City of Lost Souls
discussion
Sebastian Crushes...
I think Sebastian must die. He resurrected once, and becoming worse than before. I thought when he 'blended' with Jace, at least Jace's brilliant and shiny soul can confuse Sebastian's evil mind a bit, although it was a bit impossible, considering it was Jace who was possessed by evil, before having his soul attached to Sebastian.And for Sebastian to repent and live happily among the shadowhunter is kind of a lame storyline.
Sebastian must die.
Nurlely wrote: "I think Sebastian must die. He resurrected once, and becoming worse than before. I thought when he 'blended' with Jace, at least Jace's brilliant and shiny soul can confuse Sebastian's evil mind a ..."yes i think so too, THE GUY GOT MORE PSYCHO THAN EVER
but at first i was reading CoLS and i saw him acting like that i was WHAT THE HELL THIS CANT BE TRUE ... and then i felt sorry for him and at the end he was so PSYCHO, MORE THAN EVER
but i think that he must die, the boy has no salvation and he would be better dead... don't know. but i think that he would be better dead
Nurlely wrote: "I think Sebastian must die. He resurrected once, and becoming worse than before. I thought when he 'blended' with Jace, at least Jace's brilliant and shiny soul can confuse Sebastian's evil mind a ..."Agreed. Even if Sebastian somehow became good the Clave would never let him live after the crimes he has committed. Regardless of what happens, CoHF is most likely going to end with Sebastian's death.
ive read so many things about the kiss. its not disgusting not with him because he doesnt know what love feels and he just wants that and well it was bad because Clary didnt want that but coming from him its not that bad like he has evil in him! and all this people who thought it was sick you wouldnt like forbidden by tabitha suzuma wich actually is a really good book and made me change my mind in incest.and yeah i like Sebastian and think he should become a good person he was reallly funny :)
Stef wrote: "ive read so many things about the kiss. its not disgusting not with him because he doesnt know what love feels and he just wants that and well it was bad because Clary didnt want that but coming fr..."I don't think incest can be anything but loathsome and disgusting. Sebastian is evil enough to even kiss Clary. For him to force Clary into it only tells us how evil he can be.
Sophie wrote: "I like him. Don't get me wrong, I know he's a sadistic and sick brute who kissed his own sister (and trust me, he didn't stop there), but he is smart, and even Clary admitted he was good-looking, a..."
I agree with you. I always love a crazy villain and I believe Sebastian fits that role. I also agree that the kiss was sick and twisted but that is who Sebastian is. He is a sick, twisted, messed up fellow, but he is very entertaining.
I agree with you. I always love a crazy villain and I believe Sebastian fits that role. I also agree that the kiss was sick and twisted but that is who Sebastian is. He is a sick, twisted, messed up fellow, but he is very entertaining.
Nurlely wrote: "Stef wrote: "ive read so many things about the kiss. its not disgusting not with him because he doesnt know what love feels and he just wants that and well it was bad because Clary didnt want that ..."yes i think i didnt explain myself. sebastian is evil thats why he did it and it was totally wrong because clary didnt want that and you cant kiss someone if they dont want to but thats it i got a more open mind and incest isnt bad if they both are okay with it wich wasnt the case but yeah you should get the point
Stef wrote: "yes i think i didnt explain myself. sebastian is evil thats why he did it and it was totally wrong because clary didnt want that and you cant kiss someone if they dont want to but thats it i got a more open mind and incest isnt bad if they both are okay with it wich wasnt the case but yeah you should get the point "Well... I could only go on with reading City of Ashes because I read some spoilers saying that Jace and Clary are not siblings.
Incest is disgusting, even though if those siblings are okay with all the kissing and touching.
Nurlely wrote: "Stef wrote: "yes i think i didnt explain myself. sebastian is evil thats why he did it and it was totally wrong because clary didnt want that and you cant kiss someone if they dont want to but that..."Ew, ew, ew. I had to read the end of COG before I continued the series to insure that they were not actually related. It's all kinds of wrong. Just...ew.
