Buddy Read of Little Dorrit mid-Sept onwards with Janelle, Bridget, Lori and others Showing 551-600 of 1,118

[Daniela]

I was hoping until the last moment that the wedding would not have taken place... :((( I do not think that Minnie will be happy with Mr. Gowan. And he had a lot of debts, meaning that he has expensive habits, will they live on Minnie's money?

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

I'm thoroughly enjoying all your comments - and Mrs. Merdle's parrot is definitely my favourite character in the whole book. The parrot speaks the truth!

Charles Dickens knew birds very well of course, and had several crows as pets. The Raven by Edgar Allan Poe was based on one of Charles Dickens's bird characters - "Grip" - in Barnaby Rudge - who was in turn based on Charles Dickens's own pet raven at the time.

Mrs. Gower is truly a shocker - one of his worst hypocrites - and always reminds me of Louisa Chick ... do you remember her from Dombey and Son?

Sue and Fiona - I think you're right. In a way, the way we now use the word "class" is like the term "gentleman". If you say today that someone is a gentleman, you don't mean that they have inherited money and land, but that their behaviour is courteous, and they have good manners. We've kept the best attributes from an earlier definition, and can therefore still use the term(s).

[Fiona]

Honestly, I found this chapter quite boring. The highlight for me was at the beginning when Dickens gave us the image of a convocation of Barnacles.

[Sue]

Fiona, I think I agree in that for me the sarcastic treatment of the Barnacles, while effective, simply went on too long. I felt like I was being bludgeoned by all of the different Barnacles and their roles and places. I don’t recall feeling that at other times during the reading, unless it was during the Circumlocution chapter.
Now that I say that, I wonder if that may be part of Dickens’ point in including all of this descriptive prose. The Barnacles’ purpose was to prevent work being done by the government so why not interfere with everything!

[Bridget]

That image of barnacles is wonderful and hilarious! As is the line Lori quoted about Mrs. Gowan being herself - I laughed at that one too. I also like the metaphor Henry uses of "passing the bottle of smoke" around as a way to keep up pretences.

But when one really wants to know what Pancks found out, that makes these chapters even more tedious to read. But I'm sure Charles Dickens is doing that on purpose to extend the suspense :-)

[Lori]

Janelle wrote: "Mrs Gowan is tying herself in knots in this chapter, pretending she was the one holding out on the marriage (even though Henry wasn’t asking her opinion)and not Mr Meagle. When really Henry is gett..."

Thanks for the explanation of the word job in relation to the Barnacles. Something that the Victorians would have understood. This explanation definitely lends itself to the satire that Dickens was aiming at.

And the parrot is definitely the star of this chapter!

[Lori]

I'm sure Victorian readers were anxious to see what Dickens would choose for the next chapter and maybe they were disappointed a little to have to wait at least 2 more chapters after the cliffhanger of the note. Goodness! How did they do it?

Bridget, what is the metaphor in "passing the bottle of smoke"? That's one I've not heard of.

[Lori]

I'm pretty sure the only sane one in this chapter when it came to the wedding was Daniel Doyce. He knew he wouldn't be a good fit and would NOT mix well with the Barnacles. I say, good for him for bowing out and not making it a big deal. Funny that Mr. Meagles just thought that he was even odder for asking not to be invited.

[Lori]

Daniela, I am assuming that they will live on an allowance she will get from her father.

[Lori]

Bionic Jean wrote: "I'm thoroughly enjoying all your comments - and Mrs. Merdle's parrot is definitely my favourite character in the whole book. The parrot speaks the truth!

Charles Dickens knew bird..."

Jean, this is so very interesting about Poe's The Raven. I had no idea but will never forget that now. It makes me want to reread The Raven. And of course I will need to read Barnaby Rudge for the first time.

Oh, yes I can't believe I didn't think of Louisa Chick and Mrs. Gowan. They are very much alike.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

It's the sort of fact which, when you know it, you can't forget it :)

[Sue]

Lori, I thought the same thing about Barnaby Rudge.

And the parrot is wonderful.

[Janelle]

Grip was stuffed and is now in the Free Library in Philadelphia.
I think he needs his own entry in the Dickens family thread, Jean :))

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Isn't she* there? The story is somewhere here Janelle, and a pic ... and another tongue-in-cheek contemporary poem about it all.

Edit - not sure where that post is, but this post in the John Forster thread has more about the story, and King George IV and his pet giraffe :D

I can believe that Charles Dickens would like the cheekier birds like parrots and crows :)

*Edited since Janelle discovered the stuffed corvid was female!

