A Study in Scarlet: Spoiler Thread #1 *SPOILERS*

[Katy, Old School Classics]

Spoiler Thread. Post away!

[MK]

I *really* enjoyed reading this. It was so interesting to find out the start of the legend.

But there's one really freaky thing about the book. I guess Doyle had a very bad opinion of the founders of Salt Lake City, and the Mormon Church. The story took place in two parts, in London, and in the American West. The crime takes place in London, and the clues lead back to Salt Lake City, where the men involved came from, originally.

So, the book is split in two parts. Book 1, is what you might expect, young Watson and young Holmes meeting up, introduced by a friend, because both are seeking to cut expenses and share rooms with someone. It's very interesting, watching them meet, and watching Watson watch Holmes.

Then in the second part, suddenly you're on a dusty trail, crossing the mountain west, and a man and a young girl are dying of thirst and hunger, being the last of a party of 21, I think it was, who were making their way west (the rest had all died en route). As they get down on their knees to pray, suddenly a great, long caravan, coming from Navoo rises out of the distant horizon, comes across them, and rescues them. The young girl grows up, and then the part where the author went a bit nutty on Mormons crops up. Of course polygamy is mentioned, as it was present in the founding community of the city and the church. But all the very worst things ever ascribed to polgymy are then ascribed to the founders and prophets of the Mormon church. They are actively murdering communities, grabbing the women and girl children, and forcing them into horrific and unwanted marriages, turning them into members of a harem.

And, when the rescued girl grows up, and takes a fancy to a Gentile, well, it's not pretty.

Anyway, then the action shifts back to London, and you see how these seemingly completely unrelated stories are linked. It is quite fascinating, actually.

A good read, with the above caveat. I'm now working on Sherlock Holmes #2 (The Sign of the Four), and bits from this one are mentioned. Just little things, like Watson's journal, the fact that Watson is recuperating from illness/injury sustained in the Afghan campaign. This's and That's.

I do love the stories! Sherlock Holmes has no social graces at all tho :p

[Bob, Short Story Classics]

Thanks MK for the refresher. It’s been a little while since I read this, but I remember thinking it was well written and very entertaining. Since reading it I have come across some history that could help explain Holmes’ apparent abysmal opinion of Mormons. In 1857 a wagon train of settlers was attacked and massacred near Mountain Meadows, Utah. One hundred and twenty men, women, and children were killed. I understand that some seventeen children survived were taken and raised by Mormons. Mormons have always denied responsibility for the attack, but I think most of the news coverage and people’s opinions of the time held them wholly responsible. Holmes was surely educated and intelligent enough to be aware of the catastrophe that occurred 30 years prior to A Study in Scarlet being published. If indeed he was aware of this information, it as well as the stories of polygamy, arranged and forced marriages of young girls, made Mormonism an excellent literary villain.

[MK]

Right! ahh, that's right! I recall reading about that now. Thanks, Bob. And, so true, on the last point!

[MK]

Adding a link to Series Order for Sherlock Holmes Books (9 books, plus a complete one, for the 10th):

https://www.goodreads.com/series/4999...

And a 'table of contents' of sorts to our group threads :):

A Study in Scarlet (Sherlock Holmes #1)
• first impressions thread • spoiler thread

The Sign of Four (Sherlock Holmes #2)
• book thread

The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes (Sherlock Holmes #3)
• book thread

The Memoirs of Sherlock Holmes (Sherlock Holmes #4)
• book thread

The Hound of the Baskervilles (Sherlock Holmes #5)
• book thread

The Return of Sherlock Holmes (Sherlock Holmes #6)
• book thread

The Valley of Fear (Sherlock Holmes #7)
• book thread

His Last Bow (Sherlock Holmes #8)
• book thread

The Case-Book of Sherlock Holmes (Sherlock Holmes #9)
• book thread

The Complete Sherlock Holmes (Sherlock Holmes #1-#9)


----

[Kim]

Right.. This is useful information, actually. I was (and still am really) not really familiar with Mormons and how they live, so I'll have to keep in mind that this is a very negative image of them and not necessarily true of course.

I think I'll look for a bit more nuanced information about them. I can't deny I'm curious now. :)

[Kelly B]

If I remember correctly, didn't Doyle make a trip to the US at some point? I think to promote his books? I'll have to do a little googling:-).

I found a few similar biases in The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes #3. Not against Mormons, but other groups. I suppose it was quite common to be prejudiced at the time, given the English class system.

