Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion
III. Goodreads Readers
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Why don't more people read Self-published authors?
Vanessa wrote: "Well said Denzel."Thank you. :)
Denzel wrote: "...Oscar knew that the point of an editor was to deal with grammatical mistakes so the author doesn't have to, so the author can do what they do best.Write wonderful and joyful worlds. ..."
I don't mean to belabour the point b/c again, it's always best when someone proceeds w/ what works for them. I'm simply pointing out that it is rather cavalier to declare that 'it's not your job' to know and/or focus on grammar. And more importantly, it's a peculiar notion―to me, at least―that writers don't need concern themselves w/ such pesky details.
Perhaps my view is old-fashioned but there is both beauty and art in what can be created from the simple construct of a noun, verb, and adjective. And from there, the stringing of individual sentences into paragraphs, which turn into pages, and then into chapters. But no matter how creative the mind, it will be difficult to fully realise that vision if the writer is ill-equipped to 'sculpt' it. Moreover, relying on someone else (such as an editor) to 'intrepret' and capture one's imaginations onto paper... er, whatever medium ^.^ ... turns one's story more into a collabortive effort, sometimes at the risk of losing some of the original creativity.
So I leave you w/ this thought: how, pray tell, do you know 'how well [your] words fit together' if you don't focus on proper grammar whilst using them?
ETA: Btw, I didn't forget that you noted being dyslexic. I disregarded it b/c that condition relates to cognitive functions such as spelling, reading comprehension, and proper pronunciation. From both personal experience and casual research into this LD, I don't recall ever seeing dyslexia as being cited as a reason for inability to understand grammar. But I can see how poor grammar could ultimately result from poor reading comprehension.
Karma♥Bites ^.~ wrote: "Denzel wrote: "...Oscar knew that the point of an editor was to deal with grammatical mistakes so the author doesn't have to, so the author can do what they do best.Write wonderful and joyful wor..."
And here is my answer: I know myself. I know what I like, and I write what I like. And other people who have the same tastes as me will like what I write, as my editor did. Just as we forge our thoughts without effort, without having to focus on which word goes where to make them fit, so can any author who writes in their creative mind.
Advice I follow from Dean Weasley Smith can be summarized as follows: The creative mind is what writes the story, the critical mind is what destroys it.
But as they say, to each his own.
Writing properly isn't a "small thing". It is THE thing. Fluent communication is the core of a novel.If Jane Austen wrote a clunky book about "heroine sees hero - Hero broods - Heroine dismisses him" how can an editor "fix" that? If the editor then turns that into Pride and Prejudice isn't it the editor writing the book, based on the original person's outline?
Sure, you can hire a ghost-writer, but then be honest about doing that. List them on the cover and in the credits as being the main writer. Either it's your story or it's just your outline that you have someone else write.
An author - I would hope - would want THEIR story told, not someone else's version of it. And, more than that, I would hope the author wouldn't want to lay claim to someone else's efforts.
Large numbers of authors give up on writing for various reasons. To point to one issue and say "see, this is a hurdle for writers, therefore we should all ignore this issue" doesn't make sense. The issue of giving up isn't unique to writing. Large numbers of singers give up. Large numbers of guitarists give up. It's the ones who dedicate the time, practice, focus on learning, and who persevere who survive.
None of these are "difficult". They just take effort. If someone isn't willing to invest the basic effort, I'm not sure why they should expect to succeed when so many others ARE willing.
Lisa
Lisa wrote: "Writing properly isn't a "small thing". It is THE thing. Fluent communication is the core of a novel.If Jane Austen wrote a clunky book about "heroine sees hero - Hero broods - Heroine dismisses ..."
This. An extremely eloquent statement and absolutely true.
Lisa wrote: "Writing properly isn't a "small thing". It is THE thing. Fluent communication is the core of a novel.If Jane Austen wrote a clunky book about "heroine sees hero - Hero broods - Heroine dismisses ..."
It's an unnecessary roadblock. If an author can write in their creative voice, then it's going to be fine. The author writes the story, the editor fixes the grammar. That's all there is to it. If a writer can't write in their creative mind enough to make coherence without second guessing, then that's on the author. But that doesn't mean it's as essential as you so claim. And I don't think it ever will be.
I can tell you and I are on the furthest sides of this issue's spectrum. So here are my thoughts before tap out.
While it's true the effort is what makes or break authors, it isn't true that placing an unneeded burden on the author is what makes them succeed. 50 Shades of Grey is/was riddled with errors yet it became a best seller. While it would have been nice if it had gotten a proper edit, that didn't change the fact that readers read it for the story. Think about that for a moment, it's errors didn't stop it from growing as big as it did. It didn't stop the readers from reading. That's because if a story is good (to the reader) they will continue to read. Even if they have to drag themselves through bad grammar. Now if it had a better story we would probably still be hearing about it.