Shadowhunter Girl wrote: "Ew, ew, ew. I had to read the end of COG before I continued the series to insure that they were not actually related. It's all kinds of wrong. Just...ew. "Absolutely!
It may be because I'm a sucker for bad guys, or that I always find a way to sympathize with them and understand their point of view; but I love Sebastian even after everything he did. He is just a confused and twisted soul who may not even have the capacity to love, so he's trying to find an way to create an emotional attachment wherever he can.
Ariane wrote: "Thalia wrote: "Well, Nicole, your point of view is different, since you knew reading the series that they weren't going to end up that way by reading spoilers. Most people, like myself, went throug..."Oh goodness, I didn't even see this! I've kind of left this thread alone, since I feel like I dominated it for awhile, hahah. Thank you. (: I'm glad you liked what I had to say!
Also, from what I've read of recent posts, I feel like everybody might need to simmer down a little. Trust me, I'm the last person to say this, but we are talking about a character. Maybe it's because I share that point of view, but I feel like the people who like Sebastian are kind of getting beat up and anti-Sebastian people are saying that they're condoning his bad behavior and are okay with the fact that he tried to force himself on Clary, etc etc. That we must not see what a terrible person he is and think that everyone should forgive him--the WTFs and "that's disgusting, how could you think that?!" reactions kind of push me into that feeling. And if you read the last book to make sure Jace and Clary weren't related, then good for you. I, and I think most of the other people who read the series, didn't do that (because we didn't have all the books out at once--City of Glass had JUST come out when I picked up the series, and to me, it's just wrong to read the ending of the last book before anything else--sucks the fun out of everything), and that's the way Clare intended it to be read. Let's face it, Clare is sick and twisted in her writing; who the heck else would come up with a plot like this anyway? I'm one of the most conservative people I know, so don't think I condone incest, because I don't. But Clare WANTS to mess with your emotions and turn everything upside down, and Sebastian brought that back.You don't have to condone someone's behavior to feel bad for them, to pity them beyond belief. I'm not speaking for myself, because I think Sebastian should be allowed a bit of leniency because he never knew better (and I don't think people who knew nothing but awful, horrid wickedness should be judged by the same rules as those who grew up knowing right and wrong all along). I think the point of a character like Sebasitan IS that you FEEL BAD FOR HIM. To bring back my Phantom of the Opera reference (speaking from the play's perspective), you have to show him some pity. Someone who knew only one person, who whipped and beat them and taught them that goodness was evil and evil was goodness, and a father who hated them and wanted another son and hid him from the world and asked him to "seduce" his own sister to throw her off the track and pretend to be someone else and to kill and murder, and did I already mention that his FATHER WANTED HIM TO SEDUCE HIS SISTER? Valentine planted those feelings in Sebastian, however unintentional it is.
And I can feel myself getting worked up again, and maybe that's because I can't understand how someone could see nothing but disgusting evil in Sebastian--that's only the very surface of his character. And no interesting villain is ever made of pure evil; they're complicated and scary and distressed and maybe secretly wish they weren't like that. And that's why Sebastian is so powerful.
Everything about his story is horror and sadness. To repeat what I said when Ariane quoted me, Sebasitan is everything at once; he's a SHADOWHUNTER, he's angel and demon, and I can't believe he's pure evil. Because the angelic side of him is somewhere in there, fighting for something good, and he finds that good in Clary. I might be the only one who thinks this way, but I think he really is in love with Clary, or trying his hardest to be. Because someone who's pure evil and full of nothing but hatred, and who doesn't have a strong attachment to a girl DOESN'T begin a letter to her addressed, "My beautiful one".
