Dickensians! discussion
David Copperfield - Group Read 1
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May - June 2020: David Copperfield: chapters 45 - 64
Jean: I wholeheartedly agree with Sara. Your summaries, illustrations, and analysis have taken the group read to new heights. I’m believe you’ve set the gold standard for this type of discussion.
I read the last four chapters all at once since I had to know what happened to all the characters who now seem like real people to me. I always love the chapters with Mr Peggotty since he is such a caring man. There are lots of coincidences in these later chapters, but Dickens tied up all the loose ends.Thank you, Jean, for all the effort you put in to make this a wonderful reading experience for the group. I've been touched by Dickens' magic, and am excited about our next big read.
Mod
Yes, well spotted how unlikely this would have been, after Mr Mell had been so humiliated and degraded there.
Mod
This was a nice wrap-up chapter. I'm looking forward to the discussion on the entire book after we finish it tomorrow.I also read ahead on the last couple of chapters because I was about to start another large book. If not for that, I would have kept to the chapter a day format, which I really like. I hope we continue that format in our future reads.
I did enjoy seeing Mr. Mell again. I also thought it was unlikely that he'd name his school after Salem House. But, since the original readers haven't heard mention of Mr. Mell in over a year, it is a way of putting him in context again for the readers. His role was a small one and, perhaps, easily forgotten.
Dickens seems to imply that England holds back those of lower rank or the poor, in general. In England, the Mells and Micawbers of England weren't given the same opportunities Mells and Micawbers of Australia. Neither would have reached the status they did had they remained in England. The opportunity just didn't exist for them in England.
That doesn't seem to hold true for the Peggottys. They had a warm, middle class kind of life in both England and Australia.
I seem to be a misfit here when it comes to taking the grass for Emily. I didn't really like that scene. But it fits. Once again, Emily gets what she wants.
As you can all see, I'm not a fan of Emily. She seems to be able to do what she wants and not pay a price. I'm not a fan, in any book, of protagonists who do the deeds, while others somehow pay the price. I feel Emily falls into this category (but I may be mistaken; its just my take on it).
Did I miss a reference to her child? Was there one? Was there not one? It seems odd that after 10 years Peggotty wouldn't mention the child at all.
Petra, I wondered about Emily's child as well. Was she pregnant when she left England?
I also wondered about the child. I am guessing that because the neighbors thought Emily was widowed, that she had a child. Otherwise, why would they think she was ever married.
Wasn't that statement stated as the neighbours believed she had been either in a failed relationship or widowed? Had "widowed" only been mentioned, I would have thought this was because of a child. However, in these times, it's unlikely that the neighbours would have considered a "failed relationship" and still accepted Emily. That stigma was why she left England in the first place. Because of this speculation (of a failed relationship), I questioned whether there was a child.
….or, perhaps Australians were more open minded about children born out of wedlock?
Mod
In a similar way Mr Peggotty only referred to the deaths of Steerforth and Ham very obliquely:
"if she had know’d then what Mas’r Davy kep from us so kind and thowtful, ‘tis my opinion she’d have drooped away."
If Mr Peggotty cannot bring himself to mention Steerforth - or even his dear Ham - by name, then surely nobody would have been so crass as to bring up the subject of Emily's child.
I also wondered if the child had died, as she is so sorrowful, and spends time in the company of the other children, but there is no real suggestion of this.
Perhaps her spending so much time with other children is another sign that a child does exist. The child would spend time with other children and Emily would be there watching the child. Okay, I'm convinced that a child exists. Dickens has hidden that well. I think a reader could go through this book and miss this child entirely.
Mod
It's interesting, how you think of Emily. Perhaps we're supposed to think that she is doing penance by never really having a life of her own? She seems just a shadow here, living under the protection of her uncle. Yet Martha, who in the morality of the time, fell even further, has made amends, and now has a fulfilling life in the Bush with her new husband.
"I'm not a fan, in any book, of protagonists who do the deeds, while others somehow pay the price."
I feel exactly the same! Most readers seem to love Becky Sharp in Vanity Fair, but I can't see anything to like about her at all! I think it's a good novel, but I don't admire any one of those characters!
