Clockwork Prince
discussion
That is not Jem on the cover
You're are right. Jem was black, whereas the man on the cover is Asian.
Pretty messy, if you ask me.
Pretty messy, if you ask me.
A little hint, a bad joke is a bad joke.In addition the guy on the cover looks barely Asian. That is the only thing he has in common with Jem. And not even that in the right way.
I think they did a pretty good job depicting Jem on the cover. I suppose the biggest difference between the description and the cover is that Jem isn't that pale on the cover. Perhaps it was chosen to make him look more natural to indicate that he's feeling better because of his (view spoiler) We all visualize Jem differently. I suppose the cover Jem is just one variation...
☢ Catherine ☯ the Psychotic Comedian wrote: "You're are right. Jem was black, whereas the man on the cover is Asian.Pretty messy, if you ask me."
JEM WAS AN ASIAN!!!!
Haha, I didn't think it looked like Jem either. But the more I looked at it, the more I think it looks like him. If you look closely,his hair is silver. The light makes it look black, but up close, it's definently silver. And he does look Chinese in the cover. It's hard to match it with his hair, but it couldn't be anyone else. To be honest, at first I did think this was Will, and the person on Clockwork Angel was the Magister, haha. Guess I was wrong. Love all of her cover art though!
idk i think it really does look like jem but on the cover he looks pretty healthy except for his silver hair. Jem was half british wasn't he? so by looking at the cover it's a little hard but you can see that he is asian.
Sorry, but simply saying he is Asian or looks Asian is not enough people. Also when you say he looks Asian despite his Hapa status then it is also legible to say that he looks white, which apparently no one does.But no matter what Jem was described as having facial features that would not stand out in Britain, apart from his eyes. And that doesn't fit this kid. Also that kid looks closer to Vietnamese in my eyes than Chinese. The way Jem was described he would fit rather Mario Maurer or teenage versions of Thomas Price and Brandon Lee.
But either way, picking some hair strands and saying they are silver is no reasoning either, for me it sounds like an excuse.
Jem's hair and eyes were described as bright silver and such a color doesn't darken so easily, even with that light it would not look like that. The same with his very pale skin. For all that to look that dark the surroundings would need to be so dark that we could barely see the features.
So for me it is basically sloppy work. After all are they gonna tell me they couldn't have done some photoshopping or hair dying? Seriously fans on the internet did a better job.
Also that the guy on the cover of CA was mistaken to be the magister is also no surprise, since we barely see the face (very typical for Clare books) and he also has locks, which will doesn't have.
Clare and her publisher are simply sloppy again, just like with the texts.
It looks like the first two covers have to be swapped.
Gabby wrote: "It looks like the first two covers have to be swapped."Well Jem still doesn't have locks, but at least the book of the first cover would fit more.
Instantly I knew it was Jem. Silver hair, the cane. Slightly Asian. Its Jem. Will is on the first cover. Which is also obvious and Jem on the second. Finally Tessa is on the third. It is obvious!
Yeah because that is what is said. But if someone would not say that, how would it be then?Objectively speaking, where on earth does that kid have silver hair?
Where is that hair an odd bright silver color, like an untarnished shilling?
That is black hair that reflects light.
And where are those eyes the same silver and where is the slight curve? Those are at most hazel.
And last but not least:
Where is that kid quite pale indeed?
That kid seems to have a slight tan.
Jem was half Asian. He was supposed to have silver hair and eyes, 5'11, but definitely half Asian.
I seriously thought this was Will.
With good reason, since he matches that description way more than Jem.Daisy97 wrote: "Jem was half Asian. He was supposed to have silver hair and eyes, 5'11, but definitely half Asian."
Well half Asian is in my experience very unreliable when applied to physical features. You got some you would say are in between, some you would say look full Asian and some full White. And I am talking about first generation mixes. And by the way full Asian or half Asian is not the topic, the topic is that the kid does not look like Jem.
And therefore I don't think Clare and the publishers should be given credit for it.
I'm not too fussed by covers, personally. If the author liked them enough to approve them, then that's good enough for me.
Technically, he was Chinese. He was from Shanghai. People will probably be annoyed with this comment, sorry, but it was bugging me :)
Yea I thought it was confusing too. I expected Jem and there was Will on the cover.
I am half-Asian and know multiple other half Asians, so I can accurately tell you that Asian features are definitely dominant over "white people" ones. You can see definite signs of both sides in mixed-race children, but the pattern of strength is as follows: African---->Asian---->White.