My beautiful one is a line that destroys the evil image of Sebastian. He cannot possibly be all bad because he recognizes beauty in other people, he sees it in this person who he actually cares so much for that he can't possibly contain those feelings anymore and is SPILLING THEM OUT in a letter that he hopes to send. I've written letters, actual letters, to people before, but only when I have something that I cannot possibly express any other way; when it's too embarassing to say out loud to their face, or when I'm afraid of the response, but when I can't contain it, can't keep it inside me. And Sebastian started that letting, calling this girl his beautiful one. Maybe I look into these things too much; but dang, that was probably the most powerful insight to a character I've seen in a really long time, and the fact that Sebastian started that letter, to Clary or anyone else, says loads about him. And most of all, it screams that he has a heart that feels and bleeds, just like anyone else's, and he can't bear keeping it covered up.
I won't say trying to force himself on Clary was right, but that doesn't mean I don't understand why he did it. He tried the nice approach, he tried and she refused him, spit in his face, and can you imagine, can you just imagine putting your heart on the line and the person you love coming back with how much they hate you? Sebastian isn't the kind of guy to take the blow and cry himself to sleep over it. He's not like that. He's a DEMON, too, in addition to angel, and he's not the best judge of anger management. And so he tries to take, he gets mad because he tried being nice and was rejected, and maybe it totally broke his heart (the story isn't in his point of view, so how the heck would we know anyway), and he couldn't let himself be made a fool of. So he reacted, and it was wrong, what he did, tried to do, but I understand why. He couldn't cope with being humilated, and so he tried to humilate her. Maybe it's a messed up love he has for her, but I still think it's love, but I don't think he understands it. He doesn't understand any of it, and it scares him. It terrifies him.
Don't forget who Sebastian was. Rescuing Clary, giving his scarf and jacket to her when she was cold, taking care of her, "Do you think there's forgiveness for people like me?", adn everything everything else. Don't forget that he was good, and he screwed it all up in the end, but that doesn't mean it never existed. Just because someone you knew when they were little turned into a different person when they got older doesn't mean they were never that person. Just because you cut down a tree doesn't mean a tree was never there.
And I'll just continue with me theory, because I'm on a roll, and now I think I'm trying to sort out my feelings more than anything, but oh well. I hope you guys can sort out my stream of consciousness!
But I do think Sebastian loves Clary. I really really do. I think he craves love, and he felt what Jace felt, and the enormity of Jace's love for Clary must have spilled into him, and the fact that Clary started to almost like him, almost think he was kind of changing, and it sparked something in him (please don't make me talk about the letter again, because I might cry), and he didn't know what to do with it, he couldn't deal with it. It broke something in him, and he felt something new, and he tried to drown it, but I don't think he can. But even loving Clary can't destroy everything he's done, and I think maybe he's realized the same thing you all have--that even if he tried to repent of all the things he's done, the Clave would never let him live. Maybe he knows that whatever he does, they're going to kill him anyway, and maybe he thinks that he might as well not go willingly. Maybe he doesn't see the honor in that, in trying to make it right again, because from what the Clave would say and what most of you have said, there IS no forgiveness for someone like him. He believes that, so why try? Why try to be good if he can't even be forgiven? And the angel falls in defeat against the demon logic of that idea, but you know, doesn't it make sense? If you were him, wouldn't you think the same thing? Why just let them kill me, when I'm going to die either way?
He didn't ask for this. And that's what kills me (and what the heck, am I crying, curse you tears and feelings), is that everyone blames him, and it's just not his fault that he was here to begin with; he didn't ask for any of this, but this is what life handed him, and whatever he might have wanted, he has to deal with the hand he was dealt when he was born to a screwed up father. He didn't want any of it, but here he is, living with it anyway, and trying to do what he thinks is best. His father was evil and crazy and messed up, and WE can see that, but this is his daddy. This is the only man he ever had, the only person who ever loved him even a little (and Valentine barely loved him). He grew up thinking love was cruelty, and the father who loved him beat him senseless and scarred him and called it love. Ugh, it's the same reason kids who are abused when they're little by a figure of authority and "love" in their lives theoretically end up abusive themselves when they're older. It doesn't make what they're doing right, but at least you feel bad for them and you pity them and if you're like me, you end up weeping for them because you wish it wasn't like that. And Sebastian, poor Sebastian thinks cruelty is love, but that cruelty is also cruelty. All he KNOWS is cruelty, to express all his feelings.