The story is what the author focuses on. We focus on putting the words down while the editor makes them appealing to look at so readers don't have to drag themselves through our works, however even without that makeup a good story can still stand. I won't go into what makes a good story because that's all down to personal taste.
There's a saying in the comic book world, it goes "A good story can have bad art."
This is just as true for writing. That's all I have left to say on the matter.
Perhaps the point we have reached here is that to an extent there are different types of authors, and different types of readers. Some prioritise the story over the language, and some do the opposite. Some people are really only interested in the actual story being told (and perhaps they want it told in a very direct way), and some are more interested in the way language is woven to tell it (and maybe enjoy the linguistic meanderings as much as the plot).The reality is, of course, that for a book to work there has to be a certain element of both. A great story doesn't work if nobody can understand it because of poor language, and great language is no use without something interesting to talk about, but there can still be different tastes and balances of priorities.
Nobody is going to read '50 shades', for example, and expect the same linguistic experience as reading Scott or Lovecraft - perhaps people looking for the '50 shades' experience really aren't that bothered by perfect grammar and fine use of language. On the other hand, if Scott and Lovecraft were riddled with grammatical errors, they wouldn't be the great works of language that they are because nobody would know what they were talking about (and they still had to have something to talk about, of course).
Personally, I enjoy both ways within reason. I know people who wouldn't read Scott because they don't like all the 'messing about', and I know people who would find some other things 'far too simplistic', and would be so annoyed by any little error that they would put the book down immediately and never return to it. There's lots of different people out there who like different things, and that's fine. That shouldn't ever stop people making their best effort when writing, of course, but the fact is that some people are likely to find the odd error more tolerable than others.
Lisa wrote: "If Jane Austen wrote a clunky book about "heroine sees hero - Hero broods - Heroine dismisses him" how can an editor "fix" that? If the editor then turns that into Pride and Prejudice isn't it the editor writing the book, based on the original person's outline?"That's very true, but then if Jane Austen added a bunch of explicit sex scenes it would appear that there would still be people queuing up to buy it and read it, no matter what linguistic errors were included or how good/bad the editing was!
T. -I agree wholeheartedly. There are a number of explicit-romance novels on the NY Times Bestseller's list which are riddled with typos, cardboard characters, and gaping plot holes. I read them for research reasons ;). That particular audience apparently has low standards for the writing - they may just skim to the exciting parts.
Judging "regular" book writing by those standards would be like judging movies based by what Cheerleaders Gone Wild does. Sure, they may sell lots of DVDs, even with atrocious storylines and one-dimensional characters.
Yes, certainly, there CAN be literary porn. That's just not the standard.
So I'm not sure that making any judgement on writing non-porn based on how porn sells is going to pan out.
Lisa
Lisa wrote: "I want to comment on the idea that it's the ultimate evil to offer free ebooks. I find the opposite, especially with a series. A free ebook can hook in thousands of readers who otherwise wouldn't have started it."Pricing is always going to be a difficult and controversial area, and it's one I took a long time to consider. Price too low and you 'devalue' your work - people will assume it's rubbish and not buy it. Price to high and nobody will bother. Add to that the issue of whether it is full-length or novella, and you already have a number of things to think about (and then there's the royalties, of course).
I don't see the point in giving a book away for free on an ongoing basis, but I also don't see a problem with limited time free give-aways to attract people to your work, get a few reviews and ratings (not necessarily from 'reviewers', if you see what I mean) and get your name known, especially when you are starting out. Timing is crucial, though - giving something away for free when you don't have anything else to sell coming up isn't likely to help anything in the longer term.
My one book is on a free offer at the moment, as it happens. It is the only book I have so far, but I know that I will have another out within a few weeks, which is why I decided to do it now - something I can widely publicise (and get some uptake on, which I have) in advance of the new book so that I am building on some publicity/knowledge foundations that have already been laid. Of course, it's a very long road that I am only now starting on, but it seems to me a reasonable way to start to build something up from nothing.
Obviously some people who download it might not read it, and that's up to them - the hope is that some will, but at least those who don't will have come across my name before when they start seeing things in a couple of weeks about me having another book out. Giving away a limited number of 'free promotional copies' or 'loss leaders' is a perfectly sound marketing technique, especially for a new product, and I, as an author, am a new product. I won't be doing too much of it into the future, though, because it would devalue the work and make it appear to the casual observer as something that is obviously not good enough to sell for real money, and that wouldn't do me as a product any good at all!
