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Little Dorrit
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Buddy Read of Little Dorrit mid-Sept onwards with Janelle, Bridget, Lori and others
Following on from what you say, Lori, I’d say Mr Dorrit takes from everyone, not just Amy. He has no respect for anyone and has such a grandiose idea of his status in Marshalsea that he can justify to himself, and try to justify to others, that it’s okay to freeload.It’s interesting to be given another example of social prejudice. There are so many layers in English society at this time - it’s still quite a complex issue - that there are similarities with the Indian caste system. Mr Nandy is on the lowest rung of the ladder because he is in the workhouse. It’s hard for us to imagine how someone in a debtors’ prison can think themselves above anyone but clearly anything is better than the workhouse and so Mr Dorrit can patronise Old Nandy and Fanny, a music hall chorus line dancer, surely not considered a respectable occupation at that time, can despise him. It’s a very judgmental and confusing society!
Bridget - thanks for picking up on the father and daughter pairings. That’s really interesting.
Yes, Fiona, I was very surprised at Mr. Dorrit's attitude towards Mr. Nandy and I was shocked both by Tip's and Fanny's behavior and by Mr. Dorrit's nerve to treat Little Dorrit in that way. For a while I thought that Fanny was wrong and her father was upset for something else, I could not believe it was actually because Amy had entered the prison with Mr. Nandy.
After reading this chapter, it sure is hard to feel any sympathy for Mr. Dorrit. Both he and Tip just take, never give. Arthur has already come to Tip’s rescue once. He seems to get into debt so fast and always expects immediate help. I, too, am curious about what Arthur wants to talk to Amy about.
Looking forward to the next chapter.
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Jean - I have never thought it was a dream. I think she saw what she was told she had dreamed. My only evidence is Blandois’ reaction to seeing Flintwinch as that proves he has a double. I was mystified by Flintwinch’s reaction though as he would surely realise that Blandois thought he was ‘the other’.
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Affery sees two Flintwinches ("the other one"), and there seem to be two swaggering, or insinuating foreign gentlemen too.
Only very careful camera-work in a dramatisation can keep the mysteries so baffling, but in the books it is so subtle, with clues here and there: superbly done :)
Jean, are you insinuating that Blandois is another person with very, very similar attributes to Rigaud? They are so very alike that it seems so likely that Blandois is Rigaud. We shall find out!
Oh Arthur! How can you be so blind!“O! If he had known, if he had known! If he could have seen the dagger in his hand, and the cruel wounds it struck in the faithful bleeding breast of his Little Dorrit!”
I loved Maggy in this chapter just minding her own business but keen to remembering the secret in the fairy tale. She reminded me of Mr. Dick in David Copperfield in this chapter.
And let's talk about Pancks - he's coming to save the day it seems like! What is in these papers concerning some monetary amount? True to his word to Arthur he has been busy behind the scenes.
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LOL me insinuate? Never!
But it's interesting that there are two pairs of characters whose identities - nay their very reality in one case - are yet unclear.
Charles Dickens often gives us doppelgängers or imposters, but not usually a double dose of doubles ;)
I don't think Affrey was dreaming, either; but I wouldn't be surprised if Charles Dickens has created two sets of twins. Though Blandois has so many attributes of Rigaud (the moustache especially, and the cloak) which makes me think they are one and the same person.I'm wondering more about the list of clues Pancks was tracking down. What is an "Enquiry in York"? Is that a clerk, or a lawyer? Or is it a place in York? York and Durham are very far north of London, right? Is that significant?
A Church, a family bible and a still born baby sounds like some sort of inheritance or marriage mystery to me. But I can't make sense of the rest of it.
Lori wrote: I loved Maggy in this chapter just minding her own business but keen to remembering the secret in the fairy tale. She reminded me of Mr. Dick in David Copperfield in this chapter..."I love that connection Lori. She is a lot like Mr. Dick. :-)
Is Arthur dim or what?! I’m desperate to know what information Pancks has.
Fiona wrote: "Is Arthur dim or what?! I’m desperate to know what information Pancks has."Too many years in China, and in his mother's horrible house have damaged Arthur for sure. His naivete also reminds me of David Copperfield.
Yes ,Arthur is naive, but do you think it is possible that he does not fathom a match because of their classes? Minnie was good enough for him, but is Little Dorrit?
I think it’s more age, he keeps calling her child. She’s tiny so it’s easy to see her as way too young for him. Personally, it’s her family that I wouldn’t want to be related too!
