Sorry, you must be a member of the group to do that. Join this group.
Dickensians! discussion
This topic is about
Little Dorrit
Buddy Reads
>
Buddy Read of Little Dorrit mid-Sept onwards with Janelle, Bridget, Lori and others
There’s image errors on the app as well for me. Oh well, no illustrations to start each days discussion. As Jean says there are always images in her summaries and if I find others worth a look I will put a link instead. On another topic, I was just reading the next days comments in the original thread and someone described Pet and Henry Gowan as young love. I’m curious how old is Henry? I assumed he was closer to Arthur’s age not in his twenties.
It’s interesting that even with his Barnacle family connections Henry is not considered good enough for Pet by the Meagles as they are such obvious social climbers.
I felt quite sorry for John Chivery, he really does think it would be a wonderful life for Amy to have been born, then live and die in the Marshalsea.Dickens had me chuckling with this description:
“There really was a genuineness in the poor fellow, and a contrast between the hardness of his hat and the softness of his heart (albeit, perhaps, of his head, too), that was moving”
Janelle wrote: "There’s image errors on the app as well for me. Oh well, no illustrations to start each days discussion. As Jean says there are always images in her summaries and if I find others worth a look I wi..."Janelle - when Arthur first meets Henry, he says he looks ‘barely thirty’. I think the problem with his intentions toward Pet is financial. We’re told he inherited ‘a very small independence’ from his father and that despite the best efforts of Lord Decimus to promote his painting as having merit, the ‘prejudiced public’ hadn’t agreed so I don’t think he has much money. Mr Meagles will be hoping that Pet marries above her socially, I would expect, and Henry doesn’t fit that bill even with his Barnacle connections.
Ah, thanks Fiona, I don’t know why I thought he was older. He’s like the black sheep of the family, I guess, or the unfashionable branch.
Poor John Chivery! He set his cap at Amy Dorrit years ago only to be told by the object of his affection that he’s wasting his time. I could hear his poor heart breaking.I love that quote, Janelle. My favourite is the comical description of the door sign:
The business was of too modest a character to support a life size Highlander, but it maintained a little one on a bracket on the doorpost, who looked like a fallen Cherub that had found it necessary to take to a kilt.
What is wrong with Amy? She seems to be very low.
While I am really sorry for John, I couldn't but cringe imagining Amy's life entirely inside the prison: "There she was born, There she lived, There she died". Ugh!What is Amy doing on the Iron Bridge? She was there with Arthur. Is she thinking about him and pining for him?
So, from yesterday's chapter, Dickens didn't mince words about Henry from the beginning - he is not one to be liked. I'm glad that we all agree that Young Chivery was quite presumptuous in his desires for Amy's life. Will she ever get any consideration for her wants in her life? I sure hope so.
I don't see that she is pining for Arthur. I think she is so devoted to her father that she would stay a spinster like we saw in David Copperfield with Agnes and her father, Mr. Wickfield. Completely self-sacrificing. However, we believe Amy deserves to be happy, outside of the prison, with a family of her own. I hope she can see herself as a wife and mother and not just an unappreciated workhorse.
That’s a good point, Lori. No one seems to think about what Amy herself needs or wants. They all think they know best.
Are Amy and Pet roughly the same age? I think they are. We now have back to back chapters about young love. Pet and Henry love each other, but her parents don't approve. The parents of John Chivery and Amy are happy with the match, but Amy doesn't want it. And even though they are opposites, there are elements of social climbing in the calculations of both families.It never occurred to me that Amy was on the Iron Bridge because she remembers Arthur there, that's interesting. I'll have to think about that. I just sensed she was distraught about her father (whatever he's up to now). And while I feel bad for John Chivery, when he heard Amy was upset and chose to push forward with his proposal instead of comforting her, I was disappointed in him.
I’m not sure Henry does love Pet. I think he may just be after her fortune.
