Wild Things: YA Grown-Up discussion
Romance
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Twilight series
I think that making a whole group about hating a person/book is a bit excessive and can be construed as bashing. Like I said before, there are ways to let your feelings about something be known without seeming ignorant and disrespectful. And those types of groups seem to do both things.
I'm the same way... I have deep issues with Twilight because of the effects they could have on the youngest girls who read them, and that's why I talk about them. If it weren't for them and what they're looking for because of the series, I wouldn't care about them, I'd just kind of move on. I am having trouble moving on from it in this light.Plus, there are so many other books that are way better for the same reasons some people have cited here.
Well, I love the books. I agree that they could have a negative affect on young girls if they are left to believe that a Bella/Edward relationship was healthy. That's why I think parents need to make sure and know what their kids are reading--so they can discuss issues like that with them!I'd be interested to know what those books are that you WOULD recommend...
Definitely Sunshine by Robin McKinley (though it's technically in the adult section). I also like Silver Kiss by Annette Kurtis Klause, and she has another book about werewolves that I liked better called Blood and Chocolate. Peeps was also really great, and for quick reads I like Amelia Atwater-Rhodes' stuff (though the first one is the best in my opinion, I didn't really like the later ones). Some of these don't have the romance though.
I'm glad you mentioned Peeps. I just bought it and can't wait to start.
I REALLY liked Blood and Chocolate... A LOT.
Yay! Yeah, Peeps is really good Kandice, a VERY different take on vampirism. But just be warned, the sequel is not so great. I was super annoyed by the teenagers that were the main characters.
A huge thank you to Tahleen for mentioning Sunshine. I have been trying to think of the name of that book for almost a week LOL
Wanted to share this with everyone:http://www.gaiaonline.com/forum/recyc...
I think she makes some excellent points about Edward. But you could understand why he IS so controlling as well. He's had no partner before Bella, and he's stuck in eternity as a vampire, something that doesn't have a soul in his opinion. I understand why he is clinging on to Bella, but I wish Meyer hadn't made the relationship seem healthy. Or TRIED to make it seem healthy.
Haha you're welcome Renee!And (G)Emma, thanks for that link. I agree that Meyer shouldn't have tried to make their relationship seem healthy; it's not. I don't think that him having a good reason for being abusive is enough to justify it, though, but I don't think that's what you're saying.
Oh, you disagree? I'd like to hear your opinion, Sara. :)
I don't think he was abusive. We're talking about Edward, right? He definitely "stalked" her, but he IS a hunter. He was controlling, and that isn't really acceptable, but I don't recall any abuse. Physical, verbal or otherwise.
Kandice wrote: "I don't think he was abusive. We're talking about Edward, right? He definitely "stalked" her, but he IS a hunter. He was controlling, and that isn't really acceptable, but I don't recall any abuse...."I agree.
Kandice, did you read New Moon and/or Eclipse? I think in those books there were signs of abusive behavior. I think what bugged me the most was in Eclipse when he hot wired Bella's car so she couldn't go to Jacob's.
(G)Emma wrote: "Kandice, did you read New Moon and/or Eclipse? I think in those books there were signs of abusive behavior. I think what bugged me the most was in Eclipse when he hot wired Bella's car so she could..."that wasn't really abuse though, just uber controlling behavior.
I guess it just depends how you define abuse though, whatever it is...we can all agree Edward had a few ISSUES...
Hmmm...that is true. I guess I would just define his control over her as abuse. I might be wrong about this, though.
(G)Emma wrote: "Hmmm...that is true. I guess I would just define his control over her as abuse. I might be wrong about this, though."No I think you are right...at least in a way. I mean, abuse can probably be defined a TON of different ways, and controlling behavior might as well be one of them :)
I think over a period of time you would define it as abuse.
(G)Emma wrote: "I think over a period of time you would define it as abuse. "especially if the girl has a backbone and fights back more...very unlike Bella.
hehe.(course, that being said, I loved the whole series like the brain crack it is :)
Hahaha. It certainly is addictive. I will give it that.
