Dickensians! discussion
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Little Dorrit
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Buddy Read of Little Dorrit mid-Sept onwards with Janelle, Bridget, Lori and others
Daniela wrote: "Mrs Gowan is a hateful, hateful person! I have not met such a hateful and vicious character since Mrs Van Hopper in Rebecca."Nice comparison Daniela!
Sean wrote: "I’m a bit slow in catching up, work commitments blah, blah … and I’m still in the habit of scanning through the novel(s) to check out Dickens’ use of literary (or linguistic) styles when I come acr..."Sean, I loved your observations about the literary style. Dickens writing is so descriptive, its fun to scan through and find gems.
This connection between the characters and their houses shows up throughout the book, and every time I read through a passage like that, I think Dickens must have had so much fun writing it. It feels playful to me.
You pointed out some of my favorite descriptions of the Clennam House -- the house is slanted, and so is Flintwinch (both physically and morally I suspect).
We just read Chapter 26 where we get to meet the odd Gowan family. They are connected to the Barnacles and Stiltstalkings, and their house makes about as much sense as the "Circumlocution Office". My favorite passage was this:
The venerable inhabitants of that venerable pile seemed ... to be encamped there like a sort of civilized gypsies ... screens not half high enough, which made dining rooms out of arched passages, and warded off obscure corners where footboys slept at night with their heads among the knives and forks; curtains which called upon you to believe they didn't hide anything; panes of glass which requested you not to see them
That last line about the panes of glass is my absolute favorite. So while its not "personification" it is a mirroring of the surroundings reflecting the lives of the inhabitants. And its just brilliant (in my opinion;-)
Yes, Bridget, that’s a good point about the houses being paralleled with the moral fiber of the inhabitants, and he takes us through this device when he relates to the houses (and therefore the characters) on Harley Street, Cavendish Square.Here, in chapter 22, he’s at it when describing the Merdle's (and their kind) residence:
“Everybody knows how like the street the two dinner-rows of people who take their stand by the street will be.”
And that sets the tone nicely, he goes on:
“... expressionless uniform … houses, all to be knocked at and rung at in the same form, all approachable by the same dull steps, all fended off by the same pattern of railing, all with the same impracticable fire-escapes, the same inconvenient fixtures in their heads, and everything without exception to be taken at a high valuation”.
Dickens is showing that typically things don’t have to ‘be right’, but they do have to ‘look right‘.
and finally:
“... so drearily out of repair … stuccoed house … newly-fronted … corner house … angular rooms … blinds always down … hatchment always up…. nobody will take … to be had a bargain … showy house … taken for life by the disappointed gentleman, and which does not suit him at all”
With Dickens you always know the character by the description of his/her residence, and vice versa
Part of the Little Dorrit theme is money- or wealth-worship: the ‘love of money is …’, and all that.In chapter 21 Dorrit is sat by her father, stitching his new shirts, while at the same time there was a dinner being hosted at the Harley Street Merdle residence. And at that dinner Merdle, or rather his wealth, was being extolled, exalted and venerated by Society.
Dickens was no fan of the current government, I think that’s pretty obvious, and among other things, he thought it corrupt. So, in discussing Merdle the man:
“Treasury said he was a new power in the country, and would be able to buy up the whole House of Commons.”
When Dickens alludes ‘buying’ the House of Commons, is he being ambiguous? Do you think he was referring to the tangible sale, ie seats, mace, furniture etc? Or did he mean buying (bribing) House of Common’s MPs?
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I suspect you know it's not buying the furniture, Sean :D
In many of his works Charles Dickens referred to corruption in the law - either institutional or by individuals.
Wealthy landowners tended to skew the voting, as they had small electorates who would vote for them. Only landowners or gentleman could vote, and of course women could not vote. (Interestingly though, they could until the 1832 Reform Act! That was when women were excluded from voting in Parliamentary elections, because a voter was defined in the Act as a male person! But that's not really what you were asking.)
