Clockwork Prince
discussion
That is not Jem on the cover
Who is on the first cover and who is on the second? That's all I want to know.
The guy on the first cover is supposed to be Will, which mostly fits apart from the hair length. The guy on the second cover is supposed to be Jem, but neither hair, eyes, nor skin tone fit. Technically not even the eye form since there is no hint of an epicanthus. And just because a cover is supposed to represent a character doesn't mean that it does. Take this book from Legacy of the Drow: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/23...The old guy with the white hair is supposed to be the main character Drizzt. But the only thing this guy has in common with Drizzt is the white hair and that both are elves. Drizzt doesn't have that forehead plate neither is his skin so pink, he has dark skin (referred to as ebony). In addition while Drizzt is about the age this guy on the cover looks this would only apply if Drizzt were human, but he is a dark elf and those at age 50-60 look like a human of about 20.
And this is from a bestselling series, and I have plenty of other examples.
Simply because someone is on the cover and is supposed to represent a character doesn't mean that the desription fits the character. And that is the case with the cover of Clockwork Prince. The cover for the Manga fits Jem more than the book does.
Andre wrote: "@Seiren04By what definition is that hair silver? That is not even dark grey. Like I said, Clare was quite specific on that feature. What silver looks like this? Also there is not just the hair. There is the skin and the eyes also.
And yes I know people interpret looks differently and that is ok where the looks aren't described, but personally I think it is very weird and slightly disturbing when people ignore such a specific description.
It's acceptable as silver to me though xD And the cover has some effects that may change the hue of the color. But seriously, if you wouldn't think too much of it, the reader will easily assume that it's Jem especially now that the three books are out and obviously all the 3 main characters are in the cover.
That's your opinion but my opinion is I think you think too much of it, sometimes when I read, I forget what the character might really look like, I leave it to my imagination and sometimes thinking some Hollywood actor close to the description in the book portraying it, and I find myself enjoying my read more because the character became what he looks like according to my liking. But if it still bugs you, I can't do anything about it because I don't care about the cover.
Sorry but just not thinking about it is in my eyes saying that it is ok that they made such a big mistake, it is the same as saying that it is ok that Clare copied from so many popular titles of the last 10 years and that her historic characters don't fit their times at all.Also you already made it clear in your earlier comment that this hair is silver to you. That was not what I asked, I asked by what definition is that hair, which is obviously in bright light judging by the brightness of the shoulders, actually silver.
If it would be "just a cover" I would agree with you. But the problem is that Clare even got credit from racebending.com for choosing this cover. And I don't think she deserves that, not when she clearly did not make sure that the cover fits. And generally, when you do a cover of a book and have a main character on it, you better make sure that the model fits the description. And I stand by it because the evidence leads me to it, this cover model does not match the description of Jem in any way, actually that kid looks more like Will then it does Jem.
Honestly, you've made your point clearly that you dislike every aspect of the cover for this book. Not everyone agrees and you still are trying to get us all to be as picky and annoyed as you are. It's not that big a deal for most of us and it makes you upset. Write to CClare if you can't stand it and see if she gives you a reason why she picked this one. Maybe the others were so horrific this one looked amazing in comparison. Maybe she is really bad at describing him.
For someone who claims to be a non-fan, you are way over the top on your cover art outrage.
Actually it seems I have not... you know what; I will not take the blame for you apparently not reading. I said that the cover didn't match Jem, I didn't say that I dislike every aspect of it. And the fact that you now claim that I do without there being any evidence for this whatsoever makes your ability to make judgment and conclusion questionable in my eyes.I don't care about you not making a big deal for it. I care about truth and not defending a lie, what you and others did, because if that cover would actually be what Clare claimed and what she was credited for all you would not have to come up with stuff like "who else should it be", "I don't care," "he is Asian", "he has a cane" and "Clare said so."
Clare already mentioned why she picked this cover, did you even bother to check the link? And seriously, she asked for photos of models, do you think the other guys were ugly or what? Seriously what is going on in your head?
Also no living human has silver hair and eyes. To have the bright silver she mentioned all they had to do was give the model contact lenses and a wig of the appropriate color or just use simple photoshop. Plenty of fan-artists did that so they could have as well, had they actually cared about that. But apparently they did not.
And seriously? You are actually suggesting I should waste my time and writing to Cassandra Clare? The queen of copying, whining, stereotyping and writing bad books? You cannot possibly be that naive. Would Clare listen to constructive criticism she would have never even published a single book. My chances of getting someone like you to listen are higher than getting Clare to acknowledge even a single error. And considered how you act I know I will never get through your thick skull unless I take really extreme measures and I won't do that. My goal is to reach people that are actually open to critical analyzes even if they are fans.