And wow, I'm just going to stop because, like I said, I have a lot of feelings and they kind of spill out a lot. I'll just go now, but I really do want the people who pity or like Sebastian or whatever to know that's perfectly okay, because it makes just as much sense as hating every fiber of his being.
*dramatic exit*
This comment, more than anything else, makes me want to read Cassandra Clare.
Bless you Thalia and your beautiful way of putting my thoughts into words
I think it's because I don't have like, any friends online who like TMI (generally they downright hate Clare or the books), so I don't "type" out my feelings very much on it, and I just of...exploded in a rush of feelings and words.
But, whew, glad I got that off my chest.
Dude I completely understand. None of my friends are into it either and I get all of these feelings and it doesn't help that I also watch Sherlock, Doctor Who, Supernatural, and Once Upon a Time like seriously I have SO. MANY. FEELs.
Ugh, YES! The feels, it's like I'M DROWNING IN FEELS AND HERE'S AN EXPLOSION OF THEM ALL AT ONCE.
Thalia wrote: "Also, from what I've read of recent posts, I feel like everybody might need to simmer down a little. Trust me, I'm the last person to say this, but we are talking about a character. Maybe it's beca..."Oh dear.... you almost lost me there.
Valentine did know that due to the demon blood he added into baby Sebastian, his son has grown up into something more than just a powerful shadowhunter. Sebastian became a perfect evil, which scared Valentine and made him 'created' Jace with only angel's blood, and not a single drop of demon's blood.
If Sebastian is capable of having emotions, they are the dark emotions. He knows envy, of Jace, of the possibility that Valentine also loves Jace. He considers Clary as his next-to-perfect match (no one is actually perfect for him), for they share the same parents. He will not acknowledge other shadowhunters as equal to him, not even Jace with his angelic blood. Sebastian also deceived people, and was very good with that.
Sebastian is amazingly cruel and kill without feeling anything bad about it. Valentine killed people (children included) in order to create very powerful shadowhunters, but Sebastian kills because he has the power to kill. Because he is evil, and the demon's son.
Quoted from City of Lost Souls, Jace said
"I had so much doubt about myself, always, but
now I know the difference. Between myself and Sebastian. Between myself and Valentine. Even the difference between the two of them.
Valentine honestly believed he was doing the right thing. He hated demons. But to Sebastian, the creature he thinks of as his mother is one.
He would happily rule a race of dark Shadowhunters who did the bidding of demons, while the ordinary humans of this world were slaughtered for the demons’ pleasure. Valentine still believed it was the mandate of Shadowhunters to protect human beings; Sebastian thinks they’re cockroaches. And he doesn’t want to protect anyone. He only wants what he wants at the moment he wants it."
If anyone gets the reference now would be a good time to interject
*shrugs* All true, Nurlely. But bad doesn't cancel out good entirely. It just doesn't happen. Sebastian is arrogant, conceited, and full of himself. (So was Jace, when we first met him.) But he still has angel's blood, even if there's demon mixed in. I don't believe "perfect evil" exists, to be honest. There's conflict in everything, and I think that's true of Sebastian, as well as anyone else.And the point of my post was, in the beginning, that Sebastian-sympathizers should not be put down or be told they're disgusting for thinking that way. My personal feelings aside, that's still true.
