic sales. Because if you think about it, I speak at a lot of events. So people will order 300 bucks, 500 bucks, 1000 bucks, 2000 bucks for that event. So there's a lot of books that go out and in hardcover. I think the next time we do a print run, we’ll probably include something about, you know, here's where you can learn more about the Academy and this and that. Not so overtly. But just more, it's kind of stupid, because right now it’s, hey to learn more, you can go to Same Side Selling dot com (www.samesideselling.com). But they don't really know what it would be. And have something on the inside of the back cover that says, hey, here are additional resources for you, would probably be a smart thing to do. We just weren't that smart.

Anna: Third edition, third edition. So somebody who's listening who says, wow, I'm writing a how to book, they probably don't have the sort of infrastructure that you have with all the… You know, with the huge business and then the courses and stuff, what would you recommend that they do?

Ian: I would, I would recommend that the first thing to do is think about, so if people read this book, what are they going to need next?

Anna: Yep.

Ian: What's going to serve them? So if you think about it, like, for example, when I talk about these different types of programs. So I speak to all sorts of different audiences. Sometimes I'm speaking at an industry event where there might be 1000s of people there, all from different companies. Sometimes I'm speaking at an event for a company, and it could be a big company. Or sometimes I speak at these CEO leadership groups, where it's businesses that might range from 1 million to 100 million in size, which is a pretty broad range. And there's 20 companies there.

Anna: Mm hmm.

Ian: And what you have to think about is, what, what serves well, each of those audiences? And how do you package in a way that’s simple for them? So like, when I used to do these workshops, I would say, oh, and it's so much per person. And what I realized is, though it's a convenient way to think about it, it didn't really serve the audience well. And for me, if I'm trying to personalize things for the audience, I needed to limit the number of companies there not the number of people. And all of a sudden, if I had, if I had 30 people from three companies, it was easy. But if I had 20 different companies, there's no way I could personalize it for people. And so then I said, okay, now we do these, we limit it for, we limit it to 10 companies max. Here's what it costs per company. That gives you two seats and then each additional one is an incremental cost on top of that.

Anna: Mm hmm.

Ian: And that way, if six companies show up, it still financially works for me. And, and I stick to it. If, if 11 companies want to come, one of them's on the waiting list. People will be like, oh, well it’s my buddy’s company, just one additional company. I'm like, I can't do that. Because I know this is the limit that I can serve that audience. And I think that for my advice to people is always think about how you are well, serving your audience. Because the people that sign up for my programs now, almost 100% of them are people who came from someone else who said, wow, they sent their team. And they said that they have doubled their business in the last year. And their sales cycles went from nine months to three months, and their margins went up. When are you doing one in my area? Like, that's where you want to be. But if you don't serve your audience, you're gonna work a whole lot harder.

Anna: Mm hmm. So somebody who, let's say they have a how to book but, and they want to coach and they want to use the book as a way to bring people into that program. Do you think, you know, sort of a, a quiz or something? And then a course, and then how would you recommend they go about that?

Ian: You know what? It’s gonna be different for each business but usually we have to tap into is, what problem are you solving for that audience? And the first thing you have to do is get people to say, yes, I have that problem.

Anna: Yep.

Ian: Right. So I mean, you know, you wrote a book on addiction recovery. I believe that's the first step is people acknowledging do they have a problem. So it's the same sort of thing in business, which is, if people don't believe they have a problem, they don't really care about your solution, your coaching. So many times in business, what people do is they talk about, well, here's this coaching I provide, and I do this, and I do this, and I do that. Scrap that. Instead say, well, when people are looking for my help, they're usually trying to solve one of these two or three major problems. They either have this issue, this issue or that issue. And then you can start creating content all about those issues and problems. And what happens is someone reads it and they think, wow, they totally get me. Or they watch a video and they say, yeah, that's me. I mean, if you look at my podcast, more than half the episodes, I mean, we have case studies and success stories and different authors on and people talking about different things that can help. But fundamentally, most of the topics come down to, what's the biggest mistake people make when it comes to this, or this or that. Because the people who want to hear that topic are the people who are facing that issue.

Anna: Right. Right.

Ian: And if your message resonates, they're gonna get it. So it's, it, it comes down to, do you have this problem. And then let me do a quick, quick assessment and see if I can help you. You know, which category you fit into. Oh, you have this? Great. Best advice I have for you is read the book, here's this online resource I have, you'll be all set. I mean, it's kind of funny. I can talk to three different companies, and sincerely say to them, hey, in your case, this is what's best for you. And have three different approaches for each of those companies, because I have different offerings that hit at different levels for them.

Anna: Yep, yeah. So, so one way is literally to just put something in your book that says, want to book a free talk, you know, with me, and, um, and to really just look at it as a point of service. Like, talk to somebody for free or whatever, for 15 minutes, see if you can help them and go from there.

Ian: Yeah, and you can even say to people, look, if you want to get a sense as to whether or not I might be able to help you. Then there's a quick 10 question assessment that's on my site. It'll give you a report back, and then I'll reach out to you and let you know if it's something I think I can even help with. So that's a, that's a concept that we teach called disarming, which is, look, if you say, hey, you can schedule a call with me, so that maybe I can sell you my stuff. No one's signing up for that.

Anna: Yeah.

Ian: If you admit that most of the people you talk to don't need my help but some people do. And so here's this assessment that will give you some insight. It'll give you a sense of how you compare to other companies in your space, other businesses like you, other people like you. And if, if there are additional resources, I think would be helpful I'll share those with you. Well, now someone goes, well, I'll fill that out. Because it's going to give me a sense of how I compare to others, or what resources might be helpful. If we say to them, hey, you can schedule a time so I can try and sell you stuff. No one's signing up.

