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Little Dorrit
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Buddy Read of Little Dorrit mid-Sept onwards with Janelle, Bridget, Lori and others
Sue wrote: "I also found this a difficult chapter to read.I wonder if the structure of this chapter was intended to reflect the complexity, the interbred nature of Society, which seems to exist only to serve itself."
Oh, I love that thought Sue. It wouldn't surprise me that Dickens made the writing reflect the complexity of Society. Looked at through that lens, its really wonderfully written.
I believe the other “bosoms” weren’t capitalized and seemed subservient to Mrs. Merdle, socially most especially. They weren’t spoken of as women or as people as Mrs. Merdle is but seemed to be only jewelry holders. Near the end of the chapter, Dickens writes: “There was no shadow of Mr. Merdle’s complaint on the bosom now displaying precious stones in rivalry with many similar superb jewel-stands..” I can’t find the section that mentions multiple “bosoms.” (Isn’t that a crazy phrase to type anywhere)
Sue, I like your thought about the impersonal vibe this chapter seems to exude. We also get that feeling with all of the unnamed magistrates- only titles.
And it’s not really like Dickens to keep anything impersonal, is it. That does sort of lead to the conclusion that he is aiming higher than individuals here, doesn’t it. So much of this book appears aimed at systems: prisons, government offices, the wealthy and the class system itself, poverty. I have a feeling we may encounter more…we’re still early in the book.
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Yes, it's an example of the extreme cynicism of this chapter (21). For all their finery, the women are objectified, and only seen as possession of their husbands to display his wealth. They might have been acquired and married because of their position in society, or their great beauty, but they might as well be prize cows!
Mrs. Merdle was the only individual whose name thus became "The Bosom", (definite article) as that was her sole function: to be a display stand for his jewels. Hers was the most extensive (i.e. he was the richest man there) which Mr. Merdle:
“provided … with a nest of crimson and gold some fifteen years before. It was not a bosom to repose upon, but it was a capital bosom to hang jewels upon. Mr Merdle wanted something to hang jewels upon, and he bought it for the purpose.”
It displayed Mr. Merdle’s immense wealth for “everyone who was anyone” to see.
I think it's a very droll chapter! This info is in my summary - plus a fabulous photo of the duo from a recent dramatisation. The chapter is filled with information, but it is very sardonic, and I remember others too have found it wordy. I guess it's one to read a bit more carefully.
Please do read the summaries Janelle links to sometimes (thanks for this Janelle!) and the post afterwards - this one tells you the explanation for his name, and the previous one had a lovely painting and history of Little Dorrit's bridge!
What do you think his complaint is? And what do you think Mrs Merdle's son will be like, with a name like "Sparkler"?
In Chapter 22, I think we’re seeing clear signs that Arthur and Amy are falling in love or am I wrong? I hate the thought that pressure will be put on Amy to marry the dim witted, though sincere, Chivery boy. I also hate the predatory behaviour of the Dorrit men, leeching money out of Arthur because they know he’s a soft touch.The discussion of Chapter 21 was really helpful and gave me more insight that my initial reading of it did. Thanks all :)
Chapter 22 we have Mrs Chivery introduced and her son is heartbroken, although I don’t know why she thinks Arthur will be able to help. And if we didn’t already have low opinions of William and Tip, they use poor Maggy to beg for money from Arthur. A pretty low act. This seems a rather anticlimactic chapter for Dickens to end the instalment with. I suppose there’s the hint of Arthur and Amy having a relationship but he calls her ‘my child’ all the time, not very romantic!