I liked the Host (not YA of course) much better.
My mother read that and said she really enjoyed it. It sounded pretty interesting. I'm planning to read it.
(G)Emma wrote: "My mother read that and said she really enjoyed it. It sounded pretty interesting. I'm planning to read it."
I really want to read The Host also.
I really want to read The Host also.
I still think his controlling behaviour isn't abuse, but think it's a case of tomato/tomaaato. Allison is right. Bella had no backbone, so really, she and Edward were a perfect match. Anyone else would have tossed him out on his ear. (probably ended up dinner, too!LOL)
(probably ended up dinner, too!LOL)LMAO....good one Kandice.
I think it's abuse. Controlling behavior and physically handling a person, even if it's not beating, is abuse in my opinion.
The fact that Bella was in danger throughout the series played a big role in Edward's controlling behavior. Also, this is a fantasy - the characters were dealing with issues that we shouldn't/couldn't be able to understand.
Jamie wrote: "The fact that Bella was in danger throughout the series played a big role in Edward's controlling behavior. Also, this is a fantasy - the characters were dealing with issues that we shouldn't/could..."I agree. That's what I was trying to get at with the hunter/predator remark. This is a make believe story, There are no real angsty, gorgeous, diamond skinned vampire's, so we don't know how they would/could/should act. In the world Meyer created Edward was not meant to appear abusive, but protective.
As far as her portrayal of their relationship as healthy, that just doesn't enter the equation. Again, there are NO vampires, so you could never have a relationship with one, healthy or not. If a girl is too young to understand this is fantasy, she will also be too young not to want to similate their feelings for each other. That's where the trouble begins.
“There was a faint shadow across one of my cheekbones, and my lips were a little swollen, but other than that, my face was fine. The rest of me was decorated with patches of blue and purple. I concentrated on the bruises that would be the hardest to hide – my arms and my shoulders” (Meyers, Breaking Dawn, 95). I understand this is taken out of context, but to me that is disturbing. To me it sends the message that if he bruises you during sex, it's because he's too strong and just can't help himself, so forgive him. I understand it's supernatural and all, but nonetheless it just bothers me.
I'm not trying to offend anyone, I think you all make valid points and certainly we all have our opinions on these books. For good or for bad, I think they are here to stay. There is some good, as they do get female reluctant readers reading.
In the article GEmma posted it has some great point/counterpoints about it being fantasy. To me, it doesn't matter that this is a vampire or not, it's still an idealized relationship and girls aren't going to care if he's a vampire. They're going to look for that in relationships if they hold it to be the ideal. I know some girls have said that they wish their boyfriends were more like Edward, and that really bothers me.
Kandice wrote: "I agree. That's what I was trying to get at with the hunter/predator remark. This is a make believe story, There are no real angsty, gorgeous, diamond skinned vampire's, so we don't know how they would/could/should act. In the world Meyer created Edward was not meant to appear abusive, but protective.As far as her portrayal of their relationship as healthy, that just doesn't enter the equation. Again, there are NO vampires, so you could never have a relationship with one, healthy or not. If a girl is too young to understand this is fantasy, she will also be too young not to want to similate their feelings for each other. That's where the trouble begins. "
I feel the same way. While I really enjoyed the series, I know that none of my kids are ready for it. With YA books in general, though, it can be really difficult to determine what is appropriate for them or not.
Tahleen wrote: "I think it's abuse. Controlling behavior and physically handling a person, even if it's not beating, is abuse in my opinion."Yeah, I agree with this, too. Sure, controlling behavior is not physical abuse, but I'm pretty sure it's the gate way to more abuse. At first, he's only a bit controlling, then he's too jealous, next thing you know he's beating you up. Or at least that's how it is in every single Lifetime movie I've seen.
Well there is emotional abuse...Oh, Lifetime movies, my sister LOVES them, but I can barely sit through the cheating bastard part before I feel the itch to switch to some trashy reality TV.
Yeah, I was very into them in high school. If I didn't have anything to read during a rainy weekend, then just curling up in my bed watching a dramatic lifetime movie would be the way to relax. Now, of course, I find most of them cheesy.
