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Fight the Powers: What the Bible Says About the Relationship Between Spiritual Forces and Human Governments
I have not heard that connection. Paul states the exact opposite in Romans 13:1-2: "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves."
Peter agrees as well in 1 Peter 2:13:
"Submit yourself for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men; whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right.
Hard to see how political power is rooted in demonic power...
Agreed, Cody! Daniel 10 and Ephesians 6:10-12 come to mind, and lots of verses in Revelation attest to what you're saying. The brothers and sisters we pray with in Africa and the Middle East are much more aware of the demonic influences in gov't than many in the West. Glad you are shedding light on it so we can pray more effectively for "kings, rulers, and all those in authority so that we can live peaceful lives in all godliness."Best wishes on your book!
Agreed, Cody! Daniel 10 and Ephesians 6:10-12 come to mind, and lots of verses in Revelation attest to what you're saying. The brothers and sisters we pray with in Africa and the Middle East are much more aware of the demonic influences in gov't than many in the West. Glad you are shedding light on it so we can pray more effectively for "kings, rulers, and all those in authority so that we can live peaceful lives in all godliness."Best wishes on your book!
Sorry guys for the double comment… I'm on my phone and can't seem to erase the duplicate.Rod, so right :)
Daniel chapter 10 has a clear demonstration of demonic forces over nations. When an angel (presumably Gabriel) tried to deliver a message to Daniel, he was withheld from delivering the message for 21 days by "the prince of the kingdom of Persia". This prince obviously had to be a demon to fight against Gabriel. It wasn't until the archangel Michael showed up that Gabriel could get through to deliver the message.So yes, I believe demonic forces control or strongly influence the political process. Liberal or conservative ... it doesn't matter.
Joel wrote: "Hard to see how political power is rooted in demonic power... "I'd have to say then you're not looking very hard.
Yes, God sets up rulers, and of course has power and authority over all things. Yes, in general, we're to obey authorities over us.
However, like all things, man, and institutions of men, can be, and do, become corrupted at times, and influenced by evil. It's not that hard to look at examples of that in governments, as well as other institutions of authority.
And also as in all things, one must take the totality of Scripture into account, and everything it says on the topic. Tyrone has provided another example to consider.
I can't imagine anyone claiming that every government, everywhere, throughout history, has been righteous, and would be correct for Christians to obey in all things and in all ways.
There are just too many obvious examples to the contrary.
I wish that government was good but with everything going on in our government today, I really wonder what is going on. Yes, I do obey all the laws and rules that have been set out. I would challenge everyone to find honest politicians anywhere. Or is it a matter of, this one is not as corrupt as this one?
Alexandra wrote: "Joel wrote: "Hard to see how political power is rooted in demonic power... "I'd have to say then you're not looking very hard.
Yes, God sets up rulers, and of course has power and authority over..."
Two points:
1) Nero was the Emperor of Rome when Paul wrote Romans. Despite the well-known fact that Nero had gained power and maintained it through multiple political murders and despite the fact that Nero was one of the most evil persecutor of Christians ever -- Paul wrote Romans 13.
So if Paul did not label Nero as subject to demonic power -- how do we think WE have the discernment to make that judgment?
2) I certainly realize that ALL governments fall short of God's glory because they are comprised of imperfect people.
But Paul and Peter command us to obey these governments even so -- not because they always do God's will, but because God wills us to live under authority rather than each man being his own judge and own ruler...
Joel wrote: "But Paul and Peter command us to obey these governments even so -- not because they always do God's will, but because God wills us to live under authority rather than each man being his own judge and own ruler... "Hitler would have loved you, the Jews, the disabled, the Gypsies, etc., not so much.
You miss the fact that the authority of governmental authorities is limited. There are things they rightfully have authority over, and things they do not. Give to Caesar what is Caesar's...
I stand by what I said, as in all things, one must take the totality of Scripture into account, and everything it says on the topic.
Yes, God sets up rulers, and of course has power and authority over all things. Yes, in general, we're to obey authorities over us. However, there is a higher authority than man-made governments, and when they conflict I certainly know Who I will obey.
Alexandra wrote: "Joel wrote: "But Paul and Peter command us to obey these governments even so -- not because they always do God's will, but because God wills us to live under authority rather than each man being hi..."So I'm a Nazi because I don't choose to label every evil government as demonic? Wow.
Do you really believe that every evildoer is demon-possessed?
And if not, how do YOU pick and choose which sinners to label as such?
If you want to make a case for limited disobedience under exigent circumstances, that would be one thing --
MY point is that I see NO way for YOU to decide which governments are demonic and which ones are not -- and human efforts to apply such labels are not useful...