I’m still catching up, though I have read Little Dorrit about 30yrs ago. My problem with Dickens is that I keep going off the themes and into a tangent over his linguistics.I couldn’t begin to count (I bet somebody has, though) the number of times Dickens gives inanimate characteristics to his characters with great affect (wooden, leather, boot etc). So, he or she can be ‘as coldly as a woman of snow’. But I also like his use of personification; here he’s at it with the elements in Little Dorrit (but he does this right throughout his works)
The snow goes about ‘his’ business ‘haunting’, the sky is ‘fervid’, it ‘stares’ or ‘shows’ , it can look ‘young’ and ‘gloomy’, and be ‘placid’. Clouds can ‘’race by’, ‘whistle through’, they can hurry’, be ‘disastrous’. Wind can have ‘a mind to blow the dead citizens out of their graves’, you can be pursued by a ‘moaning wind’, there’s also the possessive ‘Merdle wind’. While rain can ‘swoop to beat the Southwalk smoke into the jail’, it can be a ‘common rain’ that does it, it can be a ‘tired’ rain and in harsher moments he can be a ‘furious’ rain.
He tells us that we are ‘coldly watched’ by the stars, and that they can be ‘suspected of casting off so feeble a spark’. And we are also informed that the sun, raises ‘his’ full disc and ‘touched’ and ‘climbed’ and is an ‘honest’ sun, and able to ‘see’ Mr Dorrit’s equipage as well as ‘see’ him at Calias.
Makes me feel paranoid when I step outside - wonderful.
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And welcome to this re-run. I love that you're commenting on both threads in tandem at the moment :) Another member (Laura) is also reading at a different speed and joining in when it coincides.
Sean,Those are obviously very beautiful thoughts and not easily described by one like me who is reading Dickens for the first time. I do love how he animates inanimate things and gives them personalities almost - becoming characters themselves. You have provided some lovely examples.
There is so much to glean from reading Dickens that I never feel that I'll ever get everything, especially with one read. I recently said this in a review I wrote of a Faulkner novel (my first) and he was influenced by Dickens among others. This group and these organized reads whether group read or buddy read are so wonderful for this very reason. Thanks for your insights and I hope you'll continue to join in.
It’s hard not to feel sorry for Amy. She is stuck in the midst of a very selfish family.I was appalled that Mrs Chivery intimated that she turned down her son because she couldn’t leave her father. I was so hoping that Arthur would not believe her. I do think Amy has fallen in love with him, but I don’t think Arthur realizes his feelings are love yet. He keeps calling her “ my child” as Janelle mentioned.
Antionette, I like your analysis of the possible ’love’ brewing with Amy and Arthur. I have to believe Arthur doesn’t realize his feelings yet and Amy hasn’t vocalized hers yet but she does act love sick.
Have I found the happy family I was looking for in the Chiverys? I realize there is something not quite right with the son, John. But Mr. and Mrs. Chivery at least are good parents. At least they seem to have their son's interests at heart.There is definitely an inkling that Arthur is falling for Amy. Still not sure how Amy feels.
Loved Maggy's line when she says "It ain't my fault. I must do what I'm told. They ought to be ashamed of themselves for telling me" . Indeed Maggy, they should be very ashamed of how they treat you, and how they treat others as well.
On reading this chapter, I felt the first inkling that Amy was beginning to have feelings for Arthur. But I recall Arthur wondering if Amy had someone she cared for as a reason not to accept young Chivery. He seems a bit oblivious but by the end of the chapter I began to wonder if he might be starting to recognize some feelings of his own.I’m sure Amy is embarrassed by her family and knows what Maggy brought to Arthur. This sort of behavior might make her feel unworthy.
LINK to Chapter 23 summaryThis summary has a great Phiz illustration of Mr F’s aunt and Flora arriving at Arthur’s office.
I really enjoyed Flora and Mr F’s aunt visiting Arthur. I haven’t seen a tv or film version of this but for me, Mr F’s aunt is Liz Smith (who played Letitia in The Vicar of Dibley). It was a great comedic scene.The imagery of Pancks as a tug is wonderful. Mr Casby arrives at the factory
in the wake of Pancks. Pancks opened the door for him, towed him in, and retired to his own moorings in a corner.
He then seems to be answering for Mr Casby when the Dorrits are discussed. Is he making sure that Mr Casby doesn’t say anything he shouldn’t?