Anna: Yeah, yeah. And bonuses. You know, there is a way you could put bonuses in the book and people sign up for your newsletter list, and you're explaining, but I love this. And you can just do software, quiz software that's pretty easy to get.

Ian: Yes, Survey Monkey. You can do it with Google Forms, you can like, there are different ways to do it. The key is, getting back to where we started, is consistent branding. So it would be the Same Side Selling Assessment. It would be like, it's funny, one of, one of my, one of my philosophies is that scripts are horrible. Like people always say, I need scripts for my sales team, and I'll say, okay, so have you ever been on the receiving end of a phone call of somebody reading a script? Yeah, okay, but it’s a phone call. How do you know? Well, cause it sounds robotic. Okay, so do you really want scripts? So we have something, we have a, a lead magnet on our website that says, you know, the, the, you know, here, here are seven scripts to grow your business [laughs]. And then like, as soon as you download it, it's like, yeah, there aren't really scripts. These are, these are alternatives to scripts. And like, we kind of make fun about it.

Anna: Amazing.

Ian: But it's, but it's just kind of funny, because it's, it's a common thing that people would ask for. And I'm like, Okay, I don't want to just bash scripts, you know, for no reason. But it's more like we made it kind of a playful thing.

Anna: Yeah, I love that. And a side note, you know, I end up doing sales for my company, even though I don't want to. People, you, kind of as the founder sometimes, because people say, I want to talk to you about this. Look, you know, and I talked to some sales trainer, and he gave me scripts, and I've never done quote, worse on sales than when I was following those.

Ian: Of course.

Anna: Because I just was so inorganic for me. Usually you know what my sales calls are? I'm not sure we're right for you. I really don't know that we're right for you. And they just want to give you money.

Ian: Yeah. And that's what and that's what it should be. Because the reality is, until you know enough about their situation, you can't possibly know if they're a fit for you. And it's one of the things that we spend a lot of time working with our user base about is, for our clients and our members, it's a matter of, look, you can show up in one of two ways you can either show up as someone who's there to sell something, or someone who is there to solve something. And if you show up as someone who's there to solve something, then towards the end of the process, you get to ask a simple question, which is, would you like our help?

Anna: Yeah.

Ian: And so it's something that's all integrity based?

Anna: Yeah.

Ian: And it's just a function of, are you having this discovery process where you're determining do I have a good fit? And if not, refer them to somebody else.

Anna: Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, I think if you approach it as like being of service, rather than just trying to make a sale, then you're not resentful. You're happy. It feels good to help people.

Ian: Exactly. And you also don't feel a sense of rejection if someone's not a fit. They’re just not a fit. It's not like you were rejected. It's, yeah, these people don't have a need for what I do right now. And I get inquiries from people who were like, well, we're, you know, we saw you speak at this event, it was amazing. So we'd like you to, you know, can you speak at our event? And their budget is equivalent to what most of my clients pay for my travel expenses for an engagement.

Anna: Right.

Ian: And I'm like, you know what, I'm really flattered. Here's some ways if you can get a sponsor this and that. Here are ways other people do it. If not, let me see if I can get you somebody who's in that price category who can help you.

Anna: Right.

Ian: And people will say to me, well, do you get a piece of that? No, but I'm just, I'm serving people who are trying to do the right thing for their audience. And you know, people get so nuts about, well, I can't possibly spend 30 seconds of my time doing something that's not productive. Yet these are the same people who will spend four hours a day just randomly responding to stuff on social media [laughs]. So you just focus your time differently.

Anna: Yeah, and I think that goes for anyone who writes a nonfiction book. You want to help people. And so, you know, as you so eloquently talked about, probably the way you're going to be the most successful is just by trying to serve. Forget trying to sell.

Ian: Yeah.

Anna: So this has been so great. Ian, thank you so much. If people want to find you, find out more about you, where should they go?

Ian: Anna, this is gonna come as a shocker but if they go to same side selling dot com (www.samesideselling.com)...

Anna: Oh, in my mind.

Ian: They will find me and of course, you can also find me at Ian Altman dot com (www.ianaltman.com) and on social media and most places at Ian Altman (@ianaltman). But so it's just I A N A L T M A N but Same Side Selling will get you there.

Anna: Fantastic. Ian, thank you so much. This has been illuminating.

Ian: Anna, I thanks so much for everything you do for your audience.

Anna: Well, and thanks audience for listening. Love it.

CLICK ON ANY OF THE LINKS BELOW TO HEAR THIS EPISODE OR CLICK HERE TO GET THE POD ON ANY PLATFORM

The Secret to Launching Your Authority Building Book

This week, I usher a new baby into the world...

My book, On Good Authority: 7 Steps to Prepare, Promote and Profit From a How-to Book That Makes You the Go-to Expert, is now out and this week's episode is an excerpt from the audiobook.

It's the book's introduction, which is all about how we're in the Golden Age of authority building from a book and how you can take advantage of that.

Only listen if you want to build authority with your book. 

HERE'S HOW I CAN HELP YOU WHEN YOU'RE READY:

→ You can sign up to hear my secrets every week at www.AuthoritySecrets.Club

→ You can grab my Book Launch Blueprint for $20 (it gives you over 29 PDFs that we use for the launches of clients who pay tens of thousands of dollars) 

→ You can apply for a call to work with Legacy Launch Pad (we have packages that range from $3k-150k)

TRANSCRIPT:

When I published a humorous novel about addiction and recovery in 2007, I had no idea it was going to make people think of me as an authority.

I was five years sober and had wanted to write a book that could show people how fun and funny recovery could be—to make struggling addicts see that recovery wasn’t the end of life but the beginning.

I put a threesome in the opening scene because, hey, I wanted to attract readers.

The authority building happened accidentally, when a Today show producer heard about the book and asked me to come on the show to talk about a celebrity who had gone to rehab. When I was leaving, he asked me to come back a few days later for another story. Then CNN called. Then Fox News. Pretty soon, I was on TV regularly, with the label “addiction expert” below my name.