I'm glad you liked the pacing - I agree - and think we should talk about that to make sure of the general feeling when we have our poll :)
Jean, I think I'm still bummed that Ham died. Had he lived, I may not be so hard on Emily. I'm also not thrilled at Dickens for killing Ham off, either. LOL. Thing is, she chooses to be a shadow. She had the opportunity to marry but didn't. Perhaps she's learned that when she makes life choices it affects other people's lives, so she makes choices now that do not involve other people's lives? She can be happy by herself, with her child and, later, grandchildren. She'll always be taken care of.
I forgot to mention how happy I am for Martha. I wish her a long, happy life.
I am in agreement with Petra on Emily, although I recognize that she had a difficult time between being spirited off by Steerforth and being rescued by Dan Peggotty. She did not expect to ever be able to take up her life again, so maybe she is grateful and repentant. No one can change the past.I believe there is a child.
And, oh, Jean, I am so in your camp on Becky Sharp. What ever is there to admire in that one?
Sara, would she have had a difficult time while with Steerforth? Surely she enjoyed herself and her new "posh" travelling life? It wasn't until he left her that she had a difficult time, I think. We can't really be sure but I feel that life must have been tilted more towards the "good" side while she was with Steerforth. Her difficult time came from when he left until she was reunited with Dan Peggotty. I did feel for her when we heard that part of the story, especially considering her pregnancy. I shudder to think what sort of life she and the child would have had with his rescue.
I think I would have liked more responsibility for Ham in some manner. I don't know what and, as I said, had he not died I would feel differently. I feel he got shafted.
I’m on the not liking Becky Sharp train too. I don’t really hate or love Emily, she was what she was; Agnes’ name make me think of an “agneau” (lamb) which I thought she had some characteristics with. I guess my favorite women are Aunt Betsey and Peggotty.
I wasn't sure she was having such a good time, Petra. The letters she sent home did not sound like she was happy, and I think she failed to understand how much being separated from the family and living with her desertion would affect her. Weren't there references to Steerforth being upset because she wasn't any fun? I need to go back and see if I can find the reference. It would undoubtedly have come from Littimer. I'm guessing the honeymoon was over fairly quickly. She left still with the hope that he would "make her a lady". She can't have been very far from home before she was disabused of that notion.And, I completely agree that Ham is the character whose fate bothers me the most. I would have liked to have seen him with a better fate, the way Martha got a better fate; but life is like that, sometimes the good suffer the most.
Jean - I was also touched by the same lines you mentioned from the scene where David and Agnes declare their love for each other, also the fact that Dora told Agnes that only she could occupy the vacant space in David's heart. I just watched the movie a couple of days ago (the one with Maggie Smith and Daniel Radcliffe) and that part brought tears to my eyes. I ended up reading ahead at some point toward the end after sticking to one chapter per day through most of the book. However, I really like the idea of reading and discussing one chapter a day and I hope we continue that with future reads.
This was a great discussion. Between Jean's daily summaries and the comments of others I picked up a lot that I would have missed otherwise.
I am sympathetic towards Emily. I think Steerforth probably led her to expect that their relationship would be more lasting than he ever intended it to be. Granted she was probably influenced to a certain extent by her own wishes, but she is certainly not the first or the last to make that mistake. And sorry guys, but I just don't think she had a child.
Dickens continues to make references to the writers' craft and the fame an author can achieve through the work of writing. This chapter starts off with David acknowledging his fame and fortune and Mr. Micawber's letter confirms the author's world wide renown even in "remote" Australia. Aunt Betsey in the previous chapter also mentions "I never thought, when I did read books, what work it was to write them." To which David replies, "It's work enough to read them, sometimes ...as to the writing, it has its own charms." Betsey then mentions those charms - ambition, love of approbation, sympathy. This reminds me also of when David revisits Mr. Omer, Dickens pokes fun when Omer says he has taken up reading, complimenting David's writing expressions and having read "every word - every word" and not feeling sleepy at all.
