Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion
III. Goodreads Readers
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Why don't more people read Self-published authors?
Reed wrote: "Raymond wrote: "Reed don't believe it- I heard Harrison makes those free book covers out of kittens lol"That's cool, I'm more of a dog person anyway."
You better watch out. Cats obviously invented the Internet.
Lisa wrote: "Denzel - I imagine it's much like all the self-help books out there on time management, doing better at work, and so on. Yes, so much of it is common sense. Then why don't people do these things?..."
You're a very kind person to help your friend like that. I never understood how frustrating it can be to write and publish a story until last month. Still, I don't think self-pubbed authors have the luxury not knowing these things. At some point the community is going to have to do some sort of 'quality control' concerning etiquette, spelling, grammar etc.
If not, then we're not really going to push away the myths that have compounded over the years.
Yeah, those pesky cats are for it, I tells ya!I just enjoy helping...even though I've just been ripped apart in another forum...oh well, such is life.
Karma doesn't like me.
Wish I could show you the before and after for your opinion of the refused cover, but I don't want to embarrass anyone.
Harrison I hope you understand I was just having some fun- I think it's great that you give up your time to help...I would love to read the forum where they ripped on you lol
Dave wrote: "Lisa it is difficult to create a good cover when you don't have the money to pay for an artist..."I think that's the point folks are trying to make here. If you don't think your book is worth saving up for and investing in, perhaps you shouldn't be publishing.
Denzel -I have to gently counter that writing a publishing a story is FAR easier right now than it has ever been! Imagine even just fifty years ago! You'd have to write it out longhand. With a pen. If you found errors you had to scribble them out. When you had painstakingly created your final version you had to hand-mail it out to publisher after publisher and hope in desperation that one would take it. If they didn't you'd have to shell out a TON of money to have it published yourself.
What we have now is VERY EASY in comparison! And we still complain!
Lisa
It's off topic, so won't dwell.Basically, I didn't like a gif posted in a review. I felt it was disrespectful and I said so, and readers had a go at me basically. Saying I'm trying to sanitise a review. Not so. I just want to be treated with respect that I felt was lacking.
We will all get bad or good reviews, comes with the territory, but surely there must be an etiquette to it. Politeness can go hand in hand with a bad review.
That's all it was. I've left that group, utterly disgusted by the reception for answering a post with my opinion.
Right back to the topic at hand.
Harrison wrote: "It's off topic, so won't dwell.Basically, I didn't like a gif posted in a review. I felt it was disrespectful and I said so, and readers had a go at me basically. Saying I'm trying to sanitise a ..."
Was it a review of your book?
Tina - It is not that I don't care about my cover designs or what my potential readers think. As a new author, I can't say my covers are the best they can be. My first book is a good example of project I did on my own with out the right tools. My second and third cover are better. I am sorry if my covers turn you away from my work.
Lisa -
I see your point and when I have the capital, I will be able to hire a professional artist. Unfortunately I will have to stick to my free designs for now.
As for the formatting of my books, I publish with CreateSpace and they have a free template that I use. The paperback versions of my books look great, but there have been some issues with the transfer to digital versions. Nothing major and I am trying to find away to fix the issues.
Here is what my first cover looks like. It didn't turn out as well as I planned.
Small Victories
V.K. wrote: "Dave wrote: "Lisa it is difficult to create a good cover when you don't have the money to pay for an artist..."I think that's the point folks are trying to make here. If you don't think your book..."
I do agree Dave. I have basically used precious money I don't have, because of a passion that needs filling. If you can't pay, wait, save and work on it more, before you hit publish.
Dave -That cover doesn't reflect well on your efforts. People aren't going to click to buy that. That then means you can't earn an income.
You have to invest in order to get your return.
Getting a good book designed for you doesn't take thousands. The money it takes, you could probably earn by selling "excess junk" in your house right now - and by doing a few service-style activities for others.
People will feel - if they see a cover like that - that you don't care about your project. And they won't buy. If you as an author don't care, then the reader feels no incentive to care.
I hope this didn't come across as harsh. I didn't mean it to be harsh. It's that this is a competitive market, and as an author you have to do your very best to even get a small amount of traction. I don't think that's your best and people see that instantly.
Lisa
Lisa wrote: "Denzel -I have to gently counter that writing a publishing a story is FAR easier right now than it has ever been! Imagine even just fifty years ago! You'd have to write it out longhand. With a pe..."
Well I'm not saying it's hard, I'm just saying that we still need to take care of things. While yes we have it easy now, that doesn't mean we don't have things to complain about. Say for instance, if you had a broken down old car and then you get a nice, fast, reliable car. Then you learn your new car is full of bird poop. It's like, yeah you've got something awesome there, but the issue of the tissue still exists. If anything, I'd say the fact it's so easy has only made it easier to make mistakes that need to be addressed.