If I remember correctly, Amy and Arthur walked towards the bridge because that was already somewhere Amy went regularly. Because it’s a toll bridge it’s nowhere near as busy as other places. Amy is surrounded by people all the time, I think it’s just a place she can go to get some quiet time.
I just went back and re-read the scene on the bridge. I thought Amy was there worrying over her father, but she doesn't start lamenting "O father, how can you!" until after she sees John. Somehow I missed that the first read through. So her exclamation, is because she realizes her father revealed her one quiet place where she could be alone. AND he also purposefully sent John there, knowing full well that John intended to propose. So Amy refusing John, is quite a bold gesture on her part. Usually she is only concerned with her father's wants/needs, but here, she is thinking of herself (and possibly John too, who would be sad married to a woman who didn't want him).I'm sure everyone else got this the first read through, but it was eye opening to me on the second read, so I thought I'd mention it. (Janelle's comment about the "quiet place" got me thinking, so thank you for that!)
It’s almost like Amy realises her father is trading her for some cigars when she says that, Bridget. I imagine that living in the prison is noisy, crowded and busy, her family always want something from her, that’s why I can understand the need for a quiet place.
I agree with you both, Bridget and Janelle about Amy's need for a place to be by herself. This is definitely a side of Amy we haven't seen yet and it's refreshing to know that she can think about "Amy" because her nature is to be sacrificial to others.
It’s also nice to think that she will put her needs first, at least in this instance. I also had thought this was Amy’s quiet place and private place.As for Pet and Henry, I wondered if Pet actually was in love or just enjoying the apparent adoration of her apparent admirer. Henry seems a gold digger to the core.
And I wonder if Amy thinks fondly of Arthur occasionally.
“For now he sat in his black velvet cap and old grey gown, magnanimous again; and would have comported himself towards any Collegian who might have looked in to ask his advice, like a great moral Lord Chesterfield, or Master of the ethical ceremonies of the Marshalsea.”In the Penguin notes, this is labelled as ‘ironic. Lord Chesterfield gave worldly-wise advice in his Letters to his Son(1774). Dickens is probably alluding to Samuel Johnson’s declaration that the Letters taught “the morals of a whore and the manners of a dancing master”.
Jean has a whole lot more about Lord Chesterfield HERE
Mod
Mod
If it helps, you could read the last few summaries which Janelle has linked to, so that you catch up straightaway, and are at the same point in the story. All the main events are there, and then you can read the actual chapters more at your leisure.
Janelle wrote: "“For now he sat in his black velvet cap and old grey gown, magnanimous again; and would have comported himself towards any Collegian who might have looked in to ask his advice, like a great moral L..."Thanks, Janelle. That’s really interesting.
Is it just me or is Amy’s father at it here? He’s such a selfish man. He gives no thought to Amy’s needs or the quality of her life, only his own. Is he really feeling sorry for himself or is he trying to make her feel so bad about his position, and the potential lack of standing with the turnkey, that she’ll accept John Chivery’s proposal? Or do I have the wrong end of the stick entirely? Help!
I think you are spot on Fiona. Mr. Dorrit is awful in this chapter, as you said thinking only of himself. The narrator even points it out directly "All this time he [Amy's father] had never once considered thought of her dress, her shoes, her need of anything"And its not only Amy that he disregards, how about the treatment of his brother. He lectures his brother on how to live, when his brother is the Free man. I loved when the narrator said "Nothing could have been wanting to the perfection of his [Mr. Dorrit} character as a fraternal guide...if he had only steered his brother clear of ruin, instead of bringing it upon him" Mr. Dorrit conveniently forgets he is the reason his brother is destitute, and his children are being raised in a prison.
Oh, he just makes me so mad! The way he manipulates Amy, especially at the end when she comes back thinking he is asleep and he lays it on again I have not been able to do much for you; but all I have been able to do, I have done". Really? what has he done besides eat the food she brings him, wear the clothes she buys him and force the pretense of a sad nobility on everyone so that they cater to him?
sorry for the rant, this chapter got to me I guess
👏👏👏👏That’s me cheering for your ranting about Mr. Dorrit, Bridget! I had a scowl on my face the entire time reading this chapter. Not my favorite so far at all. And like Fiona, I wondered if I was off base but I’m glad you guys agree.