When Little Dorrit was published, in 1856, the majority of working men still could not vote (and no women) - only the rich and powerful. So a man like Merdle would have enormous influence in placing a parliamentary candidate of his choice in a rotten borough, and thereby influencing the British politics of the day.
It certainly seems that Henry Gowan (and his mother) view Arthur as a challenger for Pet. Such hard players they both are. And for the regal mother to insist Pet’s family were entrapping her “innocent” son.” I was surprised that Arthur challenged her view so strongly. Now the big question—-will all of this endear Pet more in Arthur’s eyes?
Sean your comments are great and add to the discussion :)Can you put what chapter your quotes are from when they’re not from the chapter of the day, please. I assume they’re all from before where we are up to.
Yes Sue! That’s the way it’s looking isn’t it? Arthur thinks that Gowan has taken him to dinner to intimidate him and warn him off. Arthur’s trying so hard not to be interested in her. Going by the start of the chapter, his trying must be obvious to Doyce, who makes it clear he doesn’t like Gowan.
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Are you switching after chapter 29? That's the end of installment VIII. Then either Lori or Bridget would take us over the end of book 1 and switch again part way through book 2. Or are you planning to start off all the chapters in the first book?
I don’t know Jean, I’m not sure there was a plan.
Janelle, I think that’s the only strong opinion Doyce has made in the novel so far and I felt that Arthur should have been agreeing with him throughout instead of being so cautious in his responses.
It was such an awkward conversation between friends, wasn’t it Sue?
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Well unless you three come up with something else, how about this:
Lori:
IX – August 1856 (chapters 30–32)
X – September 1856 (chapters 33–36)
Book 2:
XI – October 1856 (chapters 1–4)
XII – November 1856 (chapters 5–7)
XIII – December 1856 (chapters 8–11)
XIV – January 1857 (chapters 12–14)
Bridget:
XV – February 1857 (chapters 15–18)
XVI – March 1857 (chapters 19–22)
XVII – April 1857 (chapters 23–26)
XVIII – May 1857 (chapters 27–29)
XIX-XX – June 1857 (chapters 30–34)
You'll have done by far the biggest whack, at 8 installments up to the end of ch 29. Sorry to stick this in the middle of the thread, but I honestly assumed you three would have divided it up already! I'll add it at the beginning of the thread too, if you like.
I’m looking forward to so many different things now since there are several threads very alive in the novel. Amazing how Dickens kept all these characters and plot lines straight.
Sorry Jean I clearly misunderstood, I thought I was doing it the whole way through. It’s really not a problem for me. But I’ll let Lori and Bridget comment on your plan.
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In these middle novels particularly, he is still introducing new characters well into the middle of the book. There are some delightful ones you haven't met yet! And they all have different but interweaving threads. So in a way, it's no use asking ourselves which is the "main story" as there are several equally interesting ones. Yet in a dramatisation of a novel by Charles Dickens, it seems as if there is one story, with one hero(ine), because the adapter has to make a simplified storyline for the screen.
Reading the book is a different experience entirely (even though I love watching adaptations too :) )
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Really? I thought you were all happy to do links to the important posts in the group read threads (remembering our buddy reads discussion thread), and share the work. That's why I titled it as I did, and added everyone else in the first comment :)
No need to apologise if we got our wires crossed. I know Lori and Bridget both read those posts too, and it's good to have other perspectives on what is important, as well :) It's an awful lot to expect one member to do this every single day, for the best part of 3 months :(
If you're keen to start it off each day though Janelle, (and that has worked well thank you!) then an alternative is for Lori and Bridget to keep an eye out for additional info to share (link or mention) from the group read, perhaps on the timetable I suggested.
Just say here please everyone :) It's past midnight now here, so I'll come back tomorrow.
I’m back from my trip and need to catch up reading but am happy to take over as Jean has suggested starting at Ch 30. I guess I misunderstand like Janelle. I’m sorry for that. Janelle and Bridget, what ever works for everyone is good with me.