At first, this made me panic. “I need to go back to school, get a master’s, do something to deserve to be called an authority!” I wailed to my TV agent. “My only addiction expertise was in chopping up lines of cocaine and ingesting them into my nose!”

I’ll never forget his response.

“You don’t need a degree,” he said. “You have a book.”

And I realized he was right. No one cared where—or that—I’d gone to college. But everyone cared that I had a book. Even if it opened with a threesome.

Every year since then, the path to gaining authority through a book has become even better paved. And yet most people who release books these days find that their businesses don’t improve, and their lives don’t change at all.

If you’ve published a book and experienced that, good news: it never has to happen again.

The reason most authors fail is that what we read about publishing is woefully irrelevant since we only hear about the successful authors. And we think, despite knowing that our chances of fame and riches are small, that we’ll be the exception—the Glennon Doyle, the James Clear. And it makes sense in a way. Who would do something as audacious as write a book and plan to NOT be successful at it?

(Losers, that’s who. And we’re not losers!)

But there’s a reason we’re not successful in the conventional sense—that is, by selling millions of copies and becoming famous. We’ve been playing by rules set up to make us fail.

What I’m showing you how to do will save you from that. It will teach you the secret to making your book wildly successful in a way that impacts your entire career—all without you having to be chosen by a major publisher, an inexplicably popular teenager on TikTok, Reese Witherspoon or fate (though if you are chosen by Reese Witherspoon, will you please let her know that Legally Blonde is still one of my favorite movies of all time?).

Still, let’s get clear about what I mean by “wildly successful." I know authors whose books were wildly successful in the traditional sense—released by major publishers, on The New York Times list, featured on Oprah, made into movies—and those authors are now struggling to make a living since those “wildly successful” books weren’t designed to support their careers over the long haul.

Book success, to me, is about not needing any of the bright, shiny, external, one-in-a-million things to happen and instead having something that attracts clients to you for the rest of your life.

Why has no one told you this before now?

It’s not because people have been trying to keep the secret from you; it’s because most of them don’t know it. It took me six books and 12 years before I understood the situation. And once I did, I realized it’s actually not that complicated if you break it down.

Hence, my 7-step system.

The key element for you to remember with this system is that it’s not about your book. Yes, the book is crucial—without a book, none of this works—but it’s the combination of the book and the authority building my system walks you through that’s so effective.

This is perhaps best summarized by author and entrepreneur Nicolas Cole, who’s a bit of a legend in the online writing space (more about him in chapter two). “It wasn’t until I actually put my first book out that I realized the way I had built myself ended up being more valuable than the book itself,” he says. “That’s what’s opened up so many doors for me.”

The process Cole and I follow is simple but not easy: it’s about first having the right book topic and then consistently working to build your authority before, during and after its launch.

That’s right; it means regularly taking action, whether that’s attending events along with your ideal clients, scheduling posts on social media, gathering subscribers, writing newsletters, supporting leaders in your field, contacting people who can bulk-order your book, reaching out to podcasters, appearing on podcasts, connecting with journalists, finding people who can hire you to speak, handing out copies of your book to strangers on planes or any of the other methods I’ll get into in this book.

If that sounds like a lot of work, remember that sometimes —maybe even a lot of times—this is fun. I happen to love going to events, speaking and writing newsletters. I know other people who love going on podcasts and posting on social media. Also, you can get a team or even a virtual assistant to help you with a lot of this.

Studies show that it takes 30 days to build a new habit and with every event, every post, every email and every call, you’re building that muscle. And, as any cross-fit enthusiast can surely attest, building muscle only makes you want to go to the gym more often.

But also know that I’m here to support you at every step. In fact, I created a calendar for you to download so you—or someone on your team—can track what you do. You can grab it (and other book bonuses) at www.ongoodgifts.com. If you start slacking, that’s okay. Just jump back into it as soon as you can. Eventually, it will become part of what you do.

Still, this isn’t about willy-nilly promo. This is about identifying the book topic that will build your authority and then training an audience to always think of you as that topic’s authority.

If you’re not interested in that, or if you still think you want to try to sell your book to a traditional publisher so you can get rich from your book sales, this book isn’t for you.

Otherwise, we’re in great shape. The information in here will show you how to conceive and publish a book that gives you the authority you need to grow a career around your passion for the rest of your life.

***

I’ve been in the publishing world since the mid-90s, and I believe we’re now living in the Golden Age since the gate-keepers have left the building. It’s like showing up at Studio 54 in 1979, seeing Bianca Jagger ride in on a horse being led by Andy Warhol and walking right past the velvet rope.

We don’t need agents or publishers or people to tell us we’re good enough. We can declare ourselves good enough—even excellent—and either write and publish ourselves or hire professionals to help us. And if we do it right, and do the work to support it, our books can make us into authorities.

While this book focuses a bit on the sort of businesses a book can help, and how to sell your services from your book, the emphasis is primarily on how to create a book that will make you an authority in your field—and then how to keep building your authority from there.

The great news about the process I’m going to describe is that it means becoming a part of the public discussion about your topic and therefore always getting clearer about what your reader wants. You’re seeing what they respond to and what they ignore. You’re discovering their interests and blind spots.

The problem with so-called authority today is that many of the people out there sharing their experience and wisdom are those with neither experience nor wisdom. How could they have either when their lives are devoted to creating TikTok, YouTube and Instagram videos?

Those who have been in the trenches developing actual experience and wisdom, on the other hand, are often too busy, well, gaining their authority to spend time showing the world all that they know.

A book is the e-ticket to the front of the authority line. It’s also one of the last credibility enhancers we have left. Where else in this world do we have an opportunity to spend hundreds of pages walking people through all that we’ve experienced and all that we know?

