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Fight the Powers: What the Bible Says About the Relationship Between Spiritual Forces and Human Governments
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message 301:
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Robert
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Aug 11, 2018 07:52AM
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Robert is like children playing in the market place.“We sang a dirge and you did not mourn. We played the flute for you and you did not dance”.
Btw that’s Jesus own words...
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Until they don't treat you that way
You condemn yourself
Mod
Robert wrote: "You are the one who said you allegedly treat people with respectUntil they don't treat you that way"
No, Robert, that isn't what I said. And remember, due to your flagrant disregard for accuracy and consistently claiming I've said something I have not, you're now to present the actual quote along with a link back to the post you are quoting.
I'll also point out that you yourself clearly feel it's perfectly fine to treat people rudely, as well has hatefully, and dishonestly, and with complete contempt.
So, you have no moral capital on which to stand on the topic.
Take the log out of your own eye, Robert.
Steve wrote: "Robert is like children playing in the market place.“We sang a dirge and you did not mourn. We played the flute for you and you did not dance”.
Btw that’s Jesus own words..."
This is applicable:
23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
5 “Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.
8 “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.
13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.
16 “Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gold of the temple is bound by that oath.’ 17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18 You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.’ 19 You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 Therefore, anyone who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22 And anyone who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the one who sits on it.
23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!
33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’"
Matthew 23
Robert wrote: "But you will just lie and deny you said it"And here we see the reason Robert refuses to accurately quote me and provide a link back to the post containing the quote.
Because he loves to claim I said something I did not say, then claim I am a liar when I prove him wrong. Obviously hoping no one else can actually read this thread, or remember who said what.
And he does this because he's a flagrant liar. This is the fourth time in three days I've proven it. And yet rather than correct his behavior, he stubbornly continues his sinful ways.
Here is what I actually said:
"I treat people with respect until/unless they demonstrate to me they are not worthy of respect."
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Here is what Robert claims I said:
Robert wrote: "You are the one who said you allegedly treat people with respect
Until they don't treat you that way"
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Yet again, Robert's lie misrepresenting me is proven.
Here's the thing guys,There are a lot of tricks and deceptions that those who aren't here to engage in honest dialog employ. In my experience typically they are those who cannot "win" simply using truth and facts. And what they care about is "winning", not truth or facts.
The inordinately sad thing about Robert, and what he does, is that for all I know his basic theology is sound, although clearly he doesn't have the skills needed to convey that or discuss that in any clear and reasonable fashion.
Not to mention the damage he does to Christians and Christianity, as well as his own witness and ministry, by employing such tactics.
These tactics are often used to avoid addressing what someone has presented, or the topic at hand, deflect away from that issue, divert attention away from the fact that they cannot address it. And often as an attempt to smear and insult a person when they cannot refute what that person is saying but don't want to admit they cannot.
I encourage anyone interested in internet discussions to familiarize themselves with logical fallacies, as well as laws of logic. Most especially Christians engaging in witnessing, apologetics and/or theological discussions.
These tactics are often used by non-Christians in order to attempt to refute Christianity when they (of course) are unable to do so using truth, facts and logic. Sadly we see there are also some who claim to be Christians who employ them as well.
Christians stand upon the Truth. And when you've got the truth, and are defending and presenting what is true, there are no need for lies, deception, trickery, nor any other deceptive, dishonest, unethical behavior. And such things only serve to give the appearance one doesn't have the truth, as well as demonstrating one is not in possession of good, Christian, character.
This all basically started (this time) from Robert apparently wanting to refute what Cody was saying, but not being able to do so. So, he resorted to making a claim and accusation, but not actually backing it up. Here:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Even if Robert were correct in his assessment here (not saying he was), merely stating this isn't a valid argument, nor does it actually refute anything. He appears to think "because I say so" should be accepted as a valid argument. It of course is not.
This post is nothing more than an ad hominem attack, a red herring, and an unsubstantiated claim. He's basically just saying he reads the Bible the right way, and Cody doesn't. Even if that were true it still does absolutely nothing to demonstrate what Cody is saying is incorrect, how it's incorrect, why it's incorrect, and what exactly is correct. He might as well have just said, "You're wrong, so there!"
Even if a person were inclined to disagree with Cody, they still would have learned nothing, nor been enlightened in any meaningful way, by this exchange. It was a pointless jab, designed to serve Robert's ego, and nothing more.
Others, of course, challenged this assertion, and Robert clearly wasn't up to the task of explaining it, backing it up and/or engaging in the topic at hand with any actual substance.
He became increasingly belligerent and insulting, all a smoke screen to deflect away from the actual topic, and his inability to address it in any legitimate or reasonable way.
And no doubt also to indulge himself in what is clearly a favorite hobby - targeting me with his vitriol.