Thanks Lori, I hope you enjoyed your break :)
After the summary there’s a bit of discussion about Tattycoram’s ethnicity and also Miss Wade, possible lesbian?LINK
Janelle wrote: "Sorry Jean I clearly misunderstood, I thought I was doing it the whole way through. It’s really not a problem for me. But I’ll let Lori and Bridget comment on your plan."Janelle, you are doing such a marvelous job, I would be so happy to let you continue. I remember I offered to share the lead at the beginning, but my only intention was to offer so no one would feel overburdened. Since Janelle is still up for it, and its working so well lets not change anything. Thanks Jean for getting us to sort all this out :-)
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But no doubt she'll comment here. It seemed the quickest way since there are 4 of us talking, but I'll delete all this once it's sorted out. Thanks!
Comments on the book welcome, of course!
After reading Chapter 27, my first thought was Oh Arthur, how can you be so sensitive to Amy Dorrit's suffering, and yet so blind to Tattycoram's situation? Also, how is it he sees Daniel Doyce so clearly, and yet can't quite see Mr. Meagles short comings?
Even with her cruel smile, and her cold demeanor, I still really like Ms. Wade. Is that because I'm looking at this with a modern perspective? I'm not sure, but I do think Dickens intends for us to sympathize with Ms. Wade.
Bionic Jean wrote: "I've just this minute messaged Janelle, Bridget, and Lori is happy to do a turn ... I'm concerned as 3 months is such a long time plus Janelle went straight into this from leading her "short" read ..."That's a good point Jean, three months is a long time. I'm available to take the last stint, if that's what we decide.
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After this one, I'll add a rule to the buddy reads thread that leading is shared, and nobody hosts a buddy read for longer than a month, since we are having some longer buddy reads than normal in "Dickensians!" :)
But if you don't really fancy it, then we could split it between two, not three, and Lori starts a little later? After all I'm mindful that you did a great job in leading our penultimate short read, just before Janelle's, so may not welcome this so soon, really.
Bionic Jean wrote: "Thanks Bridget :) I've just looked and Janelle has been "on duty" starting off the days comments since August 24th! So even with the plan I suggested yesterday she will have been doing it for 2 mon..."Its not that I don't fancy the last stint, its more that I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. I'd be happy to do it. I just really admire the job Janelle has been doing. She did say up stream that she wanted to see it through to the end. I'm sure she will comment here and let us know what she thinks.
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I do understand of course, and hope you all know how much I appreciate all you do for "Dickensians!" I don't want anyone to feel they are taken for granted! Equally I had to ask you Bridget, to be sure that you were still happy to take the final section - and not just assume you would.
Janelle knows I think she's doing a stellar job! And I want everyone to be happy and want the best for our group. I'm hoping all three of you will lead our short group reads again (Lori has yet to experience that LOL! In a way it's more work than a buddy read, but you have a freer hand ... I think each is fun :) )
Bridget and Janelle, I am up for doing whatever is best for Janelle and the entire buddy read. I think if she wants to continue, it's her call. I am completely happy to take over at anytime (with some tutoring help in learning how to do the linking) at any time. I enjoy reading the original threads and have tried to mention important notes from those and I am willing to continue this and even "beef it up" more to add more interest to the threads that might draw more into the conversation. I don't want to step on any toes and at the same time don't want to burden Janelle if she needs a break. 3 months plus so soon after her summer story is quite long. edit: I certainly do not imply that our conversation isn't beefy enough! Just saying that I could beef up my own comments using the original thread.
Jean, I am sorry for any misunderstanding on my part from the beginning. I suppose the three of us should have chatted before in order to get everything sorted as to what our expectations were. Sorry. If there is a next time, we can organize better. I do like your idea for the new rule for Buddy reads. It makes great sense.
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Bridget - I like Miss Wade too, although I didn’t miss the reference to the smile that only appears on cruel faces. Is this the narrator perhaps misunderstanding Miss Wade or are we being warned of her true nature?
