City of Lost Souls
discussion
Sebastian Crushes...
Shadowhunter Girl, I haven't been able to read the short story with the two Sebastians, unfortunately. But Jace has also said before that he's proud of Clary; being proud of someone doesn't have anything to do with familial feelings or relationships. My older brothers have said they're proud of me before and they also say they're proud of their spouses, if they accomplish something important to them. Proud doesn't equal family feelings.And yes, I agree with you about maybe feeling some of Jace's feelings, and I'll tie that back to his being jealous of Jace. Unfortuantely, we can't say for sure if they were actually Sebastian's feelings or not, since we haven't seen Sebastian interact with Clary now that the connection is gone. But then again, when it was gone for that brief moment, if you reread it knowing how he feels, you can see traces, even when Jace is yelling at him.
Alexia, hahah, thanks. (: I'm kind of over emotional about fictional characters sometimes! But I think Sebastian deserves a break.
Oh wow, there are more replies than I thought! Evidently, there's a page two!Miranda, wow, I'm glad you agree! Honestly, I was expecting everyone to respond to me like, "omfg what kind of freak are you you like Sebastian?!" I really just want to hug him. XD I've always kind of been like that, pitying and hoping for the best for characters everybody else seems to hate. Even some twelve years since my Phantom obsession began, my parents still don't fully understand why I care about him so much!
And honestly, that's the only place where the Phantom comparison ends. I want Phantom/Christine to happen. Sebastian, I'm thinking, will probably either die or end up totally alone (which happened to Phantom anyway OTL), and I don't promote him with who he "loves". Everything else is practically identical.
And I mean, sometimes I'll just sit and cry and feel like my insides are ripping apart when I think about Phantom. Phantom has done that to me for YEARS. And when I got to chapter nineteen, 'Love and Blood', I sat there for a little while, just trying to sort out my feelings. I couldn't explain what it was that was going on inside me! And finally I was like, 'OH NO, IT'S THE PHANTOM PARADOX FOLLOWING ME INTO TMI, WHYYYYYYYY CASSANDRA CLARE', because once there's a character I can relate back to Phantom, I'm stuck with them for the rest of my emotional existence.
Seriously, sixty years from now, when my grandkids ask what kind of stuff I liked as a kid, I'll probably be like, 'Noooooo, Sebastian, noooooooooo.' ;-;
Thalia wrote: "Oh wow, there are more replies than I thought! Evidently, there's a page two!Miranda, wow, I'm glad you agree! Honestly, I was expecting everyone to respond to me like, "omfg what kind of freak a..."
Hahaha- "Nooo sebastian noooo! " lol
I was thinking that when I made this Topic that everyone would be like "WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM?!!!" too but THANK GOD SOME PEOPLE PITY SEBASTIAN TOO!!!!!
Hehe
Hahah, I know! I was reading all the comments, just like, 'djk vhevnrh UNPOPULAR OPINION TIME!' (:
Thalia wrote: "Hahah, I know! I was reading all the comments, just like, 'djk vhevnrh UNPOPULAR OPINION TIME!' (:"Hehehe !
Lol I'm with u there!
It's not a question of whether he's a jerk or not. It's whether it's his fault, his choice, to be that way, or if he really doesn't know any better.
well i guess he is being controlled by valentine so i guess i can cut him some slack
Well...it's not that he's being controlled. Valentine isn't forcing him to do anything (since Valentine is dead). I think he chooses to be that way because he doesn't realize/understand there is ANOTHER way to be. He is the way he is because of Valentine and the way he was raised and treated, and half because of the demon blood "burning away his humanity". It's a combination of a lot of things that made Sebastian what he is, the least of all his choice to be the way he is.
yeah but sebastian chose to follow valentine's orders when he couldve walked away from it all
Would you walk away if you had nothing to walk away to? If nobody knew you existed, your own mother hated you for nothing you ever did except existing? I probably would have stayed with Valentine, too, for that little bit of love he offered.
