City of Lost Souls
discussion
Sebastian Crushes...
I don't think he could have ever been a good brother. I think if he was raised human he'd just be a spittin image of Valentine. No one can guarentee his goodness as a human. He could've been a horrible person even without the d-blood. I never trusted him. When I started reading this book I thought, I'm going to jump into this book myself if he does anything twisted to Clary. This scared me because I had anticipated something of that level of revulsion happening! No author should feel impulsed to qwrite something like that. I nearly stopped reading just because of that. And what might he feel compelled to do in the next book? I'm afraid to find out. If it was Jace's feelings channeling through Sebastian, that's better but still. I don't know why Clare could just, for once, keep to normalcy and have Sebastian the controlling yet protective brother of Clary instead of the twisted creeper he is!
I don't mind him. Yes, what he did to Clary was unnatural and wrong-but i cant stop pitying him-he deserves some love. it at the end where i started disliking him (The whole business with the angel wings-gross!). and i said dislike, not hate. there's a difference.
I know there is a difference and I despise him, sorry. I'm looking at this from one of the characters's point of views. Sebastian hurt them in one way or the other and I cannot help but condemning him to die because I don't think he's worth it at the expense of innocent lives.
when i read city of glass i really didnt like Sebastian's character even when was pretending to be good he was really pushy and was a bit too nice and when he was himself again he was having a go at jace saying he was after his own sister when he did the same thing and then he insulted alec who did nothing to him and also top of all that killed max... but before reading this book i thought maybe he is like this because he didn't hav the right up bringing or maybe it was valentines influence and I was willing to give him a chance, and although he was controlling jace (which i hated) he was kinda funny at parts and seemed to care for clary but towards the end of the book i didn't dislike his character i HATED him.
Shadowhunter Girl, Clare writes like this. She always has something controversial that's supposed to make you seriously think, and I appreciate her characters aren't ever black and white, which I think is true for Sebastian as well as everyone else. I mean, even Valentine in his ridiculousness held Jace's body and apologized and sobbed because he'd had to kill who he thought of as a son. There's a weakness in every character, and that's the reason I love the series so much; something unexpected and tragic or twisted happens and then all my emotions get messed up. That's just what her stories are, and they've been that way since book one. I mean, would you have read the books at all if you hadn't already known Jace and Clary weren't siblings at all? It's an emotional roller coaster.It's also not fair to assume someone would be evil anyways. You can't judge that, because he wasn't given the chance. There's no reason to say "what if" about his upbringing, because there's no way for us to know. Do I think if Valentine hadn't poisoned his blood and Jocelyn would have loved him he wouldn't have been this way? Yeah, probably. But I can't know for sure; there's just no reason to speculate when there's no way to confirm.
Areefa wrote: "when i read city of glass i really didnt like Sebastian's character even when was pretending to be good he was really pushy and was a bit too nice and when he was himself again he was having a go a..." me niether. the most dusgusting part was when they kissed and clary didnt even know he was her brother. and when she found out, she was extra shocked/disgusted but sebastian wasnt. i was like: :/
Jenny wrote: "I'm torn between hating him and no hating him.I know what he's done and what he's planning to do is really terrible, but I can't help pitying the poor guy.
I can't help but think about what guy he..." yeah ur gonna find out something similar 2 ur comment in city of lost souls when jocelyn tries to kill him bcuz she TOTALLY h8s him
Thalia wrote: "Shadowhunter Girl, Clare writes like this. She always has something controversial that's supposed to make you seriously think, and I appreciate her characters aren't ever black and white, which I t..." but something that i really h8 about the book is that cassandra clare puts some life stories/flashbacks about every character after something bad happens good or bad
i know right even when clary kept reminding him that he was her brother he was ok with everything, wa made it worse was that he sed she can have jace but has to belong to him
call me crazy or whatever but i actually didn't care much for sebastian since we first met him in COG i mean i just thought he was one of those dudes that will make the book a sucky love triangle but instead he turned out to be this awesome/evil long lost brother nobody saw comin. i never trusted him once throughout COLS but i turned out to like him AFTER he kissed Clary. sick. i know! but u got to admit.... he's AWESOME at being evil even though very obvious 2 me. i do feel sorry for him cuz i do feel like he really IS lonely which is why i understood what he did to Clary. crazy as it sounds.... it was a very exciting and UNEXPECTED scene and i LOVED it! XD
Thalia wrote: "Shadowhunter Girl, Clare writes like this. She always has something controversial that's supposed to make you seriously think, and I appreciate her characters aren't ever black and white, which I t..."I know that no one can assume who someone might have been under different circumstances but either way, I've never liked the twisted things Clare includes. The Jace and Clary possible sibling thing almost made me stop reading. I skipped to the last book to insure that they weren't really related and it was only then that I was fine with finishing the series.