I'm glad for what we have now, I really am, but there's still has to be some way to deal with the shlock that comes pouring in. Someone has to help indies who don't know better, somehow.
TinaNicole (Le Book Nikita) wrote: "Harrison wrote: "It's off topic, so won't dwell.Basically, I didn't like a gif posted in a review. I felt it was disrespectful and I said so, and readers had a go at me basically. Saying I'm tryi..."
Yes, I shouldn't have used it as an example, I know...but it ground my gears...The image contained incensed me.
Dave no offense intended but I think you'll find that there are self published authors who believe SPAs must hold our work to the highest standard. To do so we frown upon those who say, "I know it could be better but I can't afford it." In response you'll get polite and helpful ideas but ultimately and maybe rightly be taken to the woodshed. Non professional work is just firepower for those who hate the idea of self publishing... So we police our own.
Here's a few of my covers in comparison. I don't mean that these are "absolute perfection" - but simply that they reflect a certain amount of attention to detail. People see these and at least don't think "awful". You have to at least be in the category of "thought about the cover at postage-stamp size".
See how - even at that small size - the image is clear? The title is clear? That is what you need. Most people nowadays only see that tiny thumbnail when they are making their choice to learn more. Either that cover does its job - or it drives clicks away. If "for free" you are damaging your efforts, that is not even free - it's that you are paying money every day for that damage.
Lisa
Dave wrote: "Tina - It is not that I don't care about my cover designs or what my potential readers think. As a new author, I can't say my covers are the best they can be. My first book is a good example of p..."
I really not trying to be rude, Dave. I swear. I should've been clearer.
I'm sure you're a decent person. You're not up for sale though. Your book is. Your cover is the first thing customers see. The majority aren't really associating you with your book at all at that point.
As some people admitted on this thread, they don't even check to see how the book was published. A lot aren't going to take the time to check and then think well, maybe he just couldn't afford a nice cover. They're just going to pass it over or if they do check it's only logical to think you probably didn't put much effort into the book either.
eta: typos
Harrison makes a great point. If you publish now with sub-standard quality, you are actively damaging your reputation. You are creating a hole you then have to climb out of. If you wait until you have a good quality product, now at least you start with a level playing field.Lisa
Dave wrote: "Tina - It is not that I don't care about my cover designs or what my potential readers think. As a new author, I can't say my covers are the best they can be. My first book is a good example of p..."
Dave, want me to look at it for you? I can knock you up everything you need for ebooks, paperbacks and what not in about an hour or so. Just PM me your requirements.
Harrison wrote: "TinaNicole (Le Book Nikita) wrote: "Harrison wrote: "It's off topic, so won't dwell.Basically, I didn't like a gif posted in a review. I felt it was disrespectful and I said so, and readers had a..."
I'm sure you already know that was not a good idea so I'll just leave it at that.
Lisa wrote: "Dave -That cover doesn't reflect well on your efforts. People aren't going to click to buy that. That then means you can't earn an income.
You have to invest in order to get your return.
Getti..."
I don't think you are being harsh at all. I always appreciate constructive feed back.
Raymond wrote: "Dave no offense intended but I think you'll find that there are self published authors who believe SPAs must hold our work to the highest standard. To do so we frown upon those who say, "I know it ..."All advise is welcomed. I believe I can't get better if I don't know I am doing it wrong in the first place.
For self publishers, the key is that you're a publisher.. So that means you not only need to be a professional writer, but also a business person to arrange for the editing, the formatting, and yes, the cover. If you don't have the money to pay for these services, then you need to learn the skills. There are free programs out there like Gimpy. There's PhotoShop. There are stock photos. Research the kinds of covers in your genre. Mingle with artists. You can find great deals with foreign and student artists in places like Deviantart.com.
I did this cover myself, using stock photography and PhotoShop. It cost me less than $10 for the stock photos.
So a poor cover is a poor excuse. The number one thing that SPAs need to do in order to be taken seriously is to be serious about their business. Be professional.
Lisa wrote: "Dave -That cover doesn't reflect well on your efforts. People aren't going to click to buy that. That then means you can't earn an income.
You have to invest in order to get your return.
Getti..."
Here is my second cover. It is a lot better and my third cover was done by a friend of mine that is a graphic artist.
Born Hunter
Judy -I don't mean to be critical - but I have no idea what that covers shows at a small size. It's not doing its job to draw in readers.
If I had to guess, it's Mount Rushmore.
I have no idea what the book is about, its title, or its author.
If I was scrolling on Amazon I wouldn't click on that.
Lisa
Judy -OK I went to the full page to see what the cover was supposed to be. Even at the larger size the image is overexposed and has large white areas. I run a literary magazine and we would reject that image (the source image) as being not properly photographed. You want to make a far better impression than that.