Unless you have received special revelation.
Has GOD spoken to you?
Joel wrote: "So I'm a Nazi because I don't choose to label every evil government as demonic? Wow."That isn't what I said.
"MY point is that I see NO way for YOU to decide which governments are demonic and which ones are not -- and human efforts to apply such labels are not useful..."
Where have I said anything about "human efforts"? What I said was, "I stand by what I said, as in all things, one must take the totality of Scripture into account, and everything it says on the topic."
"If you want to make a case for limited disobedience under exigent circumstances, that would be one thing --"
You don't seem to be actually reading what I said. I've never said anything whatsoever about unlimited disobedience. In fact, quite the opposite:
"Yes, God sets up rulers, and of course has power and authority over all things. Yes, in general, we're to obey authorities over us. However, there is a higher authority than man-made governments, and when they conflict I certainly know Who I will obey. "
"Has GOD spoken to you?"
God has spoken to all of us. You yourself have quoted the Bible, so I assume you're aware of that fact.
You appear to be simply spoiling for an argument. I'm not interested.
Tyrone wrote: "Daniel chapter 10 has a clear demonstration of demonic forces over nations. When an angel (presumably Gabriel) tried to deliver a message to Daniel, he was withheld from delivering the message for ..."While many bible scholars agree with your interpretation of Daniel 10, there are several respected scholars who believe the "prince" referred to was actually the prince Cambyses who ruled while the king was absent and was opposing the Jewish plans to rebuild the temple.
Under this interpretation, the angels did not FORCE Cambyses to alter his plans but more subtly influenced him which took time and reinforcements. Given that God does not FORCE us to do good, but gives us free will -- I think that could be a reasonable interpretation. But I realize that this is a minority view.
My larger point is that WE lack the ability to determine for ourselves which governments are demonic and which are not, so it's not a useful label to apply...
Joel wrote: "My larger point is that WE lack the ability to determine for ourselves which governments are demonic and which are not, so it's not a useful label to apply... "And my point is WE don't need the ability. We have God's Word. And if you consider that not useful in determining what evil is and what it isn't, then that's a completely different conversation.
Alexandra wrote: "Joel wrote: "So I'm a Nazi because I don't choose to label every evil government as demonic? Wow."That isn't what I said.
"MY point is that I see NO way for YOU to decide which governments are d..."
YOU wrap Hitler around my neck but I'M the one spoiling for an argument?
Alexandra wrote: "Joel wrote: "My larger point is that WE lack the ability to determine for ourselves which governments are demonic and which are not, so it's not a useful label to apply... "And my point is WE don..."
The starting point of this thread was the idea that political power is connected to demonic power.
That's what I replied to.
YOU are the one trying to change it to a referenda on the limits of political power and the abuses thereof...
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My response: It is good to see that she does not just rail against me... apparently it is aimed at anyone who does not agree with her.
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As for demonic influence in governments...
* I definitely believe that there is such influence. satan is the god of this world.
2 Corinthians 4:4 - "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not..."
* I also believe that all power and authority is set up and taken down by God; therefore, demonic power is limited by God (as in the example of Job).
Romans 13:1 - "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God."
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God is indeed the ultimate Power and Authority... but satan and demonic forces hold limited (by God) authority in this world.
Joel wrote: "Tyrone wrote: "Daniel chapter 10 has a clear demonstration of demonic forces over nations. When an angel (presumably Gabriel) tried to deliver a message to Daniel, he was withheld from delivering t..."I'm not advocating which nations are or are not under demonic influence. The Bible demonstrates that Persia (now Iran) was. It would be unrealistic, in my view, to assume Persia was, or is, the only one. One thing is clear, the actions of world governments is not consistent with what God requires. That's why God's "day of wrath" is coming and a Tribulation Period is on the horizon.
True, many people interpret biblical events many different ways. Some even deny the literal birth, death and resurrection of Christ. To them, it's all symbolic. That's their prerogative. There's too many biblical examples of angels (including demons) active in the world to dismiss their involvement in man's affairs. At the end of the day, we believe what the Bible says about an event or we don't.
Robert wrote: "It is good to see that she does not just rail against me... apparently it is aimed at anyone who does not agree with her."If that is what you think then you've also misread my posts. Which doesn't surprise me in the least.
I didn't "rail against" anyone here, and am debating nothing. I simply made a point, which apparently zoomed over your head, as well as Joel's.