Lisa wrote: "That particular audience apparently has low standards for the writing - they may just skim to the exciting parts. "They probably aren't the only ones, though. There are people with different opinions, attention levels, and even reading levels who are reading all genres. There are plenty of people who 'skim to the exciting parts' in Tolkien, at least in the sense of not bothering to wade through all of the details of the 'history of the world' stuff that they don't really need to know at that moment in the middle of an exciting battle scene.
Beautifully correct and beautifully beautiful language can be a necessity for some readers, but in some cases even an irritation for others to skip through to get to the action. It's a matter of finding the right audience for whatever style of stuff you are producing (and that also, of course, plays into the whole issue of negative reviews).
It doesn't mean that any old rubbish will be read, of course, but it does mean that good stories written in fairly simple language with the odd error mixed in aren't necessarily inherently unreadable (by anyone), or unsaleable, compared with perfectly edited and beautifully expressed works of literary art.
Denzel wrote: "...And here is my answer: I know myself. I know what I like, and I write what I like. And other people who have the same tastes as me will like what I write, as my editor did. Just as we forge our thoughts without effort, without having to focus on which word goes where to make them fit, so can any author who writes in their creative mind. ..."This doesn't answer my question but it's irrelevant. It suddenly dawned on me the reason for our disconnect. You advanced your views w/ the comfort of Ms. Smith backing up your creative output. However, *I* approached it from the standpoint of apparently the majority of SPAS who aren't as fortunate as you to have either the funds for an editor, period, and/or someone reliable such as your Ms. Smith.
Which is why, after reading your posts, I was reminded of the time when my son complained about having to clean his room when X would do it. Needless to say, I had a few words for my son. :)
Denzel wrote: "...Advice I follow from Dean Weasley Smith can be summarized as follows: The creative mind is what writes the story, the critical mind is what destroys it. ..."
I'm sure that it wouldn't surprise you to know that my interpretation of that quote is different from yours. But the Oscar Wilde pick was very appropriate to the most recent discussion. :)
To get back OT, how's this for a twist? Re-word the thread title from a negative to a positive: What can authors do to get more people to read SPAs?
Cheers, everyone. :)
Karma♥Bites ^.~ wrote: "It suddenly dawned on me the reason for our disconnect. You advanced your views w/ the comfort of Ms. Smith backing up your creative output. However, *I* approached it from the standpoint of apparently the majority of SPAS who aren't as fortunate as you to have either the funds for an editor, period, and/or someone reliable such as your Ms. Smith.Which is why, after reading your posts, I was reminded of the time when my son complained about having to clean his room when X would do it."
Personally I consider the issue of a dyslexic person, with a good imagination and a desire to write, relying heavily on an editor to help with the mechanics of the written word in the same kind of way as I regard the use of a wheelchair by someone who doesn't have working legs. It doesn't make them a person of lesser ability to move along the ground, nor should it mean that they should be criticised for their use of an obviously necessary means of mechanical assistance to allow themselves to get on with whatever it is they want to do. The wheelchair understands the situation perfectly, and presumably so does any editor working with a dyslexic author.
T. -It's one thing to simply occasionally mix up letters. As I've mentioned before, I volunteer to help an elderly author get his books ready for publication. He writes beautiful stories, understands how to craft high-quality sentences, and can be magical in how he designs character interaction. The only real issue is his shaky hands create letter switches and extra spaces. I am more than happy to clean that up. I don't consider that more than being a human version of a computer program.
I don't think that's the kind of fixes we were discussing before.
One quote from the other author was:
"I'm not going to claim that grammar isn't important, but on a scale of writers priorities, it's near the bottom. I don't concern myself with it."
This isn't a case of an author occasionally switching letters around. It's an author who willfully refuses to learn the basic rules of grammar because ... why? It might take an hour or two to learn the rules?
That's the part that I don't understand. Grammar exists to ensure meaning is clearly conveyed. Writing with poor grammar means that the meaning is not clear. An editor is now "guessing" at meaning and perhaps changing meaning substantially in the process.
"Stop Clubbing Baby Seals" vs "Stop Clubbing, Baby Seals".
http://www.dailyvowelmovements.com/20...
Lisa
Karma♥Bites ^.~ wrote: "J.T. wrote: "Commas are the most important piece of punctuation. I sprinkle them generously to make my work look distinguished and professional."I hope that you were being facetious. Generously-..."
I was
T. wrote: "...Personally I consider the issue of a dyslexic person, with a good imagination and a desire to write, relying heavily on an editor to help with the mechanics of the written word in the same kind of way as I regard the use of a wheelchair by someone who doesn't have working legs. ..."I would almost agree with you but for two things. One, Lisa already beat me to it. (Thanks, Lisa!) Two, I speak from personal experience. My LD (more than dyslexia, btw) was discovered very late so I spent years learning (on my own and w/ a therapist) how to get around what I could.