[MK]

Kim wrote: "Right.. This is useful information, actually. I was (and still am really) not really familiar with Mormons and how they live, so I'll have to keep in mind that this is a very negative image of them..."

Thanks, Kim! I only know enough about the Mormon Church (known as LDS) to know this was a gross villification. I don't know enough about it or their history to give you pointers in the right direction, tho.

However, it is fascinating, I agree. It's been my experience that members of the Church are fairly knowledgeable about the Church's history, though, and love to answer questions, if you ask. I hope I'm not misrepresenting, but one LDS member told me it's part of the teaching of their faith, to teach others about the Church's history and beliefs, particularly if asked.

I do know that a fairly common practice among Mormon youth is to spend a year as a Missionary, serving in other countries. I'm not sure if it's correct to say proselytizing, or giving testimony, but I believe it's generally to increase membership in the LDS Church.

(Apologies to any LDS members if I got it wrong/misrepresented!)

[MK]

Kelly wrote: "If I remember correctly, didn't Doyle make a trip to the US at some point? I think to promote his books? I'll have to do a little googling:-).
..."

I'm not sure, but that is interesting! I can't google right now, but I'll be back later to see what you got :D.

heh ~

[Kelly B]

Doyle did visit the US on tour, including Utah:-).

He also believed in spiritualism and fairies, which apparently caused a bit of controversy back in the day.

[MK]

Kelly wrote: "Doyle did visit the US on tour, including Utah:-).

He also believed in spiritualism and fairies, which apparently caused a bit of controversy back in the day."

Interesting! I wonder if it was to do research FOR the book, or following up on feedback once he'd already published?

[Kim]

I just finished the book and yep, it was quite surprising how the two stories became one. Or at least I didn't figure it out!
I knew about the pills from the modern tv series, so when the disappearances of the Mormons who had done something wrong were mentioned, I totally saw that group of Avenging (?) Angels handing the pills to the "bad Mormons" and giving them a choice, which was really God's choice... But yeah that totally wouldn't have solved the crimes in London. I'm not a very good detective, I suppose.

This line made me chuckle!
"... and will serve as a lesson to all foreigners that they will do wisely to settle their feuds at home, and not carry them on to British soil."

Anyway, I enjoyed it! :)

[MK]

"... and will serve as a lesson to all foreigners that they will do wisely to settle their feuds at home, and not carry them on to British soil."


^^^^^ That line made me laugh too, I remember it! :D

I also didn't figure it out. And had to listen to Watson explaining Holmes explain it most of the time :p.

Poor doggie, tho (the pills)! :(

[Kim]

MK wrote: ""... and will serve as a lesson to all foreigners that they will do wisely to settle their feuds at home, and not carry them on to British soil."


^^^^^ That line made me laugh too, I remember it!..."

Yes, I was wondering about the dog actually. Did it say somewhere that he was dying anyway? Or did Sherlock just use it as a test? Because it was Watson's dog and he didn't even protest or say anything about the dog. A bit strange.

[MK]

Kim wrote: "Yes, I was wondering about the dog actually. Did it say somewhere that he was dying anyway? Or did Sherlock just use it as a test? Because it was Watson's dog and he didn't even protest or say anything about the dog. A bit strange. "

I don't think he was Watson's dog, but I do remember them saying he was a dog near the end of life. Not sure now where they got it from! Watson had just returned from overseas service with an injury, so I don't think he had an animal companion.

[Kim]

MK wrote: "Kim wrote: "Yes, I was wondering about the dog actually. Did it say somewhere that he was dying anyway? Or did Sherlock just use it as a test? Because it was Watson's dog and he didn't even protest..."

Oh, oops! I must have dreamed that, haha! :D I really thought he was!

[Melanti]

When Watson moves in he says that he has a ' bull pup' but no further mention is made of it. The dog they killed was the land lady's terrier that was elderly and in very poor health. She'd asked Watson to put it down for her.

[Kim]

Melanti wrote: "When Watson moves in he says that he has a ' bull pup' but no further mention is made of it. The dog they killed was the land lady's terrier that was elderly and in very poor health. She'd asked ..."

Ah, thank you for clearing that up. I got the dogs mixed up. :P

[MK]

ooo, very good, Melanti! ty :)

Kim, you did better than I, I didn't even notice Watson had a dog in the first place :p

[Melanti]

Kim wrote: "Ah, thank you for clearing that up. I got the dogs mixed up. :P ..."

