Dickensians! discussion
David Copperfield - Group Read 1
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May - June 2020: David Copperfield: chapters 45 - 64
Jean, you probably meant not Leo Tolstoy, but Fyodor Dostoyevsky who became a great fan of Dickens during his Siberian exile.
Just thought of Jean's comment regarding Steerforth having no *real* prototype, but rather based on the dark side of Dickens' personality.Claire Tomalin tells in her book about the conversation Dostoyevsky had with Dickens later in life, after Dickens left his wife and behaved - let's say, not quite ethically. Dickens actually admitted to Dostoyevsky that some of his characters are modeled on his dark, wild and unattractive side:
"The person he [the writer] sees most of, most often, actually every day, is himself. When it comes to a question of why a man does something else, it's the author's own actions which make him understand, or fail to understand, the sources of human action. Dickens told me the same thing when I met him at the office of his magazine... in 1862. He told me that all the good simple people in his novels, Little nell, even the holy simpletons like Barnaby Rudge, are what he wanted to have been, and his villains were what he was (or, rather, what he found in himself), his cruelty, his attacks of causeless enmity towards those who were helpless and looked to him for comfort, his shrinking from those who he ought to love, being used up in what he wrote. There were two people in him, he told me: one, who feels as he ought to feel and one who feels the opposite. From the one who feels the opposite I make my evil characters, from the one who feels as a man ought to feel I try to live my life. Only two people? I asked." (Source: Stephanie Harvey's translation of Dostoyevsky's letter dated 18 July 1878, in her article "Dickens's Villains: A Confession and a Suggestion", Dickensian (2002), p. 233)
Sorry for the long comment, but this is a fascinating quote which explains much in Dickens's personality and his books.
That was very interesting, Helen. Just thinking that Dickens minimally influenced those two great russian writers is mind boggling. In the criticism by The Leavises I read today, it says Leo Tolstoy discovered Dickens when he was 22 [1850] and that his first Dickens read was David Copperfield, he read it in russian and then with a dictionary in english. I understand him wanting to read the original, it’s one of the reasons I worked so hard on my english too, my first complete read in english was The Stand by Stephen King, I was 18 and I had to abandon it because it was just words after words being looked up in the dictionary; I worked in a restaurant in an English neighborhood and months later took the book up again and could read mostly without the dictionary. And lucky me, I can read Dickens as it was intended... too bad I don’t speak russian!
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You will have a far better knowledge of them than I! It's an interesting paragraph - and the reference makes me wonder again. I'll copy the posts I made before we began the novel here, and you'll see why.
France-Andrée Thanks for the extra info too!
In the next comments I'll copy posts from our first thread for David Copperfield.
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David Copperfield 1st thread: post 72:
Would it surprise you to know that one writer who admired Charles Dickens enormously, was Fyodor Dostoyevsky? And yet they seem like chalk and cheese ...
However, when he was exiled to Siberia for four or five years, Fyodor Dostoyevsky refused to read any books brought to him, except Charles Dickens's David Copperfield and The Pickwick Papers!
Dostoevsky read David Copperfield several times, and was very taken with the character of Mr. Micawber, whom he mentioned in his notes, letters, and diaries. He referred to himself as "Mr. Micawber" and to his wife, Anna Grigorjevna, as "Mrs. Micawber."When they were living in Dresden, he wrote: "I am positively in a terrible situation now (Mr. Micawber). Not a kopek of money".
Anna Dostoevskaya confirmed that "Dickens's sense of humour was part of our life. We endured our poverty resignedly, sometimes careless[ly]." And Dostoevsky's daughter, Lyubov Dostoevskaya, wrote in her Memoirs:
"When our father went to Ems, he was not able to read himself because of his work, [so] he made our mother, Anna Grigoryevna, read aloud [to him the works of] Walter Scott and Dickens, this Great Christian, as my father called him in his "Diary of a Writer". During the dinner time my father asked us whether we were impressed by Dickens's novels and [whether we] recollected the episodes from Dickens's works. My father, who forgot the second name of his wife and the face of his sweetheart, remembered the names of all the characters from Dickens' and Walter Scott's novels!"
Post 74: (answering Karin)
A couple of reputable biographies talk about them meeting, but this has been proved to be a hoax.* It's a shame though! Fyodor Dostoyevsky loved the works of Charles Dickens all his life, and was in tears sometimes.
You're right about them both not flinching from the dark side of life Karin, I think, although their style feels so very different. Charles Dickens almost always breaks up the tension by having ridiculous comic cameos straight after a hairraising chapter, but I think Fyodor Dostoyevsky is more merciless.