I really liked the descriptions of Pancks’ hair in this chapter.
“excitedly sticking his hair up at the same moment, like a dark species of cockatoo.”
“Where he got all the additional black prongs from, that now flew up all over his head like the myriads of points that break out in the large change of a great firework, was a wonderful mystery.”
I absolutely love Pancks’ hair! It’s got a life/mind of its own!
I thought I left a comment several hours ago but I don’t see it here.The one part of it I specifically recall is that Amy now knows that Arthur has no feelings for Flora.
Bridget / Antoinette - I think you’re both right. Arthur sees Amy as a child he wants to protect AND she’s the wrong class for him to consider feeling any other way.
Fiona wrote: "Bridget / Antoinette - I think you’re both right. Arthur sees Amy as a child he wants to protect AND she’s the wrong class for him to consider feeling any other way."Yes, good point Antionette about the different classes, I think you are right about that.
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Amy is the daughter of a gentleman! Any criticism would not be class, but the fact that Mr. Dorrit is in a debtor's prison.
Arthur Clennam is the son of a businessman. Historically, and ironically, the Dorrits would have looked down on the Clennams.
Bionic Jean wrote: "Just a slight amendment ...Amy is the daughter of a gentleman! Any criticism would not be class, but the fact that Mr. Dorrit is in a debtor's prison.
Arthur Clennam is the son of a businessman..."
Thanks Jean. That is an important distinction to remember. Its easy to forget the Mr. Dorrit is (technically) a gentleman.
Link to Chapter 33 SummarySorry for the delay in getting this posted today. Some Wednesday mornings for me may be a little later.
Chapter 33 we are back to the discussion on Society with Mrs. Gowan visiting her friend, the Bosom, Mrs. Merdle. Mrs. Gowan's reasons for acquiescing to the Henry's marriage to Minnie are very much in line with Society even though she is worried about what Society will think. Mrs. Merdle certainly put her at east with her comment about Society will expect he will gain from him marriage. So Mrs. Gowan will get to keep all of her pension rather than having to give some to Henry and Mr. Meagles will pay his debts! Well, well! How nice for the Gowan's in that!
Mr. Merdle seems very downcast still and preoccupied with his work again much to his wife's chastisement - her complaint. He isn't worthy to walk among Society because of his unsociety-like behavior.
Yes, Jean, thanks for the clarification on the class discussion. Bridget wrapped up the reason for thinking the two of them wouldn't be a match. Even though Arthur is actually not higher than the Mr. Dorrit, they would still be considered matchable? Is that right?
I'm going to repost this list of Panck's clues as I needed to be reminded on them again and we can maybe add to the discussion with what Bridget mentioned earlier. a churchyard in Bedfordshire
an Enquiry in York
a Church in London
a Family Bible
a Clerk at Durham
an old seafaring gentleman at Dunstable
a Stone
a Still-born Baby
the Bible could be connected to Mrs. Clennam. Who could be old enough to have had a still-born baby? Still pondering most of these.
Lori wrote: "Mr. Merdle seems very downcast still and preoccupied with his work again much to his wife's chastisement - her complaint. He isn't worthy to walk among Society because of his unsociety-like behavior"Nicely summarized Lori. I felt sorry for Mr. Merdle by the end of the Chapter. Not as sorry as I feel for Amy Dorrit.....but still he's so unhappy. I guess its a typical theme in Dickens: money never makes people happy.
Thanks for the repeat of the Pancks List. Its good to have it forward again. As I look at it again, I have no idea what the Stone is all about.
Ugh too many typos when I reread my posts!I don’t know about the stone either. It could be many things- diamonds to plain old stones or something more obscure even
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It's the other way round, everyone. Mr Dorrit would consider himself of a higher status and class than Arthur Clennam.
We in the 21st century are proud of working for our money. The early Victorians weren't. Mr Dorrit, for all his disgrace and actual poverty, would still look down on Arthur Clennam as a possible suitor. Remember, Fanny, Tip and Amy all have to hide the fact that they work for a living from him. He views his brother Frederick with kindly patronage for the same reason. The money is supposed to just "be" there. It is unseemly to talk about such things, and Arthur deals with money in the Clennam's business every day.