I don't find gross ideas cool or weird or awesome. I just find them gross and unnecessary.
And when Valentine hugged Jace after he died, I still thought that that was just mostly the demented side of Valentine sobbing for the son he, uh, killed.
Sorry if you don't agree with me but this is just my opinion and I don't think it will change. I love Cassandra Clare's book but some things are just too twisted for me to appreciate.
Oh if only Magnus had left him as a coat rack.He was so much better that way.
Mist .:.rockclimbingirl.:. wrote: "Okay, before the whole incestual incident, I was definitely Team Sebastian. But after that... well, let's just say that kind of turned me away from him :PHis and Jace's dialogue is hilarious"
Totally agree. I was the same. I still have a little part of me that feels sorry for him though :/ he didn't choose to have demon blood in him. . .
Thalia wrote: "NOTE:That being said.
I started to like Sebastian, too. I liked the way he interacted with Jace, and even with Clary. He treats he..."
yeah, i pitied him as well. He was really lonely. And it's not his fault Valentine experimented on him and thus turning him into more demon than human. I somehow hope he redeems himself ... or that his human soul is somewhere out there and finds some peace. You also kinda can't blame the guy for siding with the demons ... Lilith was probably the only one who showed him any act of love by trying to revive him ... so I kinda get him. Of course I still want his plan to destroy the human race to fail. But if i were Clary and Jace -- i wouldn't hate him so much.
Nicole wrote: "Oh if only Magnus had left him as a coat rack.He was so much better that way."Lol. :)
Shadowhunter Girl wrote: "Thalia wrote: "Shadowhunter Girl, Clare writes like this. She always has something controversial that's supposed to make you seriously think, and I appreciate her characters aren't ever black and w..."All I'm saying is I think your opinion would be different if you'd gone on the same emotional journey the majority of us have. But you didn't; you skipped around to make sure there was a decent ending, and you haven't had to question anything. If I were you, I probably wouldn't understand why anybody would like, or even tolerate, a character like Sebastian. But the majority of us were with Jace and Clary from the beginning, before there was a way to check to make sure the ending was the way we wanted. We had to follow them and have our hearts ripped out and understand the emotional trauma and tragedy associated with falling in love with someone and having that ripped away from you. It's a LOT easier to understand Sebastian's side if you've had to go through that. I can't let myself say I'm disgusted by everything he is, even though it is a little nasty, because by the same I got midway through City of Glass, I cared about Jace and Clary too much to care anymore. And that would make me one heck of a hypocrite to say it was okay for Jace and Clary, and not okay for Sebastian just because he's the bad guy. I just can't do that.
I didn't have to read the entire series perfectly unaware about Jace's and Clary's actual non-biological reltivity to one another to understand. I got through half of COA before I looked at that, after the Seelie Court, just to insure that this had some deeper and more meaningful purpose instead of her kissing her brother. Because I'm very cautious at the things I read and I will stop to prevent furthur continuations on really wrong things, for Sebastian as example. And Sebastian forced himself on Clary whereas Jace, did not. There's a big difference right there. Jace never physically overpowered Clary like Sebastian had. You may like him and feel sorry for him and have a clearer view through his perspective but I don't. And I'm perfectly fine with not understanding a character who I despise more than any other fictional male antagonist I've read so far. I just want him gone because even if there was hope for him, he has to pay for his crimes somehow. He had control. Everyone seems to try to defend him that it wasn't "his choice." Decisions-wise it was.
Again, I don't mean to come across as harsh or mean I just really don't like Sebastian.
Shadowhunter Girl wrote: "I didn't have to read the entire series perfectly unaware about Jace's and Clary's actual non-biological reltivity to one another to understand. I got through half of COA before I looked at that, a..."Yes, the stuff you said about Sebastian is true. And if he were 100% human, I'd hate him too. But that's just the thing: he's not. Remember when Amantis drank the demon blood - against her will - from the Infernal cup. She turned bad. Does that mean just because she "makes the choice" to side with the dark Shadowhunters, no one can say that's really her. So honestly I can't fault her anymore than I can fault Sebastian for the "choices" he makes. That's not to say he should not be killed if his death would save the world. If it's down to him and the world, by all means fire away. But like Jace, who was under Sebastian's compulsion; somehow this Sebastian is also under the compulsion of the demon blood that Valentine gave him as a baby. The difference is we saw Jace without the "compulsion" so we can make a difference to the Jace with the "compulsion". Before I judge Sebastian, I'd like to see him without the demon blood in him. If he's still as sadistic as he is then I can hate him. We all know that demon blood or blood magic in Clare's Shadowhunter world changes people. So definitely what Valentine did to him as a child changed Sebastian. Either way, it's Valentine I hate more - because then I can truly say it's his choice to turn into an evil overlord.