So I suppose that I'm taking Denzel's posts more personally than others. I work on documents every day, both my own and those of others under me. Some of them are easily comparable to epic fantasy length along the lines of Stephen King or GRRM. Guess what? No editor for me on which to rely.
ETA: My personal favorite is 'Let's eat Grandma!' vs. 'Let's eat, Grandma!'. :D
ETA2: Sorry! One last thing, which perhaps will clarify why I feel so strongly about this issue. I firmly believe that I was able to get to a point where my LD is ever-present but *not* a problem due to continuously reading books which were well-written. Constantly seeing what *was* correct, as opposed to what I *saw* as correct, reinforced my therapy.
Contra that is my opinion that today's increasing amount of poorly written work contributes to, and reinforces, the overall decline in educational standards and expectations. As a parent, that scares the utter crap outta me. :/
T. wrote: "Lisa wrote: "I want to comment on the idea that it's the ultimate evil to offer free ebooks. I find the opposite, especially with a series. A free ebook can hook in thousands of readers who otherwi..."I was not talking about promotions. Yes free and reduced price promotions are sound marketing techniques.
To answer Lisa's post. Of course when you bumped your price up your sales dropped. You had it free/$.99 for an extended time. People expected it to be low. There are websites that track prices for everything. So people know how long things are a certain price or free. Remember people love a giveaway or a sale of a quality item. You have to show that the item is valuable first. I am glad you are having lots of success in your 12 books. Baen has a "free library" program where they give away a free copy or two of their authors eBooks to sell the series. Yes that can be a viable technique. But once you have established yourself as an inexpensive author you will always be an inexpensive author. If you are happy with that, more power to you. You are using you books as an artistic release which is great. BUT, if someone is wanting to create a business as an author they have to watch the image they create in their marketing.
Lisa wrote: "It's one thing to simply occasionally mix up letters. Dyslexia can be a far, far more serious issue with written language than that - it's a spectrum disorder with a wide variety of possible symptoms, and 'mix up letters' doesn't even begin to cover what it can mean. It certainly doesn't mean a lack of intelligence, or imagination, or a lack of something worthwhile to say, but it certainly can produce difficulties in learning the detailed rules of written grammar.
My brother-in-law is seriously dyslexic, as it happens, and like many people with the condition (I've known several others) he more or less gave up on things like reading books because they were just too much trouble, resolving to do only minimum of reading and writing necessary to get through normal daily life. He certainly isn't in any way 'stupid' or lacking in intelligence or imagination, of course, but he'd need a bit of help with expressing things effectively in writing if he were going to do anything more than write what he needs to write for his job. I don't see anything at all wrong with getting that kind of help where it is needed.
If someone has resolved to try to overcome such difficulties because they want to use their imagination and tell their stories I say they should be applauded for that and helped and encouraged, regardless of the fact that they may need a little help with some of the niceties of getting their thoughts onto the page in an acceptable form for others to read.
Not many are prepared to do such a thing, or show any interest in books at all, yet some of our greatest thinkers have been dyslexic. And where would our understanding of the universe be today without the assistance of Stephen Hawking's wheelchair?!
T. wrote: "...If someone has resolved to try to overcome such difficulties because they want to use their imagination and tell their stories I say they should be applauded for that and helped and encouraged, regardless of the fact that they may need a little help with some of the niceties of getting their thoughts onto the page in an acceptable form for others to read. ..."Yes, but that wasn't Denzel's point. Nor was/is his problem in expressing himself or putting his imagination into words. He stated more than once (and quoted DWS in support) that his focus is to be 'creative', leaving 'the commas, colons, em dashes etc.' to his editor. To quote him (and not Wilde): Since grammar is riddled with rules, many of which don't matter, I tend to think less of it overall.
So it's not that he *can't* but that he doesn't care to bother. Which, again, is fine for him as it works for him and he's got an editor to clean up his work. My point was that *his* situation is not applicable to every other SPA. *shrug*
I think self-published authors just have to market themselves constantly. That's where the struggle really is. The big authors have time to solely focus on their writing, while self-published authors have to focus on writing and attempting to market their book at the same time.I wrote my first self-help book Win No Matter What: A Guide to Hyping Up Your Life a few months ago. It's made up of inspiring stories and most profits are going to charity. I've been spending a lot of time spreading the word about it, and it has been selling pretty well so far! At the same time though, I'm trying to balance writing a second book. It definitely gets hard.
Richard wrote: "... it's hard to get past the indie stigma due to the glut of really bad stuff being pushed out. "I'm gratified someone else is impolite enough to point out the obvious. A lot of self-pubs are dire - I have nothing against a good self-pub, but where do you find them? I really do not have the time to wade through dross, there are only so many books one can read in a week or a lifetime. The price in money is less important, and you can get good trad-pub books at discount when they are old enough or at second-hand. Yes, they also publish crap, but these are generally clearly labelled and packaged, so they are easily avoided (a headless woman in a floral dress on cover, or those two words "Dan Brown" are usually a good clue to leave it well alone, for example.)