Actually your latest sentence leads even more weight to that issue of what is going on in your head. Your sentence suggests that it is inconceivable to you that a non-fan should actually care about such things. I guess you probably have no actual interest on hearing the reason but I am gonna write it anyway so maybe some less thick will understand them:
Clare is credited with supposedly being progressive and inclusive for having non-whites and even non-heterosexuals in main roles. But here is the deal:
Alec is only support, so are most non-whites in her books. And those non-whites that are more than extra are just support and all of them are half-whites and have European names, even the "great Jem". Magnus, the great "advocate" for being bisexual and "Asian" is also only half-Asian, but that is usually ignored by Clare, also the way she describes him he is a sex-obsessed, selfish, fashion crazy diva who cares about himself first and foremost. Will and Jace are douchebags that use their bad past as an excuse for the behavior. Clary and Tessa are both arrogant snobs who never listen to anyone and mess everything up, unless of course their Mary Sue powers come into play. And the rest of her characters are idiotic teenagers, despite all the claims that they are supposedly so good at what they do.
Clare has produced absolutely nothing progressive or good in any way and it bugs me to no end that these turds she produces are sold as gold and actual talented writers can't get a foothold because the millions of fans like you like this shit and find all sorts of excuses for overlooking the countless flaws of her work and thereby continue to read, admire her and buy her stuff. And what little I can do to raise awareness on what a bad job she does, I will do.
Jeni has already said that she wanted peace, and yet you continue to contradict her for her opinion. Clearly, you are just looking for an argument. If you're going to start a topic, know that not everyone is going to agree with you.Arguing about Cassandra's writing and style is completely off topic and unnecessary. With your last comment, your true colors began to show. It isn't the cover that bothers you at all, but rather, Cassandra's success as a writer. Cassandra is a talented woman, and it's up to her to decide the characters and their personalities for her books. Not you. If you don't like her books, then don't read them. No one is forcing you to.
Jem was asian, and he did not look that creepy!!!!!!!!!!!
FantasySheBeast999 wrote: "☢ Catherine ☯ the Psychotic Comedian wrote: "You're are right. Jem was black, whereas the man on the cover is Asian.Pretty messy, if you ask me."
JEM WAS AN ASIAN!!!!"
To the comedian Jem had BLACK HAIR that turned colour due to the yin fen!!!
FantasySheBeast999 wrote: "☢ Catherine ☯ the Psychotic Comedian wrote: "You're are right. Jem was black, whereas the man on the cover is Asian.Pretty messy, if you ask me."
JEM WAS AN ASIAN!!!!"
To the comedian Jem had BLACK HAIR that turned colour due to the yin fen!!!
Apparently I hit a nerve, so I apologize. You and I are not going to agree because we aren't having the same conversation. I feel bad you are so upset about the cover of this book because it's no big deal to me and no matter what I say, I will make you mad.
Yes, I don't understand your outrage about this cover. It feels like there is an unbalanced investment of anger over something you can do nothing about. When people give you suggestions in a spirit of helping and you are unwilling to consider any of them to the point of being insulting, you are not here for answers or discussion-you are here to rant. Ranting is cool, but next time maybe you should prelude your comments with that statement so nobody comes here expecting a conversation.
Additionally, regardless of what you have said, I never called you names or insulted you in any way. I would appreciate the same courtesy.
I'm out. Peace.
Andre wrote: "The way that kid looks I can understand why people thought that this was Will. "Yes, I thought the dude on the cover of CP is Will before you mentioned it isn't!
☢ Catherine ☯ the Psychotic Comedian wrote: "You're are right. Jem was black, whereas the man on the cover is Asian.Pretty messy, if you ask me."
what?
Now I know what you meant, Andre. People are going "Clare said so", "Will is on the first cover and Tessa is on the third, so the second has to be Jem!" and "That's Jem! Even though he doesn't have silver hair! Still he's definitely Jem!" on us.XD
Not all of them, even fans admit that, but as you can see, others don't, no matter what.Now as for Mariana and Jeni:
You two are hopeless cases. You actually think the way you reacted is reasonable and nice. No it is not. Assuming something what wasn't stated is not nice. Not even reading the evidence that was presented or simply brushing it off is not "not insulting".
You Mariana were the one moking me first because I dared to say that the hair on the cover is not silver or will you deny that as well.