So I haven't read CoLS yet but I so want to and now I have an idea of what it's about, even though i'll hate myself later for knowing what to expect
I marvel at how I've been able to live without reading a single book in such a long time. Seriously I think it's a record or something I thought I was going to die without reading the next Cassandra Clare book and now that it's out I haven't been able to get it and start raging through the pages. And I'm still waiting on the clockwork princess
Ruthie wrote: "Shadowhunter Girl wrote: "I didn't have to read the entire series perfectly unaware about Jace's and Clary's actual non-biological reltivity to one another to understand. I got through half of COA ..."His character, who he is, what he does, is what I hate. I'm not including the "what if"s or "maybe is if he wasn't"s, I'm saying that over all, I absolutely hate him. Because we can never know what he would have been like so it's a pointless attempt to defend him by that perspective. (I'm not directing this at anyone in particular because I so do not wanna gang up on anyone voicing their own opinion.)
His being in the present state, I hate. Maybe if he was human, I'd like him. Maybe if he was shown compassion, I'd like him. Maybe if Jocelyn raised him, I'd like him. I know for a fact, that if he wasn't the masochistic, physical-threatening brother he is, I'd definitely hate him a LOT less.
But that's all it is. Maybe this, maybe that, maybe.
I'm talking about who he is now, the person he has become. And I despise that person, not the possibility of difference behind it.
Thalia wrote: "Shadowhunter Girl wrote: "Thalia wrote: "Shadowhunter Girl, Clare writes like this. She always has something controversial that's supposed to make you seriously think, and I appreciate her characte..."I think that's a bit harsh to make assumptions- and for the record, I DO like Sebastian-that's what I like about Cassie's Characters, they have both good and evil in the them.
The part that (and I know i've already said this but...) really really really started the whole hate-thing on him, was his sexual threats to his sister. That is probably the biggest thing out of why I hate him. You can tell me that if I hate him then I should hate Jace because Jace was thought to be related to Clary as well. Nope. He didn't sexually threaten her. Nu-uh. I don't really care if he wasn't "stable in the mind" or "saw things differently due to demon blood." The idea, just the concept, of him with her doing that just absolutely revolted me. I'm sorry if you find this offensive or if you like the character and you think I'm totally wrong, but that part almost made me stop reading the book.
Bad characters I normally don't like, but bad characters who hit on their sister (nobody remind me about starwars with Princess Leah and Luke because the didn't do anything) and threaten them. Wrong. Bad. No one should be able to come up with an excuse. The only one I can think of is that it was Jace's feelings through him. And if it wasn't? No character is perfect (besides Will, I think) and there will always be flukes to them but this ridiculous! I expected Cassie to have more class than that!
--- I know, I know, Jace and Clary but I knew they weren't actually related. She wouldn't do that. This time we knew that they were definitely related above all else and Sebatian whips out the sexual harrassments. No, thank you, Cassie, I don't enjoy reading this. That part ruined the book for me.
Whoa whoa whoa! I feel like this is heating up, and that is not what any of us wanted.I thought I already said this, but I think my point of view is becoming muddled; I don't like Sebastian. Because I can sympathize with him and I pity him doesn't translate to liking him. I like who he was when he drank hot chocolate with Clary and asked if he could earn forgiveness; I like the guy who joked around with Jace, and THAT gave me an insight to who he might have been had he not been totally screwed with by Valentine. I live in a state of what-if statements when it comes to characters and stories because...that's just how I am. I'm just not capable of looking at what the author or creator has given me and not try and see past it to something deeper, even if that's not what they intended. I do that with everything, and I just can't take things at face value. That's just...not who I am. And I think that's where we're differing most, that I'm looking at other circumstances, the 'what-ifs', and you're just looking at what was given. If I did that, I'd sure as heck hate him, too.