Even before the time of the seven-second attention span, how-to books were the sort of currency that bestowed immediate legitimacy on the author. Robert Kiyosaki went from struggling entrepreneur to expert in real estate investment when he released Rich Dad Poor Dad in 1997.

Tim Ferriss went from behind-the-scenes entrepreneur to someone who would probably pass the “Does my mom know who he is” level of fame after releasing The 4 Hour Workweek in 2007. Despite the fact that he appears to work at least 400 hours a week, the book made him into an expert on spending four hours doing anything (including cooking and working out).

I often encourage even those CEOs and founders who have no desire for the spotlight to put their business stories down on paper. Ferriss-like fame doesn’t need to be the goal. The fact is, there’s no better way to gain perspective on your life than to write it down (or have someone else write it down). This is especially true for the go-go-go business owner, who often moves so fast that slowing down to take pause and give himself a back pat becomes a low priority.

If you’re writing a book in order to attract clients, people will want to hire you after reading your book. Still, it shouldn’t be a 100- to 200-page ad for your services. In order for your book to be successful—not to mention deeply meaningful for you—it has to be so detailed and transparent that a reader could finish reading it and do whatever it is you’re describing. But the book also has to display your knowledge so impressively that a reader looking to hire someone with your expertise would only want to hire you.

That’s why you need to get very clear both about what problem you’re solving and what you want your readers to do when they finish your book. Do you want them to hire your company? Employ you as a consultant? Take your course or sign up for your coaching program? Pay you to speak? Ask you out on a date? (If it’s the last one, there are easier ways to make that happen.) Whatever it is, figure it out before—or as—you write.

I wrote and published six books without realizing this, concluding that there was no point in writing any more books since they left me broke and with no options beyond ghost- writing books for other people. It was only when a sports agent named Darren Prince reached out to me that I wised up. He wanted to get involved in the addiction and recovery advocacy space, and he saw that I’d written a New York Times bestseller about addiction.

He asked me if I’d be open to writing his book.

It was around the same time I’d received an email from a writer I knew asking if I could give her writing work. So I asked Darren if I could hire her to write the book.

He told me that as long as I edited it, that was fine.

So, she wrote the book, and I edited it. When I presented it back to Darren, he explained that he next wanted it published. So I learned about layouts and cover designs, ISBNs and uploading—all the things publishers had done for me up to that point.

We launched Darren’s book and honestly, I was shocked when he landed a six-figure spokesperson deal almost immediately after the book came out.

I was surprised again a few months later when he got his first paid speaking gig. I stopped being surprised once he got himself on some of the biggest TV shows and podcasts in order to promote his book and firmly established himself as a recovery advocate and expert.

But what astounded me even more was that the book made his sports agency even more successful. Once people knew his personal story, he told me, business negotiations started to feel like conversations with friends, which only resulted in more and better deals.

To be clear, Darren is a hustler bar none. When the book came out, he called in favors, worked the phone and always carried his book with him.

After Darren’s success, other entrepreneurs came to me, and the more they did, the more I saw their books transform them into authorities. As I built a team and grew the business —we’ve now published over 50 books, several of which have become Wall Street Journal and USA Today bestsellers—our clients’ accomplishments also grew. It’s become standard for me to see clients featured on shows like Today and The Doctors and be quoted in The New York Times.

I’m embarrassed to say that it wasn’t until I’d had my company for a year or two that I truly understood how crucial books are for CEOs and other entrepreneurs. I finally woke up to the fact that there was a reason the most respected entrepreneurs out there—from Tim Ferriss to Robert Kiyosaki to Marie Forleo—had books.

I realized then that any business owner who wanted to build trust so they could magnify the success of their business shouldn’t just consider publishing a book but actually needed to publish a book. I also realized that if the person’s goal was to transform their business and life, their book couldn’t be one of those 100-page ones that exist just so the person could call him or herself an author. It had to be exquisite. It had to be their legacy, something they’d be proud to stand behind for the rest of their life.

Understanding that changed everything for me.

***

Publishing your own book can, of course, mean many things. It can mean writing every word yourself and publishing it under your name. It can mean hiring a ghostwriter but handling the publishing on your own. It can mean working with a hybrid publisher that takes a percentage of your sales or hiring a custom publisher that gives you all the profits. It can mean a gorgeous layout and cover that’s indistinguishable from a traditionally published New York Times bestselling book.

It really depends on your goal and how you want to spend your time.

If you’re an entrepreneur running a profitable business and you want a book to help you grow your expertise, I always advise people to look at it like this: how much, roughly, do you make an hour?

If it’s, say, $300, calculate that by how long you think it would take you to write and publish a book. (The rough estimate I’ve heard is that it takes a first-time author roughly 300 hours.)

If you’re doing the math, you’ve spent $90,000 and haven’t even gotten into the editing or publishing yet.

But if the lifetime value of a client is, say, $25,000, you only need to attract four clients from the book and you’ve earned that back.

(As a non-math person, those calculations took me way longer than they should have, so I do hope you’ll take them in.)

Of course, just because you published your book doesn’t mean people will immediately flock to you. But if you already have a business, it can have an immediate impact on that business.

Within a month of launching my book Make Your Mess Your Memoir, my company brought in hundreds of thousands of dollars in terms of new clients. And a consultant I know who advises people on how to sell to the government told me that a few months after his book release, he’d brought in half a million dollars in new contracts. “I can’t say for sure it’s the book that did it,” he said, “but I do know that every new client had read the book.”

Entrepreneur and New York Times bestselling author JJ Virgin put it like this when I interviewed her for Entrepreneur magazine: “If people read my books, they’ll buy my products. We have a relationship. They just took you into their bedroom or bathroom. They feel like they know you.”

Of course, to help them get to know you in a way that makes them want to hire you requires a very specific type of book—and presence.

