Kenyons Minions discussion
This topic is about
Invision
Chronicles of Nick
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Invision (CoN #7)
Weren't there humans during the Primus Bellum? When (view spoiler) he claimed that he was fighting Angels (Sephirii) and the war was apparently going on for quite some time after she died. Maybe those humans didn't measure time? It also makes me wonder when the Malachai memories will hit him. So far he has only seen brief glimpses of the past Malachais but I have a feeling that Sherri will hit him with it just when he is in control of his powers :P
Maybe they only come to him when they are relevant to his situation, so he doesn't Lose his mind.That seems to be what is happening so far.
That makes sense,because if Charlotte is right he has millions of years of memories of previous Malachais being tortured in Asmodea. It's even possible that he has a front row seat to what his dad did to his mother *shudder*.
Hey, about the inherited memory thing, I was thinking... wether we're talking about Monakribos' essence or soul being passed down, maybe it's not actually the memories of all of his ancestors that each Malachai inherits. Maybe it's just the memories of one: Monakribos . His soul/essence or whatever is trapped inside each Malachai and forced to watch as the curse he put on his bloodline brings endless suffering down on mankind. That would be pretty cool. And might also explain the selective way the memories are accessed and why Nick sometimes hear voices in his head (although there are other explanations for that). I just hope Nick never meets that mean memory goddess who touched Styxx once and tormented him with his brother's life.
what if the malachai inherits the knowledge of his predecessors?
Well, he does, sort of. He can "connect to the nether" (like when he started crying tears of blood while feeling the pain of the whole world) and he has "inherited memories" (the weird visions of the past that relate to what he's doing at the moment).Plus, he's got that grimoire, and he can see the future (kind of). Basically, at full powers, he'd be pretty much omniscient. Though even omniscient characters have really vague, undefined limits to their powers (I'm looking at you two, Savitar and Ash!)
He already has a degree of omniscience. When Mr. Graves (hehe) taught a chemistry class, Nick was able to pull the answer to the question. He also understands Atlantean and the First Language without having studied it (unless it counts as a separate power). We've also seen Caleb and the others ask Nick things that they don't know e.g. in Illusion he asked what happened to Alt!Nick and Nick was able to answer that too. It wouldn't surprise me if he does have a higher degree of omniscience than most though, considering a) how long the Malachai line has existed and b) how many gods of wisdom, fate and knowledge his ancestors have absorbed (powers which he now has by the way). Does the Grimoire still work without (view spoiler)? Or is it like that great book of Evil in the Fever series. I mean, Malachais have been bleeding in it for millennia and we've learnt throughout the series that blood has power. Isn't there a black market where Malachai parts are sold? They are said to be powerful ingredients in dark spells. That had to have had an impact.
"No one ever really mastered the grimoire since it was possessed by an ancient yōkai – a mischievous eastern oracle spirit that had been trapped by his father and tricked into the book. The only way to communicate with her was to offer Nashira a blood sacrifice...The white crow tengu that his father had captured centuries ago and bound to his service against her will..." - About the grimoire and Nashira, from Instinct"I really need a book on this. I miss my grimoire girl." - Nick, about Daeve demon races, from Invision.
I'm pretty sure the Grimoire wasn't actually a book Nick's ancestors wrote in. It was just Nash's prison and all of its useful knowledge was really just Nashira's knowledge. Now that she's out, it's probably a giant liability since generations of Malachai have bled on it, which probably means it can be used in spells or against Nick. And since the only use for the blood was to communicate with Nash, without Nash, it's useless. (Plus I've seen no reference to Nick ever looking through it after Nash had been freed)
I dont know if someone has asked or theorized this yet but Cyperian, we've determined is from the future but what about Laguerre!? Did he come to the past to her, letting her know who is!? If he did, did he lie about her being his mother to use her for his own gain!? Or is she also from the future!?
Aren't present!Laguerre and present!Grim imprisoned in Azmodia? I could have sworn Tiamat banished them there. That would imply that the Laguerre with Cyprian is future!Laguerre. One thing that confuses me is why they are trying to make Nick's life difficult. Murder charges, whilst bad, aren't all that dangerous to him. Maybe he wants to "break" Nick? That whole Cyprian angle threw me completely :P
I don't think they were fully imprisoned--at least, not for very long--since Laguerre appears in Bad Moon Rising. (view spoiler)As for why Cyprian and Laguerre are trying to frame Nick for murder ... "breaking" Nick sounds like a good possibility. And it could be that they're hoping to get Nick in jail, where he can get a power boost (like Adarian did), and then Cyprian can drain his powers. But that's just a guess.