Find an image that has a temple that is well balanced in terms of contrast and brightness. There are lots of them out there. Then have the image be focused on that without all the other clutter. You need that temple to stand out - clearly - at a small size.
Then, make sure the title words are clear against that. Your name isn't important. People won't recognize your name right now. You need the title to catch them and draw them in.
Lisa
Dave -Zoom that image down to postage stamp size on your screen. That's the size most readers initially see your cover at.
The title words are mostly clear, which is far better than many books I've seen :). So you get kudos for that. But I'm not sure about the background image. It's a blur of black. I'm not sure I could even tell that's a forest. And it's not a "threatening" forest even at the larger size. If anything, my guess is that this is a gentle country memoir about someone who goes hunting for rabbits.
Your cover is your one and only chance to draw readers in to find out what you are all about. "Born Hunter" at least lets them know that this is a hunter - but your cover needs to tell them it's a supernatural tale. The cover doesn't do that at all. It gives no sense of darkness or threat or danger.
Those woods / background has to be far more "passion-filled" to give that impression.
Surely there are billions of stock images out there that you could buy for very little money, to give that impression. You need a dark, twisting wood. With gleaming eyes :).
Lisa
Lisa wrote: "Denzel - I imagine it's much like all the self-help books out there on time management, doing better at work, and so on. Yes, so much of it is common sense. Then why don't people do these things?..."
And back to my favorite saying, (drum roll) "Common sense isn't common"
Another good place to get cover art is your local college. Many times students are looking for projects. If you don't think someone trying for a good grade won't give you their best.....
I read a lot of different subgenres of romance and erotica. This has exposed me to the self published reads. I consider myself open, but am totally aware of some of the issues plaguing self publishing in general. I can honestly say if it weren't for recs from trusted Goodreads friends, the horrible covers would have prevented me from giving some good books a try. I have also gotten headaches because my eyes kept trying to fix all the editing issues in books with great concepts, but poor execution.
J.T. wrote: "Lisa wrote: "Denzel - I imagine it's much like all the self-help books out there on time management, doing better at work, and so on. Yes, so much of it is common sense. Then why don't people do ..."
I like this saying. I need to use it more often.
http://prashchopra.wordpress.com/2013...Enough said.
Now I am getting back to "The Elements of Style" and "On Writing" that I just bought this evening. Because in all honesty, improving my writing skills (with or without any inborn talent) is the only thing I can do to get folks to click on my book icons, assuming the cover is attractive enough too:-)
Linda wrote: "Dave:1. Neither of your covers would make me click on them. They are flat, dull, emotionless, meaningless. They tell me nothing about your books. I stroll through the Amazon listings on a deskt..."
So would I also get an if I threw my short story at you? Because it's digital and I would find that difficult.
Also, sorry if I'm being offensive, I'm just a sarcastic boy.
Linda wrote: "Denzel wrote: "So would I also get an if I threw my short story at you? Because it's digital and I would find that difficult.Also, sorry if I'm being offensive, I'm just a sarcastic boy...."
I h..."
In that case forget I said anything.
Linda wrote: "Dave:1. Neither of your covers would make me click on them. They are flat, dull, emotionless, meaningless. They tell me nothing about your books. I stroll through the Amazon listings on a deskt..."
To address your comments.
1) Thanks for the input. I will work on my curb appeal.
2) As I stated in an early post, my stories cross over a 4000 year timeline and have many characters. My intent was to use Age Of Humanity as a way to identify the series of books, but each story doesn't link to one another as they would in a trilogy type series.
3) I understand there is a business to writing and I get that fact that it is not my expertise. I would like to find someone with that experience and the right network of people and tools. As a SPA, I have to take on the roles of Author, Editor, Artist, Publisher, Agent, Marketing Director and everyone else.
Yes it is easy to throw a book on Amazon but it not easy when you are trying to take it seriously.
3a) For some reason the crossover from the uploaded paperback to Kindle got hosed. Sorry about that. The publisher automatically creates the Kindle version and I trying to see how I can fix it.
4) Is there something about my stories you didn't like? It seems like there could be a lot of good constructive criticism here. Was it my writing style you didn't like?
5) I use my friends to help edit, not to publish or make publishing decisions. They are the extra set of eyes I need. I have a good story to tell(at least I think so), but I am not the best typist or speller.
I think I understand the reason why some people don't read SPAs. It appears that a SPA is looked at as lazy or cheap, and in some case they might be. I have read a lot of reviews that point out a books typos as a reason not to read it, or are critical of the writing style. Each review is 100% correct.
People have the right to their opinion, and when you put your work out to the world, you should expect peoples opinions.
Why don't people read SPAs? Everyone is going to have a different reason for what they read and why they may or may not like SPAs.
Read on readers. Enjoy your 50 shades of something I will never read, and you books about sparkling vampires(which I will also never read).
Write on writers. Write about romance and history.