I have to confess also to reading the last chapter ahead of schedule, but I'll re-read it for tomorrow. Jean, I also thank you for your excellent oversight for this read. Your chapter summaries, added info, and insightful comments (and those of the other readers) made this book a joy to read. I got much more from reading the book with everyone in the group than if I had read it alone.
I think Steerforth would have gotten bored with Emily quickly and neglected her or even seduced other women. And although Emily wanted to be a lady, she wouldn't have fit into society and might have felt very lonely. She was used to being petted by everyone around her (like Dora in a way.)As for the mysterious child, it reminds me of the theory biographer Claire Tomalin put forth that Dickens and Nelly Ternan had a child. Dickens made a lot of trips to France at one point and it seems Nelly was there. That would be a convenient way to cover up pregnancy and childbirth. Tomalin's theory is that the child died, which wouldn't be unlikely in those times.
Mod
Mod
Like France-Andrée, I don't have strong feelings either way. One possibility is that she is simple, a "natural" (as Mr Dick was described) or not very bright, and this why she is easily swayed, and needs protecting.
I almost think of her sometimes with a finger in her mouth, like Mr Dick, but Mr Dick is easier to identify in modern terms (such as autism) than Emily. Still, I think there is something. The wish to "be a lady" amounted to an obsession, for which she was willing to give up everything - or thought she was.
And why is she happiest spending her time playing with children? This is repeated throughout the novel - at the Omers, in Yarmouth, abroad where she did not know the language, and now in Australia? I don't think we should assume this is because she feels motherly. She just might be one herself, in her mind.
But she has a certain amount of freedom or independence of thought in breaking out when Littimer imprisoned her - and in keeping her elopement with Steerforth a secret from her family too.
She's a bit of an enigma. And Katy - yes after all Charles Dickens's heavy hints with the special clothing etc., we still have no actual confirmation of a child - or miscarriage/death of a child. Mr Peggotty speaks so obliquely at the end, that I was rather hoping for hints of Emily's little one(s) but I could find nothing. So you go right ahead and stand out for Emily's childless state. As Petra said, you could go right through this novel never even giving it a thought, it's so elusive! Also sometimes we are one sole voice. I had though I was on my own with my dislike of Becky Sharp - but am pleased as punch to find some are right there with me :)
Robin - I like your comparison with Charles Dickens's own elusive, or unproven, child by Nelly Ternan in France. As you say, Claire Tomalin refers to this in The Invisible Woman: The Story of Nelly Ternan and Charles Dickens, and she credits all the research into birth records, adoptions etc., done by Felix Aylmer in Dickens Incognito. Charles Dickens was a master of disguise, and used several pseudonyms to buy houses. (This is the book to read if you want a fuller picture of that instance - I was convinced!)
If he had been so proficient at covering up every trace of his own child, it would certainly have been easy for him to just make allusions in his fiction.
I think Ham is an interesting character. He is good and noble. If you compare him to Steerforth then it’s a stark contrast. Ham is working class, he’s selfless and his heart is true. Steerforth is socially superior, selfish and conniving. Ham is so virtuous that he asks David to downplay his broken heart to Emily and even asked her forgiveness at not seeing her hesitation to marry him. Then, he sacrifices himself trying to save the very wretch that caused his pain. The man is a saint in my book and definitely went straight to heaven. I keep thinking the Victorians must have had a thing for saintly types. Also, if compared to Heep, we see that Ham is the truly “humble” character and that Heep’s claim is a sham. Heep is all prideful.
Finished the last chapters in one session, and found the happy ending nice though a bit forced in regard to Agnes. But maybe David just becomes more mature and sees the inner qualities of people. Glad that some people are left to enjoy this. ;)Thanks Jean and Ladies for all the summaries, infos and comments! :)
Mod
Entitled "A Last Retrospect", the older David now looks back and reflects on his story, and those who are still around him: Agnes, and their children and friends. They have called their two eldest daughters Betsey and Dora. Aunt Betsey is still fit and well, at over 80 years old, as is Peggotty. They still visit Mr Dick, who still makes his kites.
