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David Copperfield - Group Read 1 > May - June 2020: David Copperfield: chapters 45 - 64

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message 301: by Milena (last edited Jun 28, 2020 10:54AM) (new)

Milena | 153 comments Judy wrote: "the notes in the old Penguin edited by Jeremy Tambling say that the chapter includes echoes of Wordsworth, Byron and Shelley."

This is so cool, Judy. Thank you for the article too :-))


message 302: by Milena (new)

Milena | 153 comments Judy wrote: "Heep has been defeated, but the novel's other villain is still carrying on with his evil."

If anybody asked me:

Who is The Villain of the book?
Uriah Heep or Mr Murdstone?

It would really be hard for me to give an answer.


message 303: by Petra (new)

Petra | 2178 comments Bionic Jean wrote: "By the way, in England doctors do not address patients as "sir" - although the police do! This often comes as a surprise to Americans in particular (I know you're Canadian Petra ... I'm not sure which way round it is for you, but think in "Murdoch Mysteries" which is Edwardian, the police do address the public as "sir" and "madam". )
..."


Doctors don't address their patients as "Sir" here either. I'm not sure how it was in the times of Dickens.
I haven't had a run-in with police (Hahaha) but going from the Police reality shows, they do still say "Sir" and "Madam". So, it occasionally or always still happens.

Thanks for this insight, Jean, as well as the insight of David being overly conscious of his status as a gentleman. I hadn't picked up on that.


message 304: by France-Andrée (last edited Jun 28, 2020 02:00PM) (new)

France-Andrée (iphigenie72) | 376 comments Finally, Traddles got to marry Sophy, but it seems he had to promise that she would continue taking care of her sisters; it's a good thing he does love them and enjoy their presence because I think he is stuck with them.

I found David's reaction to his stepfather destroying another wife the same way as his mother a little unbelievable. I would have expected boilings of emotions even if there were only internal since he doesn't want to give a bad impression to Dr. Chillip. Plus the doctor seems to agree with how David must feel about his mother and yet... nothing. Very improbable.


message 305: by Lori (new)

Lori | 123 comments Hurrah for Tommy and Sophy!! I don’t think either of them will mind roughing it one bit and I believe Miss Mills’ comment from earlier in the book sums things up pretty well:

“Miss Mills replied, on general principles, that the Cottage of content was better than the Palace of cold splendor, and that where love was, all was.”


message 306: by Sara (new)

Sara (phantomswife) | 1548 comments Amen, Lori. How lovely of you to find that quote.


message 307: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jun 29, 2020 02:15AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8482 comments Mod
It's just perfect, thanks Lori :)

I wonder if we ever discover whether Miss Julia Mills finds her own true love.


message 308: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8482 comments Mod
Chapter 60:

Aunt Betsey brings David up to date with events over the last 3 years. The emigrants are happy, and Mr Micawber even sends small amounts of money against his IOU with her. Janet, her maid, has married the local innkeeper, and Mr Dick spends his time copying, and finds this keeps King Charles the First from getting into his head too much.

They talk of when David should go and visit the Wickfields, and there are hints and allusions. Aunt Betsey says that Agnes has suitors, and:

"I suspect she has an attachment, Trot"

but will not say any more. Mr Wickfield, she says, is much improved: "a reclaimed man".

The next morning David rides over to Canterbury. When he arrives at the Wickfield's home, it is just as it used to be, before the Heeps were ever there:



The House of Agnes Wickfield, Canterbury

The little downstairs office has been turned into a parlour:

"Everything was as it used to be, in the happy time."

David asks the maid to announce him, but does not say his name, merely that he is, "a gentleman who waited on her from a friend abroad". Agnes is therefore startled to see him, and David has to catch her before she falls. They are both so happy to see one another:

"My love and joy were dumb."

David longs to know if she loves another, and tries to draw the truth out by suggestion:

"Is there nothing else, Sister?’ I said"

but these words make her uneasy, so he does not push the question. Agnes feels happy and useful in her new life, with her school. David will stay the day while she is taking care of her pupils, and Agnes indicates how she has furnished the room as it used to be, with all their old things, to remind her of the happy days together, when they were children:

"‘And every little thing that has reminded me of my brother,’ said Agnes, with her cordial eyes turned cheerfully upon me, ‘has been a welcome companion.’"

While Agnes is busy, David walks through the town, and muses on his old imagined sweethearts, Miss Shepherd and the eldest Miss Larkins, and sees that his old adversary, the butcher, is now a policeman.

Back at the house, after Agnes's six little pupils have gone home, the three friends talk of old times. Mr Wickfield feels the urge to talk of his wife, and tell her secret history.