As for both of you: If all this aggravates you so much and unlike me you both don't want to continue with what you assume is a rant fast, then stop it. Delete this from your Update Feed and just go. It was you Mariana who in her moking said to me to get over myself and you Jeni always say peace, so just go. If you have no interest in this, why are you stull here?
And yes, Clare's writing style is part of the problem, it is the same problem. You Mariana and other say she is a talented writer when in truth she copies the good stuff of others (Buffy, Star Wars, Harry Potter etc.) and sells it as her own, but bad. Her stories have more holes than a swiss cheese, there are constant grammar errors, her characters react totally unrealistic and the inconsistencies just built up. And it is the same with the covers, this one here is simply the most obvious. Clare again messed up and people defend her for it. Worse they actually think this is Jem.
With all that, you still didn't answer who was on the cover.Maybe when someone says they don't want to talk to you, you should stop responding to their comments.
I could say the same to you. Why are you still here if you don't want to talk?Also how on earth should I know who the guy was? Do yiu think I can call the publisher and ask?
I said that this kid is clearly not Jem since he doesn't fit Jem's desription. But if you must know, except for the eye-color he fits the desription of Will.
And that is actually very telling. Since Clare clearly prefers white people.
If that's the case then change the topic of this discussion to "That is clearly not Jem on the cover" and not "That is not Jem on the cover"Don't respond to this.
Don't worry, I have no idea how to appropriately respond to the nonsense you just wrote.
It actually doesn't bother me too much.I just think that the people who made the cover interpreted it differently.
I do not mean to offend anyone. Everybody has their own opinion. Everybody imagines the characters differently.
You do not have to agree with me. Like I said earlier, everybody has their own opinions, and this is mine.
Don't hate me.:)
I don't hate anybody, I want explanations. I mean Jem's hair, eyes and skin were not ambiguously described so how on earth could anyone think this tanned, black-haired, possibly honey-eyed (I can't be sure) kid would fit Jem's description?
So this "the author said so" again. Why is that relevant? In case you forgot: She described Jem long before that cover model was chosen!It doesn't matter where he is from, it matters how his looks are described and this kid does not match Jem's description. Apart from the eyes the kid matches Will. Which is very telling actually, since Clare clearly portrays white people as the epitome of beauty in her books.
Because he isn't. You can see his profile, hair and skin tone, his whole face, clearly. That is not the point. It doesn't matter who is on the other covers, what matters is who is on the cover of Clockwork Prince. And the fact is that the makers apparently did not care enough to make the cover fit.
Actually it is, because Clare takes credit for it. She is supposedly so progressive in that she took an "Asian" model (as if that one looks much "Asian") but apparently she did not care enough to make sure that it actually represents Jem on the cover. Also several other statements she made smack of Orientalism and hypodescent in my eyes and this book cover plays right into it. Also it represents how obsessed she is with white superiority, since this kid looks so much like Will was described that many people thought it was Will on the cover and I can fully understand why.In addition, your responses are the same every other defender said. All tried to push the discussion into another direction but none could provide any evidence as to why this cover is a correct representation of Jem.
Andre wrote: "She is supposedly so progressive in that she took an "Asian" model (as if that one looks much "Asian") but apparently she did not care enough to make sure that it actually represents Jem on the cover. "Okay, I can deal with the cover model of CP looking nothing like Jem---bad cover and lazy cover are being produced ALL THE TIME. But have Clare taking credit for choosing a cover model who LOOKS BARELY ANYTHING LIKE A CHINESE AND CAN BE EASILY MISTAKEN AS A WESTERNER to represent Jem, a half British, half Chinese character? THAT IS TOO MUCH.
Haven't Andre already mentioned a lot of fan-made covers of CP came up with models who're better than the dude on the official cover? And have you ever heard of a thing call photoshop, that can easily change hair color into silver or some other unlikely colors?
Criticism is not offense. Cassandra Clare put herself into the spotlight and criticism comes with that. As for her taking credit for that cover: http://www.racebending.com/v4/feature...So we should stop because it might offend Clare? No, that is called freedom of speech and we are pointing out what is wrong with her book.
Also Mizuki is correct, the cover could have easily been edited with photoshop, or the model could have worn a wig and contact lenses. The main problem is not the face, but the hair and the eyes. Us critics would get along with the wrong eye shape but the hair and eyes are such a striking feature that is often mentioned that not including it is downright sloppy work.
As for better made pictures of Jem, try these examples:
http://fav.me/d471so1
http://fav.me/d3gd3cv
http://fav.me/d4lv69z
http://fav.me/d2y1h9m
http://fav.me/d54cu75
http://25.media.tumblr.com/26e2c54df3...
http://i53.tinypic.com/jg40b7.png
They are not perfect but better done than the cover since they show what is possible even for lay people.