* This is why I found your quoted letter so interesting Helen! I must do some digging and discover the source of the statement!
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David Copperfield 1st thread: post 77:
Leo Tolstoy judged David Copperfield to be:
"the best work of the best English novelist"
The love interest between *David and Dora Spenlow inspired him to write of (view spoiler) in War and Peace.
Post 79:
For many years, David Copperfield was the one book by Charles Dickens which the critics all agreed was a great novel. During the early part of the 20th century Angus Wilson reported that it was considered a "classical" novel, enjoying the same sort of status as War and Peace. Told in the first person, it is an internal or psychological novel.
* this was obviously under a spoiler tag in the first thread!
Another author who was a fan of David Copperfield was D.H. Lawrence. In one of his first published poems, Dreams Old and Nascent, he wrote:
Over the nearness of Norwood Hill, through the mellow veil
Of the afternoon glows to me the old romance of David and Dora,
With the old, sweet, soothing tears, and laughter that shakes the sail
Of the ship of the soul over seas where dreamed dreams lure the unoceaned explorer."
I remember noticing this reference when I read a selection of Lawrence poems at school (more than 40 years ago!) and being struck by it because Lawrence and Dickens are such different authors.
During our current read, I was reminded of this when I was checking something about Little Em'ly online, and came across an extract from a book called D. H. Lawrence in Italy and England on Google Books, which mentioned that Lawrence signed a letter to his brother "Your afflicted brother, DH Gummidge".
I also saw that there is an essay called Dickens and Lawrence by Michael Hollington which says the young Lawrence "read him “as if for life,” and modelled his own personality on that of David Copperfield" - quite a surprising idea! That article isn't available online though.
Again, so surprising...not that Lawrence would have admired Dickens, but that he would have "modelled his own personality on that of David Copperfield" and yet been such a different sort of author.
Thanks, Jean, for reposting. Dickens Influenced many authors, but to think someone like Lawrence wanted to take on David’s characteristic when Davis is placid and reactive, he was also very observant maybe that’s what an author would want to emulate.
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Must say I never saw any similarities either - I think there is also very little humour in Lawrence, so, looking back at that poem, it's nice to see the mention of laughter. I don't quite see how he would have modelled himself on David, but maybe it was by observation, as you say, France-Andrée.Jean, fascinating to hear how Dickens inspired the great Russian authors Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky. It's a shame Dickens's meeting with Dostoyevsky never happened!
I know there was some discussion about the original of Steerforth... I was looking for information about this the other day and found a very brief mention in The Dickens Encyclopaedia: An Alphabetical Dictionary of References to Every Character and Place Mentioned in the Works of Fiction (sadly, I don't own this wonderfully titled book, but searched it on Google!) of the younger Steerforth being based on Dickens's childhood friend George Stroughill.This seems to stem from a mention in The Childhood and Youth of Charles Dickens by Robert Langton, which was first published in 1884 and is available on archive.org.
In a section about when the Dickens family lived in Ordnance Terrace, Chatham, he says:
"The next-door neighbours at No. I, the corner house,
were the Stroughills, and George Stroughill the son,
somewhat older than Charles Dickens, was his greatest
friend during these happy years. Some characteristics of
George, a frank, open, and somewhat daring boy, are
re-produced as Steerforth in David Copperfield. His
sister Lucy, the Golden Lucy of The Wreck of the Golden
Mary, from her beautiful golden locks, was the especial
favourite and little sweetheart of Charles at this time."
I'm not sure this tells us all that much though, as I must say I don't think the younger Steerforth in the novel is very frank and open at all!
Has anyone read this book about Dickens's childhood? Looks as if the author spoke to quite a few people in the Rochester area while researching it.
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Interesting though! Thanks.
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I finished David Copperfield yesterday. I couldn't go on reading with everyone after chapter 24 but when I could go on reading as I read every chapter, I read the summaries and everyone's comments about them. So I felt like I read with everyone and enjoyed reading that way. I can't say it was easy to go on and I don't think I could finish the book and enjoy as much as I had if it wasn't a buddy read. Jean, your summaries were so helpful and If it weren't for them I could miss so much. I can't thank you enough for your effort and the time you spent. With that, I enjoyed reading everyone's comments which made me feel like I was reading with everyone.
I enjoyed the story and aunt Betsy was my favorite character. I couldn't guess at the beginning of the story I would love her so much. And I loved how Dickens didn't leave any character with an unfinished story. Until he mentions Mr. Mell I had forgotten him thoroughly but enjoyed hearing about him too. And Mr. Micawber always achieved to surprise me. It was my first long book I read (before that I only read Christmas Carol) which Dickens wrote and I'm really glad that was a buddy read otherwise I'm not sure if I would enjoy this much.