Agnes's mother had married Mr Wickfield against the wishes of her father. Her mother had died long ago, and her father was a "hard man". Despite repeated appeals, he was never reconciled, and, "He broke her heart."

Agnes was only two weeks old when her mother died:

"My love for my dear child was a diseased love, but my mind was all unhealthy then."

Mr Wickfield feels "deep regret, and deep contrition" for his behaviour over the last few years, but feels that if this had not happened, Agnes would never have been able to show him "such patience and devotion, such fidelity," so he accepts it, and would not "cancel" it out.

Agnes and David talk for a long while - a very long while - telling each other how devoted they are as brother and sister, and Agnes is pleased that David is not going away again, asseverating that this is because:

"Your growing reputation and success enlarge your power of doing good"

and David tells her, as always, that she is responsible for how and what he is:

"What I am, you have made me."

David does not tell her what is really in his heart, or ask about any beaux, but talks of her being "faithfully affectionate against all discouragement, and never cease to be so, until [she] ceased to live". At this a shadow crosses Agnes's face.

David's mind constantly has an image of Agnes pointing above, as she had when Dora died, and reflects that there may come a time, after they are both gone from this Earth, that they might be together and he would then be able to explain his feeling of lost love.


message 309: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jun 29, 2020 06:19AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8482 comments Mod
This is such chapter of suggestions, impressions, hidden meanings and unresolved thoughts. Nobody says outright what they mean, and it really increases the tension for those of us reading it.

Just how many times did David and Agnes call each other "sister" and "brother"? Before this episode, it had only been an occasional affectionate term. This time is is almost every other time. Is one, (or both) of them trying to convince themselves by reiterating it so much?

Is David sincere when he talks of not telling Agnes his feelings because he has lost the right to, having treated her as his sister for so long? Or is he just "wimping out" - using high-sounding principles to explain something really rather cowardly; that he cannot stand the thought of a rebuff?

We have a few more "goodbyes" of Janet, the early sweethearts, and the butcher. I don't know any other author who is so assiduous at tying up ends of such minor characters!


message 310: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jun 29, 2020 07:02AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8482 comments Mod
I saw Charles Dickens peeping his nose in again, when Agnes said the reason for wanting David to stay was because of how much good he could do.

"Your growing reputation and success enlarge your power of doing good"

Clearly that was her dissembling, but it was also a pointed remark by the author, indicating his own wish to address social questions in his novels. We've already talked of how Charles Dickens attempted, in David Copperfield, to use the stories about Little Emily and Martha, so closely based on cases he was dealing with in "Urania Cottage", to fight the public's prejudice against prostitution, and females who were taken advantage of.


message 311: by Connie (new)

Connie  G (connie_g) | 1041 comments Dickens was a smart writer having David call Agnes "sister" over and over again. The reader wants to scream at David that he'll never win Agnes that way. You're so right that it increases the tension, Jean.


message 312: by Rosemarie (new)

Rosemarie | 311 comments Regarding David, quoting Aunt Betsey: "Blind! Blind! Blind!"


message 313: by Petra (last edited Jun 29, 2020 07:58AM) (new)

Petra | 2178 comments Arg! Both David and Agnes skirting the subject is very tension filled. As Connie has said, when they call each other brother & sister, one just wants to tell them to stop being "polite" and speak openly.
LOL!


message 314: by Lori (new)

Lori | 123 comments I agree with all of your comments about David and Agnes addressing each other as brother and sister. But, in addition to this it occurred to me that they each were hoping the other would contradict it.


message 315: by Sara (new)

Sara (phantomswife) | 1548 comments Lori wrote: "I agree with all of your comments about David and Agnes addressing each other as brother and sister. But, in addition to this it occurred to me that they each were hoping the other would contradict..."

Good observation. I also think they say it hoping to find some indication from the other that that is not the relationship that exists; however that backfires, because the more they say it the more they believe it means that is exactly the feeling the other possesses.


message 316: by Lori (new)

Lori | 123 comments Exactly, Sara!


message 317: by France-Andrée (new)

France-Andrée (iphigenie72) | 376 comments The brother and sister being used makes me uncomfortable, it's like neither one really wants to grow up... like when we are young we call "uncle" and "aunt" people we aren't related to, to express emotions we are too young to explain without using words that are ill suited. As children Agnes and David used the words just that way, but as adults they should use more appropriate way to express how they feel.