Nothing here will endear Mr. Dorrit’s plight of his life to me. I don’t feel sorry for him.
Next chapter, please!
Definitely, William Dorrit is an awful man! I agree with you all.When he is was walking with his brother it kind of reminded me of a royal parade, I almost expected him to start laying his hands on the poor and the sick to cure them of diseases. That’s how deluded he is about his own importance.
Thank you for confirming my suspicions, ladies! You’re right, Bridget. His behaviour towards his brother is also despicable. Such an ego for a man in his position!
William really does appear to see himself as virtual royalty among those of Marshalsea. And his words to his brother were awful. I was surprised he did watch Frederick walking to his door lest he fall since he didn’t seem to care. Well I guess Frederick’s weakness makes him look better in his own eyes.As for his treatment of Amy, I was dreading that she might give in and say she would marry Chivery. Thankfully she is strong enough to resist her father’s disgusting whining. Somehow, even Dickens seems tired of the Father of Marshalsea by the end of this chapter.
I enjoyed this chapter, so many funny lines and the parrot :))“A man so much in want of airing that he had a blue mould upon him”
“The carpenters had a joke to the effect that he was dead without being aware of it”
“The lady was not young and fresh from the hand of Nature, but was young and fresh from the hand of her maid.”
Great quotes, Janelle. My favourite is The first lady…..was in such a tumbled condition altogether, that it seemed as if it would be an act of kindness to iron her.
I didn’t enjoy this chapter though because Fanny was behaving in such a superior manner towards Amy. I’m hoping all this is leading up to Amy realising that her father and siblings are hopelessly selfish and that she would be better off without them.
I’m with you Fiona. Dickens would not be emphasizing this air of superiority if it didn’t have a purpose. I was surprised to read that Tip was feeling sorry for not recognizing Amy’s devotion to the family or was that part of the satire?
Great quotes Fiona and Janelle. The parrot was so funny in this chapter. Especially the way he "comments" on the snobbery of Mrs. Merdle. I love the birds Dickens portrays. Remember the bird James Carker had in Dombey and Son, and how it would always hang upside down. This parrot reminded me of that. I also loved how the parrot was always clinging to the outside of its cage. Kind of reminded me of Amy Dorrit's situation where she roams around outside the Marshalsea prison, but she's always still attached to it.Lori, I'm guessing that was still part of the satire. Sometimes its hard for me to tell, because Dickens writes Tip and Fanny with some kindness or caring, at least compared to their father. I loved the line about Tip "with that Marshalsea taint upon his love, he loved her [Little Dorrit]". The "Marshalsea taint" really sums up the relations Little Dorrit has with her family.
What a great observation of the parrot outside the cage, Bridget! I didn’t even think of it like that.I do think Fanny realises how awful she is to Amy later in the chapter but I doubt it’ll change her behaviour. Tip just doesn’t seem all that bright to me.
Sorry for not participating over the past few days. Life got in the way, and have had no time to read. Will be catching up soon😁
I enjoyed this chapter for the wonder of the satire, the elegance of the put downs that seemed to bounce off Fanny and Mrs Markel. They only seemed to land on Amy. And Fanny, so blind. Even her apology was somewhat backhanded as she seems to think Amy can’t do better. The final sentences of the chapter could as well be describing a person sinking into deep depression as returning to spend time with her father.
No worries, Antoinette :)
Plenty of light and shadow again in this chapter. The description of young Sparkler is not a flattering one!
“He was of a chuckle-headed, high-shouldered make, with a general appearance of being, not so much a young man as a swelled boy”
Plus the suggestion he was dropped on his head as a baby.
The women are reduced to bosoms for displaying expensive jewels at this posh party where everyone just seems to be out to impress.
