Clockwork Prince
discussion
That is not Jem on the cover
Andre wrote: "Alexander wrote: "guys, I just checked in he Shadowhunters wikia and is Jem in the cover.http://shadowhunters.wikia.com/wiki/C..."
Do I really have to elaborate as to why the wikia is..."
And I do apologize for sounding rude. As I read this discussion I was in an irritable mood.
Jeni wrote: "Cover art is never what I expect from what I read. Even when it's just a landscape, the book may have given me a different idea and I can't reconcile the two. Just my two cents."
I agree. Cover art can be inaccurate too.
But should it be inaccurate?And when it is, should the makers get credit for it?
Because both is what happened here.
Plus, with how much the books praise Will's looks, and how often, is it really inconceivable that Clare either consciously or unconsciously chose a model that looks like Will?
Andre wrote: "But should it be inaccurate?And when it is, should the makers get credit for it?
Because both is what happened here.
Plus, with how much the books praise Will's looks, and how often, is it really..."
That is the one question for whoever chooses the cover art should be asked.
No, it has nothing to do with the people who do the cover art. Since praising something has no value when the people making such things do it, the praise comes from others.And especially the last question has nothing to do with them.
I just give up answering any of your questions because it seems whatever I answer is completely different than what you want someone to say. WHoever chooses the cover art (the author in some cases) HAS the choice on to say whether it is inaccurate and not what they imagined and wrote the character to look like. I will write more later
Okay if the author likes the cover and the fans praise it, what is the problem? If is just a cover and even if it is inacurrate who cares? If it doesnt match the characters description why are you making such a big fuss about it and trying to get the answer you want by looking way to deeply into this. ITS JUST A COVER FOR CRY IN OUT LOUD WHAT MATTERS THE MOST IS THE STORY ITSELF!
But Clare picked the model herself, don't you think she would have been a bit more selective in that case? Most authors aren't fortunate to get to pick the cover for their books and have to deal with what they're given. In this case Clare didn't take advantage of her opportunity to have a say in her cover art and instead picked someone who doesn't really look like Jem.
@MaddyI am going to be honest. I think, you don't want to answer my question, that's why you keep evading them. And trust me, you do not want to get into a conversation with me about the story of TID, especially not how Clare treats Jem in it.
@Jade
That is the second main problem here. Based on her own claims, granted I wouldn't put too much stock in them after she quickly jumped ship when the movie didn't turn out so well, she had a say in it. She could reject early drafts of the cover and she had the possibility to pick the model and despite viewing allegedly dozens of models (or maybe hundreds), she picked someone who looks so much like Will? I mean she was in California for crying out loud, would anyone really claim you wouldn't find a Chinese-Anglo mix of the right proportions or at least photoshop the cover accordingly to make hair and skin tone fit? That is why I think she picked a model that looks like Will because she is obsessed with Will's and Jace's types. And not just here, pretty much everyone of the guys Magnus fancied throughout the Bane Chronicles looks either like Will, Jace or a combination of the two.
What makes you say that you think I'm avoiding your question? I never avoid anyones questions. I answer them how I want to answer them and what my thoughts are on the particular subject. Maybe I am answering in a diffetent way than you would answer questions or how you would like your questions to be answered.Assuming that I am trying to avoid your questions is not even close to what is happening here at all.
Then let me end this here and leave the discussion. I am not trying to evade your questions. I might have answered them differently, but I did not evade them. I hope you have a nice day and happily discuss TDI with fellow readers. Goodbye.
Maddy wrote: "Then let me end this here and leave the discussion. I am not trying to evade your questions. I might have answered them differently, but I did not evade them. I hope you have a nice day and happily..."Well if you say so....