So Jean, this would be the reason for his extreme revulsion to seeing Amy with Mr. Nandy? It’s amazing to me that the Dorrit family, aside from Amy, was able to maintain such a high view of their own worth but then we in the U.S. have never had a class set up quite the same. What we do have seems more based on wealth (old or new). And of course, Amy has no memory of the Dorrit’s past “excellence” since she was born in the prison.Jean, I have a question. What is the difference between Mr. Dorrit and family going to prison for debt and Mr. Nandy being sent to the workhouse, which the Dorrits consider much beneath them?
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Yes, it's part of the same perception. Mr Nandy is the oldest member of a working family, and the fact that he is now in the workhouse is abhorrent to Mr. Dorrit. Amy just sees Mr. Nandy as a gentle, friendly old man, the father of the couple who run the shop she goes to, and is glad to befriend him.
But did you notice that Mr. Nandy himself wished to observe the difference, and not eat at the same table? He knows and accepts that his place in society is very different from the Dorrits. The Plornishes and the plumber are all in this strata.
"What is the difference between Mr. Dorrit and family going to prison for debt and Mr. Nandy being sent to the workhouse"
Do you remember the posts about the Marshalsea, where we learnt that there were two sides, one for the working folk, and one for gentlefolk? Mr. Dorrit always takes his daily walk along the privileged side, and would never deign to go across the yard! He would, in his beneficence, hold court in his room, so that those from the other side could could pay their respects. This fits in with the strict social mores of the time.
The invention of little "testimonials" though, is all his idea, and derives from when Amy was a baby, and it was a little joke that he was the "Father of the Marshalsea". He felt flattered, not realising it was a joke, and cultivated the title and the obeisance. Because he is educated and has beautiful manners (and dress, thanks to Amy's clever stitching and doing without herself) the aura of being a gentleman holds sway.
Mr. Nandy and those in the workhouse have no such pretensions; they have lost all respect and standing. My grandmother could remember the fear and stigma of not being able to pay the rent, or becoming ill and old, and having to go to the workhouse. It was a very real dread for her parents (she was born in 1880). But for those in debtors' prison, they must have had some money - even a little - in order to be there. They have committed no crimes as such: i.e. they are not thugs or murderers, so it's not a regular prison.
The Plornishes have set up their shop so that those there can buy goods. All those in the debtors' prison have to pay rent, and buy food. It is assumed that their friends and relatives will do this for them, and that they are merely "temporarily embarrassed" as to funds.
It is hard for us to get a grip on all this today, even in Great Britain!
Jean - thanks for all these clarifications. Despite studying Victorian social history as part of my degree, I seem to have forgotten more than I can remember! I hadn’t picked up on the two sides of Marshalsea, nor had I appreciated that the inmates have to pay rent, although I did realise they had to feed and clothe themselves. As for Mr Dorrit’s status as a gentleman, I had thought this was partly self aggrandisement rather than a fact. I now understand the relationship between the Dorrits and the Clennams better. There is so much to learn reading Dickens. Thanks again for your guidance.
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And this is yet another example of how very different it was for Charles Dickens's original readers. Here 3 or chapters are read over 3 or 4 days, but the original readers would have a whole month to read them over and over again, and as we do, try to solve the mysteries and predict what will happen. Well, that's the ones who could read. Many of his readers were illiterate, so one in a family would read it to everyone, or they would pay a penny to have it read to them, or watch it read or acted out in the street. I should think they must have been word perfect in their favourite bits by the end of a month :)
Your earlier post about the strata of Victorian society was spot on :)
"I had thought this was partly self aggrandisement" - Oh you're right, it is, partly! He milks it for all it's worth :( But in essence it's true that Mr. Dorrit is a gentleman.
I loved this chapter! I think it highlighted all the hypocrisies of the Victorian era with regards to money and class. I’ll write more in a bit after I’ve had breakfast. Thank you for clarifying the class bit, Jean. I wanted to say that Amy wasn’t lower class than Arthur but I’m not good at explaining the actual distinctions as well as you :))
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Janelle (view spoiler)
This is all so fascinating. Thank you everyone for chiming in about the Victorian Class distinctions. If I'm understanding all these rules correctly, then the Merdles are also not gentlefolk because their money comes from Mr. Merdle working very hard all the time. But everyone treats them as if they are at the "top of the heap" because of the wealth Mr. Merdle has is so large.Oh, and I'm just now realizing that contrasts exactly with Mr. Dorrit, who is just the opposite. He doesn't have any money, but people acknowledge him as a sort of top of the heap because he was born into landed gentry.