Karma♥Bites ^.~ wrote: "Denzel wrote: "...I'm slightly dyslexic so I focus on the spelling and how well my words fit together. I leave the commas, colons, em dashes etc. to my editor. ...I don't think writers should foc..."
You only have one chance to make a first impression and those are the strongest.
Nihar wrote: "I think self-published authors just have to market themselves constantly. That's where the struggle really is. The big authors have time to solely focus on their writing, while self-published autho..."Contrary to popular belief, established authors with Trad pubs still have to market. Their publisher takes care of the sending of galley's part and assists with the seting up of author events but the author still has to "beat the streets." One advantage of a trad pub is the fact they will take out adds in some of the big papers, such as NYT and LAT which is a big cost savings for the author. A decent sized add in the NYT Book Review for 1 issue is over $5k the LA Times charges about $1k so it can get expensive.
Going the professional review route. Kirkus's Indie program charges $450 to guarantee your book is reviewed. (contrary to popular belief that fee does not guarantee a good review, just a review. Their disclaimer is very explicit about that.) That is not the same as Trading good reviews or buying 5 star reviews.
Most Trade Publications such as Publisher's Weekly charge SPAs to review their books and are not accepted into the regular submission stream. (they also try to sell you their publishing program too so watch out)They are also not published in the normal magazine but a special SPA edition.
So yes a trad pub has their advantages but also it is not a free ride like everyone thinks. Sorry about being a little disjointed their but I typed as I thought about it. ADD has its disadvantages. Ahh shiny.
J.T.
http://lousybookcovers.com/?p=7900#co...If someone is interested... definitely crap covers, while fun, put me off the inside too. Yes, I do judge book by its cover, in part, why do people put covers on books for otherwise?
Taste and preference, like beauty, lies in the eye of the beholder.One must never forget that opinions matter; but that is all they are - opinions.
When critiquing someone's writing style, we must remind ourselves that, regarding literary quirks, there is no definitive right or wrong - true or false -good or bad. This applies to any art form.
However, this is just my opinion. You may disagree entirely.
Jim Vuksic
J.T. wrote: "Karma♥Bites ^.~ wrote: "Denzel wrote: "...I'm slightly dyslexic so I focus on the spelling and how well my words fit together. I leave the commas, colons, em dashes etc. to my editor. ...I don't ..."
Should I be offended that my dyslexia has become a topic? Or should I just, like, jump in?
Allow me to clarify a few things. My dyslexia only affects how I visually see written words like 10% of the time. And I've gotten so used to it that I don't notice until I've already made my mistake. However my comprehension skills are incredibly broken. After reading multiple sources on how to use a comma appropriately, for years, I still don't understand its proper use. So I essentially resigned to trying to learn by sight. Just watching how others do it. A friend, at age 17 tried to teach me through that method and I like to think it helped a bit.
My dyslexia also affects my auditory systems, meaning I can hear something and my mind will instantly mistake what was said for something else. That's always embarrassing but it's kinda funny at the same time. Also, I hate reading. With a passion.
Because I think in pictures, it makes it hard for me to sit there and just look at words. Sometimes if I find a book that piques my interest I'll be able to 'see' it happening in my head. But that slows down my reading speed a considerable amount. I probably read at the same speed of a 10 year old when I 'see' what's happening. But, even though I hate it, I read because it will help me understand the flow of a story, because I have to do it.
Now when I first started writing, when I was about 14 or so, I worried about my grammar all the time and it pained me because I could never understand the rules and concepts. And then I started listening to Dean Smith, at age 18 and decided not to focus on the grammatical aspect. You ever see a choir of angels sing? That's how that felt. I'm 19 now, and though it took some time to build up the money to make this happen, I did it. But had I worried about the grammar, I would still be at my desk paining over it.
When I write in my creative mind, I'm still placing commas and making my words flow properly and all that good stuff, but it's automatic. I'm not consciously doing anything, I'm just writing down what I'm 'seeing' in my head. When I'm done writing, I read back what I wrote and look for inconsistencies and such. And then I move on.
Do I rely on my editor? Yes I do. How can I be sure they won't take advantage of me? She's not willing to risk her reputation over me. Plus, she's very kind and understanding. But she deals with the grammar, I deal with the story. And it works.
J.T. wrote: "Now just a piece of marketing advice. Never, ever, ever, ever (add as many more as you like) give your book away for free on a bookseller website. The reason why is a term in marketing called perceived value."I agree, but many SPAs give away the first book in a series to pull in the readers. And for many, it works, because they make sure readers know it's a loss-leader.