I'd assumed it was Watson's dog at first too! The only reason I caught it was because I thought it was weird that the landlady had asked Watson to put down his own dog. So I re-read the paragraph a couple of times before I realized that the "terrier" part sounded odd too, then flipped back to where the pup was mentioned to verify my memory.

[Kim]

MK wrote: "ooo, very good, Melanti! ty :)

Kim, you did better than I, I didn't even notice Watson had a dog in the first place :p"

Pff, it's not our fault! Doyle shouldn't bring dogs in the house and then not take care of them and never mention them again. That's just asking for confusion. :P

[MK]

ha! lol I love it, Kim :D

[Sweta]

In "The Study of Scarlet," Sherlock Holmes follows the old lady in the cab and when the cab finally stops, there is only the cab driver inside. How does this happen?

The cab driver in the end confesses that his accomplice is the old lady. But how is there only one person inside the cab because there should have been the cab driver and the accomplice. I felt the book did not explain this part.

[Melanti]

I assumed she jumped out at some point when the driver signaled that it was safe to do so.

[Melanti]

That hadn't occurred to me but it sounds very reasonable as well.

[Lynn]

A Study in Scarlet by Arthur Conan Doyle is the Revisit the Shelf Group read for March 2021. I hope you enjoy the book!

[Janice]

This will be my second Sherlock Holmes book with the first being The Hound of the Baskervilles, which I really enjoyed. I have had to order it from my library so hopefully, I won't have to wait too long for it.

[George P.]

I have just finished listening to an audiobook of A Study in Scarlet- I spread out my listening over about three weeks. The only work of Doyle's I have read before was a story titled "The Valley of Fear", which did not have Sherlock Holmes in it and was published about 25 years after this one. It had a similar structure with a second part that was set in the American West, in a fictional mining town. Apparently Doyle believed his British readers would find the American West an exotic setting.
I did enjoy the setting of the later part (but actually the back-story) of A Study in Scarlet in the western U. S. because it was mostly in Salt Lake City, where I live and have lived most of my life. It made me laugh to have Doyle describe the area east of here that the Mormons were traveling through as a silent, lifeless desert. The people in Grand Junction Colorado and Vernal and Park City Utah would certainly not agree- there are many birds, mule deer, coyotes and would have been quite a few bears back then. For one accustomed to the English countryside it would seem bleak though.
I have recently watched some of the TV episodes of "Sherlock" [on Netflix] with Benedict Cumberbatch, including the first episode, "A Study in Pink" which is partly derived from this story, but with a lot of changes. The first meeting of Holmes and Watson is straight out of this story however.

[Natalie]

George - I am also from Utah and the descriptions are hilarious. 😂 I also love, love, love the BBC Sherlock.

I’ve read this book twice in the past but decided to go with the audio this time around. I just started tonight and it’s fantastic so far.

Has anyone read a really great bio on Sir Arthur Conan Doyle? I’d like to learn more about his life and how he came to hate Sherlock so much. Lol.

Besides Sherlock, the only book of Doyle’s I’ve read is The Lost World which I loved and found hilarious.

[Lynn]

For those who are asking about other Doyle books to read, The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes is a collection of short stories. I "read" them on Lit2Go as audiobooks while commuting. The length was the perfect length to fit my commute. Some of the individual stories, I had already read or seen on television Sherlock Holmes series. It is on our bookshelf and would work for Bingo as a short story collection. I really liked them.

[Ian]

George P. wrote: "I have just finished listening to an audiobook of A Study in Scarlet- I spread out my listening over about three weeks. The only work of Doyle's I have read before was a story titled "The Valley of Fear", which did not have Sherlock Holmes in it and was published about 25 years after this one...."

Just in case anyone gets derailed, Sherlock Holmes is very much present in Part One of "The Valley of Fear," the second part of which, the back-story to the first part, is again set in the US, but in the eastern coalfields -- probably Pennsylvania, but I no longer remember whether Doyle supplied his British readers with that much "extraneous" information. It was the last of the four Sherlock Holmes novels.

I've never been sure -- a real Sherlockian might know -- whether Doyle got his western landscapes in "Scarlet" from the lingering influence of the "Great American Desert" literature of the earlier nineteenth-century (the "stay home" opposite of the "Go west, young man..." advice of Horace Greeley). Or, instead from accounts emphasizing the travails of the Mormon settlers. Or, again, made up details as he went along, not realizing he would soon have a transatlantic readership.

[Tara]

Natalie wrote: "George - I am also from Utah and the descriptions are hilarious. 😂 I also love, love, love the BBC Sherlock.

I’ve read this book twice in the past but decided to go with the audio this time around..."