It is quite obvious that Cassandra Clare likes to say A for one time and B for a different time on an exactly the same topic. Only fans who refuse to acknowledge this will say otherwise. Jem on the cover is rather different with Jem in the story itself and that is pathetic because Ms Clare was given the right to choose the model. She probably chose the cover to satisfy her fans' eyes and ignored the Jem she wrote in the story. She just had to stress it out to the fans at some TMI's websites that it is Jem on the cover. How convenient.
She did this to the movie too. Before the premiere, she said that she was excited and happy about the cast (to her they are the perfect actors/actresses for the characters) and what the movie production has been doing with her book. After the movie sank on the box office she claimed to have no say for the movie and she can only be questioned for her book only and never the movie. How funny and pathetic.
Nurlely wrote: "It is quite obvious that Cassandra Clare likes to say A for one time and B for a different time on an exactly the same topic. Only fans who refuse to acknowledge this will say otherwise."Well, Nurlely, you really did say it all.
Yep, Nurlely, you surely did.
@ Mizuki @ AndreI love Jace still, but it doesn't mean that I am not disturbed by the annoying facts in TMI and TID.
I mean seriously. Jace died, resurrected, sort-of-died and cleansed. Geesh. And what about Sebastian? An antithesis character of the stunning Jace? Ms Clare only needed him to be Jace's opposite and created Sebastian just that way. Stunning and evil versus stunning and angelic, died and resurrected.
Jem is the weirdest of all. I think Ms Clare wrote him to be the champion of The Infernal Devices. Unfortunately, during the reading, more readers love Will than Jem. It would be a million dollars lost to kill Will in order for Jem to get Tessa. So Ms Clare set the most ridiculous plot ever. Long-sick-and-dying-shadowhunter Jem into an immortal silent brother Jem into a normal healthy shadowhunter Jem. Will met his demise in a very decent way and Jem gets Tessa. All fans are happy! LOL.
I am yes a fool for loving Jace Wayland (surely not the movie Jace) but I can say that TMI and TID are not the series I will recommend for others to read (unless they can keep their reading to TMI 1 - 3 only)
Nurely, I agree! I can't imagine how Clare did the casting for the movie. None of the actors really fit the charcters except for maybe Simon.
Ninjainpajamas wrote: "Nurely, I agree! I can't imagine how Clare did the casting for the movie. None of the actors really fit the charcters except for maybe Simon."Yep... that's true. Jace is... OMG. Can't even say it. And Valentine is so ridiculous.
Ninjainpajamas wrote: "Nurely, I agree! I can't imagine how Clare did the casting for the movie. None of the actors really fit the charcters except for maybe Simon."She didn't do the casting, but prior to the movie bombing she always claimed to be strongly involved and the characters all fitting and perfect, it's not that they aren't good actors its just that they played terrible roles. Actually she seemed so enarmored with Godfrey Gao (the guy playing Magnus) that she changed Magnus's second description in the CoB movie tie-in edition, albeit she still didn't fix Raphael's changing skin, age and Magnus's white hands, plus there is the whole issue that Gao is probably a full blood Chinese while Magnus allegedly represents a first generation Dutch/Indonesian mix, so Clare basically swept all people of East and Southeast Asia under the Chinese brush.
Now as for Jem: If Clare really wanted to make him the champion of TID, she did a terrible job. She constantly has Tessa being wet between her legs for Will, has Jem basically be the comfort and rebound guy, the unlikely love interest, the weak guy that looks like a ghost and despite his traumatic childhood seems to have no mental issues at all. Seriously, the only thing troubling him seems to be his drug and Tessa, its almost as if his parents never existed. And as for him being "Chinese"... well the more I learn of Shanghai at the time the less I belief that Jem would be like anyone from that time and place.
If you ask me, Jem should have dumped Tessa in Clockwork Princess and live his own life, like Alec should with Magnus.
What I found really odd was that she constantly describes Isabelle as tall with long legs and Clary as short whereas in the movie, it's pretty much the opposite...I know it's not really a big deal but it sort of ruined the authenticity of the characters...What's even more ironic is that the same thing happened with Tris and Christina in Divergent!