Why is Pancks after information on the Dorrits? His intentions seem good but I can’t imagine what they are. Have I missed something?
The chapter finishes with Pancks rent collecting:-
Perspiring and puffing and darting about……..and becoming hotter and dingier every moment, he lashed the tide of the Yard into a most agitated and turbid state. It had not settled down into calm water again, full two hours after he had been seen fuming away on the horizon at the top of the steps.
I loved all of your thoughts Fiona. Pancks does seem to have good intentions here so maybe he’s changing in my mind from being harsh before. That last line showed Mr. Casby in a new light - another hypocrite- ugh.
I am very suspicious of both Casby and Panck, especially so after the final paragraph where Casby tells Panck he didn’t get enough money even after all the browbeating he did collecting rents that day. If Casby is in a bad way financially, Flora may not be as secure as she pretends. More people may be heading to Marshalsea. All those questions about Little Dorrit worried me and I wished Arthur had kept his knowledge confidential. Panck is a debt collector, not exactly a noble profession. Arthur is more naive than Amy.
Sue, I had not thought about Mr. Casby maybe being low on money. That's interesting. I just thought Mr. Casby was hiding behind his hired man Pancks, so that he could continue to look like a benign gentleman, when really he's a greedy landowner. I think Arthur was careful to give Pancks only information that most people would know, or that Pancks could easily have found out from anyone in the Marshalsea. And now Arthur has Pancks agreeing to bring him any info he might find out about the Dorrits. Which is helpful, because Arthur has run out of sources for more info, and Pancks knows a bunch of people (or should I say, intimidates lots of people).
I have the same questions Fiona. What's up with Pancks' interest in the Dorrits? Could he be romantically interested in Amy?? Probably not. But what else? Well, its a delicious mystery :-)
I thought it was interesting that Mr. Meagles interpreted Daniel Doyce as "odd" simply because he was doing the honorable thing by letting Arthur come to his own conclusions about being partners. Its as if Mr. Meagles can't recognize honor when its in front of him.
Bridget, you’re right. I forgot about Arthur’s request to Pancks to bring him any information he may learn. I still don’t find Pancks to be trustworthy and also wonder about why he is interested in Amy. But aren’t we all.
Pancks has become a most interesting character in this chapter. Perhaps he will solve the intricate mystery of all Mr Dorrit’s debts.He’s very observant and has much written in his book.
Maybe so, Janelle. I see Flora in a different light now. She’s kind and she’s funny. I loved her comment about Arthur’s mother - that she ought to have been mother to the man in the iron mask!What is the fairy story about? It seems very personal to Amy.
Flora is nice but how she talks! It’s nonstop. I think Amy is overpowered by it and believes Flora when she says that now Arthur is back, they are destined to be together. Amy doesn’t know that Flora is deluded. So the fairytale I think is about Amy, she’s the little woman working, Flora is the Princess and my guess for the shadow, it’s Amy’s feelings for Arthur.
An interesting analysis of the fairy tale, Janelle. I wouldn’t have thought of it. As for Flora, you’re quite right there too!
I loved this chapter. It was nice to see things from Dorrit's point of view again. Oh my gosh Fiona, I love your Flora comment. I'm sure she exhausts Amy, because she certainly exhausts me LOL!So many things to be curious about now. Great thoughts about the fairy tale Fiona and Janelle. I had been wondering if the shadow was an indication that Amy knows her father's secret (why he was sent to prison). But I like Janelle's idea better, that its her feelings for Arthur. That fits quite nicely with Amy crying, and not wanting to see Arthur. And didn't it feel like Amy was Cinderella locked in her Tower? Is Amy the true Princess?
Janelle, I interpreted the story the same was you did, with the shadow man being Amy’s true feelings for Arthur. One part of Flora’s long harangue of Amy struck me as a an intended “stay away from my man” type of warning, without being so blatant. During that scene we are told:‘Ask me not,’ said Flora, ‘if I love him still or if he still loves me or
what the end is to be or when, we are surrounded by watchful eyes
…wonder not therefore that even if I should seem comparatively
cold to Arthur or Arthur should seem comparatively cold to me we
have fatal reasons it is enough if we understand them hush!’