Joceyln doesn't hate Sebastian, she hates what's in him; what Valentine did to him. I know no one can pin his existence and his poison-injection on him. That's all Valentine. But did he have control over killing Max. Yeah. Did he have to do what he did to Jace when Valentine was dead? No. So, I will pin many things on Sebastian as his fault. Aguy like that isn't worth saving. If he didn't have D-blood in him, that does not neccessarily mean that he would've been a great guy. He still could have been on the wrong side, raised with Valentine's perspective. Do I pity him? I pity the child he might have been if the circumstances did not involve his father being a clave-breaking, angel-imprisoning, demon-injecting father. I hope Jace is the one to end him.
And even if I did pity him, the only compassion that could be shown to him, is a quick ending. After all he's done, he can't just be turned good and set free. He will either:a. Destroy the world as planned.
b. Be killed.
c. Get the poison burned out, caught by the Clave, then killed.
It's not as if he has any option at a regular Shadowhunter life. He committed, like, a thousand crimes which he will have to reprecuss for. I don't want him to be turned good. The book would have no emotional or realistic depth if he did. Hah! The irony would be if Jocelyn was the one to kill him.
Anyone is worth saving is they're willing to try and you're willing to help them. Nobody is beyond saving.Again, Sebastian said he didn't mean to kill Max. He said that, and I believe him.
It's not the individual acts. Yes, he did those things. But he did them because of the mindset he was given as a child, that was drilled into his head, until he turned into a war machine. "These hands play only the instruments of war." He says it like he regrets it, but the way he asks Clary if there's forgiveness for people like him leads me to believe he thinks he's past saving, too. Which is really sad. He may not have been great, but I also don't have the heart to blame someone who was taught all wrong for things they "should" have known better than to do. It's easy for us, as people who grew up with (probably) a loving parent(s) and all the rules of right and wrong given to us by the government and school to say, "Well, he should have known better". But without all that learning and teaching we got as kids? We might have been just the same, if all we were taught was hatred and violence.
I'm not saying he would have been great. I'm saying he never got the chance to know what kind of person he would have been on his own.
And how would it have no emotional depth if Sebastian learned from his mistakes? I think that's what would rip my heart out the most, since, like you've said, he doesn't have anymore options. I think he'll probably be killed in the next book, since chances are the characters aren't going to see him the way I do. Everyone will be bloodthirsty for his ending, and I think he tried to make amends, death or not, that would be the most realistic and heartbreaking ending than just stabbing him through the heart and being done with it.
The fact is that Sebastian has committed so may crimes that he had been in control of. He wasn't forced to do any of those things. Besides, he thought his dad was very wrong on nearly everything which shouldn't provoke him to instead burn down the world. I don't think that there is any hope for a boy injected with demon blood.
As for his "accident" I don't believe that either. What? Sebastian, as smart as he is, just found no way around the little boy so instead, killed him? That isn't my definition of an accident. If he had any sliver of humanity in him, he would have found some way to spare Max. But no.
And how can someone learn from mistakes that involve murder, rule-breaking, demon-summoning, new-Cup-creating, evil-Shadowhunter making, and sis-hitting mistakes? He just, doesn't do it again? That problem could also be solved if he was killed. He can't rebuild what he has already destroyed and he can't receive compassion from those who's loved ones he has casted into darkness and death.
Thalia wrote: "Anyone is worth saving is they're willing to try and you're willing to help them. Nobody is beyond saving.Again, Sebastian said he didn't mean to kill Max. He said that, and I believe him.
It's ..."
DIdn't Sebastian say that he meant to just do to Max what he did to Isabelle, but instead he hit too hard or something? I can actually imagine him being upset about that! :( I feel really bad for him :(
So many people don't like him, and in the book, he has absolutely NO ONE on his side that actually THINKS like him, other than Lilith, and she isn;t even human! I think he needs a good friend :(
He didn't mean to kill Max. He said that he only meant to knock him out, like with Isabelle, but didn't measure his strength. He's never dealt with kids, so I doubt he was thinking he'd end up seriously hurting him.Where you're getting hung up is 'Sebastian did a lot of bad things'. Yes, but I don't think he knew they were bad. It'd be like having a teacher saying you had to do a project on poster board and you only wrote a paper, without realizing there were other rules; only more extreme in Sebastian's case. Haven't you ever gotten in trouble and didn't realize you were doing anything wrong?