Maybe he's trying to separate Nick from everyone else cause let's face it, his generals wont be able to be in lockup with him (well maybe Caleb) if he's in jail. Kinda like how he got thrown in jail for the rape charges. Only its harder to prove himself innocent when the victims are dead and its known that he had beef with them
Although that theory of the power boast sounds legit too
Hmm I don't think Bad Moon Rising was on the present timeline (i.e. at that point the timeline hasn't "caught up" yet). One theory I have with changing time is that time has a certain inertia (it doesn't "want" to change). For example: Changing it 20 years in the past doesn't automatically change it in the future. There is a delay between the change in the past and the change in the future. That, or they happen in sequence in the future as in the past, like Nick was only starting seeing the changes in Samia and Dev's book.
Nick would already have had his Malachai powers when Polemus (War) attacked him - they wouldn't be locked. From how I understand it, it takes a lot of juice with very specific circumstances to lock it away. For it to still be locked then means that the past hasn't caught up at that point in time.
I don't think Nick would risk going to jail. It is safer for him *and* the world for him to not be there. I'm reasonably certain he'd wipe minds and bash in heads before going back there. The last time he was there was... disturbing. Maybe that is his plan? Make Nick choose to do bad things to not go to jail, therefore corrupting him, or make him go to jail and have a yummy boxed up treat :P
On a completely unrelated note - is his armor black or gold? The CoN books contradict each other on that topic.
I agree with Charlotte that they weren't completely locked away. The way it was explained is that three of the generals are dormant while the three others are contained. Death, War and Pestilence didn't have full access to the world, but they are not things that could be kept completely seperate from it either. Yrre, Xev and Livia were the ones imprisoned. Michael, your theory about the delayed effects of interfering with time... it reminds me of DC's Legends of Tomorrow. At one point, one of the characters, a grown man, starts to have massive organ failure because someone travelled back in time to kill him as a child. They explain that it takes a while for the changes to "solidify" in the timeline, which is why those "aberations in time" only become part of remembered history waay later. People wake up one day and, as far as they're concerned, that's the way things have always been.
On an unrelated note: I just re-read one of my own comments about Nashira and Nick's grimoire. I said that I thought the book was just Nash's prison, so it would probably be pretty useless (and dangerous) to Nick now. But I just realised that ADARIAN is the one that trapped Nash in the book, and yet GENERATIONS of Malachai have bled on it over the years. So there must have been a purpose to the book (and the blood sacrifices) before Nash was trapped in it.
Okay, so I went back to Instinct and did some checking. It turns out, after Nick chose his new generals, Tiamat and Chronus simply told Noir that it was time for him to return to his realm. Noir vanished, dragging Livia with him.Grim then gets in Nick's face about not being selected, and then he snaps his fingers and Grim, Laguerre, Pain, and Suffering all vanish. Where they vanish to, isn't specified.
So ... nope, Tiamat and Chronus did NOT banish Grim and Laguerre to Azmodea.
But anyway, that's a good question, Shari, about whether that's future Laguerre or present Laguerre we're seeing in the final scene. Frankly, I have no idea, now that I think about it.
So it probably had a purpose before Nash got trapped. Maybe he did it to improve the book? Or maybe it was a random act of cruelty, though I don't think so. From what I've seen of Adarian is that though he was cruel, he was actually smarter than most characters we've encountered. To do something that big that could potentially attract Noir's attention probably means that it was important.
Michael wrote: "So it probably had a purpose before Nash got trapped. Maybe he did it to improve the book? Or maybe it was a random act of cruelty, though I don't think so. From what I've seen of Adarian is that t..."Maybe Nashira wasn't the first person to have been imprisoned in the grimoire. Nashira was just, like, Adarian's pick.
Hmm could be, though we need Sherri to confirm or deny :POne thing that's been bugging me is that Acheron said that gods need worship to charge their powers. Nick's new usumgallu has 3 gods (Xev, Dagon, Aeron) and as far as I can tell they don't have any worshipers. Is being in the Usumgallu enough to charge it? In Invision Noir mentioned that they hold a portion of the Malachai's powers inside them. Now we don't know if they can use it directly or even how much they hold, but could that possibly charge their powers?
When Noir said that, I thought it meant that because they are under his command, their power is essentially Nick's power and striking at any of them would weaken the Malachai by association. But that's just my interpretation. Maybe the Malachai surrenders some of his power to them in order to bind them to him. But I don't know. Xev and Dagon are descendants of source gods so I'm guessing they draw power straight from the source. I don't know if they need to be worshipped at all since the entire universe is basically their battery. I don't know much about Aeron. Besides, if the Malachai's power does feed their own, maybe they don't need to be worshipped for that reason either.