I do the same thing with my series, except that I haven't made the first book a freebie, but I have two short stories for free. The third short story and the novels are all reasonably priced, but not free.
Another thing why many 'free' books don't work is that there's mindset among many Kindle owners to just download the free book to fill up their e-readers, but since they keep adding more and more freebies to the collection they rarely read what they download.
Even if you just charge low prices, people will still have to buy the book, which inherently motivates them to read it.
Raymond wrote: "My goal is to create a grammatical nightmare for my editor. To use so much random punctuation that the editor is left weeping at my abuse and ignorance of the most basic functions of a comma lol"I just use 'Find+Replace' to get rid of all extra periods and semi-colons and commas. :)
Karma♥Bites ^.~ wrote: "I should mention that I still haven't figured out the increasing practice by some SPAs to upload a rough or almost-but-not-quite draft and then continue to revise & re-upload. Do they not realise that the vast majority of readers have neither the reading time nor patience to re-DL and re-read something b/c it's now been 'professionally edited'? What makes them think that readers will give them a second (or third, or fourth, or...) chance when there are so many books still yet to be read? Word of mouth works both ways, especially on GR."I'm sure they will realise in time that they are using paying customers like beta-readers. However, finding dedicated beta-readers who are interested in helping an author improve a manuscript is too difficult for these amateurs (not to mention that they'd probably wouldn't really appreciate constructive criticism).
Publishing is just too damn easy, and these amateurs are not really into building a career. They often have one or two badly written books and they try to 'cash in' on the 'fad' without too much thought about what goes into being a professional author.
The worst thing about all of that is that they are seen as peers of the professional self-published author and have a direct impact on the reputation of the real authors.
Tura wrote: "Richard wrote: "... it's hard to get past the indie stigma due to the glut of really bad stuff being pushed out. "I'm gratified someone else is impolite enough to point out the obvious. ..."
But why would it be impolite to point out facts, especially when obvious? B/c it's not 'nice'? If so, that calls to mind 'The Emperor Has No Clothes'.
What about that saying if it looks like crap and smells like crap it's most likely crap?Yet the other way around it just doesn't apply, if it seems too good to be true it probably is. I don't know, I'm sure my comment ties in somehow and I'm sure you get the point I'm trying to make lol.
Karma♥Bites ^.~ wrote: "Tura wrote: "Richard wrote: "... it's hard to get past the indie stigma due to the glut of really bad stuff being pushed out. "I'm gratified someone else is impolite enough to point out the obvio..."
The Emperor's New CLothes By Hans Cheristian Anderson is a great example of not pointing out facts because they may be unpopular. Though if I remember the story correctly. By pointing out the emperor was not wearing anything. You could lose your job or even your head. But it has been a while since I read it.
Martyn wrote: "J.T. wrote: "Now just a piece of marketing advice. Never, ever, ever, ever (add as many more as you like) give your book away for free on a bookseller website. The reason why is a term in marketing..."Like I said, as a loss leader it is ok, but not as the only novel you have out. Then it is only a loss. Because even if they liked it and you don't have something ready for them to pick up next then they may forget you. Our current society has such a short memory.
The thing that jumps out at me about the grammar attitude is just that, the attitude. Now, some people just aren't going to learn the nuances of the language no matter what they try or do, and if that is the case, I see no issue with specifically finding someone who will work those problems out for them. Personally, I couldn't tell you the difference between an adverb used as a participle and a past-tense conjunction, I just seem to get the words in the right order nine times out of ten.
No, what bothers me is the whole opinion of "I don't concern myself with it.", "It's not that important.", "I just pay someone else to do it.". To me, that all comes off as lazy and arrogant. Now, I see that he edited post 548, to explain himself a bit more and bring the full issue to light, and I now understand he has tried to learn them and found it's just not something that clicks for him and that it's not an issue of arrogance or laziness at all.
This brings up another issue I think SPA's need to be aware of though, which is public opinion. In this day and age, it's not difficult at all for people to get curious and dig up whatever they can on things or people which catch their eye, and they are not shy about sharing what they find. Just look at the fallout on the Ender's Game movie over Orson Scott Card's views on marriage equality. SPA's especially need to be aware of how they are perceived since they are doing all their own publicity. All it takes is one wrong quote to spread it's wings on the internet and you can end up with a reputation you will never live down, whether it's true or not.
Henry wrote: "Here is my little rant, somewhat related to the current discussion. Readers are not blind, they see what goes on, they Google, ....Poor decisions by some end up hurting most.
http://mad-days-of-me.blogspot.com/20....."