What’s in this book isn’t just based on my own experiences and those of my clients. It’s also culled from hundreds of interviews I’ve done with other New York Times bestselling authors and top entrepreneurs on my podcast.

There’s nothing in this book about how to outline, write or publish your book. There’s enough out there on those topics.

Instead, this book breaks down exactly what you should do before and after your book is written and published if you want to be considered an authority.

Its specific focus is on the three parts that make up my 7- step process:

Preparing (which you should do before and while your book is being written)
Promoting (which you should be thinking about and doing while your book is being written so you’re set up for success once you’re launching)

Profiting (which happens after publication)

Broken down further, it is:

Prepare (Conceive/Nurture)

Promote (Show Your Face/Share Your Voice/Get Creative)

Profit (Get On Stages/Get Clients)

If you’re the visual type who’s into cute icons, here’s what it looks like:

There’s just one deal we have to make: you need to do something to build your authority every day. Maybe it’s working on your book or the business your book will support. Maybe it’s sending out a newsletter. Maybe it’s posting on social media. It doesn’t matter what it is; just do something. If you’re thinking, “Easy for you to say, but you don’t know how busy I am,” I challenge you to find a way to embrace this process—both the writing and the authority building—until it becomes a habit. I promise you it will be worth it.

I’ve created a calendar that can help you (you can access it by going to www.ongoodgifts.com) but there’s something else I want you to do that will really hammer the habit home. When you finish reading this book (after reviewing it on Amazon, of course), email 10 people you know to tell them you’re going to be writing a book that can support your business (or soon-to-be business), and building your authority around it; see if they want to join you in the process or just let you check in with them as you make progress. You can find sample copy for those emails on www.ongoodgifts.com.

Here’s why I’m pushing you so hard to do this: if you have a business your how-to book supports, and you plan and promote that book following the system I’m giving you, you’ll be amazed by how many opportunities it will bring in. And it doesn’t even matter how many (or few) copies you sell! As multiple New York Times bestselling author Robert Greene told me, “Your book could have sold 11 copies over the course of 10 years, but you can show it to people, and they’re impressed.”

Echoes Chris Voss, “Even if the only people that actually pay for copies are your parents, there’s no better marketing tool or calling card than a book. It becomes the most viable busi- ness card you’ve ever had.”

Still, it’s even better if the right people read it—people who can become your clients, hire you to speak, buy your products or work with you in some other way. I’d rather have 100 readers who are going to be impacted by this book—and possibly reach out to me for help in their own authority-building book creation—than 10,000 people who won’t really absorb the information at all.

Many people try to launch books that change their lives and very few are successful. But with the help of Greene, Voss and the others, I’m going to show you how to become one of them.

CLICK ON ANY OF THE LINKS BELOW TO HEAR THIS EPISODE OR CLICK HERE TO GET THE POD ON ANY PLATFORM

Connect Your Way to a Successful Book Launch with Ryan Paugh

 

Do the words "networking for your book launch" make you want to curl up in a small ball and rock back and forth?

This week's guest will assuage your anxieties...or at least get you to uncurl.

Ryan Paugh isn't just a thought leader, but also a community-building, relationship-forging, entrepreneur-enabling force to be reckoned with. And he's a self-proclaimed introvert!

The co-author of the book Superconnector: Stop Networking and Start Building Business Relationships That Matter, Ryan shares in this episode how any author, introvert or extrovert, can use basic skills for connection in order to have a successful book launch.

HERE'S HOW I CAN HELP YOU WHEN YOU'RE READY:

→ You can sign up to hear my secrets every week at www.AuthoritySecrets.Club

→ You can grab my Book Launch Blueprint for $20 (it gives you over 29 PDFs that we use for the launches of clients who pay tens of thousands of dollars) 

→ You can apply for a call to work with Legacy Launch Pad (we have packages that range from $3k-150k)

RELATED EPISODES:  

How to Launch a Book by Giving First with Kay Allison

The Debut of Launch Pad with Dave Chesson

TRANSCRIPT: 

Anna: So I have the, the expert on super connecting here with me. And we know he's amazing at it because he's been so patient with me having to rerecord this episode. And so, so that's part of being a super connector, I imagine. Right, Ryan?

Ryan: Patience is a virtue. Sure.

Anna: It is.

Ryan: I think it's also a great quality to have if you're building community or building connection. So yeah, yeah, I'm happy to be here. I'm happy to hang out with you again.

Anna: I love it. I love it. So you wrote this amazing book, Super Connector. So amazing that I recommended it on KTVU TV.

Ryan: Thank you for that by the way. That was fun.

Anna: Tell me… It was, I love the book. And so tell me what is being a super connector? And how can an author utilize or become a super connector?

Ryan: Yeah, I think being a super connector is something that anyone in any trade can obtain. And really, it's it's just about utilizing and leveraging all of the communications tools that exists, in our modern social media era, to build bridges, to make connections, to put people first. I can tell you that everything in my career has come because of an opportunity that someone else had laid out in front of me. And those opportunities didn't just present themselves on their own. They manifested due to what I like to call habitual generosity. Finding moments in your everyday to give back and support other people and help them be successful knowing that, in turn over time, that generosity is going to build dividends that are going to help you reap benefits in your own life. But it's not transactional. It's about giving, understanding that organically you're going to get so much more in return from that action than just trying to sell, sell, sell.

Anna: So tell me how, you know, an author working on a book hears this and says, okay, well, but who do I do that to?