A Last Retrospect - Fred Barnard
David muses on Mrs Steerforth who has "some traces of old pride and beauty, feebly contending with a querulous, imbecile, fretful wandering of the mind" and Rosa "a sharp, dark, withered woman, with a white scar on her lip" who still cares for her. When David visits her, he finds that Mrs Steerforth relives the moment when she heard of Steerforth's death over and over again. Rosa is equally obsessed, "loved him better than you ever did!" Embittered by their memories, and Mrs Steerforth's burgeoning senility, they "wear their time away, from year to year".
Julia Mills, friend to Dora, pops into his mind. For all her talk about her romance being sunk in the "Desert of Sahara," she has married a Scotsman and lives luxury in India, indifferent to most things, and quarrelling with her husband: "Julia is steeped in money to the throat, and talks and thinks of nothing else." Among the society crowd who surround her is the sneering Jack Maldon.
Doctor Strong and his wife Annie are happy, and he continues to work on his dictionary. Mrs Markleham is still around, but not as keen to express her opinions.
Traddles has made progress in his profession, and is likely to be made a judge. Some of Sophy's sisters live with them, and Traddles and Sophy have children of their own. Their house is so full that they have to sleep right at the top, but do not mind. "The Beauty" married badly, and is now a widow, also living with them.
David's final thoughts are of his angelic Agnes, beautiful and serene, always pointing upward and urging him on. The author wishes to linger with his memories, but it is time to close the book:
"subduing my desire to linger yet, these faces fade away. But one face, shining on me like a Heavenly light by which I see all other objects, is above them and beyond them all. And that remains."
Mod
Elizabeth - I really appreciated your tying together all the references to David's writing (which was usually, of course, a barely disguised comment on Charles Dickens's own writing) and remembering Mr Omer's early comment, which we suspected was Charles Dickens poking fun at himself! I had tried to include each of these in my summary as they came up, so it's good to have them collected together. Thanks you.
I left it until now to comment, as I think we feel the author's presence very much in this final chapter. The ages of his children now indicate that he is probably young middle-aged. All the way through he's been watching from the side-lines as it were, and now we see him clearly. He's not an old man, as we wondered at the beginning. I find it simply beautiful :) And the illustration I included captures that dream-like feeling so well.
Mod
About Fred Barnard's final illustration, which is so similar to "Dickens's Dream" the famous portrait by William Buss painted 25 years later.
We see David Copperfield at his writing desk. Agnes, his wife is next to him. He gazes up, at all the characters of the story. There is David himself as a young boy in the centre, trudging on the long journey from London to his Aunt in Dover. Above him, in the clouds, an angelic young woman looks down benevolently: his first wife, Dora.
Fred Barnard has conferred on her the idea of "sainted Victorian womanhood". But the Victorian feminine ideal was not just a young angelic woman, but also a wife and mother. Dora was childless and immature, so seated by David, his hand gently protecting her is his life companion, Agnes, as "The Angel in the House".
To the left of Dora (as we look at the picture) are all the bad characters in the novel. Uriah Heep is particularly easy to identify. Perhaps Mrs Steerforth and Rosa are at the top, and the Murdstones the next ones down. I'm not sure about the mask-like grotesques, though I feel Creakle is in there! And I wonder if the bottom right is Steerforth.
On the other side we have the good ones; Traddles is closest to the real -life David and actually looking at him! This is lovely: fantasy meeting fantasy, meeting reality. I think the only other character in the picture who is looking at anyone is Annie Strong, bottom left, who turns her head away from us, to look at her husband. Mr Micawber stands out in the middle at the top, plus Mrs Micawber and all the little Micawbers, bottom right of that group. Aunt Betsey and Mr Dick are there too, and Peggotty. I can't see any of the other boat people though, which is a shame. It worries me actually; did Fred Barnard ignore those who were of humbler origins in this final illustration? Surely their stories were more central to the main plot that the Strongs?
At any rate, I really like this picture, and am relieved that I have been able to find an illustration (sometimes more than one) for each of the 64 chapters!
The illustration is fascinating. It looks like the "bad" characters are on the left ("sinister" side), the good ones on the right with angel Dora looking over them all and the child David at a fork in the road. If it weren't for Aunt Betsey, might he have ended up in a gang like Oliver Twist?