Not much of rant... too rational and thought-provoking, not enough vitriol. :)
Good blog article though!
Vonnegut has said in an essay that good writing is good thinking; and there is a reason why higher education insists on good language skills in one's mother tongue as a requirement for admission. It seems Vonnegut was right, and there is a clear correlation with good writing and good thinking. I do not really believe that someone who cannot string together a sentence, can nevertheless come up with a good novel. Spelling is another matter, especially as English spelling is - well, mad. If you cannot write, learn, if you cannot learn, then maybe writing is not your ideal field? After all, while everyone has the right to write, and the right to share the results, it does not mean everyone is required to like the results. There seems to be a pervasive idea that everyone 'can be anything they want to be' yet not everyone wins
races or fills stadiums with screaming fans when strumming a guitar. It takes some work as well as talent. If you lack one or the other, or maybe both, then there may be a good reason why people are not rushing to buy your book/record/artwork. Just a thought.
Shaun wrote: "...Now, I see that he edited post 548, to explain himself a bit more and bring the full issue to light, and I now understand he has tried to learn them and found it's just not something that clicks for him and that it's not an issue of arrogance or laziness at all. ..."Hmmm, curious. Perhaps, perhaps not. But rather inconsistent with his statement of being 'slightly' dyslexic. *shrug*
Speaking of grammar, here's something I came to realize later in life: sometimes, we're just not cognitively mature enough yet to actually understand it.I honestly couldn't get a grasp on grammar rules when I was 18-19 (and failed my Latin exams big time due to that). Ten years later, I came top of my English grammar class—all the while expecting to be the lowest of all due to resuming my studies at 27.(*) I don't know when I grew "mature" enough, since I hadn't studied languages in the meantime, but that was quite a nice surprise, even though I wish my brain had caught up much sooner.
Anyway, in the case of "young" SPAs, this might explain a few things, too.
(*)When I say "rules", I mean general rules, such as what a relative clause is, what's the difference between direct object and indirect object, etc. Of course, there are elements specific to each language, but understanding the basics has really helped me, even when it came to different structures (declension included).
I was mulling this over while trying to fall asleep this morning (I work night shift). Here's what kept coming to mind.I have the elderly author friend I help out. Let's call him Tim. Tim has problems with his typing. He mixes up letters. He has extra spaces. He doesn't even try to fix the errors. He just turns that all over to me. Yes, that means his books that go out are cleaner than they would otherwise be.
HOWEVER.
We live in a world where marketing and communication are key parts of selling a book. He's on Twitter, Facebook, his website, blogs, and email every day. He's putting himself out there, as he should.
But I am NOT editing those posts.
His reputation is being made-or-broken based on those messages, because people (rightfully) assume that what they see in those messages are what they're going to get in the novels. With his communications being so riddled with errors, he is actively driving away readership. Those poor opinions of him are very hard to "undo".
In his case it's shaky fingers, which he can't fix - but he COULD re-read the text just once and fix the errors. He chooses not to.
That's the similarity I see here. The author COULD have a little cheat-sheet about THAT vs WHICH (which, really, is a quite simple determination to make) and learn how to do it properly. But he won't. He relies on his editor. Will the editor fix every email he sends out, every post, every Facebook and Twitter update on his fan pages? If not, the amount of damage he's causing his own reputation could far outweigh even having the perfect cover and perfect book. People just won't even click to try it, if they've already formed a poor opinion of the author.
With all the competition out there, I don't understand not investing the few hours to study the basic rules - or to design a cheat-sheet - so this is done well. Sure, a portion of readers won't care. However, a large volume of them will. Why drive away a large percentage of readers over something that can be fixed?
If you want to be a writer, writing well is important. Very important.
I have several people with learning disabilities in my family, so I am speaking from experience. In general, if someone is determined about figuring something out, they can find a way. Relying on others is a crutch that rarely works long term. And, not only that, but in my family's experience developing the attitude of "I won't even try" builds a mindset that impacts other areas of life.
Lisa
Another quote, this time from Oscar Wilde: "All bad poetry arises from genuine feeling" (quoting from memory) - the fact that you are compelled to write also does not guarantee that the results should be hoisted on any unsuspecting readers. I would expect in both groups there are some who pay attention to learning their craft and some who don't. Anyone treating writing as a get-rich-quick scheme is self-deluded to start with so we can discount those, but there are people more commercially oriented but sensible as well. In writing and painting there is a myth (some people seem to believe it) that art just pours out of you, like you were a toothpaste tube squeezed by inspiration, while it is expected that say music, cinema or architecture take some study. In all fields some outside input and criticism is helpful, as is developing your own little self-critic, just trying to get the balance right so that it does not end up strangling you instead.
Oh and this was a good comment on Guardian: https://id.theguardian.com/profile/ag...