I agree with the rest though, it is a screen to hide they true feelings.


message 318: by Cindy (new)

Cindy Newton | 65 comments When David says he will never express his feelings because he has lost the right to, and that he will be content just being Agnes's dear friend, I want to say, "David, you silly, silly man!" I understand why he feels that way and that his realization of how blind he was shows maturity, but they're so obviously destined to be together! We need Mr. Dick to help them stop dissembling with their "sister" and "brother." He'd get them together in no time flat! :)


message 319: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jun 30, 2020 05:34AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8482 comments Mod
Yes, I'm sure you're all right, and have thought of something else to add. I do think that David is just too much of a wimp, (and the "being fair to Agnes" is him justifying it and fooling himself). Yes, Lori - I agree they are each hoping the other would be courageous enough to contradict it! And there's another problem which as a Victorian lady, Agnes faced.

Victorian females were constrained by what was deemed proper, but I think Agnes might have been daring and honest enough to give a sign of her feelings, if she'd actually been able to see his face! She has more courage, but most of the time she would have her eyes downcast, I think, as is proper for a lady ...

And by the end of their emotional conversation, they are looking at each other all the time ... Hope! Surely this is very bold behaviour for a lady of that time? And as she is playing the piano, Agnes "softly played on, looking at me still" (she's a better pianist than I am then! ;) ) Even more hope! It seems significant that Charles Dickens makes a point of saying this. Maybe this would have been the moment for a declaration ...?

But what does David do, the clothead? He blurts out the bit I put in the summary, about her always being "faithfully affectionate against all discouragement" and even hoping that she will always be, so all her life! (It makes her sound like a pet dog!)

Poor Agnes! No wonder a "distressful shadow crossed her face". She just been told that all David had dreamed of, and secretly hopes will still be true, is that she is a sister to him.

Poor David. We know you're not a 21st century man, but you do seem to put your size nines in it all the time!

I particularly like your idea about Mr Dick, Cindy :) He wouldn't be so "blind, blind, blind"!


message 320: by Milena (new)

Milena | 153 comments Cindy wrote: "We need Mr. Dick to help them stop dissembling with their "sister" and "brother." "

Excellent idea, Cindy :)


message 321: by Judy (new)

Judy (wwwgoodreadscomprofilejudyg) | 362 comments I think David is being noble and trying to avoid causing Agnes any distress (although of course he actually does the opposite to what he intends!) and his thoughtfulness here also shows how much he has matured since his romance with Dora. He has also had a long period of grief and depression which won't have helped his self-esteem.

Having said that, since he is supposed to be a great novelist like Dickens, it's a bit odd that he doesn't pick up the signals from Agnes which we as readers do pick up!

I never feel Agnes is really very individual - to me she is more of an ideal than a character, maybe because she is just too perfect.


message 322: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jun 30, 2020 11:06AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8482 comments Mod
Chapter 61:

David moves into his aunt's house in Dover, to finish writing his book. The older David, narrating emphasises how important this work is to him:

"That I truly devoted myself to it with my strongest earnestness, and bestowed upon it every energy of my soul, I have already said."

He is finding that as he grows more successful, he has more letters to answer from his readers, which he arranges to be delivered to Traddles. Among these letters of appreciation, sometimes he receives requests to act as a proctor, using his name falsely. David always declines these:

"there were plenty of such covert practitioners in existence, and considering the Commons quite bad enough, without my doing anything to make it worse."

By accident, David discovers Sophy writing, and Traddles tells him that she is practising a formal hand, (style of writing) so that she will be able to act as Traddles's copying-clerk. Traddles and David both heap compliments of Sophy, for all her housewifely skills, which embarrasses her. Traddles goes on to say how happy they are, making the best of their limited finances. He talks of their cheap seats in the theatre, and describes how the outings to look at various things in the shops are as much fun as if they had purchased the goods themselves.

David is feeling indulgent towards his friends, and reminds Traddles of the times at Salem House when he used to draw skeletons. This leads on to talk of Mr Creakle. Apparently he is no longer a headmaster but a magistrate, and has written to David to offer to show him the prison he runs, using:

"the only true system of prison discipline; the only unchallengeable way of making sincere and lasting converts and penitents—which, you know, is by solitary confinement."

David sarcastically says that Mr Creakle's letter shows hims to be the "tenderest of men" to the prisoners, and on meeting the two, Mr Creakle pronounces that he:

"had always loved me tenderly [and] that he had always been Traddles’s guide, philosopher, and friend."

The prison, and all those incarcerated there are evidence of such "practical satires",  with the two most satisfactory examples named as number 27 and number 28. No expense is spared in the pursuit of "The System", for their food and their comfort, and David sardonically observes that:

"nothing in the world to be legitimately taken into account but the supreme comfort of prisoners, at any expense."

