Twilight series

[Alexis]

Hahaha! And therein lies the danger.

[Tahleen]

ahahahahahahaha that DID make me laugh! FEC: F Edward Cullen.

[Alexis]

I was looking up something else and came across this and it made me laugh.
http://www.goodreads.com/book/photo/2...
Are those Edward's eyes stalking her?

[Jackie]

Alexis wrote: "I was looking up something else and came across this and it made me laugh.
http://www.goodreads.com/book/photo/2...
Are those Edward's eyes stalking her?"

That cover is freaky! lol

[[deleted user]]

Crazy eyes!

[Sara ♥]

April wrote: "OMG I read this on FML and thought you guys might laugh:
Today, my girlfriend dumped me proclaiming she wanted someone more like her "Edward". I asked her who Edward was. She held up a copy of her..."

Holy crap. That's ridiculous.

[Emma]

Wow, that's sad. I love that site though!

Poor boy. And poor girl, for that matter.

[Susanna - Censored by GoodReads]

I read Twilight when I had the flu last fall. It was a painless way to spend a day in bed.

ELEVEN-year-olds are reading this? Good God.

I will say the Junior Knitters at my knitting group are sixteen and addicted to Twilight. They talk the books, they wear the shirts, they went to the midnight first showing of the movie. (I hear it had a low budget because it wasn't aimed at teenage boys and the producers didn't realize how popular the books are with teenaged girls. Who also drag their mothers! They are apparently spending a good bit more on the next film.)

That said, I have no real interest in reading the rest of the series.

[[deleted user]]

I def. think that the books are enjoyable (I enjoyed them), but the relationships are very unhealthy, and I think that Bella is a crap character,a text book definition Mary Sue.

The book sort of reminded me of all of the trashy romance novels my friends and I read when we were in high school. Esp. the ones that were borderline misogynistic with emotionally-mentally abusive male protagonists.

It does dishearten me when I see fourth or fifth grade girls and their parents in the library looking for Twilight. I think they are still too young in my heart of hearts, but it is up to the parents. I think if my hypothetical too young daughter wanted to read it, I wouldn't tell her that she couldn't read it (no censorship!) I would read it with her and discuss it with her and use it as a platform to talk about abusive and unhealthy relationships, esp. since a lot of young girls and teens struggle with unhealthy or abusive relationships.

This book is better suited to high school age teens, who are a bit more mature.

All in all, anything that gets people excited about reading is awesome in my book. If anything, I think the negative aspects of the book are a great way to have some enlightening conversations with our youth...

[WhatShouldIRead]

I finished Twilight and am towards the beginning of New Moon. To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure what all the hype is about.

I don't enjoy reading about clueless people and I'm afraid that is the way I feel about Bella. I don't think Edward (from what I've read so far) is possessive in a completely bad way, I just think he's trying to keep Bella safe and she seems to make many bad decisions.

So far in the second, I've gotten pretty fed up with Bella's death wish and more bad decisions. I'll continue reading but right now I've picked up another book as I just needed a break from her.

[Emma]

Sara, I agree with you absolutely.

Frankly, I think it depends on the child's maturity, but no matter what age, parents should talk to their kid about unhealthy relationships. Hot wiring your girlfriend's car is NOT okay. Neither is threatening to kill yourself if your friend doesn't kiss you.

[Emma]

Um...I was searching on fanfiction like Sara said and came across this...

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5121761/1...

At first I thought this was someone who was writing about the unhealthy relationship between Bella and Edward...but then I looked at the end and they were being SERIOUS.

This is very disturbing. I don't know how old this person is, but their ideas are very mixed up. Abusive relationships are NOT okay. Apparently this Twifan doesn't understand this.

*bangs head against the wall*

[Emma]

Some of these descriptions are scaring me. I do not get this at all. A lot of them are about Bella being submissive and Edward dominating. *continues to bang head against the wall* Screw Twilight fan fic, I'm going back to searching for HP!

[Gina]

omg I am glad I am not the only one who though Edward was abusive!

[Gina]

I mean they even say in Eclipse that Jacob and Bella's relationship would be much healthier. Edward is her 'drug'.