I don't know Divergent, but let me guess, the main character is taller than the supporting character in the film version?
Yes. Same thing with the Weasley twins and Ron in Harry Potter.
Well the main character apparently can't be smaller than the support.
Just comparing actual character descriptions with movie actors. No one said the main character can't be short...
But that seems to be the direction they are going. After all Lilly Collins isn't exactly tall. And Alec should be taller than Jace also. Coincidence?
@NinjainpajamasYep... Tris should be average and Christina is taller but I can't say that I am unhappy with the casting because Ms Roth did not make their appearances as the most important part in her book as Clary and Isabelle are on TMI. Isabelle is the girl so gorgeous that her opposite sex will immediately look at her once she enters a room.
In TMI, Jace is described as a stunningly gorgeous, slim and wit. No offence to JCB but he was awful as Jace.
I will appreciate Ms Clare more if she stayed true to defending the movie but she was too coward and said otherwise.
@AndreAgree with u about Lily is not that tall. Although she is more beautiful than Clary should be. But I don't really mind Lily playing Clary. Isabelle and Alec are not what they should be. They should be both gorgeous, young and slim and much taller than Clary. Alec in the movie is old and does not look like someone I will have my eyes stared at.
Actually the actor playing Alec was only 28, but for some reason he looked much older, very tired actually. But either way he didn't look much like Alec anyway. And Magnus... well he has similar skin tone and face to CoB, while in CoA he suddenly looks several years younger.Also the whole staring at Alec is odd since in the last TBC apparently Alec is so good looking that an acting agent comes along and gives him her card. And when you are that good looking are we really supposed to belief Alec doesn't know that and no one ever tried to hit on him? Because that is what the rest of the books suggest. It's almost as if Clare must have him be a total blank page relationship wise.
And the whole Alec X Jace thing remembers me of this from "The Sporkings of Das Mervin" about chapter 15 from City of Ashes (when Jace is in the cage):
Alec, why are you in love with this creep? You’re going out of your way to help him, despite the risks involved, and he’s not taking you seriously. He never takes you seriously. Look, I know that Shadowhunter society is homophobic, but there are a lot of guys out there, aside from Magnus Bane. Boys your own age who actually are gay or bisexual, and who are nice and respectful. Why are you wasting your time with this complete ingrate?
The last sentence could apply to Jem and Will as well, despite everything the books have thrown at us, I still don't understand why these two are parabatai. No one in his right mind would agree to such a binding of two kids like that. Not that they are equal or anything, I think the bonding ceremony alone shows that Jem is the subordinate part.
Michelle wrote: "Andre wrote: "No, he isn't. He is what Americans would call a Hapa. "
I am American and have never heard the term Hapa. What is that???"
I'm glad someone else asked that. I'm American and I've never heard of Hapa.
I am American and have never heard the term Hapa. What is that???"
I'm glad someone else asked that. I'm American and I've never heard of Hapa.
@ AndreAnd Jem is a very sick boy. He should not be anyone parabatai.
Patrisha wrote: "Michelle wrote: "I'm glad someone else asked that. I'm American and I've never heard of Hapa. "Like I wrote, it seems to be specific to Hawaii and California, with different definitions in each state. Sadly each time the definition seems pretty generic without any actual limits. I mean there is a good chance that some centuries ago there was a mongol among my ancestors. So would that make me a hapa? And interestingly Bruce Lee seems to be constantly ignored in the category.
Nurlely wrote: "And Jem is a very sick boy. He should not be anyone parabatai."
He shouldn't be in London period. I never understood that. Allegedly at age 11-12 they told him he probably wouldn't live past 15, put they send him to dirty London instead of Idris just because his father was "British"? Where there no relatives? And would Idris be better to find possible cures for him? With all those Shadowhunters from around the world and better air and everything?