All this does not really answer the question... I would read more self-pub if I could get some recommendations so that I can find the good ones, so any suggestions? I saw this recommended in some other group, http://readersfavorite.com/, but it seems to be scam as they also have no reviews under 4 *. Goodreads or Amazon *s are also bad indicator, as I have read some crud rated at least 3.5, even with several reviewers (those with about five reviews, all 5* are already automatically discounted in my mind.)
Richard -Thank you so much for buying a copy of Seeking the Truth. I am just figuring out Smashwords; I only just loaded that up this morning. The book is still in the initial rolling-out stages.
Seeking the Truth was an anomaly. I wrote it when I was still trying to get accepted by Harlequin. I wrote that book as "sexy" as I felt comfortable with. I wanted to see if, even at my extreme limit, I'd be turned down as not being hard core enough. Indeed, that's what happened :). That was when I gave up and decided to self-publish.
So, out of all of my books, that's probably the least "natural" for me. I was pushing my own limits in it.
One that's much more my natural style is Finding Peace. Finding Peace is about a young woman trying to break free of an abusive fiance. If you contact me with your email address I can email along an EPUB, MOBI, or PDF of that for you to read.
Lisa
Karma♥Bites ^.~ wrote: "Shaun wrote: "...Now, I see that he edited post 548, to explain himself a bit more and bring the full issue to light, and I now understand he has tried to learn them and found it's just not somethi..."How is what I said in any way inconsistent of me being slightly dyslexic?
Hmm, i'll check it out. I have no discerning friends. Grimlock is a bit behind the bend (good trolling tho) as the completely inane typo-riddled dross has been in decline. Getting your t:s dotted and i:s crossed is still only a start, I have read some that was OK writing style wise but still a fail in terms of plot and character.
Tura wrote: "Hmm, i'll check it out. I have no discerning friends. Grimlock is a bit behind the bend (good trolling tho) as the completely inane typo-riddled dross has been in decline. Getting your t:s dotted..."
Love the intentional switch of the t's and the i's and the improper punctuation. I love it.
And no many of the writers that self-publish (note the differentiation I put on them) still have poor quality writing both in style and technique. The also have poor character and plot development.
Feel free to peruse my novels. They have a free sample of a contiguous 20% of the books so you can get a real feel for them on this site. I hate those jump around "look inside" things BN and Amazon have.
Hehehe...well, being a self published author itself seems to be a non-ending game of Russian roulette. Every possible outlet of exposure or possible source of credibility is a gun waiting for you to put your mouth on it, and that's exactly what you do. You put your mouth on the gun and you pull the trigger, because you live for that opportunity. Whether it's what you meant it to be or not, your site appears to be a site that offers the credibility that SPA's crave so much. So, yeah, realistically if you don't want people to make submissions and you just want to post about works that you like then you should probably change your site around a little. Either way, I think you are offering a good service (no matter how tongue in cheek it is meant) and I stick by the message I sent you.
Tura wrote: "Hmm, i'll check it out. I have no discerning friends. Grimlock is a bit behind the bend (good trolling tho) as the completely inane typo-riddled dross has been in decline. Getting your t:s dotted..."
I'm not sure why you're implying Grim's post is trolling? Her very ON topic post in a group she's a member of. Sorry, but there have been a few shining examples of exactly why people don't bother with SPA's anymore on this thread.
I'm also curious why you think 'the completely inane typo-riddled dross' is not as prevalent or common. Based on my latest book shopping adventure on Amazon, I assure they are not declining much, if at all.
A lot of plot and character issues will depend on taste. The writing needs to be solid before anything else, IMO.
I don't know if it can necessarily be considered a source that helps you pick self published authors, but here is a site that has a list of book review blogs that will review self published books.http://www.theindieview.com/indie-rev...
(All Hail) Grimlock wrote: "I have yet to find a source that helps me with picking out self-published authors who produce decent work. Friends, yes, but one source that vets them? Nope. I gave up after a while..."Try http://awesomeindies.net/. This is fascinating discussion by the way (I've been lurking but not posting).
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I care about the difference, hence why I searched for someone who fell into the proper list of things I needed/wanted out of an editor. But it's not my job to focus on small things like that. I've read about author after author failing and giving up because they got caught up in grammatical 'problems' and I couldn't do anything but shake my head. Oscar knew that the point of an editor was to deal with grammatical mistakes so the author doesn't have to, so the author can do what they do best.
Write wonderful and joyful worlds. I realize that my stance is contrary to most authors, but honestly, it's worked for me. I've found a reputable editor who enjoys my writing and is willing to make it better because of said enjoyment.
Sometimes authors should worry less and just write more. Being a writer is a no-risk business as pseudonyms aren't finite.