[Janelle]

I loved the title of the chapter and all Dickens’ playing with words but it was a pretty lacklustre wedding, wasn’t it, what a family to marry into particularly if you’re at the unfashionable outer edges!

[Janelle]

Whoops, Grip is a she!
https://libwww.freelibrary.org/blog/p...

There’s a little bit in The Literary Friends thread, too Jean but I couldn’t find the poem.

[Sue]

Thanks so much for that Janelle. Love all of this peripheral information I would never have in a solitary read.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

I beg her pardon :) Will edit ;)

Janelle - Here's a great in-depth BBC article, https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/2... about it all: the Tower of London ravens, and other works of Art the raven influenced.

The contemporary satirical ditty I mentioned seems to have disappeared, but I'll track it down if/when we read Barnaby Rudge as a group. The link I gave 4 post ago gives you the details, rather than reposting here. But if I find anything more on parrots and Charles Dickens, you can be sure I'll share it in this thread.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Charles Dickens included lots of birds in his novels, both literally and as metaphors. We'll see much more of this in our next group read, especially about caged birds. Here in Little Dorrit, Mrs. Merdle's parrot intervenes with a sort of hysterical running commentary in bird language and antics, being at its most raucous and active when Mrs. Merdle is dissembling, and being particularly ridiculous in her assertions. Parrots in particular are known for their intelligence, and this one acts out what we are all thinking :)

[Janelle]

Thanks for the article, Jean :)

[Lori]

Link to Chapter 35 Summary

Pancks is back with good news!

[Lori]

The chapter we have been waiting for is finally here! We get the news that Pancks, the detective, has come upon the discovery that

Her father was heir-at-law to a great estate that had long lain unknown of, unclaimed, and accumulating. His right was now clear, nothing interposed in his way, the Marshalsea gates stood open, the Marshalsea walls were down, a few flourishes of his pen, and he was extremely rich.

He's had help from Mr. Rugg and John Chivery and has spent quite a bit of money in the process. Arthur vows that he be completely repaid for his efforts.

Pancks leaves it to Arthur to break the wonderful news to the Dorrit's. When he arrives at Flora's where Amy is working, we get more of her absurd and sad commentary. She is such a pitiful character and I think truly good-hearted.

Wasn't it interesting to see Amy's perspective while riding in the carriage to the Marshalsea? She is happy but seems apprehensive about this news.

Arthur very gently breaks the news by asking Mr. Dorrit to imagine his best case scenario basically and to believe that it has come true.

He takes a while to process what's been told to him and then exclaims that the family must be told and he included Maggy.

They must be informed of this. We must break it to them cautiously, but they must be informed directly. We owe it as a duty to them and to ourselves, from this moment, not to let them—hum—not to let them do anything.’
This was the first intimation he had ever given, that he was privy to the fact that they did something for a livelihood.”

I can imagine how tiring all of this was and exhaustion sets in and Amy and her father fall asleep.

[Lori]

I wonder how Mr. Dorrit will adjust to a life with money? What about Tip and Fanny? I'm not sure it will do them any benefit or that they will handle it well.

Please take a look at the gorgeous illustrations of this chapter in the link.

[Fiona]

A perfect summary, Lori. What strikes me as odd about all of this is the immediate acceptance by both Amy and her father that what they’re being told is true. Wouldn’t you at least ask how this has come to pass? I’d want to know all the whys and wherefores before I’d believe life changing news like this. [Chance would be a fine thing!]

[Lori]

Yes, Fiona, they certainly do take the news on face value with hardly any questions. Amy does ask if every debt will be paid so at least she is wondering. I’m sure the why and how will come to light, at least I hope so. Dickens is about the details even if they’re subtle. My thought goes back to the clues and I’m wondering how those fit into this?

[Bridget]

Good points Fiona/Lori, I would want to know too how it all came about, if only so I could make sure it was real. I'm hoping the next chapter sheds some light on that.

What did you all think when Amy wondered if her father should be required to repay all his debts, saying "It seems hard to me that he should pay in life and money both". I think she makes a good point. Arthur doesn't seem to like her answer though.

And what about that sneaky Mr. Casby charging Pancks 20% for the money he borrowed. The note in the back of my book says 5% was the common rate for borrowing money at the time. Today we would call Mr. Casby a loan shark.