I believe anyone can learn from their mistakes. I believe it takes a lot of work and a lot of repentence on their part, but that doesn't mean it's impossible.
And like Marie said, the only one who shows him any compassion is Lilith. Of course he'd want to go with her plan since she's the only one who seems to not hate him. :/
And Jocelyn DOES hate him. A mother wouldn't say she should have killed her baby when he was still an infant without hating him.
Joceyln doesn't hate Sebastian, she hates what's in him; what Valentine did to him. I know no one can pin his existence and his poison-injection on him. That's all Valentine. But did he have control over killing Max. Yeah. Did he have to do what he did to Jace when Valentine was dead? No. So, I will pin many things on Sebastian as his fault. Aguy like that isn't worth saving. If he didn't have D-blood in him, that does not neccessarily mean that he would've been a great guy. He still could have been on the wrong side, raised with Valentine's perspective. Do I pity him? I pity the child he might have been if the circumstances did not involve his father being a clave-breaking, angel-imprisoning, demon-injecting father. I hope Jace is the one to end him.
i totally agree with you
Thalia wrote: "He didn't mean to kill Max. He said that he only meant to knock him out, like with Isabelle, but didn't measure his strength. He's never dealt with kids, so I doubt he was thinking he'd end up seri..."THAT IS SO SAD! No wonder he doesn't think of Jocelyn as his mother. :( I understand why she does;t like him, but it is a bit extreme to actually, you know, KILL a baby, even if he has demon blood in him. i think that if he had more compassion or love in his life, he'd have more of a conscience to tell him that what he was doing is WRONG, even if he does have demon blood, so that at least he would have more of an IDEA that it was wrong. I would not feel bad for Sebastian if he had love in his life, and had EXPERIENCED people caring about him enough that he would know what was right or wrong. He would still have that demon blood telling him to do wrong, but he would had that other part that says "thats WRONG!". But he doesn't HAVE that, so he just doesn;'t KNOW. But I thing that he can still learn that what he's doing is wrong, even though it would take longer for him to realize.
I don't think it was the demon blood that burned him out so much as Valentine's encouraging demented and violent behavior. Those two combinations helped destroyed him, and he didn't stand a chance.
Thalia wrote: "He didn't mean to kill Max. He said that he only meant to knock him out, like with Isabelle, but didn't measure his strength. He's never dealt with kids, so I doubt he was thinking he'd end up seri..."But imagine it with Jocelyn's point of view. Your an expecting mother, really excited; you got a good home, a providing husband. Should be great. And then you have this little boy with black irisis with demon blood running through his veins and incapable of feeling any compassion towards you because your husband has injected him with poison, extinguishing his humanity.
Jocelyn hates Valentine and Sebastian is a lot like Valentine, even though he would never admit it.
And how do we know Valentine was demented and violent? It could have been that Sebastian was so out of control that Valentine had no choice but to take drastic actions.
If he did become good, he'd pobably want to die. Who could live with all of the burdens he has caused? And, remember in COG? Sebastian ACTED good. He can differentiate between caring and not. He has tricked people with it!
Again, imagine if you were Jocelyn. Or anybody else Sebastian hurt. Maybe Jace, who Sebastian had taken his free will away, just snatched it and dangled it over his face. Wouldn't you want him gone? If you were Isabelle and this guy had killed your brother, would you honestly continue to feel compassion for him?
If he never became good, he should be gone because all he's doing is tearing through families, leaving them shredded, and not even looking back! He knows what he's doing and he continues to do it.
There's no proof that Sebastian would have been much better if he hadn't have had that blood put in him! He could have become a second Valentine!