Good question Fiona. Even though I like her, its hard to know whether to trust Ms. Wade right now. I like that she sees the injustices being done to Tattycoram, but the narrator does seem to be warning us about her as well.There is a good discussion on the original thread about Ms. Wade being a lesbian. Janelle gave us a link to Jean's background info on that and its really good.
There were certainly lots of fireworks in this chapter.
I too like Miss Wade, or perhaps I like the stance she is taking here of helping Harriet to stand up for herself. I agree that Arthur seems especially blind about this situation. Maybe the primary difference is that Amy is a part of her family, strange as her family is and Alfa’s the prison is, and deserves praise and help because of what she does for others,On the other hand, Harriet/Tattycorm doesn’t show suitable regard, respect and thanks for being “saved” from the orphanage. Arthur doesn’t see how the Meagles have degraded her to a very childish role. Likewise, it seems to me that Amy is seen as the child of a man who was likely of a “better” social class before his financial downfall. Somehow this must elevate Amy. Of course there may be unconscious motivations at play with Arthur that cause Amy to stand apart, i.e. his unrecognized feelings. One last difference between Amy and Harriet is their behavior. Amy acts respectable by being so self-effacing while Harriet acts both childish and wild because she is treated as an out of control child.
After I finished my message I happened to think that final sentence still applies today. Women are still treated according to how they behave. With our modern attitudes, we chafe at that. Amy and Harriet were simply behaving according to the way life had treated the and in their environments.
I like Miss Wade too. I think that’s a modern response to her though. She’s standing up for herself and Tattycoram. But Victorian men strongly disliked independent women, so I think she was probably disapproved of at the time. Mr Meagles and Arthur definitely don’t like her and think she’s a bad influence.
Lori if you’re set to take over from Chapter 30 that would be great. I will enjoy the lower responsibility :))
Aside on my first post above, I wish I knew what my autocorrect was correcting. I have no idea what that part of the sentence about Amy was supposed to say :-)
Janelle wrote: "Lori if you’re set to take over from Chapter 30 that would be great. I will enjoy the lower responsibility :))"No problem, Janelle! Can I message you to ask how to do the links? Or is there a tutorial on GR somewhere?
I have today's chapter to catch up on still which is 27, tomorrow (Friday) is 28, Saturday will be 29 and then Sunday I will begin with Chapter 30.
Doesn’t it feel like Miss Wade has an agenda of her own that we are not privy too yet? I hope she is not using Harriet for her own purposes. So many pieces that are starting to come together.
I agree Antoinette, we don’t have Miss Wades full story yet.Lori, I’ll message you.
Lori wrote: "Janelle wrote: "Lori if you’re set to take over from Chapter 30 that would be great. I will enjoy the lower responsibility :))"No problem, Janelle! Can I message you to ask how to do the links? O..."
Lori, let me know if you need more time to get caught up. We can swap, and I'll take over on Chapter 30.
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You can go into edit on your profile and switch it back of course. Several of us have done this.
*Dickens’ 1851-7 novels are said to be the darker ones, and in Little Dorrit the reader can be forgiven for taking ‘dark’ literally as well as in the figurative senseFor example, throughout the whole of the text in Little Dorrit, there’s something in excess of 100 references to ‘dark’ and its modifications ‘darker’, ‘darkness’, etc, as with ‘shadow’, and ‘cry’. But fewer than 100 references to ‘laugh(ed ter ing)
Hardly a passage goes by without some kind of ‘darkness’ or lurking ‘shadow’. So: "a grave dark man of forty", "Dark and miserable as ever" ,"lying idle in the dark to rust", "Dull and dark he found it", "The dark mystery", "down into the dark valley of the prison", "resume his own darker place.", "over the darker side of her character", "on the darker road of life?", "the darkest savage creeps out of his hole", " he was oftener in its darkest places ", "saw a moving shadow among the street lamps", "shadow of uneasy observation", "the shadow of the Marshalsea wall", "peopled with ugly old shadows", "striving with the prison shadows.", "The sly shadows which seemed to dart out of hiding".