I've also read and enjoyed The Lost World. If you are interested, there are other Professor Challenger books he wrote. A few biographies written by well-known authors in their own right, which seem to be high regarded include The Life of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle by John Dickson Carr and The Private Life of Sherlock Holmes by Vincent Starrett.

[[deleted user]]

I completed A Study in Scarlet tonight. It's fun to read about the beginnings of Holmes and Watson's friendship. These characters work well together, I think Doyle crafted them perfectly to complement each other.

I love a mystery that involves events that happened in the past - sort of an old sins cast long shadows plot. This story fits in that category, and I liked the way Doyle built up the intense need for revenge that grew year after year in Jefferson Hope. Hope was single-minded and not to be deterred from avenging his true love and her father - traveling around the world to accomplish it! The way Holmes' mind works to solve this case is interesting - working backwards rather than forwards.

I was not happy about the poor terrier that lost his life in Holmes' demonstration of the pills - I understand the dog was near the end of his life, but it's sad he died to prove Holmes' point, with no one there to pet him or hold him as he passed away. Minor point but I'm a dog lover, so that part made me angry.

Regarding adaptations, my favorite Holmes is Basil Rathbone, hands down - but I did enjoy very much the Robert Downey Jr Holmes movies. There was a Holmes television series - maybe in the '80s, maybe the actor was Jeremy something - I never could warm up to that series.

Overall an entertaining mystery, I think there's little things to pick up on with each re-read.

Favorite character - Dr Watson
Favorite scene - the sudden and unexpected handcuffing of Hope, and Holmes announces that the mystery is solved - when no one else knows how
Favorite quote - "Depend upon it there comes a time when for every addition of knowledge you forget something that you knew before."

[George P.]

Ian wrote: Just in case anyone gets derailed, Sherlock Holmes is very much present in Part One of "The Valley of Fear," the second part of which, the back-story to the first part, is again set in the US, but in the eastern coalfields --..."

Your corrections to what I wrote jogged my memory and I agree you are correct. It had been some time since I read it and I wrote my note late in the evening while tired. The Valley of Fear did have a very similar two-part "backstory" structure to A Study in Scarlet however.

[Natalie]

Thank you for those suggestion Tara! I’m going to look into those.

I’ve always meant to go on and read the rest of Professor Challenger. After finishing Study in Scarlet I’d like to reread the rest of Sherlock Holmes and then maybe I’ll go on to Professor Challenger. This could be the “year of Doyle.” 😄

[Natalie]

Cozy Pug - I’ve never really watched any older Sherlock Holmes stories so I’m not familiar with the ones you’ve mentioned but that could be something fun to look into.

I like the Robert Downey Jr movies and find the characters amusing, but the plots confuse me a bit. 😅

My favorite is definitely Benedict Cumberbatch. 💜 I also really enjoyed Elementary, but I’m a big fan of procedurals so that was right up my alley. More recently, I absolutely LOVED Enola Holmes on Netflix. That is actually one of the few cases where I liked the movie more than the book. Lol.

I’ve always loved a good literary Holmes pastiche and that’s where my true love of Sherlock has always been. From reading the originals to reading a bunch of imagined iterations. The Mary Russell series is one of my faves. I recently tried reading The Daughter of Sherlock Holmes and it was atrocious. I had to DNF.

[[deleted user]]

Natalie wrote: "Cozy Pug - I’ve never really watched any older Sherlock Holmes stories so I’m not familiar with the ones you’ve mentioned but that could be something fun to look into.

I like the Robert Downey Jr ..."

I don't know how true to the stories the Basil Rathbone movies are, I just really enjoy how he plays Holmes. I love old movies, and don't really watch current movies. I made an exception for RDJr's Holmes movies because it was Holmes - I thought he and Jude Law were a good pair for Holmes and Watson. I was surprised how much I enjoyed them. I wasn't interested in the Benedict Cumberbatch series at all. When a fictional character is removed from their original era, that kills it for me. It's been popular though, so there's something appealing about it apparently.

I've not read all the Sherlock Holmes books/stories but I'll get to them eventually. I do have the first book in the Mary Russell series on my Amazon list, undecided about it still.

[Jen]

I believe there is a version of this called The Study in Emerald by Neil Gaiman. It is AMAZING when compared to the original. Has anyone here read it?

[Janelle]

Yes I’ve read it, it’s available on neil gaiman’s website here

https://www.neilgaiman.com/mediafiles...