[April]

I'm totally Team Jacob lol. To me, that is a relationship which would have made sense. It had a solid foundation, their attraction to each other was based on concrete things and shared interests. To me, that is how a successful relationship works.

[WhatShouldIRead]

I agree April. From what I've read so far about Jacob, I really like the character.

[Sara ♥]

You'd be surprised how many people HATE Jacob's guts. I think it's so sad! (They're the ones who have been smoking Edward drugs... ;) )

[[deleted user]]

I like Jacob in the books, but I didn't like his character in the movie. Since I saw the movie, I keep comparing other actors to him and saying this actor would make a much better Jacob!!

[Kandice]

That's too bad, because I thought Lautner was perfect. Well, the hair was terrible, but in the stills for New Moon, I think Lautner makes the perfect Jacob.

Who do you think would be better?

[Allison]

yeah, I have a lot of respect for Lautner now, after working so incredibly hard to "beef up" to be his gorgeous werewolfey self for New Moon.

[WhatShouldIRead]

This is neither here nor there - Allison, I love your little 'Wishbone' picture! That dog was so cute. I enjoyed watching the show.

[Allison]

aww thanks :) I loved it too!

And my dog is a Jack Russell terrier just like him, so the pic reminds me of her too.

[[deleted user]]

Kandice wrote: "That's too bad, because I thought Lautner was perfect. Well, the hair was terrible, but in the stills for New Moon, I think Lautner makes the perfect Jacob.

Who do you think would be better?"

I haven't seen any name actors who would be good. It's usually just someone on a comercial or no-name actors in movies and TV shows... Next time I see someone, I will write down the movie/show name so I can IMDB them.

[Sara ♥]

Before Twilight was cast, we all really wanted Steven Strait to be Jacob...

[Jessika]

I loved Jacob. As much as I enjoyed the books, I always shied away from Edward. I mean, I fell in love with him in the first book, but after that, Bella made it loud and clear that Edward was hers. I think the first person point of view is what made me not much of an Edward fan. It's like one of your friends telling you a story about their boyfriend...you wouldn't fall in love with him, would you? I dunno--maybe I'm just being completely weird.

I can't wait to see New Moon, just for Jacob. I wish he wasn't so young. I wouldn't feel like such a creeper when I drool over him. (I'm 19 and have a younger brother Taylor's age...it freaks me out when I think that I'm attracted to someone my brother's age...EW!)

[Becky]

I definitely thought that the relationship was unhealthy. "Abusive" isn't the right word, maybe, because Edward wasn't trying to control Bella just to do it, or because of his own insecurities, or jealousies or whatever. He was trying to keep her safe.

But be that as it may, he DID control her in the first book, and that is not healthy for any relationship, so I was thrilled when that dynamic changed in the later books.

[ஐAndreaஐ]

I think the whole "abusive" issue is totally off.

Edward knew he was bad for Bella, he tried to stay away from her, warned her that he was all wrong for her . . . Every time he "controlled" her, he was trying to protect her. Not from high school issues like some other boy trying to get at her, but from other VAMPIRES & WEREWOLFS.

Edward would have been completely willing to step aside if Jacob made her happy. All he wanted was for her to be happy & safe.

I think Bella's character made the whole "abusive" thing easier to swallow, but it was just who her character is, quiet, non-confrontational, fidgety, clumsy. . . not confident and outspoken.

For me it was a love story, Edward & Bella are ment for eachother. Bella was always ordinary, but when she became a vampire she was Extraordinary like it was always ment to be. Perfect.

[Gina]

Andrea that is one thing that really bothered me about the books. Bella always felt plane and clearly she wasn't (I mean all guy guys in the book are after her). She was special but she was always so negative about herself. She always felt like she had to change to be good enough for Edward. That part really bothered me

[ஐAndreaஐ]

Hey Gina,

Well most of the guys were just after her for the novelty. Those guys have been looking at the same girls their whole lives, this girl was new and from a big city, exciting. But Edward fell for her for who she is.

Bella was insecure becuse she never saw anything special in herself. Com'on how many people feel the same way? She's smart, plain, clumsy and average. But she is also very caring, loyal, curious, determined a natural care taker and problem solver. . . most mother's are the same way.