Though the novel has about half as many references to laughter, I still think Little Dorrit highlights Dickens' humour at its finest in some parts
Chapter 28 was so beautiful, and so sad... So Arthur had something for Minnie in his heart and only now he is really giving her up... What a beautiful image that of the roses going away with the river in the moonlight.But what about Doyce? What is he thinking of Minnie's engagement? I hope we will know soon. And I also would like to know the details: what happened? How is it that Minnie is engaged?
I had two Dickens favourites so far, first Bleak House and second A Tale of Two Cities. Little Dorrit is going to be third or perhaps even second.
Daniela - I agree. This chapter has many beautiful, tender, and sad passages in it. Again, the presence of the river / flowing water is important. The image of the roses floating away will stay with me a long time. The last sentence of the chapter is a profound description of loss.While the flowers, pale and unreal in the moonlight, floated away upon the river; and thus do greater things that once were in our breasts, and near our hearts, flow from us to the eternal seas.
Caught up finally and glad to be on the same page with everyone again! Thoughts on Miss Wade and Harriet/Tatttycoram: Miss Wade is the type of independent woman that Victorian men did not approve of and we don't know her full story yet. There were indications about her from the link Janelle provided and she seems to be seducing Harriet away from the Meagles. What I'm not sure about is how she provides for herself and what Harriet will be expected to do now? What motive does Miss Wade have in luring Harriet away? She has not been presented in a very positive light. I'm not sure I really like her at all but I will hold out to see what develops. But I'm not thinking it will be good for Tattycoram. Miss Wade makes a very unusual and mysterious comment to Mr. Meagles at the end of the chapter that leaves me curious:
'As it is the last time I shall have the honour,' she said, 'and as you have spoken of not knowing what I am, and also of the foundation of my influence here, you may now know that it is founded in a common cause. What your broken plaything is as to birth, I am. She has no name, I have no name. Her wrong is my wrong. I have nothing more to say to you.'
And the final statement made by Miss Wade at the end of Ch 27 leaves me to believe that she knows something about Minnie/Pet and Henry Gowan. And it doesn't sound like she's wishing them well.
So, Minnie is more deep than we had realized and also more considerate. She knew that Arthur had feelings for her, and she kindly met him so she could break the news to him personally. She definitely went up in my estimation of her. I wonder if she has met Henry’s mother- that would make me change my mind, for sure..I did love the poignancy of this chapter- the flowing river and the roses flowing away. Feelings do not flow away that easily though.
Dickensians!
Books mentioned in this topic
Bleak House (other topics)The Holly-Tree (other topics)
The Chimes (other topics)
Little Dorrit (other topics)
Dombey and Son (other topics)
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Charles Dickens (other topics)Charles Dickens (other topics)
Charles Dickens (other topics)
Charles Dickens (other topics)
Charles Dickens (other topics)
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Typically, buddy reads or readalongs in most groups would be casual chats about a novel, without much analysis (I hope this is fair to say!) but that specific group's group reads might have more analytical content. Not all groups' reads do though - there are plenty of groups where the discussion consists of "I'm looking forward to this", and "I've finished it - it was good" types of comments.
There's nothing wrong with that of course - unless it's all you get :( "Dickensians!" is hopefully a bit different :)
Because most of the regularly contributing members here are keen on Charles Dickens - or soon become so (!) - and some are very knowledgeable to start with, we have great discussions for our group reads. And this buddy read has chosen to parallel the timing of the original group read, so as to also go into it a bit more deeply, rather than just "reading for the story" as say spending just a fortnight or month on the book might do.
So I'm sure your comments will be appreciated by this small, top-notch "subset" of "Dickensians!" members. All you need to be careful of here is that your examples do not contain spoilers for future chapters. And if you could also copy one of your thoughtful posts about Charles Dickens' s style, etc., to one of the original group read threads now and then, that would add to the fantastic resource we have for future reads. Plus those who are not in this buddy read may well respond too. I hope you are able to do this, if time allows.
Thanks!