And why let these two be parabatai? Even if you, for some reason, have the rule that past 18 the bond is no longer possible, wouldn't you think that any society, especially with such an allegedly high mortality rate, would have some rules and tests for this? Children and teenagers aren't exactly known for making smart choices, no matter what culture.
Andre wrote: "Like I wrote, it seems to be specific to Hawaii and California, with different definitions in each state. Sadly each time the definition seems pretty generic without any actual limits. I mean there is a good chance that some centuries ago there was a mongol among my ancestors. So would that make me a hapa? And interestingly Bruce Lee seems to be constantly ignored in the category."
I'm from California and I've never heard of that. I had actually did Google search on hapa because I was curious of the definition. Thank you for replying and helping me understand what hapa means.
I'm from California and I've never heard of that. I had actually did Google search on hapa because I was curious of the definition. Thank you for replying and helping me understand what hapa means.
Patrisha wrote: "I'm from California and I've never heard of that. I had actually did Google search on hapa because I was curious of the definition. Thank you for replying and helping me understand what hapa means. "Well it is a big state and I guess it would be pretty unlikely that all residents know all the words.
But to get back to the topic character, technically Jem is a British/Chinese according to Clare's books, albeit regarding at least some of her statements and the way he is presented in the books, I personally think he is supposed to represent a "Chinese" person. I put that word in quotes since in my eyes he is nothing like that. He seems to be a 21st century Anglo-American with a bunch of Chinese stereotypes glued to him. He is about as authentic as Cher's and Michael Jackson's faces.
Andre wrote: "Well it is a big state and I guess it would be pretty unlikely that all residents know all the words. "
That is true. btw, I wasn't trying to be sacastic or rude when I said thank you. I do mean it thank you for telling me the meaning of the word. :)
That is true. btw, I wasn't trying to be sacastic or rude when I said thank you. I do mean it thank you for telling me the meaning of the word. :)
I didn't take it as sarcasm, so no worry.Just one more thing: In my experience it will never take long until someone comes along who would tell you something completely different, especially on the Internet. ;)
Andre wrote: "I didn't take it as sarcasm, so no worry.
Just one more thing: In my experience it will never take long until someone comes along who would tell you something completely different, especially on th..."
I have come aross that already. :)
Just one more thing: In my experience it will never take long until someone comes along who would tell you something completely different, especially on th..."
I have come aross that already. :)
Tell me about it. :D
Till I saw this on a discussion I had never even questioned that this was Will on the cover. I mean seriously he looks just like Will was described, dark hair, sharp face, I mean it just all fits. I never even thought of Jem. The comments on here are pretty confusing. Is Jem black or Asian? It never said his parent were Chinese just because he grew up in Shanghai doesn't make him Chinese.
That "growing up" (not really he left Shanghai at age 11) in Shanghai doesn't mean you are Chinese is very true if you know even a few things about Shanghai. At the time there were already at least 2 Shanghai's. The about 700 years-old walled city and the imperial concessions, consisting of British, French and American concessions, each with their own architectural style and to some degree rules (of course there was also the colonizer and colonized dichotomy). Due to the Taipeng rebellion a more mixed Shanghai became reality so at the time Jem lived there it would have been that way that he in theory could have lived anywhere. Mark, in a realistic setting. What Clare said about Shanghai so far is so generic that it could fit any place. Actually so far I have read up to 10% into Clockwork Princes and despite two TID books finished so far, I do not even know the names of Jem's parents. I have no idea where in Shanghai he lived and I do not understand why he only speaks Mandarin and "British English" since living in Shanghai you surely would have gotten along in both languages but it would have been far better if you had spoken Shanghainese at the time, which btw. is a subset of Cantonese and thereby a different language than Mandarin. And why Jem's Mandarin is still allegedly perfect is a mystery to me as well (not that it ever made any sense to me why and when he used it). From age 11 to 17, trust me, more than enough time to pretty much forget your native tongue, happened over here in Germany with some of the Vietnamese refugees who fled as kids and alone, I remember the case of an 11 year old boy who when he saw his parents again after 4 years didn't speak one word Vietnamese anymore and needed a translator.Now Jem is not black. I think that was just a troll who claimed that.