Ryan: Well, well, anyone. People like Anna, as an example, who have an audience, who have a podcast, who have reach. Find ways to support her and others like her who have influence within your field or within your area of study. Find people that are looking to tell stories about the types of things you wrote about in your book. And through those relationships and through that generosity, find ways to exchange and support one another that will be helpful to them, but also helpful for you. In this specific situation, becoming a guest on someone's podcast, being able to reach someone's network through a newsletter, being able to reach someone's audience on Instagram, being able to speak physically in a room with an audience that someone has in a location nearby. You know, those relationships don't just come because you reached out and made the request typically. Sometimes they do. But more often than not, we're all being battered with information and requests and people that are trying to just perform basic transactions. And we've been programmed by ourselves to ignore those people and pay attention to those who come to the table with a genuine opportunity, a genuine sense of generosity and, and they want to create something that's mutual, mutually beneficial. Oftentimes, that happens through leading with a give versus an ask. So I think that's really what it's all about with, with you know, launching a book, I think. When Scott and I launched our book, many years ago now, we had built up generosity with so many people over the years that, I don’t want to say it was easy, but it was definitely easier to fill our schedules with opportunities to get in front of audiences when we finally had something of ours that we wanted to share.

Anna: Yeah, that was very well said. So, so would a way to start maybe doing a review of a podcast that you like and knowing unless it's, you know, Tim Ferriss, that podcast host will probably see the review and it logs in their brain. Is that, is that a way to start? Is commenting on an Instagram post another way to start? And [inaudible] listeners like some things to do?

Ryan: Yeah, I mean, it could be something simple. It doesn’t have to be like this, you know, big sort of exchange the sort of like, you know, monumentous moments that you know. I don't know, that has like some major impact. You know, it's the little things that people appreciate. Just reaching out and saying thank you to someone. Sharing a podcast, sharing something you liked about that podcast. Making a connection between an individual and someone else that you think they should know. Helping someone else out with their book launch. I mean, if you are an author, I would say you probably, probably already know other people like you in similar positions that are looking to launch a book, you know. Join their newsletter lists and be on their book squad and help them launch with success by, you know, performing some simple actions, tweets, book reviews, etc. Those people will remember those things when it's time for you to go out and um, and sell your book. It's funny, you mentioned Tim Ferriss though, because Tim Ferriss almost wrote about Super Connector. It didn't happen because he has layers and layers of people in between him and his newsletter, and him and his blog, and so on. But the reason that opportunity came about is Scott and I invited him to a dinner. We were in Utah skiing, for one of our Young Entrepreneur retreats. And, you know, just by happenstance, Tim Ferriss was staying in the condo next door. Just by himself for the weekend. Getting prepared to launch something new and exciting as Tim does. And we knew that we had a couple extra seats at the table for, you know, our entrepreneur group that night. So we invited him to come down to a lodge and join us. And that's how we built a relationship just through this, you know, couple hours we spent together, inviting him out to spend time with a group of like-minded individuals versus, you know, sitting at home doing whatever he would have done by himself. And that allowed us to open the door several years later to see if there was an opportunity to, to do something with him. Most people won't even get a return response from someone of that level. But because we, you know, had done that just small exchange years prior, we had a chance. And those chances, you know, sometimes lead to really big opportunities.

Anna: I love that. That's amazing. And next book, he probably…

Ryan: I hope he listens to this and feels really bad that he didn't actually write about us. So then next book, he will [laughs].

Anna: Tim is, yeah, Tim is a huge fan of mine. He's never told me that.

Ryan: Oh yeah, absolutely.

Anna: But I feel it, you know what I mean? Um, you know, something that, that you just said that I think is important is, is joining launch squads. Now, it's interesting because I told you, you know, when we spoke before, I wasn't, I mean, right now I'm in heavy duty prep mode for this book that's coming out. And, you know, I put out a request for launch squad members. Now, this is a good tip, actually, which I'm going to inadvertently reveal. I didn't really get a great response, I got a, if you take the percentage of my list versus how many people said, sure, sure, I'll join. I'm a tiny 2%. So then I had a thought, and I go, you know what people really respond, they're inundated with help me, support me. I sent out an email and I said, my book’s in trouble. Will you help me? And it was kind of humbling because it's not really true. But double the, oh, my God, yes, I'm here for you. Um, which I don't know really what that has to do with, with supporting people. But I will say, I know every, even though there's hundreds of people on that launch squad, I know who all of them are because they are the people who show up every time. And it means a lot.

Ryan: Well, people like, I, I'm a firm believer that people genuinely like to help other people with real problems. I think leading with, hey, can you promote me and like put out a tweet to do X, Y and Z. It's not going to generate a response for a lot of people because it doesn't seem urgent. And we're all super busy. But, you know, that vulnerability that so many of us are afraid to, to lead with, can sometimes be a stalling out. Right? Like, you know, being able to, you know, you know, there's, there's a lot of truth, I'm sure to the fact that your book was in trouble because you were feeling a sense of anxiety that you didn't have a strong community behind you. But you did. It's just, you know, that message wasn't your sincere self, and then you send something out that was the sincere Anna that I know. And you know, look, everything turned itself around. More people need to be willing to lead with, you know, a weakness or something that levels the playing field. I think that's a really important factor in everything that we do.

Anna: So true, it's so, I know it's very hard for me personally and I know it's hard for other people. So, so let's say you're out there supporting people, you're reviewing their podcasts, you're applying to their newsletters, you're joining their launch squads, you're sharing their podcasts. And I know, I mean, it almost feels wrong to ask this because the whole point is to just be of service. But when is an appropriate time to then ask for support?

Ryan: Um, this is the answer that you don't want. And this is the answer that the listeners don't want to hear. But it's the truth, as far as I know things to be, you just know.

Anna: Yep.

Ryan: And, and as a, as a super connector, I think one of the skills you need to build is that level of emotional intelligence of just knowing. If that makes sense.

Anna: It does.

Ryan: It doesn't come easy. There's some great, there's some great books out there, some great podcasts around how to build emotional intelligence in and out of the workplace. But I think that's sort of the key to figuring it out.