The thing about the Bible is that so many people are familiar with it, but read into it what they've been taught it says, what they believe it says, and with their own subjective lens. Most especially those in false religions that have perverted Scripture, such as Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses, but also Christians to various degrees. And sometimes it's just honest misunderstandings of the text, or due to simply not being as familiar or studied as others. Sometimes we were just taught something wrong along the way, and we need to learn more and correct ourselves.
Because of this it's typically not enough to simply pull verses and passages out of context, post them, and rest on your laurels as if you've proven something. Because your audience is likely going to read there exactly what they expect to see, just as they always have. While you're seeing something different. Regardless of who is right or who is wrong, you've accomplished nothing.
Not to mention the fact that properly understanding what Scripture says on a particular topic often requires taking many passages within Scripture into account. And then there's the fact that anyone can rip a verse or passage out of context to make it seem like Scripture says nearly anything.
Witnessing, teaching and apologetics all require we not only have good Biblical knowledge, but also that we listen and learn what those we're speaking to think and believe, with a mind to understand it accurately. It's very difficult to address questions, clear up misunderstandings and misconceptions and deal with errors, if we refuse to listen. We cannot simply speak AT people, we must engage in dialog WITH them. It also accomplishes nothing to argue against something they do not believe, nor insist they accept something they already accept.
Which means we Christians need to be knowledgeable enough about Scripture to not only quote it, but be able to explain it, in our own words, so we're sure we're conveying to the other person, at the very least, what it is we're attempting to show from those passages.
Otherwise you can have a Christian and a Mormon both saying they agree with a passage while at the same time both taking it to mean very different things, and no understanding of what either believes or is wanting to convey is achieved. In short, actual communication with comprehension does not occur.
This is one reason why, although he prides himself on not offering "opinions" - when explaining Scripture isn't the same as offering an opinion - Robert tends to fail in any sort of meaningful communication.
I don't know if he understands the Bible. I do know he doesn't understand it well enough to be able to explain it or teach it to others. He certainly doesn't understand it well enough to be able to address honest and legitimate questions.
And even that would be ok, if he were simply willing to admit it. We aren't all experts, and we all come to Biblical study at different levels, and we all have things we can learn. There's no shame in that. And we all have different talents and gifts. Many people understand the Bible well enough, but aren't good at explaining it to others or dealing with challenging questions. That's fine too. What is not fine is becoming belligerent and insulting in order to try to spare your ego rather than accept your limitations and learn and grow.
Shoot, even saying something like, "That's not how I understand it, but I'm not really knowledgeable enough to be able to refute it." is perfectly fine.
Mod
Just like all bullies
Compares others to Hitler
Lies about people
Uses vulgarity
Agree with her and you are ok... Disagree with her and... Watch out
Robert wrote: [does anyone truly care at this point?]Logical Fallacy: Ad hominem.
Here's another example:Cody wrote: "Is it your position that Paul is communicating how the state *should* function, that he is using irony, or that Paul (who murdered Christians on behalf of political authorities, who was stoned himself, and whose Messiah was wrongly crucified by the Roman empire) is actually saying that the state truly does perform all of its functions as direct representatives of God?"
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Notice what Cody is doing here, he's asking a clarifying question in order get a handle on Robert's position. Quite a reasonable thing, and necessary in order to engage in any sort of productive dialog.
Here is Robert's response:
Robert wrote: "My response: My position is exactly what the Bible says. What is your position?
See what Robert does there? He sidesteps the question, and simply claims he believes whatever the Bible says. This is problematic for several reasons.
First, claiming his position is exactly what the Bible says doesn't mean his position actually is exactly what the Bible says, only that he (presumably) thinks it is. But, as clearly he intended, doesn't give any information that would allow us to judge the truth and validity of that claim, nor to dispute his position were it actually in error - or at least if it were a point people disagreed upon.
Also, he's engaging on a topic where others are Christians. Presumably everyone engaged in the conversation feels they believe what the Bible says. Sure we can be wrong, or even off a bit, sure we can learn from others, and from discussing Biblical issues. But simply claiming to believe what the Bible says isn't productive to any of that. It can also lead to confusion and people taking that to mean Robert thinks as they think, regardless of if that's true or not.
Cody makes this point here:
Interestingly enough, my Calvinist and Arminian friends claim that they believe "exactly what the Bible says." So do my Jehovah's Witness friends. In fact, I also think my position is exactly what the Bible says! And yet, I suspect our positions don't match. ;-) "
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Additionally Robert essentially shuts down the dialog, at least as far as dialoging with him.
On top of that even if he were correct, he provides no information by which to learn from, or correct any wrong understandings.
Imagine what the conversation would look like, and how productive or illuminating it would be, if everyone had just said "My position is exactly what the Bible says."
All he's done here is provide what is in essence a non-response, while cloaking himself in his own self-righteous superiority.