Ah, the irony is brilliant.
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Bridget, your observation about the Merdles makes today’s chapter come together so much more clearly! Mrs. Merdle’s complaint makes so much more sense now.The fact that Mr. Merdle doesn’t enjoy all of the parties and society events all makes sense. Carpenter….he’d not have had all of these society headaches then.
Thanks so very much Jean for your ironing out of our discussion on this!
Thank you Jean for all of the clarification. I’m so glad I asked. I didn’t know how much I didn’t know! I actually didn’t realize there were two parts of Marshalsea. I really needed this refresher on the strata of British society too even though I knew a good part of it.It’s difficult to feel any sympathy for Mr. Merdle. He picked his wife for the attributes she would present in Society and she’s upset he isn’t living up to the needs of a proper social life. Of course, it could be that he has a human heart or part of a soul trying to exist underneath.
Mrs Gowan is tying herself in knots in this chapter, pretending she was the one holding out on the marriage (even though Henry wasn’t asking her opinion)and not Mr Meagle. When really Henry is getting a good deal, he’s marrying money when he doesn’t have any and little prospect of any (he doesn’t sound like much of an artist).Then she visits Mrs Merdle.
“True, the Hampton Court Bohemians, without exception, turned up their noses at Merdle as an upstart; but they turned them down again, by falling flat on their faces to worship his wealth.”
Much of their conversation is theatre, so much is unsaid so I love the parrot sticking it’s beak in constantly. Seemingly the only creature that can see through the hypocrisy.
“Here the parrot, who had been standing on one leg since he screamed last, burst into a fit of laughter, bobbed himself derisively up and down on both legs, and finished by standing on one leg again, and pausing for a reply, with his head as much awry as he could possibly twist it.”
The other thing in this chapter is the use of the word job. In the penguin notes it says another meaning of job is ‘to use public office for private gain’
So Dickens again is playing on this double meaning to point to corruption in the Circumlocution office
“So the Circumlocution Barnacles, who were the largest job-masters in the universe, always pretended to know of no other job but the job immediately in hand.”
Oh and I laughed at this bit about Sparkler“Edmund Sparkler has heard it noticed,' said Mrs Merdle, with languid triumph. 'Why, no doubt everybody has heard it noticed!' Which in truth was no unreasonable inference; seeing that Mr Sparkler would probably be the last person, in any assemblage of the human species, to receive an impression from anything that passed in his presence.”
He really doesn’t sound like a bright spark!
Loved that part, Janelle. I can see Dickens laughing as he is writing these words, probably having specific people in mind for all of these characters.
I’ve really enjoyed this discussion so thank you all. It’s back to the earlier discussion on ‘blood’, isn’t it? Blood trumps money every time. As my Mum used to say, ‘ Money can’t buy you class!’
It’s funny Fiona. When I hear that phrase I always think of a different sort of “class,” not standing. I always think of how a person acts: do they behave well, are they “classy” or are they crass. But I suppose that’s ultimately all based on the class system that I didn’t know about when I was young and heard the phrase used in movies.
This chapter ought to be a happy one with it being a wedding but given the parents of the bride and groom and the list of attendees, it doesn't turn out to be a happy event. We have Arthur who is doing his best to be nice to Henry given he promise he made to Minnieto try to get Mr. Meagles to try accept him as her husband. so far he had gained little or nothing from the dismissal of Nobody, with all his inconsistencies, anxieties, and contradictions...For he never could forget what he had been; and he knew that he had once disliked Gowan for no better reason than that he had come in his way.
The Barnacles attending are quite a cast with their airs and a very lengthy description of them by Dickens satirizing again the do nothing attitude of the Circumlocution office which keeps everything going around in circles.
Poor Mr. Meagles can't get away from the haughty Mrs. Gowan.
Mr. Meagles, hove down by his good company while he highly appreciated it, was not himself. Mrs. Gowan was herself, and that did not improve him.
No matter how sad he is that Minnie is married and leaving to go to Italy, he snobbishly consoles himself with the fact that is is satisfying to be in such high company.
I loved the description of Mrs. Gowan in this chapter as the Family greatness.
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What a great catch Bridget. I hadn't thought about the father/daughter pairs. Mrs. Plornish and Mr. Nandy are kind and loving while Mr. Meagles and Minnie are kind and loving, Mr. Meagles has spoiled Minnie. Mr. Dorrit and Amy have a very one sided relationship, Amy provides and he takes.