Jem is technically, well according to Clare, the son of a Chinese woman and British man, albeit she also says that Shadowhunters are Shadowhunters first and everything else second, so saying Jem is half British and half Chinese is also kind of wrong. But anyway, the way she described him at his first appearance in Clockwork Angel does indeed suggest a very European looking person, perhaps someone like these actors:
http://www.teenidols4you.com/blink/Ac...
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-fJhDOv2xDhQ...
Either way she refers to him as "Chinese" despite him not even seeming authentic Chinese to begin with, like fellow goodreader said: As to Jem's Chinese sentences in the series, they look to me like they're given from some American Born Chinese (ABC) who doesn't know a damn thing about Chinese history and customs. (e.g. when Jem said to Tessa in Mandarin that she is beautiful... yeah, to a Chinese of the time and I think even today that would probably have been equivalent to when we would say "you look nice", nothing special). Also his belief in reincarnation seems at odds with the Christian background of the Shadowhunters and for an actual Chinese in Jem's position Kwan Yin (whom Clare wrongly referred to as a goddess) would probably play a bigger role than just decoration on his box of demon powder. There is a lot more and basically what we see of Jem fits a "positive" Chinese stereotype (meaning it's not so obviously insulting), but this post will be long enough anyway so maybe later more.
Now as for Jem's looks and the looks of the cover model:
Like I said in CA his first description suggested a very European looking person, albeit Clare didn't describe it consistently there as well. Tessa had to be told of his "foreign" roots, so how different than average British people (apart from his hair) could he have looked? At the same time she lets Tessa name only his eye and hair color as differences to the New York Chinese she saw, which is reaaaaallllllyyyyy odd, to say the least. Also in Clockwork Angel she lets Jem state that his "Chinese" name is "Jian." A name that can open a whole can of worms, but like I said, maybe later. However this name is used exactly once in the entirety of TID and if Shadowhunters are Shadowhunters first, why do they call him Jem and James? Why not Jian? How much different from John or Jean could that name sound in English? Had she used that name I think it would have stuck better that Jem is supposed to be "Chinese," especially since we know so little about his background, we do not even know whether he has any relatives left or why he is in London and not Idris with his condition (the given "explanation" was because his father was "British" but I don't consider that a legitimate reason).
But back to his looks, in Clockwork Prince Clare seemed to want to hammer it into readers heads even more that he is "foreign," letting Tessa worry that people might stop and stare at Jem due to the cast of his facial features (as if Londoners from that time had never seen a foreigner) and stating that there was a woman at the Council meeting with features like Jem's except for the hair and eye color. Which is just as odd as when Clare had Tessa state in Clockwork Angel that Jem and Magnus have similar facial features which would probably never happen since Magnus is Dutch/Indonesian mixed and to some people Indonesians aren't even Asian, they are Pacific Islanders. However his background and features have so little influence on the story and are so non-specific, and partially stereotypical, that I can easily understand how someone could just forget it, especially in books this big.
Just like I can understand why someone would immediately say that this is Will on the cover, since the only thing these two have in common is how European they look. Allegedly this guy is the cover model:
http://biblioceraptor.tumblr.com/post...
And the guy looks so European (at least on the pictures) that I wonder whether there is truly anything "Asian" in his face or whether I am just imagining it. But one thing is clear: make his hair black instead of brown, give him blue contact lenses and he fits Will in every way. He has the hair, the face and the body. He is the direct opposite of skinny and sickly looking Jem.