I have to admit that I found this chapter boring. I’m sure the satire meant much to contemporary readers but it meant little to me. The only fascination for me in all this waffling is to wonder how all these disparate characters that we’ve met so far are going to come together.
Same here, Fiona. I found it boring and also difficult to read. I understand that Mr. Merdle is not a carefree man.
Probably one of the reasons this one wasn't as exciting is because it gave us so much info about all of these magistrates who obviously are only "friends" with Mr. Merdle for their own benefit. Sounds like he has more money than the Queen and he is willing to use it for Society. He does not enjoy these lavish dinner parties where the powder from the footmen flavoring their dinner! Powder! There was so much powder in waiting, that it flavored the dinner. Pulverous particles got into the dishes, and Society's meats had a seasoning of first-rate footmen.
Now that is hilarious! But something has caused him to feel unwell. After reading the last paragraph alluding to the Dorrits. Maybe this "sickness" is guilt? Maybe this is the beginnings of a clue that will lead us to the mystery behind Mr. Dorrit's insolvency.
Mr. Merdle's complaint. Society and he had so much to do with one another in all things else, that it is hard to imagine his complaint, if he had one, being solely his own affair. Had he that deep-seated recondite complaint, and did any doctor find it out? Patience, in the meantime, the shadow of the Marshalsea wall was a real darkening influence, and could be seen on the Dorrit Family at any stage of the sun's course.
Me too. I just tried to let the words flow through my head and not think about them all too much. There was as similar party in Dombey and Son, where Mr. Domeby didn't really want to be at the party - even though he organized it. Makes me wonder how many of these boring parties Dickens had to attend? He writes viscerating satires of Society parties with accuracy.
Thinking about Dombey and Son got me wondering about the families in this novel. In Dombey and Son the rich families were unhappy, but at least there were many examples of poor families that loved each other.Are there any happy families in this novel? Maybe the Meagles?
Lori wrote: "Probably one of the reasons this one wasn't as exciting is because it gave us so much info about all of these magistrates who obviously are only "friends" with Mr. Merdle for their own benefit. Sou..."Lori, I think you and I were typing at the same time! Loved those quotes you pulled out. The first was so funny. The second is very mysterious. I had the same thought connecting it to Mr. Dorrit. We shall see.........
Bridget wrote: "Me too. I just tried to let the words flow through my head and not think about them all too much. There was as similar party in Dombey and Son, where Mr. Domeby didn't really want to..."
Great question and certainly something Dickens most likely did a lot. We definitely get his view of Society in this chapter.
Bridget wrote: "Thinking about Dombey and Son got me wondering about the families in this novel. In Dombey and Son the rich families were unhappy, but at least there were many examples of..."Another interesting thought to ponder, Bridget. Maybe the Meagles here but lots more unhappy families because the circumstances beginning with prisoners and debt. Speaking of prisoners, where is Rigaud/Lignier(I'm pretty sure I spelled that wrong). And our Italian friend, Cavaletto?
There is one commonality between Mr. Merdle and Amy: they are both used by others to get what they want.
I also found this a difficult chapter to read. Dickens had even more than his usual run on sentences with multiple clauses that don’t seem to belong unless you read the sentence over more than once. I wonder if the structure of this chapter was intended to reflect the complexity, the interbred nature of Society, which seems to exist only to serve itself. I wonder if Mr. Merdle’s complaint is that he is coming to see through the facade of his life? The end of the chapter did let us know that we will find out, and that Society may find out too.
Mod
Dickensians!
Books mentioned in this topic
Bleak House (other topics)The Holly-Tree (other topics)
The Chimes (other topics)
Little Dorrit (other topics)
Dombey and Son (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Charles Dickens (other topics)Charles Dickens (other topics)
Charles Dickens (other topics)
Charles Dickens (other topics)
Charles Dickens (other topics)
More...
‘Snarky’ describes it perfectly, Sue!