It wouldn't surprise me if the Malachai did end up feeding them. I did some math and if we conclude that Monakribos was at least half as strong as Ash (not that far-off imo), and with Carl confirming that there were about 53 generations of Malachai after that, then Nick is 4,503,599,627,370,496 (2 ^ 52) times stronger than Monakribos. Which means that he has power to share :P I think that the reason the Malachai is always in trouble is because it can't always access all that power. It is there if it wants to give it away but actually using it could end up destroying it.This is under the assumption that each generation essentially doubles in power - something that Sherri also semi-confirmed.
Yeah I think these Source Gods either need someone to worship them or someone (with power) to feed off of. I mean Noir was sleep for centuries until Nick's powers were unlocked. If he gets Nick, he doesnt really need to be worshipped. Azura has Jaden so she has someone to feed off of. I'm gonna assume that Dagon, Aeron and Xev are now feeding off Nick's power. Dagon seemed at least a bit strong but when he attacked Nick and tried to take his mom, Nick tapped into his powers and easily whooped him. Ash has the Dark Hunters believing in him like Apollymi has the apollites, daimons and charonte.
I don't think Source Gods operate by the same rules as other gods. Even if they draw power from believers or their servants (which they DO, at least where the Malachai is concerned) I think they also have a reserve of power because they can tap into the Source. They are already über powerful, but because they also feed off other people's power to be even MORE powerful, they get themselves into situations they can't handle out of their own power. Like Noir relying so much on the Malachai that he went comatose when he didn't have him anymore.Also, Michael, I imagine that the Malachai's power increased only very little on average by generation since a bunch of them barely survived long enough to have an heir and die. And Monakribos, contrary to what I assume is most of his descendants, was a Demi-god and his father was a Sephiroth Demi-god too. So I'm thinking he and Adarian were the biggest contributors to the bloodline where power is concerned. Caleb said the only time he got his ass kicked was by Monakribos " who didn't even have a third of Nick's power". I think if the difference was more dramatic, he'd have said a tenth or a "billionth" of something like that.
The Source gods can probably draw power from the Source, but I think it takes a while longer than if they did just have worshipers. In Acheron, Apollymi mentioned that she saved her priestesses so that she could still influence the human realm and stay at full power. On the Malachai issue, I thought the sons were usually more powerful than the father, and after absorbing their fathers they doubled in power. It would explain why people in the books make a big deal on how powerful they are, even though we haven't seen one cut loose. Also, Caleb could be wrong. Sherri's characters are deliberately flawed and he could be underestimating them. Remember, Adarian never used anything close to the bulk of his power when on Earth, he was hiding from the Mavromino.
The heir (as in not all sons, just to clarify) is the only one who can be stronger than the father. But he doesn't need to be more powerful than his father at his peak. He just needs to be stronger than the father that's been weakened by the heir's existence. And then, by killing the elder, he absorbs his power. So the way I see it, it doesn't necessarily double his own. Here's how I picture it: Elder Power level at full strenght: x
Then let's say he's weakened by half.
Elder Power level with an heir : x/2
The heir (y) the only needs to be stronger than his weakened father
x/2 < y
And when the battle is over, the new Malachai (m) gets his father's power at full strenght (x) and his own (y), plus any other power he gets from absorbing other creatures (z)
m = x + y + z
OR
m = x + (y >x/2) + z
Anyway, my point is that I don't see it as being as simple as the power doubling with every generation or growing exponentially, because other variables ( like the randomness of a kid being born a LOT stronger than his father, all the ways for each generation to grow stronger before having an heir and the elder's level of weakness) make it too unpredictable. And everybody would think they were pretty damn powerful regardless of wether it doubles like you think or if it's more like my theory, because at the end of the day, that is still a boatload of power.
Anyway, that's my power growing formula, but until it's cleared up in the books, we don't know how it actually works.
Times like these I want to whine about how long it will be until the next book comes out :P But I think you're probably right. That trillion times seemed a tad absurd. xD
Well, my version isn't perfect either. I mean, I picked "weakened by half" at random just as an example. I figure that varies depending on how old the heir was (so how long the father had been growing weaker) at the time they battle it out. w will be the percentage of power left. m = x + (y > wx) + z
Also, Jeros could have been born with no power of his own and only inherited his father's, (view spoiler)
For that matter , if the Elder Malachai were to die randomly, while he had an heir out there, would his heir automatically inherit his power? Because, unless SK pulls something crazy in future CON books to explain it away, I'm pretty sure that's what happened when Adarian died in the original timeline. In which case, maybe the heir doesn't even need to be as powerful as the weakened elder malachai. He just needs to exist and wait until his father dies so he can inherit. Maybe there were a bunch of Malachai along the bloodline that never fought their fathers and instead just hid until they died.