Mod
* Compare people to Hitler
* Apologize for derailing a thread
* Continue to keep the thread off track
* Lie about people
* Keep lying
* Get caught and exposed lying
* Justify her lies
* Keep lying some more
* Use vulgarities in her posts
All of these are true and can be readily seen in this thread. (For the Hitler comment, check out message #11 at the beginning of this thread. It did not take long for her to go on the attack.)
Robert wrote: [does anyone truly care at this point?]Logical Fallacy: Ad hominem.
Mod
Logical Fallacy: Ad hominem."
My response: 100% TRUE ...
Anyone seeking the truth go and read Message #11 in this thread... verify that Alexandra the POMPOUS compared Joel with Hitler!
_____________
She said that Hitler would have loved Joel. Here is the link:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Robert wrote: "Alexandra wrote: "Robert wrote: [does anyone truly care at this point?]Logical Fallacy: Ad hominem."
My response: 100% TRUE ... "
Robert, darlin', it of course isn't true, however whether something is true or false has no bearing on it being an ad hominem attack.
And really, this crush you have on me has become a complete embarrassment. Does your wife know of your obsession? Clearly you have no ecclesiastical oversight, so I won't ask about that ;)
Mod
My response: No attacks... statements of FACTS!
Mod
* Compare people to Hitler (2nd paragraph)
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
* Apologize for derailing a thread (Message # 179 and she continues at least until Message # 322 )
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
* Continue to keep the thread off track
* Lie about people
* Keep lying
* Get caught and exposed lying
* Justify her lies (2nd to last paragraph)
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
* Keep lying some more
* Use vulgarities in her posts (last paragraph)
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
All of these are true and can be readily seen in this thread. (For the Hitler comment, check out message #11 at the beginning of this thread. It did not take long for her to go on the attack.)
Ok, well past time for a bit of an English Lesson:COMPARISONS
In English, how do we compare one thing to another thing? Or, one person to another person?
One way is using the word "like".
Sam is like Joe.
Joe acts just like Sam.
Sam laughs like Joe.
Joe sounds just like Sam.
Sam looks so much like Joe it's hard to tell them apart.
Get the picture? Good. Moving on...
We can also make positive or negative comparisons. For example:
Joe is much nicer than Sam.
Sam is smarter than Joe.
Joe is better looking than Sam.
Joe is mean as spit, Sam is gentle and kind.
Notice a pattern here? Great!
Now, let's see an example of something that's been continuously accused of being a comparison:
Sam would have loved Joe.
Does that sentence compare Joe to Sam?
No class, it does not.
Mod
My response: Joel, myself, and who knows who else understood what you said exactly as you said it...
You said that " Hitler would have loved " Joel.
But of course you don't care what you actually wrote. You are squirming to try and dodge the truth.
Robert wrote: "You said that " Hitler would have loved " Joel."Yup, I did. Of course you're not including the context of that statement.
Joel and you both misunderstood what I said. With Joel it was likely simply a mistake, which I corrected. With you it was either due to your lack of English comprehension or your tendency to read into text what you want to see rather than what it actually says. Proven by the fact that you have claimed I've said things I have not said over and over and over and over.
You tend to read what you want me to have said, what it serves you if I would have said, rather than what I actually said because you hate me and love to try to smear and insult me, and you don't care about truth or honesty or integrity or ethics. You do it to not only me, but others that question, challenge, or disagree with you.
I am not responsible for your reading disability or your flawed moral compass.
That statement doesn't compare Joel to Hitler, you moron. Which you should now understand after my little English lesson, even if you truly did not previously.
It is well past time you stopped bashing people over the head for your perception of their behavior and started LOOKING IN A DAMNED MIRROR.
Mod
Yup, I did. Of course you're not including the context of that statement..."
My response: Sure it is mine AND Joel's fault.
You stated that " "Hitler would have loved" Joel.
I am not sure in which universe this statement is NOT a vile slam upon the recipient.
No matter how often you whine about it not meaning what it clearly says... your protesting does not change the FACTS.
Robert wrote: "No matter how often you whine about it not meaning what it clearly says... your protesting does not change the FACTS. "HAHAHAHAHA
I'm not "whining" about what it "clearly says". I've explained to you now, and even provided you with an English lesson including examples, that it doesn't say what you claim it says.
You have GOT to be a troll. No one could possibly be as stupid as you are portraying yourself to be. Maybe you're a 16 year old atheist boy in Albuquerque who stole the persona of the guy running a Christian ministry in order to try to smear Christians by posing as one then acting like a complete ass.
I am not responsible for your reading disability or your flawed moral compass.
It is well past time you stopped bashing people over the head for your perception of their behavior and started LOOKING IN A DAMNED MIRROR.
Mod
My response: Your efforts at SELF-JUSTIFICATION are sad. Let the TRUTH be known...
You stated that " Hitler would have loved " Joel.
No self-serving explanation exists that can make this SLAM an acceptable and harmless comment.