Kaida, I don't. D: Maybe I do, and I'm just drawing a blank...
haha oh well, it was worth a shot! It's a way to see who all is part of the tumblr community (which is densely populated with fandoms that make tumblr users feel all the feels). XD
Thalia wrote: "*shrugs* All true, Nurlely. But bad doesn't cancel out good entirely. It just doesn't happen. Sebastian is arrogant, conceited, and full of himself. (So was Jace, when we first met him.) But he sti..."Sebastian was evil enough before he resurrected, brought back to life by Lilith. Even when he is actually the offspring of both shadowhunter parents and left with bit of good in him, everything about him for now is evil. The angel's feather he left to be found must be cut from the angel. He has no more mercy to be able to do that. He is totally different from Jace, whose arrogant-self was built in order to protect himself from being hurt.
Jace might confused himself of being similar to Sebastian, but that happened because he was possessed and attached to Sebastian.
As I quoted above, Jace is back to his real self, without the evil things shadowed and clouded his mind.
My feelings are pretty open and straight forward.I don't like Sebastian, I don't want him to live, I am slightly bothered when people do like him just because he is so twisted, I never liked the whole Clary-Jace-possible-sibling thing, and I don't picture Sebastian as an attractive guy. At all. The only semi-bad guy I've ever liked is Damon from The Vampire Diaries. And he isn't even bad!
Just saying...
Nurlely wrote: "Thalia wrote: "*shrugs* All true, Nurlely. But bad doesn't cancel out good entirely. It just doesn't happen. Sebastian is arrogant, conceited, and full of himself. (So was Jace, when we first met h..."Jace is nowhere near the stratosphere where Sebastian is. Seb is the coal and Jace is the diamond. Sure, he can be a self-absorbed jerk and that irritated me in the beginning but now, I think it's kinda cute, even though he is a little emotionally unstable.
Sebsatian...buddy...you fail of epic proportions with your act of 'love.' Someone buy the guy a dictionary so he can look up the term "brother" and what it entitles. Which number ONE does NOOOOT include
Shadowhunter Girl wrote: "Nurlely wrote: "Thalia wrote: "*shrugs* All true, Nurlely. But bad doesn't cancel out good entirely. It just doesn't happen. Sebastian is arrogant, conceited, and full of himself. (So was Jace, whe..."I understand why people like Sebastian, but for me, his character is quite dull, despite his handsomeness. He might be attractive enough to look at, but Sebastian is all about himself. I don't think he is a good person to conversate anything about, unless he disguises himself as someone else.
Damon is indeed my best bad, so good looking and skeptic character. As much as he is the antagonist, he is far from being an evil, even if he considers himself as one. I love Damon Salvatore.... hahahaha
My fave super bad character is Dexter Morgan.
I wasn't referencing his resurrection at all. In fact, I agree with you--Sebastian was entirely evil, and didn't have much good in him at all before he was connected to Jace. My theory is that his connection with Jace sparked the angel blood in him and made him feel something. It was different, and it confused him, and in this book, something inside him changed.Shadowhunter Girl, it's obvious you hate Sebasitan. So I'll just go ahead and quote myself:
"And the point of my post was, in the beginning, that Sebastian-sympathizers should not be put down or be told they're disgusting for thinking that way. My personal feelings aside, that's still true."
Thalia wrote: "I wasn't referencing his resurrection at all. In fact, I agree with you--Sebastian was entirely evil, and didn't have much good in him at all before he was connected to Jace. My theory is that his ..."To be honest, when Sebastian and Jace were attached, all I wanted to read is about Jace being free from him. I might have failed seeing the changes in him as you did, maybe because I felt disgusted with him after his confession that he felt as much as Jace did when Jace was with Clary.
My own theory is for Sebastian to come to his senses when he is stabbed by an angel sword. Hopefully he can meet Jocelyn and she can see the last of her shadowhunter son and recognise the good in him before Sebastian's last breath.
Yeah, I hope he gets a little sort of redemption--that would be my ideal situation. For him to die (probably), but at least get that little inkling of forgiveness he was looking for. I would absolutely die of happiness if it all ended that way, because that's the most realistic and nice ending.