Did anyone else think it was funny that Pancks and Arthur talk while Arthur is still in bed? It made me chuckle. I get it though, Pancks is very excited and can't wait to talk with Arthur so he barges into his bedroom. Arthur probably needs a lock on that door :-)

Oh, and great summary Lori! Thanks for that.

[Lori]

Bridget, I noted that quote from Amy as well thinking it was a double payment. But we know that getting out of debtor’s prison was only by settling the debt So I think Amy’s reaction is Dicken’s own critique of this system for the toll it placed on families.

I hadn’t realized Casby had scammed Pancks. So he was being sarcastic by calling him a philanthropist then.

[Bridget]

I wouldn't have realized it either, Lori, without the notes in my book. But once I knew, Pancks' speech took on a different meaning. Its funny how at first I was hesitant to trust Pancks, but now I don't trust Mr. Casby at all.

I think you are right about Amy's thinking being Dickens' own critique of the system. I know I'm looking at this with my modern sensibility, but a Debtors prison seems ridiculous to me. How could one ever hope to pay off one's debt while locked behind its walls??

[Bridget]

Jean/Janelle, I just read through the articles you each posted about Grip the raven. They are so fascinating, thank you for that. When I saw the beak on Grip, it made be feel for the children of Charles Dickens, how terrifying it must have been to be nipped at by Grip!

[Sue]

Pancks really is quite a good man. Was it Casby who increased his rate when he learned what Pancks was doing (or perhaps what the results were)? And Pancks is glorying in what he was able to do without any pleading for money. Quite a contrast to many others in this story.

I noticed above, not sure whose comment it was, that Barnaby Rudge will be a future read here. I’m glad to hear that now that the book has been discussed here.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Sue wrote: "I noticed above, not sure whose comment it was, that Barnaby Rudge will be a future read here ..."

I said "if/when" Sue; there are no plans to read it yet. Which novel we read next as a group is decided by tally and then a poll, and the next is Bleak House. So far we've read David Copperfield, Dombey and Son and Little Dorrit, and all 4 have been decided this way, except for the first one which I chose.

I only really wanted to mention "Grip" as an illustration of how Charles Dickens often includes individual birds in his novels, as well as cages. I could have included all the named birds in Bleak House ... but several found Grip interesting.

[Sue]

Thanks for the clarification, Jean. I’m sure I could manage a buddy read someday with a fellow reader here if Barnaby doesn’t make the cut. Obviously, with all of the books available, this group could read for a while.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

To avoid diverting this discussion, please read this explanation Sue. I think group reads of all the novels with this group will just about see me out. No plans on stopping reading Charles Dickens after a while :)

[Bridget]

Sue wrote: "Pancks really is quite a good man. Was it Casby who increased his rate when he learned what Pancks was doing (or perhaps what the results were)? And Pancks is glorying in what he was able to do wit..."

I don't think 20% was a rate increase, I got the impression it was the rate Mr. Casby always charged when loaning money, because Pancks says "But we never do business for less, at our shop".

You are exactly right about the contrast between Pancks and others in this story who only care about profit. I'm so glad Pancks has turned out to be a good chap -- with fabulous hair! I hope we see more of him now that his sleuthing days are over.

[Sue]

Thanks Jean…it all makes sense now.

[Sue]

Bridget, thanks for the clarification. I may have been thinking of one of his other lenders who raised his rates. I do remember the line you cited from Pancks now. And his hair almost seems a separate being at times:-).

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

I keep meaning to take more of a back seat ... but I too have to add my enthusiasm for that little coaly engine Pancks's stupendous hair! It has a life of its own. You'll remember that Tommy Traddles in David Copperfield also has sticky-up hair, (perhaps he was the prototype?) but it is nowhere near as wonderful as Pancks's :)

[Lori]

Link to Chapter 36 Summary

The final chapter of Book 1.

[Lori]

It is the day of freedom for the Dorrit's and Mr. Dorrit is completely self-centered as usual and Fanny and Tip look to getting new clothes for their final exit. They are so caught up in the condescension of their new station that the occurrences of the day have a royal feel to them. The Father of the Marshalsea paying tribute but wanting tribute paid to himself in the form of respect. He calculates the amount he owes Arthur and others plus 5 percent.

I am appalled at his ungrateful attitude toward Mr. Rugg (and Pancks for that matter). He thinks it is taking too long for the final paperwork to be completed.

And now the day arrived when he and his family were to leave the prison for ever, and when the stones of its much-trodden pavement were to know them no more.

The pomp and circumstance of their march to leave the prison with everyone attending in their finest clothes resembles the ball that Cinderella attends. They are so caught up in the revelry that they don't notice that Amy is not with them. What? How did they forget her.