Plus, she's a teenage. Not many teens have confidence of who they are and make the right decisions. It's all part of self discovery.





wrote: "Andrea that is one thing that really bothered me about the books. Bella always felt plane and clearly she wasn't (I mean all guy guys in the book are after her). She was special but she was always ..."

[Sara ♥]

Gina wrote: "She always felt like she had to change to be good enough for Edward."

That is a touchy issue there. But I don't think many human girls would feel good enough for Edward. I mean, he's not only ridiculously good-looking (because he's a vampire), but he's also extremely smart and talented (also a result of being a vampire--not that he wasn't smart or talented before, but he's had so much time to practice piano, learn languages, etc. AND a perfect vampire memory to help out with his endeavors).

I think it would be extremely arrogant for any human teenager to think they were on the same level as THAT...

BUT I don't think she felt she needed to change WHO SHE WAS--her personality, interests, moral standards, belief system, etc.--to be with Edward. But she also knew that in order to really BE with him, it just didn't make SENSE for her to stay human. They were pretty much incompatible that way--two different species.

If Edward was a bird and Bella was a fish and they fell in love and wanted to be together, either Edward has to learn how to swim and breathe under water, or Bella has to grow wings and lungs that process air. Edward COULDN'T become human again (though if it had been possible, I believe he would have done it in a millisecond to be with her), so Bella had to become a vampire. It just doesn't make sense any other way.

----

Gina wrote: "Bella always felt plane and clearly she wasn't (I mean all guy guys in the book are after her). She was special but she was always so negative about herself."

I agree that Bella was negative about herself. (Most women are, if you're honest about it...) She DID always feel plain. Stephenie has said that in Phoenix (where Bella is from), it's like the land of the gorgeous people. Her high school was pretty ritzy... everyone was rich and tan and beautiful and drove really nice cars. So compared to the people around her, she was maybe a 5 on a scale from 1 to 10. In Forks, the people are just normal people. So compared to those people, she was more of an 8 or 8.5 on a scale from 1 to 10. But, having spent most of her life as a 5, she still felt like a 5 in Forks. It's hard to overcome something that's been ingrained in you your entire life, after all.

Also, the things that really made her special--her maturity, generosity, compassion, selflessness... Sorry, but those aren't really qualities that a lot of teenagers truly appreciate yet, you know? They're not qualities that are really obvious (like sporting ability, charisma, bubbliness, etc.)--you'd have to spend time getting to know Bella before you realize that she's a truly great person. And I'm not talking about realizing that she's nice. She's nice to everyone, so everyone knows she's a nice girl. I mean realizing that she has first-rate qualities about her that make her a really superior person. Sorry, but most teenagers are too superficial to take that time (they're too worried about themselves). For the first 16 years of her life, Bella never had any really good friends who pointed out to her how great she was. Wouldn't you feel unattractive and boring, too, under those circumstances?

[Emma]

Here are my problems with Edward:

-He's perfect. Perfect is dull. Sure, he LOOKS like the perfect boyfriend/husband on the outside, but how endearing can someone be without flaws?

-Bella and himself are NOT EQUALS. Even at the end of Breaking Dawn they are not equals. Bella may be a compassionate and mature person, but lets face it, she's not very sure of herself. Not to mention that there is about an 80 year difference between them. Edward will always try to protect Bella, and maybe not even at appropriate times. Because of the way Edward is, always dominating, and how Bella is, always submissive, they will never truly be equals. This is one of my biggest problems with the relationship.

If teenagers don't value Bella's qualities, and she's not sure of who she is, THEN WHY IS SHE GETTING INTO A RELATIONSHIP? *huffs*

[ஐAndreaஐ]

(G)Emma wrote: "Here are my problems with Edward:

-He's perfect. Perfect is dull. Sure, he LOOKS like the perfect boyfriend/husband on the outside, but how endearing can someone be without flaws?

-Bella and him..."

Dude, really? How is Bella ALWAYS submissive? She never does what anyone asks her to do, she doesn't listen to what she's told. I don't get it, why do people keep saying that?

Bella has wonderful core values, she is strong minded and knows what she wants.

