Wild Things: YA Grown-Up discussion
Romance
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Twilight series
message 101:
by
Alisha Marie
(new)
May 07, 2009 12:23PM
Tahleen, it's creepy. It's like we share a brain. I agree completely with everything you just said (or wrote, rather). Bella's whole life is about Edward. And the whole bruised during sex thing is terrible regardless of how bad he felt afterward. It's (in my opinion, of course) a bit like what psychologists call "the honeymoon phase" in an abusive relationship. He's sweet, then controlling, then jealous, then abusive, then when he sees what he's done, he's all flowers and apologies. That's usually why most women stay in abusive relationships: because when it's good, it's fantastic. Or at least that's what I think.
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Alisha, I'm glad you agree; and I agree with what you just wrote too.
Oye all you want Sara :) That's just how I feel!
I feel like if I disagree with you that I'll be saying it's okay for a husband to bruise his wife during sex. I'm sure (fictional) Edward was as careful as vampirically possibly during sex... The problem was that Edward was a vampire and Bella was a human.Alisha wrote: "He's sweet, then controlling, then jealous, then abusive, then when he sees what he's done, he's all flowers and apologies."
That does NOT describe Edward (except for the controlling part... and some of the jealousy). The bruising would NOT have happened had he been a human or she a vampire. It was a result of their difference in species (or state of life? living vs. undead...), not a result of a conscious (or even unconscious) choice that Edward made to physically hurt his wife.
To be a little more specific and blunt: If Bella had given some indication of being in pain during "the incident", I have NO DOUBT that Edward would have ceased and desisted. But she didn't. Bruises don't show up immediately, so without Bella saying anything, or even making a face, Edward couldn't have known during "the event". And, not only does Bella not say anything, but she indicates the next morning that she wasn't just "suffering through"... She goes on about how great she feels and how amazing and perfect it was, and she, herself, didn't even realize she was injured at all until she looked down at her body. AND, she wants to do it again!
Yes, it was a bit disturbing, especially for the younger audiences.... But Stephenie warned about that beforehand, AND parents should know what their kids are reading, and help them choose "appropriate" reading material. This one should NOT have been classified as YA.
PS - Stephenie is NOT saying that it's okay for a husband to bruise his wife during sex. Oh my goodness... I want to call my friend and have her call Stephenie and have her comment on this... She'd die if she knew people thought that.
THIS I agree with. It definitely should not have been classified as YA. Though two more things: Where did Meyer warn anyone about this? And parents may be trying to manage what their kids are reading, but this has become such a phenomenon that girls are lying to their parents and hiding their copies that they get from the library or borrow from their friends if they're not allowed to read it.
If girls are lying to and hiding their copies from their parents, that's a completely different issue, in my opinion....I swear she said something, because I knew to expect a more adult book... But then, I've been a fan for a while and have a lot of info from other sources as well, so it may not have been directly from her.
Yeah, I remember being shocked after I read Breaking Dawn about how adult it was. Maybe I just missed it, but I know I wasn't the only one who was completely taken aback.
You thinking that the whole "honeymoon phase" not describing Edward is your opinion. Like I wrote before, controlling behavior IS how abuse starts. So, a lot of people may not deem controlling behavior as "abuse", but I do, regardless of whether or not the abuse was physical. A lot of young girls view the whole Bella/Edward relationship as "ideal". They want their own Edward. I'm interpreting that as they want their own brooding, good-looking, yet controlling and lurking boyfriend.I also agree that this should not have been classified as YA. And I also don't think it's fair to lump it all on the parents. Yes, parents should read what their kids are reading to see if it's appropriate, but a lot of the parents are under the (slightly misguided) opinion that if it's YA, then it's appropriate for all young adults, but it's not. And I agree with Tahleen that since now this is a phenomenon it's going to be THAT much harder to reign in the young girls who believe that their relationships should be exactly like Edward and Bella's. Sure, it's fantasy and should have absolutely no basis whatsoever in how you live your life in the "real world", but these are young girls, most who don't see it as vampire/human love, but love POINT. A love that I believe is far from pure.