Anna: Now, I think a lot of writers consider themselves and feel like they're introverts. And so they say, well, I can't do this. So you are a self-described introvert, what do you have to say to that?

Ryan: Introverts are some of the best super connectors and some of the best community builders on the planet, because they know how to step back and just be a part of the room and be a part of the community without having to lead the community. They're not the people that spend time leading the conversation or at the center of the room. They’re, they tend to be sort of on the, the parameters of that nucleus, so to speak. And they listen, they listen better than those that are talking. And they find ways to connect the dots because they're, you know, really paying attention. And they're on a different wavelength, which allows them to find opportunities that extroverts who are working so hard to be as active as they can and the conversation just, just aren't listening to.

Anna: Mm hmm. And so when you had your book coming out, you guys had built up a lot of, I mean, social capital. Is that an inappropriate word?

Ryan: It’s a little jargony. But yeah, it works.

Anna: Yeah. And so how did you guys prepare for your book launch?

Ryan: I, Scott and I, I think had the benefit of being, you know, on the front lines and building community for 10 plus years. So we had a lot of connections, and a lot of individuals who, as part of our day job at community dot co (www.community.co), we had been helping and supporting through our associations, right. We've built a business around giving back and helping entrepreneurs and busy executives connect and level up in their career. So that helped us. If we didn't have that, I would have spent a lot of time, you know, contributing to communities and associations like the ones we create. I would be joining Facebook groups, LinkedIn groups, different associations, where I could meet and support individuals within my field of interest to build up that, you know, social capital if you will, right. And, you know, just look for those spaces, online and offline, where organic collisions take place that allow you to give back and support others and, you know, build those relationships that are going to help you succeed in whatever you have coming up down the road. You know, as an author, I think you should be planning that out at least a year in advance. If not, if not like for the better part of your career leading up to a book launch. You know, I think no matter what you're doing, you should be building that social capital up, you know, in every single, you know, instance of your day. As you're, you know, just going about the, you know, everyday execution of your, your business and your work. You got to find those little morsels in the day to create that habit of bringing generosity back into the ecosystem that you play in.

Anna: Would you recommend even setting aside time in your calendar? Like, okay, I’m going to put this in my calendar?

Ryan: Yeah, whatever works. For some people it comes more natural. And, you know, I know a lot of people who, you know, have, have a tough time focusing on, like the actual work work because they, once they get into the generous mode of giving, they just, it can consume your day. And that's great until you have to get back to, you know, actually doing things. I mean, you do have to treat it like another task and you have to be a really good task manager to be successful. Good time management is the key to, you know, building anything great. And that includes making sure that you're managing your time to, to give and to, and to, you know, create that habitual generosity in your life.

Anna: Yeah, and something to mention with this is, you know, all studies show that giving is, you know, the one of the greatest keys to happiness. So you're not only getting out of yourself and being of service, it's, it's, it's an esteem-building activity. Because you realize you have a lot more power than you may realize to really support anybody.

Ryan: Yeah, it feels good. And that's, you know, that's also the nice thing about it is, you know, giving back feels good, and it adds, you know, sort of this, like, natural energy back into the work that you're doing. So, it doesn't matter if you have a book launch, you know. I know, we're, I know, we're talking to authors here, but it's, this isn't, this isn't stuff that is, you know, just about preparing for your book launch. This is stuff that's all about preparing to be successful in building anything, you know. In work, and outside of work is building that sense of community. And, you know, making sure that you are, you know, always making time to support others and what they're interested in, you know, through everything that you do, as many times as you can.

Anna: So, what if an author says, I want to build a community? What would, what would your recommendation be, maybe that's online, maybe that's offline, they just go for look for, like…

Ryan: I think it's important to, you know, do your research and know what's already out there. You know, certainly like, the, you know, sort of technology and monetary barriers of creating a community on a platform, they don't really exist too much anymore. I mean, you can go create a free Facebook group tomorrow and build a community. But, you know, who's already doing that? Do you, do you have to? Or can you be a part of a community that someone else has created? You know, Young Entrepreneur Council is one of the first communities that me and Scott created together. I didn't technically found that organization, you know. Scott started it and we sort of connected through me being a member and it was reborn. As you know, the association that it is today with myself as a co-founder, and everything that we've done since is kind of, you know, just snowballed from, from us bringing our collective superpowers to the table. So I didn't start that from scratch, necessarily. I just helped take it to another phase. You know, you're, you're one of our, you know, publishing and book author, member leaders with Fast Company Innovation Board. And I think that, you know, that's another way to build community within a community that didn't already exist, you know. You're helping bring that skill set and those superpowers to the table. And, you know, creating your own micro community within an ecosystem that already exists. There's a lot of ways to do it.

Anna: Yeah. And I think that's an interesting point. So yes, Ryan and I met because I'm a Fast Company Board member and you very generously, well, it's interesting, because it's mutually beneficial. You reached out and you said, hey, we've got this book publishing group. I think you'd be a good leader for it. And, you know, you very clearly explained what was required. Not a lot, let's be honest. And, you know and, and you were able to create these communities within Fast Company, where there's just subgroups of people interested. And I will say, I made what I would consider friends in that community and it's not like we're interacting a lot. But you know, and I would love to sort of talk about how, you know, how you've done that at magazines and, and maybe if people are interested in joining like, what is the Fast Company Board? Can we talk about that?