Mod
Thanks so much once again everyone, for making this such a fabulous read. Some have remained silent (not all ladies actually, Michaela!) but I know are enjoying it and may yet comment :)
It's hard to say goodbye to these characters. Those original readers, who had grown to know them as friends and enemies over a year and a half, must have felt bereft!
Sorry I was ahead with my comments, though no real spoilers I hope. I didn´t comment much Jean, as I´m not such a deep thinker, it was my first Dickens read and I´m also not knowing his life and figures therein so much.I love the illustration, and thanks for the comment on it Jean!
Mod
I'm really pleased that you read it right through, as I know how tough Dickens in translation must be. And I hope that now you've read this longest work by him, you will read others quite happily :)
Oh I must acknowledge our male readers though; at least two have joined in this that I know of.
Mod
Yes! Fantastic observation, thanks Robin. He is even looking towards the good characters :)
My favorite parts. - Barkis is willin'
And
- Davy's journey to find Aunt Betsey
I love the illustration. I don't really see it as a fork in the road as much as the road leading into his life, and that life, as all lives, is made up of all the people encountered and the way they influence for good or evil, save or endanger us, help or push us down. Mostly, for David and for Dickens, they help us to discover who we are...as Agnes warned, whether we will listen to our good angels or our bad ones. I imagine Dickens would have said that all the bad things that happened to him in his life served the purpose of making him who he was, perhaps the greatest writer of his time.
Debra wrote: "My favorite parts. - Barkis is willin'
And
- Davy's journey to find Aunt Betsey"
I loved those parts too.
I enjoyed this final chapter. It's a reflective look back at one's life, at the people who mean so much to the heart & added so much to one's life, to those who showed the seedier sides of life but that also helped shape the self. Together they make up the tapestry of the Being and bring a contentment to the soul. The memories are priceless. David's pivotal point in his life, his most important decision, was to try to find Aunt Betsey. That could have been disastrous in so many ways but his life changed when he found her. Without her, his story would have been so much different.
I enjoyed every chapter of this book. The characters were well portrayed, the story pulled one in. Yet, this was a rather placid book, too.
Once David found Aunt Betsey, he had a fairly normal, easy life. Things happened to those around him and he was drawn in but not much happened to him, except he lived his life and he always gets the good results.
In a sense, I feel that this is Dickens' dream life for himself. Toils and troubles with a perfect ending. That makes this a "sweet" story.
Throughout, it's been mentioned that there's a feeling of a fairy tale about this story. Could this be Charles Dickens fairy tale to himself?
Dickens cannot write a bad story. Everything I've read by him has been entertaining and delightful, this one included. I can't say that this is one of my favorites. It's a touch too sweet, with some resolutions that seem contrived. But I enjoyed every page and am glad to have read it. It's Dickens; it can't be anything else but a terrific story.
Thank you everyone for the wonderful discussion. There are so many insightful thoughts that helped enhance this experience. I look forward to many more such discussions in future.
Jean, thank you for the updates and pictures and history. That all added tremendously to this book.
A very nice finish. We’re not left wondering about anyone. It’s been a long journey and I will miss these characters.
I was thinking about the beginning too and about David’s caul. lol! Gosh, that seems so long ago. Anyway, the prediction about David early on that the caul would cancel out the unlucky happenstance of being born on a Friday turned out to be a good hint. Glad to see David with Agnes and a family of his own at the end.
What a wonderful happy ending! This is my first reading of this book, and I really enjoyed it, but then, it's Dickens, so that is a given. ;) It is great that all of the character strands are neatly tied up, even such minor characters as Mr. Mell. I love that we're so invested in the characters that we speculate on their lives after the book has ended. I feel that our daily discussion format greatly contributes to that, and I really hope that we continue to follow this. I think it enables us to analyze and unpack each chapter more thoroughly than we would with a week's worth of reading to discuss at one time. So many more delightful details are unearthed with this more focused examination! I'm a little surprised that there are a lot of people who like Becky Sharpe! I mean, it's okay, but she's not really a likable character. To me, she's kind of in that Scarlett O'Hara character pool--not likable, but EXTREMELY interesting to read about! Although I found Scarlett maybe a bit more justified in her reprehensible actions than Becky. Another of my favorite unlikable female characters is Lydia Gwilt, from Armadale, by Dickens' BFF, Wilkie Collins. She is a wonderfully complex character!