All of which Flora said with so much headlong vehemence as if she
believed it. There is not much doubt that when she worked herself
into full mermaid condition, she did actually believe whatever she
said in it. ….
‘Hush!’ repeated Flora, ‘I have now told you all…for Arthur’s sake
I will always be a friend to you…. You are very cold,’ said Flora,
changing to her own natural kind-hearted manner, and gaining
greatly by the change.
When I read this section, it seemed to me that the early part, much shortened here, was Flora’s attempt to lay her claim to Arthur. I think she has sought out Amy for this purpose, knowing that Arthur is much cooler in his response to her than he was 20 years ago. But once she lays her claim, she reverts to the nicer person she can be. (But I doubt that nice facade could last much buffeting.)
And I think Pancks knows what is going on, with all his snorts and odd comments and claims of fortune telling.
Sue - I agree that Flora is warning off Amy but isn’t it sad that someone with so much could see someone with so little as a threat? I’m not sure what Pancks is seeing or what his motive or intentions are. It’s very mysterious but I don’t feel his intentions are bad somehow.
Bridget - I love the image of Cinderella.
These are the jobs Pancks hands out at the dinner. Might be useful down the track. (Thanks Jean :) copied from the other thread)a churchyard in Bedfordshire
an Enquiry in York
a Church in London
a Family Bible
a Clerk at Durham
an old seafaring gentleman at Dunstable
a Stone
a Still-born Baby
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Fiona - there was a great discussion on the fairytale aspect of Amy Dorrit's story between these two chapters in the original thread. I do remember you had intended to read some of those posts for this buddy read ...
Hey all! I’ve been off my schedule since Sunday as am out of town in Galveston for a few days. I read yesterday’s chapter and the original thread but was so tired I want to reread. Have not abandoned you!!
Thanks, Jean. Sometimes it’s hard to find time for everything but I’ll have a look back when I can. I do find that section interesting.
Sue wrote: "Janelle, I interpreted the story the same was you did, with the shadow man being Amy’s true feelings for Arthur. One part of Flora’s long harangue of Amy struck me as a an intended “stay away from ..."Thanks for quoting that Sue. The way Flora drones on and on, its easy to miss these spots that really speak to her motives.
Janelle wrote: "These are the jobs Pancks hands out at the dinner. Might be useful down the track. (Thanks Jean :) copied from the other thread)a churchyard in Bedfordshire
an Enquiry in York
a Church in London
..."
Thanks so much for putting this list into our Buddy Thread, so we can refer back to it. I'm sure its going to be important.
Lori wrote: "Hey all! I’ve been off my schedule since Sunday as am out of town in Galveston for a few days. I read yesterday’s chapter and the original thread but was so tired I want to reread. Have not abandon..."Good to hear from you Lori, hope you had fun in Galveston!
Janelle - thanks for the list of ‘clues’. It’s all very Agatha Christie!I loved this chapter. Miss Ruggs is a hoot! I hope we see more of her. She clearly has a great sense of humour.
Pancks is back in tug mode - When he cast off the Patriarch at night, it was only to take an anonymous craft in tow, and labour away afresh in other waters. What is he up to? I’m intrigued.
""In the first place, they were vaguely persuaded that every foreigner had a knife about him; in the second, they held it to be a sound constitutional national axiom that he ought to go home to his own country." "In the third place, they had a notion that it was a sort of Divine visitation upon a foreigner that he was not an Englishman, and that all kinds of calamities happened to his country because it did things that England did not, and did not do things that England did." :))
Daniela - I loved these passages too. Dickens really takes the mickey out of the continuing English / British habit of patronising foreign nationals, speaking pidgin English to them VERY LOUDLY.