The guiding principle behind the system, David and Traddles are told, is based on:

"the perfect isolation of prisoners—so that no one man in confinement there, knew anything about another; and the reduction of prisoners to a wholesome state of mind, leading to sincere contrition and repentance."

As they look round with the other visitors inspecting the prison, David becomes aware that all the prisoners not only have managed to get to know a lot about each other, but that they also know exactly what is expected of them, and can work "the system" to their own advantage. They exhibit the correct manner, and know exactly which pious words to use, which have become like a formula for repentance:

"I found that the most professing men were the greatest objects of interest; and that their conceit, their vanity, their want of excitement, and their love of deception (which many of them possessed to an almost incredible extent, as their histories showed), all prompted to these professions, and were all gratified by them."



I am shown 2 Interesting Penitents - Phiz

To their immense surprise, when they are introduced to number 27, this is the "very umble" Uriah Heep! He writhes as of old, and has a "jerk of his malevolent head". But his manner is pleasing to all the visitors, as he meekly repeats the acceptable cant:

"I see my follies, now, sir. That’s what makes me comfortable"

even to the extreme of wishing his mother were there too, as:

"There’s a deal of sin in mother. There’s nothing but sin everywhere—except here ... It would be better for everybody, if they got took up, and was brought here."

David and Traddles feel "a kind of resigned wonder" when number 28 is revealed to be Littimer! Littimer too repeats all the correct phrases, and behaves just as he always had, with immense respect and piety:

"I see my follies now, sir. I am a good deal troubled when I think of the sins of my former companions, sir; but I trust they may find forgiveness."

Littimer says he had been led into weaknesses, which he had not had the strength to resist, and that he is now "conscious of my own past follies", hoping that David "may repent of all the wickedness and sin to which he has been a party."

He also refers to Emily, who "fell into dissolute courses, that I endeavoured to save, sir, but could not rescue", and wishes David "to inform that young woman from me that I forgive her her bad conduct towards myself, and that I call her to repentance".

All the visitors are impressed by Littimer's proper manner, and:

"several gentlemen were shading their eyes, each with one hand, as if they had just come into church."

The approval of the conduct of these two prisoners only increases, when Uriah Heep is asked if he would like to say anything more to David:

"a more villainous look I never saw, even on his visage" as he tells them the occasion when David had struck him on the face.

"Several indignant glances directed at me ...

‘But I forgive you, Mr. Copperfield,’ said Uriah ... I forgive everybody. It would ill become me to bear malice. I freely forgive you, and I hope you’ll curb your passions in future."


All the other visitors are persuaded of the conversion of these two prisoners to become upstanding members of society, and there is no encouragement to question why they had been imprisoned, so David asks one of the warders.

Number 27 had masterminded a plot against the Bank, involving fraud, forgery, and conspiracy. He nearly escaped justice, and that was why he had not been transported. Number 28 had robbed his young master of about two hundred and fifty pounds, the night before they were going abroad. He had disguised himself, and was going to America, but Miss Mowcher:

"picked him out with her sharp eye in a moment—ran betwixt his legs to upset him—and held on to him like grim Death ... He cut her face right open, and pounded her in the most brutal manner, when she took him; but she never loosed her hold till he was locked up."

Everyone had cheered her for her bravery at the time, and David too feels very pleased, and respects her even more.

But overall, his view of the system is that it is:

"a rotten, hollow, painfully suggestive piece of business altogether" and that the "hypocritical knaves" Uriah Heep and Littimer were well able to further their ends in such a place: "they knew its market-value at least as well as we did, in the immediate service it would do them when they were expatriated".

David hopes that by implementing and following such a bad system rigorously, its defects will be exposed all the more quickly.


message 323: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jun 30, 2020 10:48AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8482 comments Mod
A chapter of massive, but satisfying coincidences. I wonder if Victorian readers were more delighted by these than some modern-day ones, although I admit I do gain pleasure from this tying up of ends, even as I can see the cogs of Charles Dickens's mind working. I want the baddies to get their come-uppance, and the goodies to win!

Perhaps Mr Creakle, Uriah Heep and Littimer could have had worse happen to them, but he has certainly more than made up for the real life Miss Mowcher's displeasure at her fictional portrait. She saves the day :)

I think this chapter is the most bitter and sardonic of the lot. It's a real diatribe against the prison system.


message 324: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jun 30, 2020 10:54AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8482 comments Mod
So now we've had the full story of Miss Mowcher.