It’s a mixture of holmes and Cthulhu(lovecraft)

[ClaraBelle]

Jen wrote: "I believe there is a version of this called The Study in Emerald by Neil Gaiman. It is AMAZING when compared to the original. Has anyone here read it?"

No I’ve never heard of it but I’d love to read it as I loved the original!

[Tara]

Cozy_Pug wrote: "Natalie wrote: "Cozy Pug - I’ve never really watched any older Sherlock Holmes stories so I’m not familiar with the ones you’ve mentioned but that could be something fun to look into.

I like the R..."

Considering a lot of the Rathbone movies had WWII settings, they were certainly not true to the originals, but I agree he's a great Holmes. Nigel Bruce, not so much as Watson....

[[deleted user]]

Tara wrote: "Cozy_Pug wrote: "Natalie wrote: "Cozy Pug - I’ve never really watched any older Sherlock Holmes stories so I’m not familiar with the ones you’ve mentioned but that could be something fun to look in..."

Good point, I forgot about the WWII settings lol

[Natalie]

Jen- I literally just heard of that this morning when one of my friends posted about the graphic novel. And I was thinking “how have I never heard of this?!” Thanks for posting the link!

[Natalie]

Finished listening yesterday. It was so much fun! The narrator made those sinister Mormons even more dramatic. Lol.

Here is a fun article that talks about Doyle and the Latter-Day Saints.

I'm excited to continue on rereading the series.

[Ian]

Cozy_Pug wrote: "There was a Holmes television series - maybe in the '80s, maybe the actor was Jeremy something - I never could warm up to that series...."

The actor was Jeremy Brett, on whom see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_...

The four seasons (41 episodes ) of the (British) Granada TV versions, produced 1984-1994, came to an end due to Brett's declining health and death (1995).

In another thread here, a few months ago, it was highly praised for its general closeness to the stories as written by Doyle. For some of us, it was the definitive Sherlock Holmes. (Including some of Brett's invented mannerisms, such as a distinctive laugh, which it is almost a surprise to find was NOT mentioned by Doyle.)

And a landmark Watson, for once played as highly intelligent, the better to set off Holmes' brilliance, although he was played by two different actors (David Burke, series 1, and Edward Hardwicke, 3-4) over the ten-year span of production.

For the Granada productions, which had different titles in different seasons, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherloc....

As Wikipedia notes, it included 42 of the 60 stories by Doyle (one episode combined two stories). It is probably the most extensive visual treatment of the Holmes "canon." (There have been more complete audio productions, including a BBC 4 radio series, with which I am unfamiliar.)

[[deleted user]]

Ian wrote: "Cozy_Pug wrote: "There was a Holmes television series - maybe in the '80s, maybe the actor was Jeremy something - I never could warm up to that series...."

The actor was Jeremy Brett, on whom see ..."

Thank you for that information! I forgot to look it up after I posted.

I've only ever seen a few of the episodes, just didn't care for it and never gave it another chance. I can see though how the authenticity would be appealing to Holmes fans. I think I'm probably not enough of a Holmes fan to truly appreciate that series - I'm a die hard Poirot fan :)

[Terry]

When I was a child in the 1950s and early 60s, I used to watch the old Sherlock Holmes black and white movies on television, which were quite entertaining. You don’t see those on any more. I would think that Turner Classic Movies might play them from time to time, but I have not observed that they do.

[[deleted user]]

Terry wrote: "When I was a child in the 1950s and early 60s, I used to watch the old Sherlock Holmes black and white movies on television, which were quite entertaining. You don’t see those on any more. I would ..."

Those might be the ones I was talking about with Basil Rathbone and Nigel Bruce. TCM is where I watched them, but that's been over 10 years ago.

[Ian]

The fourteen black-and-white Basil Rathbone (Holmes) / Nigel Bruce (Watson) films appeared between 1939 and 1946, from two studios, on which see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherloc...
and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basil_R...

The role of Holmes was a break from Rathbone's usual movie appearances as Leading Villain or in character roles.

According to Wikipedia, four of the films fell out of copyright, due to failure to renew, and were later colorized (not always a good idea). Some of the rest were in terrible condition, and had to be restored (again see Wikipedia). But they should all be available, at least in theory.

Some feel that the later twelve films, set in "contemporary" (i.e., World War II) settings, have not worn well. And Nigel Bruce's elderly, and rather dim, Dr. Watson, was a real departure from the original -- although the actor worked well with Rathbone, and the characterization was quite entertaining in itself.

[Natalie]

Thanks for that information Ian!