Disagreement doesn't bother me, but I do find it tiresome to have to continuously repeat what I've already said, due to assumptions and accusations I've said something I did not. So, I'm not going to continue to bother.
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My response: You repeatedly called me a LIAR (when I repeatedly stated the TRUTH)…
...then you JUSTIFIED your LIES and abuse
...then you did not have the decency to apologize...
Yes, that is railing !
At least you did not compare me to Hitler as you have done to Joel in this thread.
Joel wrote: "YOU are the one trying to change it to a referenda on the limits of political power and the abuses thereof... "Oh sheesh, I did not try "to change it to a referenda on the limits of political power and the abuses thereof".
I responded with my thoughts on the topic, just like everyone else.
Which, you clearly misunderstood.
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My response: Apparently you were not too tired to repeatedly call me a LIAR... when in fact, I was stating the TRUTH.
Cody wrote: "To begin with, I'm curious how many folks here have heard in church the idea that political power is connected with demonic power. How many of you have come across it in your Bible reading?"If it's your premise that "political power" and governmental authority is inherently demonic I'd have to say that's clearly contrary to scripture, and as false as an assertion that governmental authority is inherently righteous.
Tyrone wrote: " There's too many biblical examples of angels (including demons) active in the world to dismiss their involvement in man's affairs. At the end of the day, we believe what the Bible says about an event or we don't. "Well said :D
It is amusing:Some gatherings of demons accomplish nothing more than jumping into pigs.
Others make people flail about naked and frothing.
And yet: revelation 16
13 And I saw, coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs.
So there are some political demons. What do we do about it? Pray... and let the angels do Their job.
Alexandra wrote: "Cody wrote: "To begin with, I'm curious how many folks here have heard in church the idea that political power is connected with demonic power. How many of you have come across it in your Bible rea..."To be a little more specific, Genesis 10-11 and Deuteronomy 32:8-9 (in the DSS and LXX as reflected in the ESV) tell us that God gave up the nations to lesser spiritual powers but chose Israel for Himself. So not ALL political power is under demonic superintendence inherently, but all political power outside of the God-ordained theocracy is. Since there is no such power any longer, but only a spiritual kingdom of God distinguished from the kingdoms of the world (see John 18:36), it is now the case that all political power is under demonic superintendence.
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1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God , and those that exist have been instituted by God .
2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed , and those who resist will incur judgment .
3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval,
4 for he is God's servant for your good . But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.
5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.
Robert wrote: "Romans 13:1-5 (ESV)1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For
there is no authority except from God
, and those that exist
have been instituted by God
.
2 Therefore wh..."
Is it your position that Paul is communicating how the state *should* function, that he is using irony, or that Paul (who murdered Christians on behalf of political authorities, who was stoned himself, and whose Messiah was wrongly crucified by the Roman empire) is actually saying that the state truly does perform all of its functions as direct representatives of God?
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My response: My position is exactly what the Bible says. What is your position?
Robert wrote: "Cody wrote: "Is it your position that Paul is communicating how the state *should* function, that he is using irony,..."My response: My position is exactly what the Bible says. What is your posit..."
Interestingly enough, my Calvinist and Arminian friends claim that they believe "exactly what the Bible says." So do my Jehovah's Witness friends. In fact, I also think my position is exactly what the Bible says! And yet, I suspect our positions don't match. ;-)
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My response: I quoted the Bible with no private interpretation or personal commentary ... and I believe exactly what I quoted.
What do you believe?
(I suspect that you have no Scripture that you can quote that clearly state your beliefs, without adding your opinions of what you think they mean.)
Robert wrote: "Cody wrote: "In fact, I also think my position is exactly what the Bible says! And yet, I suspect our positions don't match. ;-) ..."My response: I
quoted the Bible
with
no private interpr..."
Words ALWAYS require interpretation. I believe Romans 13 as heartily as you do, but that doesn't mean it is completely transparent. If it is, then Paul is saying (despite his knowledge to the contrary) that rulers never punish those who do good, only those who do evil. I hold to a high view of scripture, so I would prefer not to impute to Paul a teaching which is patently false on the basis of a naive simplistic reading of the text. In other words, I'd rather do careful, contextual interpretation.
But if you'd like for me to quote a verse without commentary that summarizes well my position, here's a couple:
"The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. And he said to him, 'I will give you all their authority and splendor; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. If you worship me, it will all be yours.'" (Luke 4:5-7)
"Jesus said, 'My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.'" (John 18:36)
Since we're not offering interpretations or doing exegesis, I'll let you guess what I think those verses mean. :-p
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My response: So you don't believe that God has the ability to clearly communicate what He means?