I'll link to the earlier posts about Mrs. Jane Seymour Hill, whose feelings had already been stung by a scathing newspaper article where she was recognisable as the subject, even though she had not been named:

LINK HERE and

LINK HERE

Charles Dickens made some recompense earlier, when Miss Mowcher came and had a heart to heart with David, and told him about Steerforth's plot to entrap Emily. She told David then about her suspicions, and kept an eye on the secret comings and goings via Norwich. She really was made to be an important piece in the puzzle.

And now he's made Miss Mowcher even more of a heroine, as she helps to capture Littimer!


message 325: by Petra (new)

Petra | 2178 comments I found this chapter interesting but wasn't enthralled with it.

I like how Dickens tried to bring the inequities of "the system" to his readers to, perhaps, try to make them think of prison reform in some way. Or at least to think about how the system isn't really working.
This part reminds me of our side read of The Life of Charles Dickens : Volume I, where there's a chapter on prison visits made by Dickens.

However, I found it rather coincidental that the two top, model prisoners were Heep and Littimer, and that there's talk of expatriation. Does that not imply that these two may end up in Australia one day? That would be disappointing.


message 326: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jun 30, 2020 12:26PM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8482 comments Mod
I can never reconcile the idea of emigrants who save up to go steerage to a "land of opportunity", with convicts being sent there by force! I think I mentioned this before. It seems so contradictory. Is it a punishment or not? It seems to have been substituted for hanging, after all.

The warder told David that Uriah only managed to just avoid being exported, as if solitary confinement in Creakle's prison was a lesser sentence.


message 327: by Sara (new)

Sara (phantomswife) | 1548 comments This is a less satisfactory chapter than most, and it is disturbing (although sadly realistic) to think that Heep and Littimer are able to turn the crowds to their side so easily. Evidence that they will be out again practicing their criminal activities on the unsuspecting before you know it.

Too much coincidence, but at least we are not left feeling that no punishment at all will come to these two villainous characters. Of course, we already know that Murdstone is out there conducting his despicable behavior and flourishing, so we are well aware that good will not always triumph.

There is a great deal of irony in the Australia question. Were persons exported by the criminal system not required to work off a sentence when they landed in Australia or were they just set free when they reached the shores? I was always under the impression that criminals would have been sent to a penal colony, while those who chose to emigrate, like Dan Peggotty, would be free to seek their fortune.


message 328: by Sara (new)

Sara (phantomswife) | 1548 comments Found this regarding deportation to Australia:

If a convict was well behaved, the convict could be given a ticket of leave, granting some freedom. At the end of the convict's sentence, seven years in most cases, the convict was issued with a Certificate of Freedom. He was then free to become a settler or to return to England. Convicts who misbehaved, however, were often sent to a place of secondary punishment like Port Arthur, Tasmania or Norfolk Island, where they would suffer additional punishment and solitary confinement.

So, I can see how it was both--a punishment for some and an opportunity for others.


message 329: by France-Andrée (new)

France-Andrée (iphigenie72) | 376 comments Dickens is always trying to reform the system he disagreed with (and was mostly right) so I found this chapter very true to himself in that way. We've had a lot of controversy here about solitary confinement that lasts too long so the system is still broken, it seems like prison is not a nice place to be... as it should.

Glad to know that Heep and Littimer have been caught and found guilty of something. Maybe a little too coincidental that they should be next to each other, but that they would know how to exploit the system makes a lot of sense that's what they've been doing all their lives.


message 330: by France-Andrée (new)

France-Andrée (iphigenie72) | 376 comments Thank you, Sara, I thought they would be indentured like what we saw in America, but it seemed it wasn't the same system. Obviously, the more people emigrated, the less they wanted the convicts to join them... so after the 1830s convict transportation was very controversial.


message 331: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jun 30, 2020 02:50PM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8482 comments Mod
Thank you for that explanation Sara :) And for the interesting article linked in your comment 298, Judy. Most unusual!


message 332: by Lori (new)

Lori | 123 comments I loved hearing about Miss Mowcher’s part in capturing Littimer. “Excellent Miss Mowcher”, indeed.

Given David’s feelings for Agnes, I was surprised he didn’t speak out when Heep said, “I hope Mr W. will repent, and Miss W., and all of that sinful lot.” I would not have been able to hold my tongue at such an insult to my beloved.