Also, how do we know who the heir is? I thought it was the one that made the father grow weaker, but Madoc was supposedly eligible until Nick "took up the sword". Or maybe it's that Nick was designated heir, until their father died. Then he could have either accepted the Malachai gig or, like, "abdicated" and let his brother handle it.
There's just so much we don't know.
I don't think the heirs actually wait until their tenth birthday (last chance to inherit their father's power) to kill their parents. The previous generations were hateful at best and dangerously psychotic at worst. Plus, I think I lot the the previous ones were deliberately bred by the mothers to kill the fathers. That's how Adarian said he was conceived. This means that the sons probably absorbed their mother's powers as well, since I doubt they'd let them live.
Yeah I think you're right. I think it was Xev or Zavid that once said about Nick "The Malachai has a mother and he didn't eat her?"
When it comes to how powerful the Malachai is we need to remember that most of them have had children with demons. So they would have had powers and attributes from both parents. Nick, as we know does have powers that other Malachai didn't, he can heal when he shouldn't be able too. So if we think you gain he standard Malachai powers and then the powers that you absorb from the previous Malachai, he's gonna be pretty powerful
I wonder about that. I mean, the Malachai were already on top of the demon food chain at the very beginning. So would breeding with other (obviously weaker) demons actually give them new abilities? Since all other demons are weaker, any power they COULD contribute, the Malachai would already have them since he's more powerful.
I think breeding with other demons gave them more variation in their powers throughout the centuries. I mean, from what we've seen Nick's powers are pretty diverse. Could be that they simply gain new abilities but can use them at Malachai level, since they do absorb their father's powers. Are all other demons weaker? I think Charontes are at least as powerful if not more so, given how most gods and even Thorn react to facing them.
I don't know. Charontes are pretty indestructible NOW, but they would seem that way in a world where the Malachai army was almost completly destroyed, there are very few Atlantean daggers left to kill them, the demon race that can feed off their power (in Invision) is locked up in the Kassitu and Echidna's dragon army has been asleep for centuries (Ash told Simi to not try to fight them, she would fail). They're actually pretty safe NOW. But in the past, they might have been lower on the food chain. And it's not like we know how Nick would do against a Charonte so...Also, Nick kicked Evil-Thorn's ass in Illusion and he's actually one of the only creatures - if not THE only creature - capable of absorbing a Source God's power. So on the badass demon scale, he's hard to beat.
I'd definitely put the Malachai in the top 5 most powerful demons and, if the Primal Source is considered a single entity, I'd put it top 10 most powerful beings in the Universe easy.I think the reason we haven't seen the Malachai at full strength is because Nick is still so very young. Look at how Acheron was easily killed by Apollo, something that wouldn't happen now that he's older and in control. I think Control is the most important aspect of having power. Nick still has next to no control of his power, so he'll still be substantially weaker than Ambrose, who was in full control of his power.
That's a big factor. Here are others that I remember:- The more Nick uses his powers, the more powerful Noir becomes
- Every time he uses his powers, he runs the risk of Noir and Azura managing to tie him to them (with the weird brand in Illusion)
- His power is dark, so the more he uses it, the more it has a grip on him and he risks turning evil
- Some of his powers are not powers he necessarily should learn to use. Some level of necromancy involves raising the dead and enslaving them to fight for him. His premonitions could lead him to make bad decisions because he knows too much about his own future.
- He is a trouble magnet. Literally. As the Malachai, he draws other creatures to him without meaning to, and some of these creatures are not friendly. He can't run around using his powers and risk any of THEM realising who/what he is.
- The cosmic balance of the universe is depending on the Malachai remaining dormant. I think for Nick to be at his full power, he would need to gather his generals and open different hells to create his army. If the Malachai were to do that while Jared was still enslaved, that would totally screw up the balance of the universe.
Michael wrote: "I'd definitely put the Malachai in the top 5 most powerful demons and, if the Primal Source is considered a single entity, I'd put it top 10 most powerful beings in the Universe easy.I think the ..."
Ash also had his powers for a day by the time he is killed. He didn't have time (or the ability) to go to the countryside and learn how to use them. How long does it take Nick to learn to use an ability?
@Myst. Well, so far he has had his powers ~2.5 years and I don't think he has come close to mastering any of them. @Marie. I don't think the balance can be restored anymore. I mean, from what I've seen Jared is pretty much done with the world. Most of the Light-side beings we've seen thus far are like that. The Arelim are working to destroy the world, Cam is interfering with Free Will, Rezar is (for now) chained in the desert.