I don't agree or condone anything he's done. It was all wrong, it was all bad. But I can't discard the fact that he isn't human, that he wasn't raised to be decent, that he hasn't known anything else but sickness and violence. I can't throw that away. And maybe it's all speculation, but I'm just unable to discard all of it. Did I think it was sick that he was trying to sleep with Clary? Heck yeah I did. I do. Just because I try to understand why and pity him because of his utter and complete loneliness doesn't mean I like what he did. Sebastian's "fluke" isn't that he thinks he loves Clary; it's his utter, all consuming, suffocating loneliness. And because of that, he does whatever he can to be not alone. Possessing Jace, so he could just have someone to talk to. Hitting on Clary because she was the only one there. I think he throws around the words "brother" and "sister", but I don't think he understands what they mean, that it runs deeper than just words. I think he just wants to stop being lonely, and while that doesn't make anything he did okay, it makes me understand the why, even if I completely disagree.
Mostly this is in response to message #127, since I'm mostly just talking about using "what ifs" versus not including them in the overall opinion. I found it interesting, since I know for a fact that, as a person, it's just not in my character to not speculate and adventure outside what the author/creator has given, and I think that's why we're thinking so differently.
Ruthie, I really like what you said about Amatis. I hadn't even thought about that! But you're right; it's practically the same thing. Evil person forces demon blood into another person, teaches them what to do/how to do it--BAM! evil Shadowhunter. The only difference is we know Amatis was good and fine before the demon blood and Sebastian's situation is still full of what ifs. But if demon blood can do all that to a perfectly sweet lady like Amatis? Then that just increases my suspicion that if Sebastian had been raised normal, he would have been just fine.
I feel like I started some big argument; before I posted, everything was really mellow and easy going, and now it's like some big life discussion. Sorry for antagonizing anyone; that's not what I was trying to do! ^^;
I think he just wants someone to understand him.If you read the short story from Sebastian's perspective, it explains how Valentine wanted Jocelyn and Clary to live with them after he took over the world or whatever he was planning. Sebastian hated Jocelyn because she rejected him. He cared about Valentine, but Valentine still picked Jace over him. The reason he wanted Clary was because she was the only one who had yet to reject him(because Jocelyn was the one who ran away before she was born). He thought she would be more like him because they share the same parents, and so he thought she would understand him. (The same could be said for Jace, thus the whole Team Evil in CoLS) Maybe he doesn't understand what love is, but he's lonely and knows he wants someone to love him. And as creepy as it sounds,from his perspective Clary seems to be his only option.
I liked Sebastian in the beginning of CoG and now as creepy as he is, I like him as a villain. Cassandra Clare has a way of writing where she'll make you hate the character through their actions(I.E. Will insulting Tessa) But then she'll show you you insight on why they do the things they do, and now its all just heartbreaking. Sebastian's evil but it's not entirely his fault. As the villain of the series, he's one of my favorite characters.
On a side note, apparently Cassandra Clare's going to write a story about Sebastian having a kitten. Also he had house that traveled through dimensions( Anyone else imagine Howl's moving castle?) So all I'm saying is, stop hating on Sebastian. Sebastian is my home biscuit!
i dont like him he kissed his siter gross!
I think that it doesn't really matter that he has demon blood inside of him, I don't think that thats what made him be evil, maybe. It could've been the fact that Valentine wipped him when he was boy or the way he raised his own kid, to be hateful. He just feels alone. If you guys happen to read the special addition book from walmart, you'll understand. It also tells you how he killed the real Sabastian.
THANK YOU, HALEY! Sorry, just seems that most people who respond to me defend Sebastian instead of actually agreeing with my perspective. I dont want to antagonize anybody either. If he hadn't been injected with d-blood, I probably would have liked him. But he was and he is someone completely different because of that and I choose not to pity him because I think pity can be directed in a more worthy direction. (I'm not saying you shouldn't, no, no, I'm saying just me, personally.)
I read it, I found it graphic and I loved the real Sebastian so that does not change my opinion about him because THAT sebastian seemed EPIC!
And I must add one more thing.... I always loved Will even when he said that to Tessa because I knew there was a reason beyond what he was saying. I don't see how someone could hate him there when he just expressed a fear when he thought Tessa was dead.
i liked sebastian in the 4th book when he was nice to clary but he does seem pretty Epic if you no what i mean!( just me personally)
i love will too! :) i cant wait till the next book comes out it will be very good she is a very good writer!:)
Haley wrote: "i liked sebastian in the 4th book when he was nice to clary but he does seem pretty Epic if you no what i mean!( just me personally)"In the fourth book..? Sebastian was only in the last little bit of City of Fallen Angels and he wasn't even awake...Sorry, I'm just trying to figure out what you mean. ^^;
Shadowhunter Girl wrote: "And I must add one more thing.... I always loved Will even when he said that to Tessa because I knew there was a reason beyond what he was saying. I don't see how someone could hate him there when ..."I don't hate Will. But I was upset with him when he broke Tessa's heart on the roof. But that was back before you understood why. How could anyone hate Will?(aside from the ducks) I ♥ Jem and Will. They both reach home biscuit status!!!