Can’t wait to see how this wraps up but I am beginning to wonder if Aunt Betsey will have to take charge of the situation. She might have to play matchmaker after all.


message 333: by Lori (new)

Lori | 123 comments Sara: I had the exact same reaction to Heep and Littimer’s performance.


message 334: by Lori (new)

Lori | 123 comments BTW, David didn’t stand up for Emily either when Littimer was spouting off. I was indignant when Littimer said that nonsense about forgiving Emily for her “bad conduct towards myself”, of all the nerve!!


message 335: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jul 01, 2020 10:14AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8482 comments Mod
Chapter 62:

David finds his thoughts are filled with Agnes, and he rides over to see her at least once a week. He reads his work to her, and:

"thought what a fate mine might have been—but only thought so, as I had thought after I was married to Dora, what I could have wished my wife to be."

He thinks Aunt Betsey understands his frame of mind, but neither of them speak of it. As Christmas draws near David is determined to find out Agnes's secret, so that he can assure her that everything will still be as it was.

David sets out on a cold, harsh, winter day, and his aunt says the ride will do him good, even though his horse is not keen:

"‘ ... you pass a good many hours here! I never thought, when I used to read books, what work it was to write them.’
‘It’s work enough to read them, sometimes,’ I returned. ‘As to the writing, it has its own charms, aunt.’"


They talk a little of Agnes's "attachment", and Aunt Betsey says:

"I think Agnes is going to be married."

This makes David even more purposeful, as he endures the wintry ride. He find Agnes alone, and they sit together on the window-seat. Agnes notices he has something on his mind, and asks David about it.

"‘You have a secret,’ said I. ‘Let me share it, Agnes ... let me be your friend, your brother, in this matter, of all others!’"

Agnes's glance to him is almost reproachful, and she bursts into tears. David begins to have an inkling of what is in her mind, and says:

"Agnes! Sister! Dearest! What have I done?"

but she begs him to let her go away, and not say any more. David wonders:

" ... having once a clue to hope, was there something opening to me that I had not dared to think of?"

Agnes give him a clearer indication:

"If I have any secret, it is—no new one; and is—not what you suppose. I cannot reveal it, or divide it. It has long been mine, and must remain mine."

and David's hopes rise further:

"Agnes, if I have indeed any new-born hope that I may ever call you something more than Sister, widely different from Sister!—"

Agnes's reaction give David more courage to explain:

"I went away, dear Agnes, loving you. I stayed away, loving you. I returned home, loving you!"

and David talks for a long time, so that she understands his thoughts. Agnes wishes also to explain:

"I have loved you all my life!"



Photograph of David and Dora, from a dramatisation

The couple are very happy. When they arrive back at Dover the next day, they do not tell Aunt Betsey straightaway, but wait until after dinner. When Aunt Betsey realises, she goes into happy hysterics, which David has never seen before, and the narrator says he never will again. Then she hugs Peggotty and Mr Dick too. David does not manage to find out what his aunt had meant, when she had said Agnes was to be married.

Agnes has just one more thing to tell David. On the evening when Dora had died, Dora had asked for a promise from Agnes:

"That only I would occupy this vacant place."

And both Agnes and David weep with happiness.


message 336: by Milena (new)

Milena | 153 comments Bionic Jean wrote: "I think this chapter is the most bitter and sardonic of the lot. It's a real diatribe against the prison system.."

It’s ironic that the place where “the only unchallengeable way of making sincere and lasting converts and penitents […]is by solitary confinement," is also the place where the two rascals meet (if I remember correctly, they had not met before), and from the meaningful look that they exchange, I don’t see anything good coming.


message 337: by Milena (last edited Jul 01, 2020 10:49AM) (new)

Milena | 153 comments Bionic Jean wrote: "I can never reconcile the idea of emigrants who save up to go steerage to a "land of opportunity", with convicts being sent there by force! I think I mentioned this before. It seems so contradictory. Is it a punishment or not?"

I was thinking the same thing.

Sara wrote: "Found this regarding deportation to Australia:
If a convict was well behaved, the convict could be given a ticket of leave, granting some freedom. At the end of the convict's sentence, seven years in most cases, the convict was issued with a Certificate of Freedom. He was then free to become a settler or to return to England. Convicts who misbehaved, however, were often sent to a place of secondary punishment like Port Arthur, Tasmania or Norfolk Island, where they would suffer additional punishment and solitary confinement.
So, I can see how it was both--a punishment for some and an opportunity for others.


Thank you Sara. At least there was a punishment!


message 338: by Milena (new)

Milena | 153 comments Bionic Jean wrote: "Aunt Betsey says:
"I think Agnes is going to be married.""