Also, they had used photoshop for all the light effects and runes on the cover of TMI, so don't come along and say it would not have been possible to use that. By the time of CP Clare had made money, so the budget was higher and when she can effort to have people search of a model, she could not afford this? Especially when everyday people can.
I really like that one:http://ladycecilyblacklady.deviantart...
And those fanarts are perfect reminders to point out how difficult it would be for Jem to live in London. For starters, everyone would have stared at him for his "strange" hair and eyes color.
That is what I thought in the book right away. Had he had hair and eyes like this: http://photomorphosis.deviantart.com/...It would have worked but not the way he currently looks.
that little Red H'mong boy in the picture can work out, though when you look closely for long enough you will still notice he is mixed or an Asian.
Sure he is Asian, but he would have caused less attention and suspicion than Jem does. I think people wpuld accept a blond-haired full Asian way more likely than a silver-haired human, no matter the facial features.
Andre wrote: "Speople wpuld accept a blond-haired full Asian way more likely than a silver-haired human, no matter the facial features. "How true.
Yeah truth, the thing the people in Clare's universe seem to have a problem with. :/
I didn't know it was Jem the first time I saw it
That is what I am saying, if it is so obviously Jem as the defenders say, then why did so many people not recognize him right away? Some people bitch that some fans would want Mitch Hewer to play Jem in a film adaptation, but to be honest Hewer fits the description more than the book cover, and he is a blue-eyed, dirty blond (on photos he is normally dyed blond) and full-blooded english guy.And like I showed, lay people could get it right.
But to get a bit more constructive thoughts into here again:
What do you think is the reason that the cover model does not fit Jem?
Like I said, I personally am not buying that it would have been impossible to make them match, so I think what we see here is an example of Clare's obsession with the character of Will. She might not have done it consciously but I think that is what she did: she chose a model that looks most like Will.
☢ Catherine ☯ the Psychotic Comedian wrote: "You're are right. Jem was black, whereas the man on the cover is Asian.Pretty messy, if you ask me."
He was black?
Don't listen to that, she wrote that once or twice and then vanished. I am sure she was just trolling.Jem was described as being pale, with bright silver hair and eyes; with facial features that fit apparently very well with British people and only the shape of his eyes distinguish his facial features from those of average Europeans.
There was no hint of even a tan in sight.
This is a pretty good Jem for me except maybe I pictured his hair a bit more silver, but everyone pictures characters, differently there is no right or wrong.
Not again this. How is it possible that you maybe pictured the hair a bit more silver? CA described it as bright silver like an untarnished shilling. Where is there any ambiguity or something to be misunderstood?
Hey! It was just my opinion sorry!
And this is all every defender ever says when they say somthing about the hair specifically. Seriously, that was one of the few elements where Clare was specific and so far not contradicting herself. So how could you have thought that kid on the cover matches Jem?I try to understand it, but it is not working.
To be honest, I didn't even realize it was Jem on the cover until I saw the cane. When I would pick up the book to continue reading it, I had always regarded it as being Will. (I would only briefly glance at it)When I finished the book, and I was looking at the cover I noticed it must have been Jem on the cover because of the cane, but that was the only hint I was given.
When I saw this cover I was like... THAT'S JEM! I looked kinda obvious to me because he was holding the cane, had silvery-ish hair & eyes and to me, he actually looked part Asian.
The guy on the cover looks fine to me...
He looks barely Asian, which is the only thing the kid has in common with Jem. And to be honest I am not buying it that you actually think that hair and eyes are the described silver. They are nowhere near bright silver. Look at the cover again. The head is clearly in full light from above as is evident by the bright color of the shoulders and upper bodies and nonetheless that hair is to 98% black. This kid has black hair and not silver hair. A version of Jem more true to the text would look like this: http://25.media.tumblr.com/26e2c54df3...
Bre wrote: "I didn't know it was Jem the first time I saw it"I second this.
Andre wrote: "She might not have done it consciously but I think that is what she did: she chose a model that looks most like Will. "Freaking hell, that's so unfair! Will is just so awesome that even Jem has to look like him! Yuck!
At least that seems like a more plausible explanation in my eyes then just saying "It must be Jem because its the cover of Clockwork Prince".
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If I misunderstood your intent, I apologize. I just don't care what Jem looks like on the cover because I know what he looks like in my mind. I'm sure the movie Jem will be much different yet again and I will still default to the picture I have in my mind from the book.
Peace