Not have anything to read? What is that like? ;-)
April wrote: "“There was a faint shadow across one of my cheekbones, and my lips were a little swollen, but other than that, my face was fine. The rest of me was decorated with patches of blue and purple. I conc..."She ASKED for that... He didn't want to, for exactly that reason (and, you know, he thought he might kill her)... I'm just saying. And he was UBER-PISSED at himself afterward...
As for the abuse thing... *oye* I just keep shaking my head and rolling my eyes. I can't help it. Edward is the DEFINITION of controlling (he would drive me CRAZY (literally insane)), but his motivations are pure. And I would like to disagree with whoever said Bella doesn't have a backbone. I think she does. The problem is that she has a HUMAN backbone, and it just isn't strong enough to withstand the strength of a vampire.
Oye.
(G)Emma wrote: "Wanted to share this with everyone:http://www.gaiaonline.com/forum/recyc..."
Thank you SO much for posting that! It brings up every point clearly and concisely, with examples drawn from the books. And April, I would also like to read your paper.
I have to admit, I was kind of staying away from this thread because I thought it was going to be all Team Edward and I'm so over that. I should have known better. :) When I originally read the first three books, I was drawn in. If nothing else, they are compelling, and they catch you up emotionally. (I was thoroughly stressed out during New Moon, and had to put the book down at one point.) I always found Bella annoying, and I didn't think Meyer was a great writer, but after reading Eclipse I really started to look at the relationships differently. (For the record, I haven't been able to bring myself to read Breaking Dawn.) I think GEmma's link pretty much sums up how I feel about Edward and Bella's relationship. It's not healthy, and to girls it is presenting an idealized view of a dangerous relationship. In my graphic design class we talked about reversing the gender in print advertisements to see how the meaning changed. We can do that here as well, or we can just apply the actions to everyday life. If your friend said her boyfriend removed the engine from her car to prevent her from visiting someone, you'd call the cops. Obviously I understand that the book is fantasy, and therefore not "everyday life" because Edward is a vampire. But as an example for young girls, who romanticize him as "the perfect man," he is not distinguished as the undead. (Although I also think Bella is an idiot. If she were the man in this situation, no one would like her. They'd tell her to grow a pair. And fewer people would think a controlling, abusive vampire woman was awesome. She'd just be a stalker. Case in point: Victoria. Is she so different from Edward?)
Sara TX wrote: "April wrote: "“There was a faint shadow across one of my cheekbones, and my lips were a little swollen, but other than that, my face was fine. The rest of me was decorated with patches of blue and ..."Excellent point! I'm just saying when you take it way out of context, it can come across that way.
A lot of things can come across badly when taken out of context... That's why I'm skeptical when I hear a person quoted as saying something "off"... Nine times out of ten, it was PROBABLY taken out of context...
Sara TX wrote: "April wrote: "“There was a faint shadow across one of my cheekbones, and my lips were a little swollen, but other than that, my face was fine. The rest of me was decorated with patches of blue and ..."I'm sorry, I have to say something about this. I know what you mean, but really, take a step back and look at what this says. You're saying it's okay to blame a bruised and battered girl for her own injuries. Even if it wasn't intentional, and even if Edward's intentions were good, that doesn't change the results. Plus Meyer is saying it's okay to be bruised during sex as long as you're married and you love the person. Edward might have been angry at himself afterward, but that doesn't change the fact that he did it anyway despite his original misgivings.
I also don't think Bella has much of her own personality either. She defines herself by her relationship with Edward and revolves her life around him. Not good.
Wild Things: YA Grown-Up
Books mentioned in this topic
The Short Second Life of Bree Tanner (other topics)Midnight Sun [2008 Draft] (other topics)
Nightlight: A Parody (other topics)
The Host (other topics)
Graceling (other topics)
I do have to agree with you on one thing though Sara to creat a whole forum about hating a book too me just seems like a bashing session. I only mentioned it because someone had said they felt like they were odd becasue they didnt care for the book. I was trying to illustrate that there were others