What a stroke of genius for aunt Betsey to say that. :)


message 339: by Judy (new)

Judy (wwwgoodreadscomprofilejudyg) | 362 comments I read The Fatal Shore: The Epic of Australia's Founding by Robert Hughes years ago, about people being deported to Australia, and remember it as powerful but incredibly depressing - the conditions of the journey were terrible and many were abused by their bosses.

Some of them had committed very minor "crimes" - for instance stealing food because they were hungry. This article says "An eight-month boat trip 10,000 miles across the sea soon became the punishment for thieving a bag of sugar or a loaf of bread."

https://theculturetrip.com/pacific/au...


message 340: by France-Andrée (new)

France-Andrée (iphigenie72) | 376 comments Earlier in the book, I had misremembered who David married second. A little weird because it was the name that confused me, not going to say it because I think I might have confused another book with the same name... Dickens or not, I am not sure. Anyway, we had known for a while that this was coming. Not sure that I would recount this the same way if it was my life, a little embarrassing even if it has a happy ending (completely brought on by Aunt Betsey).


message 341: by Lori (new)

Lori | 123 comments France-Andrée: I agree with you. I had pretty much made up my mind that Aunt Betsey would have to give David some encouragement one way or another.


message 342: by Robin P (new)

Robin P We know that David remarries because at some point before the end he references his children.

According to some at the time, solitary confinement to think about one's misdeeds was a more humane punishment than forced labor or physical punishments like whipping, branding, etc. Not surprising that prisoners with half a brain learned to say the right things, somewhat like people in communist countries who were sent for "reeducation".


message 343: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jul 02, 2020 09:40AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8482 comments Mod
Chapter 63:

It is ten years later. David and Agnes are very happy and have three children. Their servant announces a visitor, someone she does not recognise, who is an old man, and looks like a farmer. As soon as Agnes sees him, she springs up in delight, as it is Mr Peggotty:

"An old man now, but in a ruddy, hearty, strong old age ... as vigorous and robust, withal as handsome, an old man, as ever I had seen."



A Stranger Calls to See Me - Phiz

Life has been good to the emigrants, and he had wanted to come back and tell them before he got to be too old. He will only be in England for a few weeks. Mr Peggotty brings them up to date with everything that has happened.

When they landed in Australia, life had been hard at the beginning, but they tried their hand at sheep-farming and stock-farming, and with hard work they got on well. Emily was sorrowful, but was so kind and thoughtful, helping all around her, that she grew to be much liked. Their neighbours assumed that she had been mistaken in her love for someone, or that she had been widowed, but nobody knew her story. Emily could have married, but she said she had felt it was all behind her.

Neither Mr Peggotty nor Emily knew about Steerforth or Ham, and a year passed before either learned about it. Dan Peggotty read an old newspaper belonging to a traveller, which had an article about the storm at Yarmouth in it, and later on Emily read it too. For a long time after this, Emily was affected by this, but slowly she recovered a little:

"A slight figure,’ said Mr. Peggotty, looking at the fire, ‘kiender worn; soft, sorrowful, blue eyes; a delicate face; a pritty head, leaning a little down; a quiet voice and way—timid a’most. That’s Em’ly!"

Mr Peggotty tells them that Martha has married a farm-labourer, and she had been keen that he should know her story. They live in the Bush, over 400 miles away from anybody else.

On being asked about Mrs Gummidge, Mr Peggotty suddenly bursts out laughing, and the story he has to tell makes them both join in. A settler had asked Mrs Gummidge to marry him, but she set about him with a bucket, until he called out for help. Mr Peggotty goes on to say how hard she has worked:

"She’s the willingest, the trewest, the honestest-helping woman, Mas’r Davy, as ever draw’d the breath of life."

David asks about Mr Micawber, and his story may be the strangest of all, At first he had worked as hard as anybody:

"I never wish to meet a better gen’l’man for turning to with a will. I’ve seen that theer bald head of his a perspiring in the sun, Mas’r Davy, till I a’most thowt it would have melted away. And now he’s a Magistrate."

Mr Peggotty shows them a newspaper from the town of Port Middlebay Harbour, which was holding a public dinner in his honour. Not only was their "fellow-colonist and townsman" present but also one "Doctor Mell, of Colonial Salem-House Grammar School, Port Middlebay". This was the very same school teacher at Salem House, who had been so kind to David, and so cruelly mocked by Steerforth. Entertaining the dinner guests by his singing had been young Wilkins Micawber Junior.

The article went on to describe the eloquence of Mr Micawber, as he regaled his audience with tales of his life, and advice about not taking on too many "pecuniary liabilities" for fear of not being able to pay them. Mr Micawber's wife and children had watched the proceedings from a side-door, and all were named and honoured. After the songs, the tables were cleared for dancing, and two notable partners were "Wilkins Micawber, Esquire, Junior, and the lovely and accomplished Miss Helena, fourth daughter of Doctor Mell".