Ryan: Yeah, so Fast Company Executive Board. I misspoke earlier. Not Innovation Board, Executive Board is a community of executives that are leading innovation initiatives in various industries. And a lot of them are very tech oriented. But it ranges from media, marketing, creative, etc., all the things that you would, you know, imagine that Fast Company stands for if you pick up the magazine and read it ever, you know. It's that ethos. And we built a strong community of executives and entrepreneurs behind that. And the idea is that we provide access to visibility, connections and growth. A lot of the same connections and growth opportunities you would get from membership associations that you may already be a part of. But we're mostly digital, you know, we're about real time connection. Where a lot of associations are really focused on that forum or that conference that you attend several times per year. We try to be kind of like your bat signal. And oh, my God, I need help with my, my book launch. I'm going to get into that, you know, Fast Company Executive Board app, and I'm going to talk to Anna and the book publishers’ group. You know, we want to be available for busy executives and entrepreneurs when their problems are happening, which for most of us is like right now. And they can't wait till the next conference. So we want to be kind of like, you know, that support system in your pocket that you can access and get support from anytime you need. And then of course, because we are, you know, a partner and, and a piece of the Fast Company ecosystem, we're able to help members publish thought leadership in their respective trades. So we have an in-house editorial team that helps our members write tips and advice-based content from their practitioner lens that gets published on fast company dot com (www.fastcompany.com) and can help them get in front of the Fast Company readership. And also create content on a fairly reputable platform that also, you know, gives our members the opportunity to showcase their affiliation, which, which is meaningful and significant for, for business owners and executives that are looking to build authority in their space.

Anna: Yeah, so if people listening want to join their, their, you know, fellow thought leaders or entrepreneurs, I will say, it wasn't easy. It's not like it's something that's promoted widely. You know, there is clearly a, you know, a measure of exclusivity to it. It's not sort of just like, yay, I want to sign up, where do I link? How do people…

Ryan: Yeah, so, I would invite anyone who's curious to go to board dot fast company dot com (board.fastcompany.com), read about the benefits. We've got a cool little innovators quiz on there. If you want to kind of just, you know, see some of the content and some of the things that we do as an organization. And then if you think that you might qualify and you think that you might want to talk to our team, click on the Do I Qualify button. Read through some of the qualifications and fill out a form. You know, like Anna said, is, this is not like a click and buy kind of operation, you know, this is an exclusive group. And, you know, we, we literally talk to, at least once before they join, every single member on the phone, you know. There's, there's a review process, there's a conversation that you'll have with our selection committee, and if, you know, the shoe fits, we'll, you know, invite individuals to join us as members and start becoming a part of the community, contributing and supporting others on the platform, and also working with our team to build up some really fantastic thought leadership content.

Anna: Mm hmm. And you're allowed to post, I think, as often as once a month?

Ryan: It could be as often as, as that, you know, or it depends sometimes on the quality of content. And, you know, we are, you know, pretty strict about, you know, what we publish and how we publish. You'll go through at least two rounds of editing. So the typical member will publish every four to six weeks if they're looking to publish that often. But, you know, most members will publish a couple times a year. A couple of strategic pieces that really help them with positioning and, and the narrative that they're trying to get across and trying to build around their company goals. And then they'll renew again, because, you know, having that ability to work with a team that helps you craft such interesting content is a value add and something that, you know, very few business owners just have in their back pocket at the go.

Anna: Mm hmm. So I, so one thing I was going to ask you about the super connecting idea. What about, and because this is something that I've recently ran into, people you're really like pouring into and supporting and when it comes time to support you, they aren't so there for you. How do you know? You know, it's always illuminating to me when I'm doing something and asking for support. Oftentimes the most successful busy people write back right away. How can I help? What can I do? And people maybe who I've done a lot of favors for, you know, can't really be bothered to, to do anything. How do you know?

Ryan: Yeah, I don’t think you necessarily know till you know, right. You know, there's always going to be a couple people that don't show up. And it's disappointing. I hope that, you know, most people who put in genuine effort to give back towards others are going to get a lot more yesses than nos. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't be excited, or you shouldn't be disappointed by the nos. Like, that's just natural reaction, but it's going to happen. And, and I think there, the important thing to remember is, you don't know what's going on in the personal lives of every individual that you are, you know, exchanging with and supporting. You know, like, the benefit of the doubt is important. Just because someone didn't show up doesn't mean, they might, you know, never show up, right. I think it's just a game of patience. To go full circle to the beginning of our podcast here together, you have to have patience to be a super connector and you have to understand that not everyone is going to always show up. But again, it's not, it's not about always reaping, you know, all of the gains. It's about giving back to others and knowing that, you know, you will get dividends. You're not going to produce dividends on every, you know, single person that you've, you know, done a favor for, but you're gonna get a lot of return on that generosity. A lot more than the folks that are just kind of, you know, using the social platforms to, you know, create more, you know, noise than, than actual, like frequency and actual value. So, you know, just, just focus on the positive and try not to, you know, spend too much time worrying about the few folks that, that didn't show up. It's okay to be disappointed for a minute, but you know, then you shake it off, and you move on.

Anna: Yeah, yeah. I mean, and my mentor Joe Polish will say, be someone people want to pick up the phone for. Become someone people want to help. That, I mean, that's really, I think the best message is you want help, become someone people want to help and people want to help those who, who help. Um, so, final words, Ryan. If people want to find you, find out more about Super Connector or the Fast Company Board, Young Entrepreneurs Council.

Ryan: Yeah, so, you know, my company's community dot co (www.community.co). We build and manage communities, as well as we build platforms to support professional associations and, and people that already have communities to build up their programming, to build new retention mechanisms to support their business. Fast Company Executive Board is a great community, board dot fast company dot com (board.fastcompany.com). We run many other industry associations. If you want to learn more about them, you can, you know, reach out. I'm on Twitter at Ryan Paugh (@ryanpaugh). Ryan Paugh dot com (www.ryanpaugh.com) is my website, the book Super Connector, super connector book dot com (www.superconnectorbook.com). And I think that's it. I mean, you know, if you're any bit a super connector, you'll be able to find me online really quickly, because I'm really easy to find.

Anna: Great. Well, Ryan, thank you so, so much. You guys, thanks for listening, and I'll talk to you next week.

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