I'm thinking there will be a new "side" when the war eventually breaks out again. There will be the light, the dark, and those born of both. How many of Nick's allies are like that? Born of both light and dark.
He's creating a supernatural UN. :PBut I think it CAN be restored. I'm pretty sure that's the point of Nick being both light and dark. He's the only Malachai capable of turning against his original purpose to fight for light, which should balance out Jared's act of treason. That's the prophecy anyway. If he chooses darkness, THAT is when the balance unravels, the world goes bye bye and everybody dies.
If he chooses the light, will the balance be restored? I mean, whichever side he joins will essentially be handed a nuclear weapon, so I doubt it would be "fair" to the other side. That's why I think he would create a third side dedicated to balance :P
Well Jared basically detonated a bomb when he killed his people under orders from his natural enemies. From that moment on, the order of things was all screwed. That led to a series of events culminating in a single Malachai growing stronger and stronger over time. Something needs to make up for that. All that destructive power being channeled into something good might qualify.
Also, I think that third balance-oriented side you talked about might already exist : The Source. It created the Source Gods, who all balance each other. And I'm pretty sure Tiamat and Chronus are basically the Source taking form as its two parts: Chaos and Order.
I don't think the Source counts as a person, so it can't really balance anything. It created the Mavromino and the Kallosum gods, yet didn't choose a side or did anything in that war. I think Nick will eventually choose to be balance - from what I've seen is that both sides are jerks. Neither side actually *deserves* to win that war, and I think that is why they essentially stalemated.
It's precisely because it didn't chose a side that I think the Source is by nature balance driven. If it had chosen a side, that would have unbalanced things. It's not a person, but it's like the entire universe. Good, bad, chaos, order. It's the thing that makes the universe go around. Everything that has ever been done to right an imbalance probably originated with it: Chthonians to counter abusive gods, the adanke to counter how demons have grown too powerful, Beth too was made by the Source (though the reason why is debatable). And both sides have to be stalemated. That's the point of balance: to have good and evil in equal amounts. Things have been leaning towards darkness for a while and Nick could push that over the edge (and destroy the world in the process) or he could compensate by leaning towards good. That's how I see it anyway.
Poor Nicky, not only is he the sum of all evil in the universe, he now has to balance the whole thing as well. I still don't think he should join a side (unless it is with balance, i.e. the Primal Source). Whichever side he chooses *will* win. That hardly seemed balanced if he does choose the light.
Well I don't have it all figured out either. I figure that's the part where Cyprian screws with the order of things, so Nick's victory isn't systematic anymore. I just like the world that SK has set up and all the dynamics involved.
I love the foreshadowing too! (view spoiler) It's a little nerve-wracking because I am constantly worried that every thought or statement is some sort of cosmic dare to the Fates.
Same! That's why I was eyeball each sentence and conversation. I LOVE all the winks to the future too!
Marie, when you said "the adanke to counter how demons have grown too powerful." I'm guessing you're talking about Cade, but I don't remember reading that was his purpose. I know that Adanc are extremely powerful and capable of standing toe to toe with the Malachai, but I don't remember reading that's he's a specific balance like the Chthonians are for example.Also I'm pretty sure Charontes ruled the world at one point before being subjugated by the Atlantean Pantheon, so id say they were pretty high on the demon food chain.
Adam wrote: "Marie, when you said "the adanke to counter how demons have grown too powerful." I'm guessing you're talking about Cade, but I don't remember reading that was his purpose. I know that Adanc are ext..."It's in SONO.
(view spoiler)
Of course, that could be pure speculation. He DOES use "it seems". Plus, Thorn has been known to lie.
True Thorn is full of shit lol if I'm wrong I'll own it its just not something I remember and surly it would have been brought up a few times? What's strange is Cade is technically an Arch-Demon (the child of a god and a upper level demon) and its never really mentioned, he's rarely called a demi-god either. Also shouldn't Cade and Thorn be the same species of demon?
I agree that there might be a connection between Bathymaas' creation and Monakribos' death. In fact it really makes me wonder if Set was the main culprit behind the manner in which Monakribos died.
@ Michael: I believe that the timeline spans hundreds of thousands of years (perhaps even millions). In fact, Carl mentioned that the Primus Bellum began in 1000 BRT, as posted here: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
I could be wrong, but I'm thinking that Recorded Time most likely began when the people of Atlantis were created. According to the prologue in Kiss of the Night, Atlantis was around before the Greek pantheon.