Mr Peggotty indicates another part of the newspaper, and David there reads his own name. Mr Micawber had indulged his fondness for writing letters, and apparently now the newspaper actually employed him in that sphere. He wrote letters for publication in this newspaper, and had even had a small volume of them printed separately. The letter David was reading, was to an "eminent author", with fond remembrance of their friendship, and in praise of his writing, which he asserts is enjoyed not only by him, but by "the whole of the Inhabitants of Port Middlebay".

Mr Peggotty stays with David and Agnes for almost a month, and before he embarks on his long voyage back to Australia, he wants to visit Yarmouth again. David shows him a little tablet he has erected in the churchyard, to the memory of Ham. Mr Peggotty asks him to write down the inscription, and David sees him stoop to pick a tuft of grass out from the grave. This, he says, is "For Em’ly", as he had promised her.


message 344: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jul 02, 2020 09:33AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8482 comments Mod
Another happy chapter! I loved yesterday's even though by modern standards some would think it was sentimental. But the line from David:

"I went away, dear Agnes, loving you. I stayed away, loving you. I returned home, loving you!"

And then from Dora:

"I have loved you all my life!"

tug so at the heartstrings, and to me seem so poignant, almost poetic.

Now today we have more occasions to smile; we've had the conclusions of quite a few stories here. I was delighted to hear about Mr Mell! It's such a long time ago in the story, and the original readers probably haven't heard him mentioned for about a year! But when we learn that one of his daughters is attached to the Micawbers' eldest son, it feels most satisfactory as if things have come full circle.

So it's a thumbs up from me. Coincidences? Yes. Unlikely? Probably. But it makes for a great story!

I'm really enjoying these short chapters at the end. They do feel different from what has gone before, but I enjoy thinking about each set of chapters a little, and recollecting their story in my mind, before going on. I can see how others might to read the whole lot together though. Perhaps it's just that I don't want the book to end, and to say goodbye to all these people in the story. I wonder if others would rather read ahead - and perhaps have done?


message 345: by Sara (new)

Sara (phantomswife) | 1548 comments I was also happy to learn of what happened to Mr. Mell and to know that he recovered from the dismissal and made a good life for himself. It probably is a little contrived to have all these people come together at the end of the book, but it is satisfying to the reader not to have a lot of loose ends and lost characters.

I confess to having read on to the end. I have another rather long read I am about to become involved in and I wanted to close this one off now that the chapters are all denouement and are no longer developing a storyline ahead.

This has been a magnificent read and the kind of discussion I long for and seldom find. I think the quality of this discussion is all a result of your leadership, Jean, so many thanks for all the time and effort you expended for my enjoyment!


message 346: by Rosemarie (new)

Rosemarie | 311 comments I admit reading ahead as well.
Thanks for leading such a great discussion, Jean! As well, everybody's comments added a real depth to the discussion.
It was a wonderful experience.


message 347: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8482 comments Mod
Sara wrote: "I confess to having read on to the end ..." - Oh no criticism was intended! I can see the temptation. Sometimes it seems silly when you're so close. But on the other hand I am looking forward to the final chapter tomorrow, and whatever surprises and satisfactory elements Charles Dickens has up his sleeve for us!

Thank you so much for your kind words. I have really loved this read too - it's been a lot of fun - and I think we all learn a lot from each other :)


message 348: by France-Andrée (last edited Jul 02, 2020 11:07AM) (new)

France-Andrée (iphigenie72) | 376 comments It's nice all these endings, I agree that Doctor Mell showing up is very coincidental and Dickens makes sure that his readers make the link by having the school's name include Salem House though I'm not sure Mr. Mell would call his school after one that dismissed him.

Had a little tear when Mr. Peggotty took his tuft of grass for Emily, very sentimental, but it's probably the only reminder that she will ever have of Ham.

I haven't read ahead, I am juggling lots of reads at the same time, but different genres. So tomorrow I will read the last chapter and the introduction, am also sad that it is ending; will be looking forward to know what we will read next.


message 349: by Sara (new)

Sara (phantomswife) | 1548 comments Didn't take it as a criticism, Jean. 😀 Like France-Andrée I thought it unlikely that Salem House would be a name Mr. Mell would want to perpetuate. I'm also excited to see what the next read will be.


message 350: by Debra Diggs (new)

Debra Diggs I read ahead and finished. The discussions and comments made the book much more enjoyable.


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