Arthur is indignant about it as he finds Amy in her room after fainting and carries her out wearing her prison threads.

[Lori]

I can't help thinking about Dorrit's sentiments that "how will they ever get along without him". Is this another example of his haughtiness or does it show a slight tinge of humanity? His "giving of advice and donations to his fellow prisoners may be another example.

My favorite quote was
It was rather to be remarked of the caged birds, that they were a little shy of the bird about to be so grandly free, and that they had a tendency to withdraw themselves toward the bars, and seem a little fluttered as he passed.

Dickens is giving us the metaphor of the caged birds and here the first to be set free. But we know that there are many other prisoners of various types that we wonder about their freedom and will it ever come to pass?

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Nice :)

[Fiona]

I felt terrible when, at the end of the chapter, Arthur appears with Amy. Like the rest of her family, I hadn’t noticed she was missing. The behaviour of the other family members throughout this chapter didn’t surprise me at all. Looking forward to finding out exactly what they have inherited.

[Antoinette]

When the departure procession started, I wondered why Amy was not mentioned. I can’t believe the utter selfishness of her family. Amazing how quickly they look down on Arthur, after all he has done for them. I also am wondering how long it will take them to tear through their money and end up back in debtor’s prison. The only one with any common sense is Amy..and I can’t see them following any of her advice now that they are out and wealthy. Only time will tell.

[Sue]

Antoinette, I agree. I was amazed at the amounts of money they seemed to have spent already in the short time left at Marshalsea. And I can’t see Tip staying within the law in his future activities either.

Amy will have a difficult time in the future I’m sure. There is Fancy attacking the way she is dressed when she is being carried out unconscious by Arthur. Even the driver gets in Arthur’s way and prevents him from having any further interaction with the Dorrits after delivering Amy. Apparently Arthur is no longer good enough for them either.

[Lori]

Fiona wrote: "I felt terrible when, at the end of the chapter, Arthur appears with Amy. Like the rest of her family, I hadn’t noticed she was missing. The behaviour of the other family members throughout this ch..."

Fiona, it was easy to bypass Amy in the reading but she was not mentioned at all, was she? My kindle copy has a few illustrations, usually the ones that you can see on the original thread. One is a large crowd near the end when the narrator is talking about all of the different people present "In the Yard". Amy was never mentioned. When I looked closer at the picture, I found the Dorrit brothers, Fanny and Tip, Pancks and Rugg, and Maggy carrying their bundles. I couldn't find Amy and found it so very strange. Then the end made sense as to why she was not there.

[Lori]

Antoinette wrote: "When the departure procession started, I wondered why Amy was not mentioned. I can’t believe the utter selfishness of her family. Amazing how quickly they look down on Arthur, after all he has done..."

Antionette, I'm glad you noticed Amy's absence. It struck me as well but this chapter really showed the arrogance of her family. I think it is an indication of what's to come as you say.

[Lori]

Sue wrote: "Antoinette, I agree. I was amazed at the amounts of money they seemed to have spent already in the short time left at Marshalsea. And I can’t see Tip staying within the law in his future activities..."

Sue, they certainly behaved poorly didn't they? I consider it shameful after all that Amy has done for all of them. And Tip is most likely to be the first to fall off the straight and narrow path that Arthur helped him get on.

[Bridget]

Lori wrote: "I can't help thinking about Dorrit's sentiments that "how will they ever get along without him". Is this another example of his haughtiness or does it show a slight tinge of humanity? His "giving o..."

Good question Lori. I can't really decide is it haughtiness or humanity? Maybe its a little of both. Its hard for me to find sympathy for Mr. Dorrit when he treats Amy so poorly, but if this shows his humanity maybe this is an indication that he is not irredeemable?

[Janelle]

As I was reading the chapter I was expecting the crowd to notice Amy wasn’t there. The child of the Marshalsea was as well known as the father, and she was so nice to everyone but maybe even they couldn’t see Amy behaving like the rest of the family.
Looking forward to the second book now!

[Lori]

Bridget, it's definitely difficult to have sympathy for Mr. Dorrit. His brother is pitiful. He doesn't even realize what is happening I think.

Dickens has given haughty characters redeemable endings so there is hope but there is also a lot more book to go, so anything can happen.

Janelle, it's very interesting that no-one in the crowd noticed Amy's absence. She definitely should have been given more attention here at their farewell.

There are so many open storylines that need answers that I'm excited too to find out what's in store!