From Jocelyn's point of view, this isn't her son. This is a boy who has the exterior of the baby she lost but is full of poison who cannot be reclaimed.
I really LOVE Sebastian! (Not because MY boyfriend is called Sebastian :P)He's such a twisted and amazing character, he just doesn't have that love in him anymore. His mother 'does' love him (every mother has a place in her heart for her children, even if they are hanging with the devil). His father died, which is sad, every kid would take a turn for revenge right? I mean i would want to finish what my dad started, even if it was the end of the world. So long as i know i am doing it for a cause, to make my parents happy.
Clary should show her brother some respect too, even though he is insane, but he IS her brother. She cannot just say he isnt, he needs love, other wise there is no way our dear Sebastian can take a turn for the light.
And about the Sebastian kissing Clary scene, that wasn't icky. That was Jace through Sebastian, trying to communicate with Clary. He has several times said that: you are mine. AND. You belong with me and all that stuff.
So please dont think it is disgusting!
(brothers and sisters kiss in real life too, i mean, you love your family right? But i know it shouldnt be in a lusty way. Oh well!)
lets just let Cassandra make up her own mind.
AND DON'T KILL SEBASTIAN! GIVE HIM SOME LOVE!
I am so glad that there are so many other people out there that like Sebastian this much, i agree with the comments made above-well, at least the ones that pity him, because i do! Like everyone stated above, he didn't know how to love and live-Valentine never taught him that and i also feel so bad for him, i mean no-one LOVED him, for gods sake-I'd go crazy and depressed too if nobody loved me in return, i'd feel so alone-this is what i love about Cassandra Clare's writing, you can see both sides of a character and that lets you decide which side you can be on-the side that pities the character or the side who despises them. It gives you an opinion-and i love that! i felt so sad when he like, said that he didn't try to kill Max and it was only an accident! and he was only like that towards Clary (The whole kissing her thing,) because he wasn't sure WHAT he was meant to do.(it's not like he'd ever had a girlfriend before-or ever met a girl that he had slight feelings toward. And I like how everyone is using that opportunity to state what side they are really on, it gives people personality and depth-they don't follow the crowd and they lead others in believing their side of the story. (And i know that i am rambling on a bout random stuff-But oh, well. it's what gives me personality, too.) But it's not like Sebastian dosen't WANT to love-It's that he was never taught HOW to love.
Clary should show him respect? If I was Clary, I think i'd kill him. If he harmed any person I loved I'd have been on his tail with Glorias. Nobody loves me so lets burn down the world, maybe that will change their minds. And I don't think he wants to love I just think he wants others to act as if they did to him. But even that I fail to believe. And with the whole kissing scene, even if it was Jace's feelings channeling through Sebastian, that still grosses me out. Ew. Wrong, wrong wrong. And the worst part is that I was expecting it! I knew it from the moment she got there! Well, this sicko has already killed a kid, torn another's free will away, why not continue to do disturbing things and hit on his sister? In COG, Clary cared about him, and Sebastian knew that. And look what he did to her? Yeah, he's just a kill-happy, very inappropriate man who I absolutely dislike.
Like Alexia said, I think he wants to love/be loved, but he doesn't know how. And do you think he ever had a society around him or his father ever said, 'Now, it's totally not okay to hit on the sister you've never met.' Nope. In fact, part of Valentine's plan was to use Sebastian to make Clary believe he loved her. Valentine told him to get close, make her trust him, and then to kiss her outside the Fairchild manor house.With that in perspective, his father ENCOURAGING him to show those kinds of feelings to her, added on top of Jace's mutual feelings running around inside him, I don't think he connects "socially unacceptable" to what he's feeling. On on his logic, "what blood can be mixed with what; we're already experiments". I think he's just really confused.
I mean...I didn't think about that before, but Valentine encouraged him to have a relationship with Clary when he was "pretending" to be Sebastian Verlac. No wonder the kid doesn't know what the heck he's doing.