Okay, Will is on the first cover, Tessa was on the third, this is Jem, obviously. Maybe he's not the perfect looking Jem, but there is very clearly silver hair and a cane! As far as I'm concerned that's all you need to know that it's Jem. C'mon guys, really...
No, not " C'mon guys, really". You are making excuses and expect us to do the same. You fish for tiny details to justify that the makers did a bad job. Fact is that kid has no silver hair and no silver eyes. That hair is black. What definition of silver do you have that you actually think this is Jem? Look at the start of the thread. That kid doesn't fit the description at all. Jordan wrote: "Technically, he was Chinese. He was from Shanghai. People will probably be annoyed with this comment, sorry, but it was bugging me :)"
Technically he is mixed, considered the time it is very unlikely that he would have been raised chinese only. Not that I doubt that Clare only sees him as Chinese, she usually identifies her mixed characters simply as non-white, but that is not the topic here.
Also what he is if of no importance here, the topic is only that the kid on the cover doesn't fit Jem at all.
Andre wrote: "No, not " C'mon guys, really". You are making excuses and expect us to do the same. You fish for tiny details to justify that the makers did a bad job. Fact is that kid has no silver hair and no si..."Who cares? Honestly, I think you're just nitpicking just to nitpick, so I could say the same for you. Everyone's perception of what Jem looks like is different. The cover is alredy published on hundreds of thousands of covers, and there is nothing that can be done about it now. Throwing a fit because it doesn't look like the character is going to get you no where I'm afraid. You are allowed your opinion, obviously, but so is everyone else, just because he doesn't look like the Jem that YOU pictured, doesn't mean he doesn't fit perfectly for everyone else. And honestly, his face isn't even that clear, it's not like it's a close up shot of his face, maybe then there'd be things to pick at, but this? You see a guy, with a cane and long, sort of silvery hair. That's all you need to know that it is intended to be Jem.
Have you seen the rest of the YA covers? They're all the same. The publishing house chooses the models who appear on the cover, so what you get is what you get. It's just like movie casting, griping is going to do NOTHING.
Suck it up.
Andre wrote: "Sorry, but simply saying he is Asian or looks Asian is not enough people. Also when you say he looks Asian despite his Hapa status then it is also legible to say that he looks white, which apparent..."I wish i could up-vote this sooooooooo much!
Well that is not posssible with comments here. But still, when you say a Hapa is Asian it is just as legitimate to say that he/she is white and as such you cannot use that Argument for casting choices like Clare did.
Samantha wrote: "Instantly I knew it was Jem. Silver hair, the cane. Slightly Asian. Its Jem. Will is on the first cover. Which is also obvious and Jem on the second. Finally Tessa is on the third. It is obvious!"I agree Samantha. I think it really looks like Jem on the cover of Clockwork Prince
Based on what?Brittney wrote: "
Who cares? Honestly, I think you're just nitpicking just to nitpick, so I could say the same for you. Everyone's perception of what Jem looks like is different. The cover is alredy published on hundreds of thousands of covers, and there is nothing that can be done about it now. Throwing a fit because it doesn't look like the character is going to get you no where I'm afraid. You are allowed your opinion, obviously, but so is everyone else, just because he doesn't look like the Jem that YOU pictured, doesn't mean he doesn't fit perfectly for everyone else. And honestly, his face isn't even that clear, it's not like it's a close up shot of his face, maybe then there'd be things to pick at, but this? You see a guy, with a cane and long, sort of silvery hair. That's all you need to know that it is intended to be Jem.
Have you seen the rest of the YA covers? They're all the same. The publishing house chooses the models who appear on the cover, so what you get is what you get. It's just like movie casting, griping is going to do NOTHING.
Suck it up. "
Well with the last sentence you just provided evidence that you cannot take criticism of the series and actually do not respect others opinions, no you want to be right. Which you are quite frankly not.
It is not the Jem I "pictured," but not the Jem described by the book. The description is not exactly ambiguous, it's very clear about that and Jem's paleness was mentioned several times throughout the books. And Jem's hair is not "sort of silver" it is silver like an untarnished shilling. That is very clear, so the makers of the cover couldn't do some photoshop?
And if the cover actually fit no one would have confused it with Will. And in case you haven't noticed, Jem's hair is a very prominent feature, unlike his face.
Also regarding your casting:
Based on what you say I guess we should be thankful about the casting of the Last Airbender.
Also you are wrong, Clare chose the cover model, at least she claims to: http://www.racebending.com/v4/feature...
Also that face is clearly visible, you can even see the slightly dimpled chin and the eye color. So the face is very clear.