Daniel, I think Dickens wrote a fantastic description of national attitude here. It still resonates today!This was an interesting chapter. Pancks’ role is so open-ended at this point. No one we have been introduced to seems to be fully in his confidence. At first I thought it was Mr Casby but now we know he has a life very separate from Flora and her father. He is a man to watch. Is he going to be a agent of change for others, I won? Of change for the good? I just don’t get bad vibes off of him so far though he is certainly complicated.
And it’s nice to see Jean Baptist back but that must mean the evil one will be among the people we know soon. Then the good/evil divide will probably be more obvious. ( can’t remember the evil one’s name, mixing real and new one I guess)
Sue - I agree. Mr Rigaud won’t be far behind John Baptist.
Thanks for the name, Fiona :-). I’m curious to see who he aligns with. Then we will really begin to see motives and real feelings behind some of these puzzling people.
Mrs Gowan is a hateful, hateful person! I have not met such a hateful and vicious character since Mrs Van Hopper in Rebecca.
I’m a bit slow in catching up, work commitments blah, blah … and I’m still in the habit of scanning through the novel(s) to check out Dickens’ use of literary (or linguistic) styles when I come across them, for example, when he uses personification he seems to distinguish between human characteristics and human traits. See how Dickens describes houses that mirror their occupants’ characteristics? Or is he describing the occupants that mirror the houses?
Sometimes It hard to distinguish whether Dickens is mocking the character, or the house of the character, or both: thus, of Flintwich’s head not just being ‘awry’, but his body being ‘one-sided, crab-like’, and that his “foundations had yielded at about the same time as those of the house, and he ought to have been propped up in a similar manner [like the ‘Tom-all-alones’].”
Or of houses that seem terminally ill with TB, or decrepit and crippled:
“Rickety dwellings of undoubted fashion, but of a capacity to hold nothing comfortably except a dismal smell, looked like the last result of the great mansions' breeding in-and-in; and, where their little supplementary bows and balconies were supported on thin iron columns, seemed to be scrofulously resting upon crutches.”
It’s the same with the respective character’s furniture, too, as in the case of Arthur’s return to England when he enters his mother’s room - here, after every adjective that Dickens uses to describe the furniture you could substitute the noun ‘Mrs Clennam’
“Meagre … uglier … grimmer … worn-out. Its movables were ugly old chairs with worn-out seats, and ugly old chairs … threadbare patternless carpet, a maimed table, a crippled wardrobe … fire-irons like the skeleton of a set deceased, a washing-stand that looked as if it had stood for ages … bedstead with four bare atomies of posts, each terminating in a spike, as if for the dismal accommodation of lodgers who might prefer to impale themselves.”
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Since you've started late, I'll explain that at some point pretty soon, Lori or Bridget will take over from Janelle, in linking what they think important from our original group read (including this type of observation). Then the final third we'll also have a change.
I'd need to refer back, but as I remember Lori was up next :) It's a way of organising reads which are for longer than a month, since there is no actual leader. It also means that it's easy to keep pace with the info there. Everyone intends to do this at the start, but as Fiona has just said, sometimes she is just too busy. Links make it a lot easier, and leave more time for discussing these interesting aspects, (not just "who did what").
Glad you enjoyed a little break Lori! And good to see you back :)
Hi JeanBeing a bit on the dense side, I don’t easily catch on to what’s being explained to me. Am I doing right in posting this kind of observation - that is, not strictly pertinent to any particular chapter or time period - here? Is it better for all if I post this type of comment in a more specific thread?
Dickensians!
Books mentioned in this topic
Bleak House (other topics)The Holly-Tree (other topics)
The Chimes (other topics)
Little Dorrit (other topics)
Dombey and Son (other topics)
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Charles Dickens (other topics)Charles Dickens (other topics)
Charles Dickens (other topics)
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Charles Dickens (other topics)
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That's so true Lori. Great insight there. Also liked your idea about how this book starts out in a prison, so it is a much darker novel. Maybe there won't be any happy families here afterall. But with Dickens, who knows.