For me, I'm going to write the story of a twelve year old boy that was away from his family and stood up to dragons and wizards. I'm going to write the story of a man 4000 years later that finds himself looking for his daughter in a nightmare of a world. Care to join me?
Like everything else in the world 'the good suffer from the actions of the bad'. A lot of self published works are poorly edited. Many of the self publishing writers can't afford to hire a professional editor, and that can put readers off. It doesn't mean that they are bad books, but it does mean that the reader risks to read something that isn't professional. At the same time I know there are a lot of 'Indie-followers' because the fans like the connection they can get with Independently published authors.
J.T. wrote: "Don't forget that once you sign the contract with the publisher they have an exclusive option (not guarantee) to publish the book. That is usually 5-10 years (according to most boilerplate). I don't want my book to sit on someone's desk for years for a pittance and not even get published."Indeed, that's the main reason I didn't want to sign away my current and future rights to a publisher. Not just that, but I write a series. If a publisher decides my first book doesn't pay the dividends they expected, they might stop publishing the book, but the right wouldn't be reverted to me for 5-10 years. No way I was going to make that gamble for the pittance they offered.
V.K. wrote: "Dave wrote: "Lisa it is difficult to create a good cover when you don't have the money to pay for an artist..."I think that's the point folks are trying to make here. If you don't think your book..."
But the reality is that 50% of self-published authors make on average less than $500 per book. So, it's understandable to look for less expensive cover artists. I spent $350 for my cover because I didn't know any better and took the first recommended artist. He did a great job, but that's a lot of books to sell to make up for it.
Linda wrote: "I'm prepared for the backlash; I've been through it before."I don't think you have to fear any backlash, Linda. If Dave wants to succeed, the first thing he has to do is copy all the questions in your post and answer them for himself. Something he probably should've done before he published his work.
Chantal wrote: "Like everything else in the world 'the good suffer from the actions of the bad'. A lot of self published works are poorly edited. Many of the self publishing writers can't afford to hire a professional editor, and that can put readers off. It doesn't mean that they are bad books, but it does mean that the reader risks to read something that isn't professional. ..."I've been lurking on this thread for a while but would like to pipe up here. It's my sad overall experience (and opinion) that the starting point is that many self-published works are poorly written. Before one even gets to the stage of proofers, beta readers, and/or editors, one should first clean up the first draft (and sometimes, the second and third ones, as well). Some self-published works read as if they are rough drafts, uploaded to Amazon w/o even a cursory, much less thorough, spellcheck. I've often wondered if the writer even knew what all those squiggly lines meant in Word.
Professional proofing and editing is lovely but if one possesses sufficiently strong writing skills, then that is not always necessary. Furthermore, the benefits of such outside service(s) depend on whether or not a writer has the good fortune to find people who actually know what they are doing. (Which, apparently, is getting harder and harder these days.)
I can certainly understand that the entire process can get quite pricey very quickly. But it doesn't take any extra money for someone to put down sentences and paragraphs in proper basic English. If you know that you don't have the strongest grasp of basic concepts and rules from grammar school (e.g., when a semi-colon is appropriate), then invest in reading through some of the numerous 'quick tip" websites. Those resources are free in terms of money, but obviously not in terms of time and effort. And IMVHO, *that* would fix many of the problems which ultimately led me to swear off 99% of SPAs.
Could you pipe up again and recommend some links for "good tip" websites? I'd appreciate it.
With the best will in the world even the best of authors need a touch up her and there.But, yes, a basic grasp of your language helps.
Harold,Any specific tips you're looking for?
Harrison
then invest in reading through some of the numerous 'quick tip" websites. Those resources are free in terms of money, but obviously not in terms In regards to the tips that Linda referenced Harrison
Harold wrote: "Could you pipe up again and recommend some links for "good tip" websites? I'd appreciate it."Hallo, Harold. You caught me before I logged off. :)
These days, a quick Google search will locate many of the main/popular sites. So depending on your specific interests or needs, you may want to start there (e.g., punctuation issues vs. homonym confusion). But for starters, here are a couple sites which I keep bookmarked:
S&W's The Elements of Style @ http://www.bartleby.com/141/
Some would say outdated and overly formal. But I agree w/ Strunk's philosophy that one must master the rules in order to elegantly break them.
http://www.grammar-monster.com/gramma...
http://www.dailywritingtips.com/
http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/gram...
http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/educ...
http://www.englishpage.com/index.html
Have fun!
ETA: Ha! Seems that Linda and I are having one of our GMTA moments. Cheers, everyone. :)
Karma-I really thank you for taking the time. This is exactly what I wanted. Yes, I have had a copy of the Elements of Style since law school in 1972. I think it is outdated but still a must. Don't know what GMTA stands for but I'm grateful. Much success to you. Harold
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That's cool, I'm more of a dog person anyway.