Who is ever equal ever, everyone has different life experiences, different preferences, grows up in difference places and is subject to a different things growing up. Yes they are a different age, but honestly I don't think that I've ever dated anyone who was exactly my age either.

As for that last line "THEN WHY IS SHE IN A RELATIONSHIT" Are you kidding me??? Every day I discover more of myself. You grow, you learn and you do this with every new experience in life. You don't fall in love when you decide that you know enough about yourself or because you appriciate yourself enough?!?!

[Sara ♥]

I'm with Andrea on this one. Ditto what she said.

They are QUITE far apart in ages, of course, but time will balance that out eventually. When he's 300 and she's 220, will it really matter then? ;)

But it's that last sentence of Andrea's comment that really strikes a chord with me. I was 19 when I got married 6 years ago. Did I know enough about myself? Unlikely. Did I appreciate myself enough? Who knows? Was I completely sure of myself? Heck no. Would I do it any differently? Absolutely not.

You can learn and grow by yourself to your heart's content, but there are just some things you'll NEVER learn about yourself until you're stuck with someone else... We don't have any kids yet, but I believe there are things you'll never learn about yourself until you have little kids who depend on your for everything... who try your patience more than even your husband does... ;)

But I agree with Andrea--Bella's a strong-minded girl who knows exactly what she wants. She's non-confrontational, in general, but she sure as heck confronts Edward when she needs to.

[Lori]

Has anyone read the few chapters of Midnight Sun on Stephanie Meyers website? I think when you read that you understand edward more. In twilight Edward does seem a little possessive but once you read it from Edwards point of view it makes more sense. Edward just wants to keep her safe and tries very hard to stay away from her, but he falls in love with her and gives in. I agree with ya'll Bella would never let Edward control her (and Edward would not want to control just keep her safe) I like how they talk things out in the book.

I dont think they're relationship is unhealthy, I do however think 12 year olds shouldnt read it because they can get caught up in the whole "fairy tale" love. But I think if someone that young is going to be reading a love story book then they should have an adult to talk about it with. Discuss whats realty and what is fun fiction. YA books are getting more and more less YA. Most of the YA should be read by more mature girls, and if someone is mature enough they know whats real and what is just a really good get-lost-in-the-moment read.

[April]

Yes, doing suicidal things so you can hear your ex-boyfriend lecture you in your imagination certainly strikes me as being healthy.

“’You’re taking me to the prom!’ I yelled…He wasn’t expecting the force of my reaction, that was clear. He pressed his lips together and his eyes narrowed. ‘Don’t be difficult, Bella’”(Meyers, Twilight, 484). Edward forces Bella to go to the prom despite the fact that the idea of prom makes her extremely uncomfortable. The message one can take from this event is Edward has better faculties for judgment than Bella, as he is doing what he assumes to be in her best interest. By doing this, Edward invalidates Bella’s opinions and thoughts. He removes her decision-making power. This event places male and female into a binary structure where the men are portrayed as wise and dominate and women are portrayed as ignorant and submissive. Hence patriarchy is continually reinforced. Meyers romanticizes the fact that Edward is a controlling individual. Although Edward is taking Bella to the prom, a traditional teen-rite of passage, it remains he brings her to prom against her will.

Throughout the Twilight series, Bella consistently is placed within a domestic role. She is portrayed as homemaker, cook, and mother. Essentially Bella is the millennial version of the 1950s housewife. “Last night I’d discovered that Charlie couldn’t cook much besides fried eggs and bacon. So I requested that I be assigned kitchen detail for the duration of my stay” (Meyers, Twilight, 31). By looking at this occurrence within the book, an interesting gender dynamic is presented. One has the example of Charlie, who is a middle –aged man who has been living on his own for at least ten years who cannot boil water. Charlie reinforces the gender norm of men not belonging in the kitchen. The notion espoused is men should not be in possession of domestic skills or else men risk becoming feminine and according to the male-female binary, weak. In contrast is Bella, the submissive homemaker who feels it is her duty to cook for her father. In acquiescing to domesticity, Bella’s assistance in caretaking is devalued. “Because patriarchy is male-identified and male-centered women and the work they do tends to be devalued, if not made invisible.” (Johnson, 15)



Sources:
Johnson, Allan. “Patriarchy.” Race, Class, and Gender in the United States: An Integrated Study. Ed. Rothenberg, Paula S. New York: St. Martin's Press, 1992.
Meyer, Stephenie. Twilight. New York: Little, Brown and Co, 2005.