As for why the cover is supposed to be Jem: It seems only because Clare said so. Some people here tried to justify it and come up with other reasons but so far it comes down to these:
1) Clare said so (very common)
2) He has a cane so it's Jem and allegedly no one else ever owned it (although then it could easily have been his father since he owned the cane first)
3) That is Jem prior to the demon powder addiction (makes no sense since the guy is clearly not 11 and Jem already had partially silver hair and eyes at age 12)
4) Who else is it supposed to be (well pretty much everyone else in my mind but not Jem)
5) That hair is silver (no idea how anyone can justify that)
6) That is Jem, period. (not actually a reason/explanation, but it happened)
Just like Ms Clare messed it up with Magnus as being half Indonesian, no big wonder that she would do the same with Jem. She should have read more about China and Indonesian histories and cultures before she made her characters part of both countries.
Well part of both countries in each case quite a stretch if you ask me. Both Shanghai and Batavia were at the time these two lived there in many ways realms of their own with not much in common with their surrounding lands. The majority of Batavia's population in the 18th century, in which according to TBC10 Magnus was born, was "imported" from around the Dutch empire and you read what I wrote about Shanghai.In Magnus's case, would it be realistic, the fact that his mother was the daughter of a Dutch officer and a "native" woman would mean he probably would not have wed off his daughter to some low ranking dutch guy. It would most likely have been someone working for the Dutch East Indies trading company and as such he would have been high in the local hierarchy. Based on that and the time he was allegedly born (which might change again) Magnus would have come from a wealthy background, probably barely knowing mother and father, being raised by the slaves of the household, being officially European and probably having a Dutch name and while Malay or Portugues would be the most likely language he could just as well have learned the language spoken by the slaves.
And nothing in the books indicate any of this, or any description of that place. Also he stated at age 10 after he killed his father in self defense he went to the "Fathers of the church," but would Dutch protestant clerics even have referred to themselves as such?
Patrisha wrote: "Michelle wrote: "Andre wrote: "No, he isn't. He is what Americans would call a Hapa. "I am American and have never heard the term Hapa. What is that???"
I'm glad someone else asked that. I'm Ame..."
I live on the East Coast..... I guess like Andre said maybe it is West Coast thing IDK LOL :/
It probably is, similar to the different uses of the terms "Latino" and "hispanic."
BOOKLOVER_123 wrote: "i totally agree with you. "
Well since you are the millionth person saying that it is "obvious," maybe you can finally enlighten us. How is the guy "slightly Asian", how is his hair silver, why does the cane have any significance? Any answer for these and all the other instances where the cover doesn't fit Jem's prescription but matches Will's perfectly?
What is your reasoning for saying that this is Jem?
Honestly I could barely match up the person on each cover with a character. (So.. I just ignored the cover.)
I must honestly congratulate you. Ever since I read that Clare actually got praise for this cover I could no no longer ignore it.And when I think about it, pretty much all of her covers are pretty useless. I mean what do they tell you about the content of the books? So far pretty much nothing and this here is no exception.
...uuummm i think this guy is fine for the cover(probably because hes hot..but hey)even though its not what we all imagined cassie got a lot of good feed back from it...we just have to deal with it...cause theres no perfect jem out there for each and every one of us...but we can dream ..its free..:):):)
Why do "we just have to deal with it?" Sounds to me as though we readers should just accept whatever authors throw at us.And the reason that she got "a lot of good feed back from it" is one of the many problems. Or are you gonna tell me they couldn't at least have given him a wig or something?
And be honest, whose description does this guy fit more: Will or Jem?
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http://shadowhunters.wikia.com/wiki/C..."
Do I really have to elaborate as to why the wikia is..."
Well good to know. And yes I wrote a weird sentence but I don't care. I was on my phone as I was typing that and my autocorrect changes up my sentences half the time. I apologize for not answering your question the way you wanted it to be answered. I only answered it the way I read and understood it. Even if Jem's description barely matches the cover who gives a crap? It's just a cover and not all covers are accurate on what people want the characters to look like.
End of discussion.