And you also cannot say that the look is not important since the cause why he looks that way is central to his character. So the cover should depict that.
I didn't realise it was Jem simply because I thought the person on the cover looked too healthy. I imagined Jem looking a lot more drawn & thin. After further inspection I think it looks as a healthy Jem would.
I think the eyes are not right then, since I think the description refers to Jem having an epicanthic fold while the kid on the doesn't.Anyway even in that case its simply the wrong cover since at that age Jem didn't look that way. When a cover shows a person from the book it has to show that person in a way that represents the person in the book.
Cover art is never what I expect from what I read. Even when it's just a landscape, the book may have given me a different idea and I can't reconcile the two. Just my two cents.
Well when the artist who makes the cover and the author are two different people it can happen, not that this is any excuse, but Clare herself chose the model and apparently had a lot to say in the making here, so why couldn't they just use photoshop? Or use lenses and a wig?
Brittney wrote: "Andre wrote: "No, not " C'mon guys, really". You are making excuses and expect us to do the same. You fish for tiny details to justify that the makers did a bad job. Fact is that kid has no silver ..."Brittney, I could hug you! :D Loved this!
Then you can surely explain what makes her rant fest a valid argument.
There is three books and three main characters, Will is on the first, Tessa is on the second. If that's not Jem on the cover than who is it? Because no other character fits that description. They're not going to change the cover to suit your preferences, so just read the book and try not to look at the cover if it bothers you so much.
If you actually think I am trying to change the cover then you must think I am an idiot. That was never the topic, the topic is that this is not Jem, by your reasoning I should just overlook the flaws and abuse in 50 Shades of Grey because the author will not change the text.And you know what is funny? So far none of you defenders of the cover have so far brought fourth any valid argument.
They are either completely ignorant of Jem's description in the book, are based on false assumptions (e.g. that Clare did not have a say in the cover) or are simply, like yours, a shouting to shut up.
That doesn't let you pro-covers look very good so far.
You for instance seem to say that this must be Jem because Will and Tessa were on the other covers. Well surprise, just because cover 1 fit Will, somewhat, doesn't mean that the others have to as well. The woman on CP2 looked too old to be Tessa, but at least she fit the general description of her. This kid on the cover doesn't look like Jem at all. And if you think that hair actually looks like silver, here are some silver coins in low light: http://www.silver-coin-investor.com/i...
Their color isn't even close to the black of the cover model. If that one actually had silver hair it would look closer to the color of the upper portion of his suit.
PS. there iss a character who fits that description: Will: Will is described to have deep violet-blue eyes and black hair that falls in his eyes. He has elegant features - high cheekbones; long, thick lashes; full lips and an elegant throat. He is muscular and well built with broad shoulders. He is mentioned to be 6 foot tall and have callused hands from his years of training as a Shadowhunter. He is said to be extremely handsome by most people.
Andre wrote: "If you actually think I am trying to change the cover then you must think I am an idiot. That was never the topic, the topic is that this is not Jem, by your reasoning I should just overlook the fl..."You HAVE GOT to be kidding me. I just grabbed my copies of both clockwork angel and clockwork prince, and clockwork prince has JEM on the cover. Are you color blind? That is obviously silver hair. He is holding a freaking cane! Does Will have a cane? No, he doesn't. You're obviously in denial. Or what did you think? 3 completly new characters are on the covers of books when they weren't even mentioned in the books? Your OPINION is not, I repeat NOT a valid argument. Hey everybody, lets look up colors to prove the exact shade of silver!!! How ridiculous is that? Did you really think we were gonna do that? Everybody knows it's Jem. Get over yourself.
If CC chose the model and approved the artwork, but neglected to change the text to match, how is that the fault of the artist?I just can't be that picky on art the author herself approved. Sorry. It's my only argument. She liked it and approved it.
Also, this entire thread is a good argument for plain covers with plain text.
☢ Catherine ☯ the Psychotic Comedian wrote: "You're are right. Jem was black, whereas the man on the cover is Asian.Pretty messy, if you ask me."
What? Jem was black? :O
Nazia~ThatArtsyGirl wrote: "☢ Catherine ☯ the Psychotic Comedian wrote: "You're are right. Jem was black, whereas the man on the cover is Asian.Pretty messy, if you ask me."
What? Jem was black? :O"
They were just being sarcastic. He's half British, half Chinese
She wasn't sarcastic, she was just trolling.Clare wrote the description of Jem in CA, and she chose the model for CP. She could have made sure that he looked like Jem.