[Becky]

Twilight and New Moon are definitely not prime examples of How To Have a Healthy Relationship. Haha! But I will say that having noted all the things that you mentioned, I appreciated it all the more when Edward's outlook changed in later books. (NOT that I think that condones his previous behavior, by any stretch...)

You (and your sources) are right in showing that Twilight depicts a very one-sided relationship, and that that is very romanticized and glamorized. It's certainly not what I would want any teen or tween to base their ideas of "love" on, but at the same time, I don't think it should be censored. I think that parents should use it as an opportunity to explain what is healthy and unhealthy, etc.

I did enjoy these books, for all their faults. But it's easy for me to take something as unrealistic as this with a grain of salt as a 27 year old. Had this been a regular girl and boy though, with no supernatural elements to the story, I'd have probably hated it if it ended the same way this did.

[April]

Becky, I am definately anti-censorship. I think there are definately two sides of the coin with Twilight.
Yes it is fun escapism, but at the same time, it has it's problems. I like that it is getting teenage girls to read and hopefully, to check out other books.
I don't agree with all of the messages preached by the book, but I would never ever try to pry this book out of the hands of a teenage girl or discourage the girl from reading. I guess I just really enjoy looking at things from a feminist perspective since taking a gender studies class. Just a quick disclaimer, I'm not trying to push anyone's buttons, I just enjoy a good discourse now and then.

[ஐAndreaஐ]

OK, so yeah I totally get your point but really? Don't you think it all goes to far, as a woman we always want the men to make the first move, ask you out, make the romantic gesture. . . whatever. But then at the same time if a man takes any control he's taking away something or devaluing you? I think that the portrail of Edward was that he was from a different time, that's the way men acted. . . if Edward acted like men today spending more time on his hair, clothes and accessories then most girls do. . . then what? Back in the day, men were men plain and simple. They held doors, did the heavy lifting and would lay down their jacket's, in my opinion that's very romantic.

I'm not saying that teen girls should try to be like Bella and seek out their Edward, but, everyone is different. Some people (men & woman) have it in their nature to be domestic, men are chef's and designers. Woman are police officer's & construction worker's. Why would anyone have to make either of these sex based? And why would Stephanie Meyer's have to focus on not pissing off the "feminists" just to get her story accross? In some relationships men are dominate and in other's the woman is the dominate one.

But in all reality it's just a story. A really good story at that. I completely got a feel for each character and thought that Stephanie did a great job! As Bella being more old fashion and domestic, a man with old fashion morals worked best for her. But I don't paint Bella as a victim in any way. She was strong. She had full power to walk away from the prom, Edward didn't drag her by her hair. . .

I've made my boyfriends do things they didn't want to do, either because I know they'd enjoy it or because it was something they'd never do on their own. I don't think I controlled them, just pursuaded. . . :) There's always give and take and there are always two sides. Try to see both. You can always find faults in something when you take apart every little detail.

It's just a story, so chill out :)

[April]

Andrea, do you know what literary theory and criticism is by any chance? Here is a site which breaks it down: http://www.kristisiegel.com/theory.htm

Actually, I don't think it goes too far. I think as a woman I can open my own door. I can lift my own boxes.

However, if we go along the back in the day line, men having feelings/crying was not acceptable and men who showed an inclination towards other men was not acceptable. Personally, I would rather have a boyfriend who feels it is okay to be himself and to cry in front of me, not one who feels the need to subscribe to outdated notions of gender normalization.

Also, post 195 I acquiesed and said there were two sides to the coin. I do see the other side, but I prefer/am more inclined to discourse on the con side. I mean, we are mature adults having a discussion, which means people are going to disagree with you. I understand perfectly well that people disagree with me, I accept that, and I understand their points, but at the same time, I'm going to present my case because I believe it has validity as well.

[Emma]

Okay, for the relationship thing...