I like Jem I just don't want him with Tessa. We didn't understand why but we understood that there was a reason behind the why that provoked him to say those things. And I <3 Will. He's awesome and I hate ducks, too! Ever since a swan chased me when I was five. Horrible beasts!
And I know swans aren't ducks but they are in close enough association! And I was attacked by a duck as well so I stand corrected:)
Spoiler!I do not want Sebastian to survive in the end because, frankly, he's disturbed. But I LOVE him as the villain! He's twisted and cruel but he hides it behind a witty and easygoing demeanor. The incest scene with Clary made him that much scarier because there is no turning back for him now. Even if he wanted to, he could never turn good because he has done (or tried to do) something that is unforgivable.
Sebastian is officially my favorite villain.
I agree with you kaida he is my favourite villain i love him i really want there to be some good in him but I know there's not enough but I do love his wit!
But why can't bad guys be appropriate? Him hitting on Clary was just...just...ewww.
I felt bad for Sebasitian. It was NEVER his fault that he had been tainted with demon blood. The father, Valentine, is at fault and I honestly would like to shove that man's head down a toilet (Yeah, I know he was finished off in the third book but still) and then I would like to hang him off of a flag pole and watch him sit there to think about what he did. Probably wouldn't work but I think it would be entertaining. XDSebastian probably would be a better guy if he handn't had his father but a differet one and it had just been his mother raising him, having never to been left with this demonic nature of his, he wouldn't be doing any of this.
Ummm...sorry, but I must disagree. Chances are, he still would have been screwed up a bit since he would have been raised, regardless, by the psychotic Shadowhunter/demented scientist gone more demented Valentine. He would have been weird either way. Maybe his isolation did drive him to be more ... closer to Clary but even without the demon blood, isn't it possible he still would have grown up with a similar perspective, one that mirrored Valentine's? I think it is fair to say that not all of this was the fault of an injection.
Yes I like him too!! Except the whole incest thing, he's one of my favourite villains(:
Shadowhunter Girl wrote: "Ummm...sorry, but I must disagree. Chances are, he still would have been screwed up a bit since he would have been raised, regardless, by the psychotic Shadowhunter/demented scientist gone more dem..."If you had fully read my statement before I mentioned that most of this was Valentines fault and if he had never had valentine as a father he would have been raised by his mother and have probably turned out different.
...maybe but maybe not. Who knows? Maybe Mortmain is a genetic link to Valentine which might cause some type of generation pass-on that would result in Sebastian still having a similar view as Valentine's. Besides, we can't even gaurantee that even had his mother been part of his upbringing, his father would still probably have held the other part. Which would still possibly result in Sebastian becoming a nut job. Unless, the situation had been where Valentine would have died or something. But those theories can be made on every book in the world. Who knows? Maybe his mom would have stayed had Valentine not pre-mutated his son. Regardless, I personally do not like Sebastian and he has done too many horrible things to the point where I can feel sorry for him. I feel sorry for the boy he might (and that is a very slim might) have been, who Valentine basically murdered.
I like him too! Till City of Lost Souls I hated him, but them we see another side of him and I understood that all he ever wanted is to be loved, and he thought that maybe Clary could do that. But he doesn't understand that he can't make someone to love you, so he went with all the incest thing.
I can't help but see a heart in him somewhere, no matter how tainted the rest of it may be. A guy like him doesn't start notes with My beautiful one, without having some love in him somewhere, even if it's for the wrong person.
He is a good villain, but that's the only good thing about him. ;)
I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!
Shadowhunter Girl wrote: "...maybe but maybe not. Who knows? Maybe Mortmain is a genetic link to Valentine which might cause some type of generation pass-on that would result in Sebastian still having a similar view as Vale..."Children can't be born evil unless taught or tainted by the parents who raised them. Matter of fact is, if Valentine hadn't have existed at all and Sebastian would have been created by his mother and someone else who wasn't evil, he probably wouldn't be this way. All I got to say.
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I know what he's done and what he's planning to do is really terrible, but I can't help pitying the poor guy.
I can't help but think about what guy he could've been if it wasn't for Valentine.
I was warming up to him since he seemed to be really kind towards Clary and then he goes and tries to rape her in his twisted idea of love.
In other circumstances, he could have been a good brother.