And shouting at me and insulting me will not help your case. Neither will it to say "he has a Cane it is Jem" or "that hair is silver period." It will only damage your own. What you are doing is getting aggressive, maybe because a part of you must know that the cover does not fit and possibly cou cannot admit that to yourself and so you lash out at those that criticise it because by that they are critizising you. And alot of people, even here on the dicussion (which is not what you are doing by the way) think that this cover does not look like Jem. Also it is not just silver, the hair was described as bright silver, will you challenge the definition of the wird "bright" as well?
Again, you provided nothing, you are exactly like the defenders I mentioned. All you do is shouting and hating and thinking you are right. You are not discussing, not even in the least.
Perhaps you should follow your own advice and get over yourself!!! Because apparently you are way too emotionally invested to have any sort of discussion that is not a shouting match.
Andre wrote: "She wasn't sarcastic, she was just trolling.Clare wrote the description of Jem in CA, and she chose the model for CP. She could have made sure that he looked like Jem.
And shouting at me and insu..."
This is not a trial, or a case. Believe what you want, but that is Jem. Everybody knows it, it's a fact. You won't admit to yourself that the cover has Jem on it, and instead are trying to question my intelligence. Like I said before, you can't change the cover, so there shouldnt't even be a discussion on something you can't change; because whenever someone proves your point is wrong you try covering up your embarrassment by saying "that is not a valid argument". Well, if your a true fan of Cassandra Clare's writing, you wouldn't make such a big deal about the cover of her book. She approved of it and she thought it was good. By saying, "She could have made sure that he looked like Jem," you are saying that it is Jem but just doesn't look like him. Basically just dissing your own argument. However, if you said that it just doesn't look like him I would agree just a bit because he should be pale and scrawny. But just because it doesn't look EXACTLY like Jem's decription, doesn't mean that it isn't him, because it is. The capslock does not mean "yelling", it means emphasis on certain words.
When I wrote that you are yelling I was referring to your whole tone and not just the capital letters.Also I never questioned your intelligence, simply your "reasoning," that is a big difference.
In addition, like I already said, this was never about changing the cover and by your "logic" we should also not discuss ... well any book because it won't change anything about the book. So if a book is poorly written we are not allowed to discuss it? Or the other way around, let's say a book is well written, then we are not allowed to discuss that either? Is that what you are trying to say? That everybody should just shut up?
And apparently you still haven't read the content of this thread or otherwise you would not have once again claimed that everyone saw Jem on the cover when they first saw it.
because whenever someone proves your point is wrong you try covering up your embarrassment by saying "that is not a valid argument".
So I do that? Strange wasn't it you who wrote ? Your OPINION is not, I repeat NOT a valid argument.?
And as for me isnulting you, wasn't it you who wrote You're obviously in denial.?
Both of these things you wrote before I theorized on why you are lashing out at me with such violence, so don't come now and act like you are the victim.
Because here is the thing, there are others here who basically said the same as you and they didn't resort to your language and methods. So apparently it has nothing to do with being a true fan. Also others rated the book 5 stars and said that they thought it was Will on the cover, will you say that they are not true fans?
Also I reject the "arguments" of the defenders for the reasons I already mentioned: they simply say that is Jem, that is silver, it must be Jem, that kid has a cane and only Jem has a cane etc. All they, and you, said is that this is Jem, but not why, their "reasoning" was like this "I cannot think of another person that could be the guy on the cover and so it must be Jem". But the fact that also here people stated that they thought it was Will obviously proves that there is at least that option. And like I showed the cover model does fit the description of Will more than he does the one of Jem.
By making an argument you provide evidence for that argument and don't just state that something is true without backing it up.
So by your logic saying that the cover model does not look like Jem I admit that it is Jem but doesn't look like him? You do realize what the topic of this thread is right?
I said that the cover model doesn't look like Jem, so of course it is not Jem on the cover. Seriously, what sort of logic is that you have?
And again you just said: "it is Jem" and "the book/Clare says so" but that is not an argument, that is a logical fallacy. If the cover model would fit Jem's description then the cover would portray Jem, but the model doesn't fit Jem's description so of course it is not portraying Jem.
And something like that is not new in self-publishing, e.g. Stephenie Hecht does it all the time, with even more extreme cases.
And stating that the cover shows Jem because Clare approved of it is basing your argument on authority, but that is not logic or reasoning, it is simple obedience. An author does not get a free pass in this case, not when what she chose is not fitting the description she herself wrote down several times.