Yes, it's Valentine's fault but he's already dead, nothing more can be done to him. Even if he did encourage the Clary thing, Sebastian still did things to her even after Valentine was killed and his wishes with him. Besides, the only thing Sebastian agrees on with Valentine is the corruption of the Clave. Sebastian still went to Clary regardless of his disagreement with his father.For me, there's just absolutely nothing that reveals any hope of him being saved. Of being human. He's killed to many people, people who nobidy (not Valentine, not his mother, not anyone) forced him to kill.
He's fictional, which only intensifies my lack of compassion for him. I don't think more lives should be lost just to save a boy whose already been condemned to die, by, well, everyone.
At first I kind of liked him. Then in CoLS, after what he tried to do to Clary, I couldn't take it anymore. He's a jerk. A cruel psychotic one. That's the truth. He's beyond repair. There's no point in liking him now. I can't stand him at all. He's a creep.-
Even after someone is dead and gone, they continue to influence you for the rest of your life, especially if you loved them.Sebastian didn't disagree with Valentine in City of Glass. He only realized he had a different vision after he was cut free of his father.
I'm just not capable of not seeing the humanity in him. Just because everyone hates you doesn't mean you lose your worth. It doesn't mean that you have nothing in you worth saving. It means nobody is willing to try. And fictional or not, I still feel the need to defend him.
Actions speak louder than words. No, people who dislike you does not automatically decrease your worth but to kill so many people and hurt without caring kind of does. Would you rather save an innocent boy's life, or save a boy's whose duration of life has ended so many others?
It's too early for me to tell. Two people have died by his hand, and I don't have a clue wheher they were in fact accidents or not. I don't know if he meant serious harm to either person he killed. And without knowing that, I can't tell you what's going to happen. It's like protecting your freedom through war. Is that freedom worth the lives you'll have to take in order to defend what you think it best for those you care about and the world around you? For me, I'm looking at the picture too big, and I can't give you a solid answer.
I'm not talking about Max. Okay, let's say that Sebastian had to kill one other person before becoming good and that person just so happens to be a little boy. Would you sacrafice the boy, an innocent life, to rid Sebastian of demon blood?I wouldn't. I'd prefer Sebastian gone instead of the boy's life. The boy is an example of innocence opposed to Sebastian's lack of humanity, decency, and compliance who would, which I doubt many could deny, give up that boy in an instant without a moment's hesitation.
It is that main reason why I hate him.
I don't think it's fair to ask someone to pick between two lives. And lik I said, I don't know. It's too early for me to know. I don't know if Sebastian will change enough to where he wouldn't be able to pick himself over the boy. I don't believe anyone selfish enough to beg they be picked over another person in a question of life vs. life is worthy of being saved over the other. That doesn't mean Sebastian only.
The fact is that I've read enough about Sebastian to know that he sin't capable of sacrafice. If he was in a position to either kill or die, regardless of who he's killing, he'd kill. Valentine never taught him to just kill. It wasn't a "if you're ever in a situation that feels like a predicament, kill whoever you want." Sebatian's method is, "no matter who stands in my way, wheather it's a kid or anyone else, I will kill them. Whatever it takes to dispose of them, even if they pose no threat."
Awwwww....In the beginning I totally bought into Seb's story, and was beginning to fall for him, but then in the end I'm like NO! That is not allowed!!! Oh dear Sebastian, what have you done. Nice to know that other people feel sorry for him! My younger sister and my friends think I'm insane.
I don't think it's possible to have read enough about a character to know who they are or what they do or why until their story is over. I have to wait until his story is over to know how I really feel about him.