What I meant wasn't why is she in a relationship, but why is she in a relationship where you not only commit yourself to another, but CHANGE yourself for them drastically so you can be for them for all of eternity, and yet you don't even know yourself. I know you discover yourself more each day, but if you're so dependent on a relationship that you attempt to kill yourself, how strong in yourself are you?

Andrea, while I see your opinion, your attitude on it's just a story is bothering me.

While, just it is just a story, and I'm pleased to see that I haven't seen anyone in this group who sees it as more, there are people who adore this series and pour their heart into it. The Gemma Doyle Trilogy is my thing, and how Gemma is and the messages the trilogy reveals really matter to me. If Meyer is writing about an unhealthy relationship and some teens think that having something like Bella and Edward have will make all their dreams come true, these teens will believe in relationships that are unequal.

And why should any one person dominate a relationship? Why can't they be equal?

[ஐAndreaஐ]

April,

Nope, what I'm saying is it's a different world today. Full of different people and not everyone fits into the same tiny little box. I'm really good friends with the guys who spend more time on their hair and shoes, but I don't usually date that type of guy. Personal preference. There's no right or wrong there just is.

I can open my own door and lift my own boxes. But simple gestures are very nice.

I've always been a strong woman who stands up for herself, but I won't be stuck in any specific category. As a woman I have the right to be and feel anyway at anytime. I can be all things at once weak, strong, stubborn, and a pushover on any given day at any given time. Always endless possibilities.

So, feministic views and looking for the weak points might be right for you, but I just like to get lost in a good story and take it for what it is. . . easy going. . . why so serious? Is this a class for you?

[ஐAndreaஐ]

(G)Emma wrote: "Okay, for the relationship thing...

What I meant wasn't why is she in a relationship, but why is she in a relationship where you not only commit yourself to another, but CHANGE yourself for them d..."

hmmmm, my additude? well I think there is always give and take. One person is a better cook and the other is better at money management. No relationship is the same. One person can better verbalize how they feel while another is better at showing their feelings. Just like friendships. . . Aren't some of your friends better at things your not? You don't look at them as more or less then you and they don't either. . . just different.

Yes, I can see where teens are so wrapped into the story that they might think that it is acceptable for someone to tell them what to do. But if a person get's that from the story and thinks it's acceptable because it happened in a story, then they are probably already weak minded to accept that anyway.

I'm just saying big world, endless possibilites, keep your mind open. Your always learning something new. I wouldn't even think of dating the same type of guy I dated 5 years ago, you live and learn.

[April]

Well, that is what a discussion is, taking sides and discussing them in a mature fashion, which I feel we have been both doing. I hope you don't feel that I am attacking you, rather, I enjoy reading the other side.

Honestly, I think asking me if this is a class for me is crossing the line into insult territory and I don't appreciate it at all. I like to use my education outside the classroom. Just because I like to include sources and have a well-thought out argument does not mean I am in a class. To me, that is a disparaging remark, and basically makes me feel like my opinions aren't valid.

[Emma]

Thank you for making me understand. I just got a different idea when you said one person dominates. Thanks. :)

[April]

IDK, maybe because this is online I'm missing the subtle nuances of language and taking things out of context. :-(

[ஐAndreaஐ]

I did not mean to insult you. Just understand where your coming from. Everyone is different, and has a different way of looking at things. This is always a good thing, it would be totally boring if everyone was the same.

I always enjoy hearing what other people have to say and why they feel the way they do. Sometimes, people actually change my mind. But since I'm pretty stubborn by nature that doesn't happen too often.

In my opinion no one ever makes you feel anything. That power is all your own, it's just where you take it.

Again, I did not mean to insult.

[April]

True, I definately do believe that everyone is different, and I know a lot of the time I can come across as a bitch when I am arguing a certain point. I'm really not. I'm actually a very open-minded person, and I do tend to forget certain things don't come across online as they do in real life. So again I am sorry if I did make any body feel attacked by my posts, that was not my intention at all.

[ஐAndreaஐ]

Thank you, I also really like the Gemma Doyle Trilogy. It's great to see a see a woman's strength, we don't get to see enough of it.

Thanks ladies, I really enjoyed our discussions. It's so refreshing to get differen perspectives and even more so to see that even though they are different, sometimes they are very much the same.

[Emma]

I completely agree Andrea. :)