Rosemarie wrote: "I am an Aunt Betsy fan too!"Can't help it. :)
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Mr. Mell is one of those characters who is missed out of any dramatisation, but it seems such a shame, as he is such a good man.
Thank you for your kind words about my summaries. That means a lot to me. Yes, they take a long time but I do enjoy doing them - it helps me too, to concentrate on what is important :) And as I keep them as neutral and objective as possible, others can skim through them if they like, and just read the comments. I do worry a bit that they may not be ready each day ... but so far it has worked :) I'm enormously pleased that they help, because I cannot imagine reading Charles Dickens's tortuous English when English is not your first language.
The fact that you have read his longest novel, in English, is I think something to be very proud of. Well done Nisa! I'm so very pleased you stayed with it - and that you enjoyed it so much :)
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Congratulations on finishing, Nisa. I don't think you will find anyone here who isn't in love with Aunt Betsy. :)
Nisa, it's great to see another comment here. It's wonderful that you enjoyed David Copperfield and quite an accomplishment to read it in English!I'm also on Team Aunt Betsy. She's a wonderful character.
Nisa wrote: "I finished David Copperfield yesterday. I couldn't go on reading with everyone after chapter 24 but when I could go on reading as I read every chapter, I read the summaries and everyone's comments ..."Nisa, I’m happy to see that you finished David Copperfield. I can understand you: Dickens is not easy to read for a not-English-mother-tongue. But David Copperfield is such a great book, and the discussion was so enjoyable that I managed to read the novel with the group, even though reading a chapter a day was not an easy task, and sometimes I fell behind.
I’m looking forward to reading Little Dorrit, and if this time if I don’t succeed in keeping up with the group, I’ll do like you did: I don’t want to miss the discussion. :-) I hope you are joining this one too.
Needles to say, I’m also a fan of aunt Betsey.
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Now you've read his longest novel, and I'm delighted to hear that you'll be reading along with Little Dorrit in a couple of weeks as well :)
Thank you, Jean. I'm glad I stayed with it. In the end, it was worth all the effort I put into reading. :))Thank you, Sara, Petra. You two are right; it would be really hard to find anyone who doesn't love her, she is a wonderful character.
As you said Milena, Dickens is not easy to read for me. But David Copperfield is a great book, and the discussion was so enjoyable and to have Jean's summaries were really helpful. When we read Little Dorrit, I hope you enjoy and can keep up with everyone again. I will try to do that if I can. (I hope something won't come out at the last minute). But if you can't keep up I suggest you do what I did too (I felt like I was reading with everyone but of course time to time I wanted to comment though :) )
With all that, I should admit I took the easy way out from time to time. Like while reading Mr. and Mrs. Micawber's letters I couldn't understand what they want to say actually and read it twice (In the end I didn't understand though.). So I just skip it and finished that chapter thinking that if there is something important I will see in Jean's summary. I did that couple of times (like in the chapter Ham and Steerforth died but I don't remember all chapters I did that :) ) and so summaries were a blessing. And I wouldn't have any suspicion about Emily having a child or not and so on.
I, for one, admire you so much, Nisa. Reading this in English must have been very difficult. Jean has given us the perfect way to read and understand Dickens with these slow reads, and I am sure we would all be happy to help if you run across anything that just doesn't make sense for you. And, I would have missed the subtle hints that Emily was pregnant as well without the group.
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You said that you sometimes wanted to reply when you were reading later. If you want to comment, even though we have passed that chapter, then please do! Others have done this too, and it's very welcome. There won't be any spoilers in what you post. Plus as long as you say exactly where you are, hopefully any one replying will be careful as well.
I agree with Sara, that a discussion can bring out all sorts of observations and ideas. Yes, you're right, I try to include all the important plot aspects, although with some of the foreshadowing I have to leave it, or it would become far too obvious!
Nisa wrote: “...while reading Mr. and Mrs. Micawber's letters I couldn't understand what they want to say actually and read it twice...”Ha ha ha… I had problems with Micawber’s letters too. His “style” really drove me crazy, and like you, I had to read the letter more than once to understand what he meant. And the fact that Micawber was not one of my favourite characters didn’t definitely help.
Nisa wrote: “And I wouldn't have any suspicion about Emily having a child or not and so on.
Oh, I completely missed that one too. It was fun, after reading Jean’s summary, to go back to the chapter and look for the clues that revealed Emily’s possible pregnancy.
It’s never too late to comment. Members will be alerted that there are new comments.