Anyway, I'm looking forward to our next read and hope we keep up the daily discussions--they help keep me on track! I've so enjoyed everyone's thoughtful comments and insights, and thanks so much, Jean, for your brilliant summations and bonus info! It really contributed to a multi-faceted reading experience.
I was wondering how long it took to go through the book and was thinking of looking at the date we started, when I realized "Duh! 64 chapters - 64 days"! As I mentioned before, I have been in weekly groups but never daily and it was a great success this way. Kudos to everyone who stuck with it, considering the craziness of life!
Now it is ended for real, the last chapters all felt like endings for different characters. I like the illustration too.I read the introduction to my edition by David Gates, I think we have discussed every themes he talks about, but the fact that David and Steerforth are based on Dickens (or maybe we have and I have forgotten?); that Steerforth is the embodiment of Dickens not believing in an afterlife (not sure I get the point or maybe I missed it).
My copy also has different critics written by Virginia Woolf, George Orwell, John Lucas, F.R. and Q.D. Leavis, George H. Ford. Only know the first two, but I liked that F.R. and Q.D. Leavis talked of how David Copperfied and Dickens have influenced Leo Tolstoy who wrote by favorite book War and peace and since next month I'm starting a buddy read of it, I will be looking for the influences of Dickens this time around.
How interesting that Dickens influenced Tolstoy through this book. I would not have made the connection.
Mod
..."
Yes, his dream life I think - or rather an alternative ending romantically. Dora, stayed perfect in his eyes, because she died, although they both recognised that it would not stay so. David eventually married his soulmate. Charles Dickens did not.
Jean, that's the feeling I got. That makes this a rather sad story, doesn't it? I wish he had had his happy ending with a soulmate.
Mod
But as Lori and Robin both pointed out, it feels a very long time ago!
I also mentioned that I couldn't find anyone Steerforth was based on, so I had wondered if he was an aspect of himself - his dark side - as Charles Dickens certainly had the charisma, and ability to present himself differently to different people - and sadly also the capacity for deception.
But David? I can't see that. David is too passive. Things happen to him and around him - at least once he is an adult. Can you imagine Charles Dickens watching Rosa Dartle bully Emily without intervening? Or going down to Yarmouth beach in that great storm, and just watching what was happening, without taking part?
Charles Dickens was the one who was awarded a medal for bravery, in risking his own life and rescuing all those trapped passengers in the Staplehurst rail crash. He could never be an onlooker!
So no, I don't believe David is a part of him, other than as a child. The character becomes more like his other young male protagonists, who merge into the background to let others come forward.
Actually, following that thought, have you noticed how many people have to sacrifice something?
(And thanks so much, Cindy :) )
*Edited - one inaccurate phrase removed, thank you, Helen!
I think that David Gates made the mistake that it's easy to do to mix up David and Charles Dickens. I didn't think he was right unless he meant some real life of Dickens was fictionalized in events of David's life, but character wise I don't think the two have the same. I also don't see the Steerforth link.Since I started reading late, I only started reading the comments from the first chapter maybe when I start my withdrawal (tomorrow?) I will go read the comments that come before!
Mod
I feel like starting the whole book over again! LOL But I'll wait until our next big read :) I think so many have said they like the one chapter a day format that it will be nice to keep to it. Though I may need an occasional day off ...
An occasional day off well earned! The energy you’ve put into this, the research, the writing and keeping us on track... that such an achievement!
Jean, you've done a phenomenal job with this read. It must take a huge amount of time. I've wondered how you keep up (more than once during this read). It would certainly make sense to take a day pause occasionally in our next read. Or perhaps someone who's read the book already can help with the updates (maybe every second or third day) to give you "days off" throughout the read.
Dickensians!
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I haven’t read ahead but there can’t be much left to read because my kindle already says 100% done, lol!