SPOILER: (Just about everywhere) Thank god it wasn't just me who started to like him. I actually thought he was changing... at least a little. He seemed like he actually cared I guess, but I guess that’s what makes Cassie such a good writer. He sounded so sincere when he told her, after he saved her life, that he did it because she was his sister. That was heart warming. And he was hot, (in my head) which always plays a huge factor :) I honestly liked him, but… oh well, I guess. I almost threw my kindle after the whole "You belong to me" thing and tried to kiss her… again. I thought we had gotten past the whole “I want to make out with my sibling” thing. I was like... wtf?? This boy has physiological problems that need to be taken care of. Time to see a specialist.And I know this isn't Sebastian related, but really Clary? Really? WHY DID YOU STOP JACE? HE WAS TRYING TO HELP!! If that’s what he wanted, then let him do it. The whole world is not about you, love. I’m sorry, but that really pissed me off. I needed to get that off my chest.
I wouldn't call anyone insane who likes Sebastian, although I do find it hard to show sympathy for him. He's done too many things that I could not forgive if I was a character in the book. And I believe that you can know a character pretty well by chapter 5. I don't think you need the whole background check to really get a character.
Sebastian, I found, was just a kill-happy , demon-injected guy who twisted the word wrong into a completely different dimension. If one life doesn't matter to him, why should his life matter to others?
I just want him gone. (This is gonna sound bad but I don't care. It's not as if Sebastian deserves lightness) Here it is: I think/ want Jocelyn to be the one to kill him.
Do you mean chapter five or book five? Because I think it's really impossible to know a character by chapter five. XDBut technically, for Sebastian, it's only like...book two. Since he was just in CoG and passed out a lot in CoFA. So I'm just waiting out the time to see what the final verdict on his character will be. (:
Kiki, as for Clary not letting Jace go...I don't think I could have watched the guy I loved walk out to his certain death either. I would have wanted to save him, keep him, even if it was selfish. Because living without that person would feel like drowning and would be near impossible. Clary realized her mistake later and did her best to redeem it, but her action in that scene was realistic and believable. If she just said, "Okay Jace, do what you want," I would have thrown down in the book in fruststration and demanded why Clare allowed such an easy out.
I totally agree with you on the Jace and Clary thing. I was just saying that I got a pretty good idea of Sebastian's character so far. I never really trusted him. In COG I liked him but I always felt something....off I guess. And I wasn't referring to MI, I was referring to most books, that you can get a pretty good handle on characteristics by chapter five. Depending on length.... oh, never mind :D
Thalia wrote: "Like Alexia said, I think he wants to love/be loved, but he doesn't know how. And do you think he ever had a society around him or his father ever said, 'Now, it's totally not okay to hit on the si..."Thank You.
i dont even know if i like or h8 sebastian. i mean, he is Clary's brother and all that, (sorry just cant help giving spoilers out) but on the flip side, he is basically evil bcuz he was on valentine's side and also lilith said that he was basically her son b4 she died because she is the one who gave her blood 2 valentine 2 give it 2 clary's mother (jocelyn) 2 drink so that sebastian could be part demon. that's why he has been acting like the evil guy he has been lately. jace just THINKS he has demon blood since valentine raised him and sebastian, but just in different houses.
Thalia wrote: "Yeah, my other best friend HATES this series. She thinks it's terribly written and really immature, but I'm glad my other one is just as in love as I am, hahah.Unfortunately, I think Sebastian pr..." actually, its a good series, keep reading them, and u would find out what we the mortal instrumenterz r talking 'bout :D
Not really I mean he ties to pretty much rape his sister. But he did have me fooled for a while there to be honest, but in a way I guess he had a heart, but his reasoning was completely off
His reasoning and influence and... and... everything else. Yuck! I don't like him. I hate him. He's such a creep and really inaproppriate! (Sorry to those who like him but I just don't!)
thank you! Everyone's like, oh it wasn't his fault and it's just yes it is! He didn't have to kill those people! I couldn't give him sympathy. It is all directed at the people he killed and the people he hurt.
i know!!!! sebastian doesnt even deserve pity!!! thx for agreeing with me
Again, thank you I've been having to defend myself while everyone's telling me it's all Valentine's fault. The cause was his fault, the outcome was Sebastian's.
exactly, sebastian was the one who carried out the orders.
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same.