We all check comments even months later... as we are doing now! I do admire people reading it in english as a second language who haven't read a lot of 19th Century litterature, I have found it's almost like learning another dialect and it took me years, but reading it in it's original form has a lot of rewards, you do get what the author really meant with his words.
Nisa wrote: "Thank you, Jean. I'm glad I stayed with it. In the end, it was worth all the effort I put into reading. :))Thank you, Sara, Petra. You two are right; it would be really hard to find anyone who do..."
English is my first language, but I still have problems understanding some parts of books written by 19th century authors. Like you, if I cannot understand something after reading it a couple of times I just move on. Sometimes the meaning becomes clearer from the context, sometimes not. Jean's summaries do help a lot.
Nisa, I wouldn't have picked up on Emily being pregnant without the group discussion either. That was subtly slipped into the story.
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That's why I'd really love to be able to read classic authors not in translation, such as Chinese or Russian poetry in their original language. I'm sure there are many more levels of nuance.
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I’ve finished! I wish to thank each and every one of you for the great discussion. I read every post and they greatly enhanced my understanding of David Copperfield. Jean, your summaries and discussion starters are wonderful. The pictures you post from various illustrators are dancing around in my head. There were so many posts that I wanted to respond to, but the comments would just end up at the end with this one.
I agree that David fell in love with Dora because she reminded him of his mother. They both are pretty, sweet and not practical.
I think that Steerforth was a sociopath; he had no conscious.
Tommy Traddles was one of my favorite characters. I worried that he would never be able to marry Sophie.
While Micawber was important to the plotting and for some comic relief, he became tiresome. I thought he would never be off to Australia.
And, like many of you, I think that Aunt Betsey Trotwood was very favorite character, after David. Maggie Smith made a perfect Trotwood in the 1999 mini series.
I think David is a good person because he deeply cares for the people around him.
Jean should be nominated as the best Goodreads moderator for all of her work in this group. Let’s give her three loud cheers. Hurrah! Hurrah! Hurrah!
I listened to the audio book which was narrated by Richard Armitage.
Congratulations on finishing David Copperfield Kathleen!Tommy Traddles was one of my favourite characters too. I loved Aunt Betsey, and I am a proud member of the Aunt Betsey Fun Club, in which you are very welcome.
What you just did with the discussion of David Copperfield, I am doing it with the discussion of Little Dorrit: I am reading now the posts that were written about one month ago, and I am thoroughly enjoying them. And of course, I'm joining you in giving three loud cheers to our moderator. :-)
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Yes, we often forget Tommy Traddles I think - but he is one of Charles Dickens's true heroes: a great creation :)
I’ve read quite a big deal of DC, just finished 51st chapter and I was touched by Ham’s words….(view spoiler)
Now that I’m close to the end and really proud to say I might finish it by next week I’m really curious to know about Heep. And I really want nothing but happiness for Agnes, she’s such a lovely character.
Charles Dickens did a very fine job with all the characters here, they all will stay with me for a long time.
Agnes is a lovely character, I agree.Uriah Heep on the other hand.......
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Yes, Ham is the salt of the earth. In many ways he is a true hero.
I think you're right about Miss Dartle. She is a complex character, but at the root of it all is a jealousy which has eaten away at her for many years. Also, she belongs to a rich family who believe that poor people are little better than animals. She is distraught not to have Steerforth for herself, but feels additionally slighted. It is a bitter insult to her, that he should prefer such a girl as Emily.
I can't wait for you to finish this book Ananya, and see what you think! It's quite a breathtaking ending :)
I did finish and I loved it. It’s a true masterpiece. The last 4-5 chapters were really heavy and made me quite emotional. Having read it for almost 2 months, now I just feel a void in my heart.
I’m proud I was able to finish this in 2021 and this also happens to be the book with which I completed my yearly reading goal. :)
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"now I just feel a void in my heart" - oh yes, lots of us understand that feeling. Be sure to join us for our next read, as we'll get just as involved with the plots and characters there :)
Hello everyone. I finished the book today, I have been reading it the past three months together with Jean's summaries and all of your comments. Thank you very much, you have enormously enhanced my enjoyment of the book!
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Well done Daniela, and thank you for saying. I'm absolutely delighted that you enjoyed it all so much, and hope you will be with us next month, when we embark on another novel 😊
So glad you enjoyed it, Daniela. This group was my first reading of David Copperfield and I thought the discussion enhanced it wonderfully.
Delighted you read and enjoyed it, Daniela. I think Jean has devised the perfect way to read Dickens!
Bionic Jean wrote: "I found this a heart-rending scene, and a most satisfying one to read. Even though it is sentimental, it has none of the annoyances of the pouting child-wife. I love it when [author:Charles Dicke..."