Thalia wrote: "I think it's because I don't have like, any friends online who like TMI (generally they downright hate Clare or the books), so I don't "type" out my feelings very much on it, and I just of......"
oh don't be like that. You have us. : )
Yes, that's very true. (: Thank goodness!
Thalia wrote: "I wasn't referencing his resurrection at all. In fact, I agree with you--Sebastian was entirely evil, and didn't have much good in him at all before he was connected to Jace. My theory is that his ..."I haven't insulted anyone who likes him. If they do it's fine. It's just a matter of opinion and perspective. My perspective however is that just my mind can't wrap around how he could be liked. That's all.
I'm just letting you know that from the opposite side, it doesn't feel that way. A lot of the anti-Sebastian posts feel like put downs (not just you). I'm throwing it out there in general to ask everyone to think more about what they're saying before posting, and carefully thinking about whether they're being hurtful to those who disagree with them. No hard feelings intended.
Thalia wrote: "Yes, that's very true. (: Thank goodness!"We can all be your friend. Ariane is my friend and I remember she does like Sebastian.
I can knock Sebastian' skull and Ariane can hug him. That's fine. We can have our likes and dislikes and still be friends.
I'm glad! I said that because the majority of my friends who write reviews here hate TMI. (:
That can happen. Most of my friends in real life who also love books, don't care about TMI. I managed to persuade some of them to read the series... hahahahafriends are just like family. They can be annoying too. They can hate our beloved characters, as long as they like us as friends... ;)
Lets just agree that Magnus is perfect. End of.
Magnus is not perfect for Sebastian.
Not for Sebastian. Just in general.
Hahah! All aboard the Magnus/Sebastian ship!
Haha! Well that would be an "interesting" twist...
I find Sebastian really creepy but also an amazing villain. I think that jace is going to end up killing him in the 6th in a super intense battle scene with clary's help, an angel is stronger than a demon... Right? Also I really liked how Cassandra Clare basically started a knew series with the fourth and fith, new villain and plot and everything but they spun off of 1 2 and 3. Love the series.
Jack wrote: "Not for Sebastian. Just in general."I was teasing you.... since you forgot that the topic is about Sebastian ;)
Clarastein21 wrote: "...an angel is stronger than a demon... Right? ..."Should be that way. According to the story, Sebastian is way stronger than Jace, for he has the mother of all evil in him after he was resurrected, and was born with demon's blood.
Jace might be born with angel blood, but when he was possessed (thanks to super bad Lilith), his angel blood almost failed to keep him safe. Maybe the angel thing from the sword will make him stronger, but for now, Jace's power is not too stable. That is why he needs to get rid of it.
Jace and Clary might be strong enough to kill Sebastian. For me, Magnus is the strongest one to get rid of Sebastian. He was after all, the son of the dark (second in command)
Sebastian is a creep. He must pay for his actions and face harsh repercussions. That 'tis where I stand.
I think that was the point. For us to see him in a different light. Not because he will turn out good, but because this stuff happens in everyday life. People see others we know aren't good but we think maybe they could be. If we see the humanity in them then we start to think differently, but that doesn't mean they will change or not hurt us.Basically Cassie just likes to make us all have a bunch of feels at the end.
I don't feel anything towards Sebastian except anger. Why do all these people have to keep being brought back to life? I wish Cassie would stop defying the morals of death which is...to remain dead. (Except Jace. I'm glad she brought him back...twice. Dang, something bad NEEDS to happen to Clary. Jace keeps getting all the bad stuff.)
Sebastian never actually showed anything good in him. He was born evil. Valentine was even scared of his 'creation' and decided not to add any demon blood to his next 'project' (Jace).After the resurrection, Sebastian has become worse than before.
The human in him? Well... maybe his good look, inherited from his good looking parents.
That probably made him a very attractive young man.
A very attractive young man who kills without feeling any remorse.
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