You think He needs your private interpretations in order to get His point across?
I did not think that you had any verses that clearly say God does NOT control all authority.
Luke 4 - Who gave satan this authority?
John 18 - Where does this say that God is NOT in control of all worldly authority?
All human language is imprecise. If you think every statement made in human language has one obvious meaning, you're simply not being realistic and you will likely view your own interpretation as the only possible one. Every statement has one meaning--the speaker/author's intended meaning. Our ability to perceive that meaning depends upon our grasp of the speaker's language, shared assumptions, our charitableness in seeking to understand them correctly, and our knowledge of their context.I'll give you an example. I said that demonic power is "connected" with political power--a fairly straightforward statement as far as statements go. I did not say that God is not sovereign over the world, which is how you understood me.
We seem to share a belief in God's sovereignty as well as an understanding that Satan has authority over the nations of the world, so I'm not sure what you're trying to argue.
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My response: You are forced to rely on your opinion of what you want the Bible to say...
...I rely on direct quotes … with no private interpretation necessary.
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My response: I am not arguing anything. I believe Romans 13:1-4, as well as Luke 4:5-7 and John 18:36...
...the beauty of my faith is I believe exactly what God says without adding to it or taking away from it.
Luke 4 is important to you because you think it invalidates Romans 13... but it does not.
My gosh Robert. The fact that you don’t think reading requires an interpretation says every thing I need to know...
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My response: So you think that God is incapable of clearly saying what He means ?
You think God needs your assistance to clarify His Word?
Says everything I need to know...
The fact that you don’t think God can deal with our limited and human inadequacies and foibles and still communicate truth is beyond me...
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My response: That is YOU who thinks that... NOT ME!
I believe that He wrote exactly what He meant and was more than capable of communicating it without needing your help (or mine).
YOU are the one who thinks He needs YOUR interpretation in order to complete the communication.
My response: So you think that God is incapable of
clearly say..."
I know you’re well aware the Bible wasn’t written in English
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My response: True, so that makes primarily English speaking private interpretations even less reliable than the translations of multiple hundreds of legitimate Bible translation scholars.
I stand upon the fact that God has promised to preserve His Word and has no difficulty with communications.
Because Jesus said stuff like: Luke 1426 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.
Language is sneaky. God is sneaky. Nobody takes this literally. Except maybe Robert.
Robert wrote: "True, so that makes primarily English speaking private interpretations even less reliable "And yet you continue to hold that the English words mean what (you think) they mean as an English speaker, and stubbornly refuse to accept they are translations. (Not to mention the fact that English words can have multiple meanings.) Not only refusing to take original language into consideration, but failing to consider the proper context, both textually and culturally.
What you do is a form of "primarily English speaking private interpretations", you simply refuse to see it. Dogmatically holding to English words as if they are inerrant. Rejecting any consideration, much less actual study, of the underlying language, not to mention culture and actual context. You react as though such a thing were utmost heresy.
Sure, there are some very reliable, faithful, translations out there, but not only do the limitations of language make 100% accuracy impossible, ripping passages out of textural and/or cultural context makes correct understanding unlikely.
Those who hold to the concept that Biblical translations are inerrant are outliers. Reliable Biblical scholars and translators acknowledge there are issues with even the most trustworthy of translations - which is why they come with footnotes. Those who insist upon overlaying their perspective as a 21st century, American, English speaker, are going to make errors.
There's a reason there are Biblical scholars, from whom we may learn much.
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26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot ..."
My response: You think God had an inability to say what He meant???? Kind of a weak God Who does not know how to properly communicate!
Or was He using parts of grammar... like hyperbole?
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My response: NOPE! I continue to hold that the English translations mean what the multiple hundreds of Bible translation scholars say that they mean.
As well as what the definitions of the original language words say they mean. For example:
What Greek word(s) from Romans 13:1-4 do you think mean something different from what the English translations say? Examples please .
Why would it be superior for me to embrace your opinions of what the original language words mean... over these legitimate Bible scholars ?
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My response: I take it literally IN CONTEXT !
Perhaps you should consider taking some grammar classes in Greek or Hebrew.
Robert wrote: "You think God had an inability to say what He meant???? Kind of a weak God Who does not know how to properly communicate!"More like, you think God wrote this, in English ;)
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My response: NOPE! More like I trust the scholars over your opinions.
What Greek word(s) from Romans 13:1-4 do you think mean something different from what the English translations say? Examples please.
To begin with, I'm curious how many folks here have heard in church the idea that political power is connected with demonic power. How many of you have come across it in your Bible reading?
Thanks!