Not only does he have a cane, but he also has a cane with the dragons head on it, making it no ordinary cane. This was mentioned in TID multiple times. On the cover of Clockwork Angel, you see Will has his parabatai runes on his Right hand. And on Clockwork prince, we see Jem with his parabatai runes on his Left hand. This is how you know that it is not the same person, meaning there is not two book covers with Will. So if it's not Jem than who is it? I can't change your opinion and you can't change mine, and frankly, I don't want to talk to you anymore because this conversation is pointless.
Doesn't matter though, Jem will always be what I imagine in my mind and the same for the others. His whole appearance will be uniquely different from each readers imagination and perspective. But if you're questioning if this is Jem on the cover, I think the cane and the silver hair would be enough hint.
I agree with Seiren04; I had missed entirely that he was even half Chinese. I just read he had lived in Shanghai. So, really, I hadn't even pictured him as part Chinese anyway.I am part Native American so the epicanthic fold is something I see every day-I totally skipped over that part of the description.
My question is: if you're unhappy with the artwork, have you considered doing some fan art? I have seen so many gorgeous representations of fan art that exceed anything the book covers have portrayed. I enjoy seeing what others see in their mind's eyes when reading a book.
@MarianaA cane is just a cane. What if Clare would write that Jem's cane would be destroyed, would Jem then no longer be Jem? Tools are not a distinguishing feature of a person's identification (unless we are dealing with identical twins), but the person's physical looks. And Clare has been very specific on how Jem looks and this cover model does not fit that description. You also cannot say that the light is simply dark, because the model's shoulders and much of it's upper body is obviously in bright light and if the hair under such light conditions is still dark, then it is not the bright silver Clare described.
And you could have changed my opinion, if you had actually used valid arguments based on the features that count. But that you didn't, plain and simple. I am not gonna repeat what you did, since I said that several times already.
@Seiren04
By what definition is that hair silver? That is not even dark grey. Like I said, Clare was quite specific on that feature. What silver looks like this? Also there is not just the hair. There is the skin and the eyes also.
And yes I know people interpret looks differently and that is ok where the looks aren't described, but personally I think it is very weird and slightly disturbing when people ignore such a specific description.
@Jeni
I can understand why people would miss his Chinese ancestry, just like they would miss Magnus' Indonesian ancestry. Jem doesn't actually seem to me like someone of such background who grew up in the time after the Second Opium war. Not even if his parentage would be full british. That is the problem with Will and Tessa as well, they are way to exceptional considered the time they live in. And even being Shadowhunters is not explanation in the case of Will and Jem.
And no I have not considered much fanart, well technically I am not a fan and before you ask why I read the books, well long story short, I am a man of my word, so...
I have alot of pictures planned for my deviantart account, and currently there are only two pictures Clare related planned. One is regarding the ridiculous vampire scene in CA (when they tried to squeeze through doors instead of jumping out of the window or fly out in bat form) and one from the first book of the Bane Chronicles when Magnus shoots needles at his friends. Apart from that I have none planned so far.
Well, I was just thinking that a lot of artists must feel the way you do, because there is a whole heck of a lot of fan art out there! I'm still meh about the cover, personally. I really don't pay that much attention because I will always prefer my own vision to anything ever put on the cover.
I'll just say that when I look at the cover I think "Jem" because of the white in his hair and his accoutrements. If I spent anytime looking it over critically, I would likely come to the conclusion this is earlier in his life before his disease manifested so strongly and go back to my own vision of him.
☢ Catherine ☯ the Psychotic Comedian wrote: "You're are right. Jem was black, whereas the man on the cover is Asian.Pretty messy, if you ask me."
Jem is Asian.... aca-awkward...
That "Comedian" was probably just a troll. @Jeni
Where do you see white in that hair? Seriously where? The only highlights are obviously from the bright light shining on the head. That is also what is so downright weird about cover defenders, they seem to see things that are not there and simply overlook the obvious.
Also this can't be Jem earlier in life, because he was still a kid when he got sick, but that model is in his late teens.
all discussions on this book
|
post a new topic
Clockwork Prince (other topics)
Books mentioned in this topic
Clockwork Angel (other topics)Clockwork Prince (other topics)
The young man who appeared at the mouth of the alley was pale in the lamplight—paler even than he usually was, which was quite pale indeed. He was bareheaded, which drew the eye immediately to his hair. It was an odd bright silver color, like an untarnished shilling. His eyes were the same silver, and his fine-boned face was angular, the slight curve of his eyes the only clue to his heritage.
Now Clare got all sorts of credits for this cover, but I don't think its really derserved, since that kid doesn't look anywhere like Jem.
The way that kid looks I can understand why people thought that this was Will.