Chapter 45 is being such a refreshing change of pace! I am so delighted to hear from Aunt Betsey again! She made my morning with her parenthetical commentary in this scence.
‘A specimen of the thanks one gets,’ cried Mrs. Markleham, in tears, ‘for taking care of one’s family! I wish I was a Turk!’
(‘I wish you were, with all my heart—and in your native country!’ said my aunt.)
It's masterful writing. I would not enjoy or the comedy or the very emotional sections.
And I adored the very last comic beat:
‘She was quite overcome, I am afraid,’ said Mr. Dick, with great commiseration.
‘What! Did you ever see a crocodile overcome?’ inquired my aunt.
‘I don’t think I ever saw a crocodile,’ returned Mr. Dick, mildly.
The final moment of David's introspection as he thinks about what makes a marriage a rock in the world -- wonderful.
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I have finished reading the novel and the comments, and now it's my turn to say thank you to all the participants of this read, and especially to Jean, who has created this space for in-depth reading.These threads contain a lot of insightful and clever comments, and I'm trying not to repeat anything that has already been said, - unless I feel so strongly on a subject that I just have to say it :)
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Dora's death
I must say, it's an enviable death. She did get to grieve for her parents, but she didn't get to experience the excruciating pain of outliving her beloved pet. She died surrounded with love and comfort, and didn't have to go through
Also, she had the hereditary trait of dying conveniently at the appropriate moment.
Also, it's chilling to think that the author was thus fantasizing about the death of his imperfect wife.
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Steerforth
I enjoyed your reflections on whether he's the good, the bad, or the ugly. Like Sara, my experience with very charming people has taught me to dislike them. But the point of view that he might have been a representation of Dickens's dark side is interesting, and, surpisingly, very reminiscent of how Du Maurier wrote about her work.
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At the beginning of this read, Jean mentioned Maugham's essay. Since I have his 10 Novels and Their Authors and enjoyed some of his thoughts on other novels, I was eager to pull this book out. 70% of this article are biographical facts that would be familiar to most of the participants of the group, and Maugham does not view them 'with eyes of compassion' (in the words of another author).
'He never showed the development of characters and, on the whole, what his creatures were at the beginning they remain at the end. [...] The danger of drawing character in this way is that the limits of plausibility may be exceeded, and the result is caricature. Caricature is all well when the author presents you with a character at whom you can laugh, as you can at Mr. Micawber, but it will not serve when he expects you to sympathise. Dickens was never particularly successful with his female characters unless, like Mrs. Micawber, with her "I will never desert Mr. Micawbwer", and Betsy Trotwood, they were caricatured. Dora, drawn after Dickens's first love, Maria Beadnell, is too silly and too childish; Agnes, drawn after Mary and Georgy Hogarth, is too good and too sensible; they are both fearfully tiresome.'
And so on. I cannot say I enjoyed this article, and it's hard to believe that Maugham enjoyed the novel.
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There is one sentiment in Maugham's essasy, though, that I feel some participants of the discussion would agree with:
'He [David] remains the least interesting person in the book.'
I do not know about that, but he's certainly not the most likeable. I enjoyed most reading about Aunt Betsey, Traddles, and the Micawbers - and I never found the Micawbers tiresome.
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Mr Murdstone the vampyre remains unchecked, as usually happens with vampires; Uriah and Littimer are well-fed and admired, - this is a bit depressing (or maybe not a bit).
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Traddles won my heart with this statement:
'You put that in a parlour window,’ said Traddles, falling a little back from it to survey it with the greater admiration, ‘with a plant in it, and—and there you are!'
I have numerous plants and caring for them in the heat of summer is excruciating; yet I find it endearing that somebody thinks that if they have a flower-pot, they have half of the job done.
To a modern reader, the fact that Sophy's sisters are staying with the couple so often might seem an imposition; the author, though, might have found it pleasurable to be surrounded by so many young and pretty girls. Anyway, Traddles obviously does not suffer from this, and I'm happy for him.
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Once again, thank you for this read! :)
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Dickensians!
Books mentioned in this topic
10 Novels and Their Authors (other topics)David Copperfield (other topics)
Little Dorrit (other topics)
Little Dorrit (other topics)
Little Dorrit (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
J. M. Wayfarer (other topics)Charles Dickens (other topics)
Charles Dickens (other topics)
Charles Dickens (other topics)
Robert Langton (other topics)
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Maybe Dickens was so attached to David that he didn't realize that he made him so passive? It's hard to write about yourself, even in fiction, I would think.