Good point, Fiona. She actually didn't write the book for anyone except for herself. She had a dream (Chapter 13 (the meadow scene) in Twilight), and wrote it down, then just kept on writing... then went back and wrote the beginning--just for herself. She let her sister read it, and she loved it. She wrote the original sequel (Forever Dawn) for her sister and gave it to her for her birthday. Breaking Dawn is a revised version of that original sequel, which was also an adult book (this, Stephenie DID explain in her FAQ). Her sister talked her into getting Twilight published in the first place.I assume that because the main character was a high schooler, they deemed it YA... I don't know if they would have kept that rating had they known what Forever Dawn contained...
Well, there's obviously a problem here, then. It's absolutely true that a parent can't (and SHOULDN'T) control all their child's decisions. (That's abuse, too, IMO.) I suppose, then, that if you have a child who has gone against your wishes and read the books even without permission, I HOPE you would be able to find out and then freely and openly discuss (or just tell them) how the books SHOULD be related to their personal life.... I.E. explain that the book is FICTION and that Edward's behavior is NOT okay in a real life boyfriend.Part of me wonders if we're underestimating teenaged girls.
I have to say, my first thought after reading the comments about abuse was that this was an overreaction. I say this because, even having been in an abusive relationship, this is not an issue that even came to my mind after reading the book. It seems like this is something that can become an issue if you make an issue out of it.I gave the series to a young girl, and as far as I know, as much as she loves Edward, she does not want an abusive real-life relationship. I have to agree with the person who said that his role is meant to be taken as protector, not abuser.
*nods* My best friend was in an abusive relationship as well, and I'm pretty sure she didn't feel that way about the books either, although she's a die-hard Jacob fan... ;)
I am NOT arguing, but debating. I want to make that clear:)I know this is a YA group, but also defined as mature, so I don't mean this to be shocking or offensive to anyone. If a married couple enjoy bondage of some sort, mutually, and bruising occurs, is that abuse? I think the bruises Bella received on her honeymoon fall more into that category. They were both aware of Edward's strength and her human fragility. In Bella's eyes, the bruises were acceptable. They were not abuse, just a consequence of sexual interaction with her husband.
I don't, personally, enjoy ANYTHING that resembles bondage, or "rough" play, but I know there are those that do. If a wife enjoys being paddled, and gets welts on her behind as a result of said paddling, has she been a victim of spousal abuse? I think not.
THAT is what I was going to say! I knew I forgot something! You said it much better than I would have though...I was thinking of women who claw... Or that episode of House where the husband and wife are role-playing with him as a burglar....
Wow, can't believe I've been staying away from this thread!*goes back to the beginning to catch up*
OK - my two cents? It doesn't matter whether Meyer meant for these books to be read by kids or not - the truth of the matter is, they ARE being read by kids.And this kind of goes back to my discussion with GEmma in the Looking for Alaska thread - young girls today want attention from guys, they want it desperately and they don't care what they have to do to get it. (My belief is that they are not getting the right kind of male attention in the home, so they crave it from outside.)
In my opinion, the teen/youth obsession with Edward is simply a manifestation of that. And I agree with some others (speaking as a parent of a teen girl) that it is NOT healthy for these young women to look at Edward as some kind of god. He is obsessive, he is controlling, but he is giving her attention. Lots of it. And that's what these girls want.
You already know I completely agree with you Laura. I just don't think it's Meyer's job as a writer, to portray a healthy relationship. I think someone has mentioned, this book completely opens the door to discuss with a young girl exactly what a good, healthy relationship SHOULD look like. Obviously NOT Edward and Bella's.I pre-read, or at least skim my children's reading choices. I wouldn't censor this book, but use it as a starting point for a great conversation with a young girl.
Well, I actually only picked up Twilight because my daughter picked it up (you know me). I actually did enjoy it, once I got into the story (couldn't put it down, book crack, like everyone else), but halfway thru the 2nd book I gave up the series. Too much drama, etc.
BUT, Ashley's friends - many of them - are WAY into this series (they're also HP addicts), and they are high school seniors, so they're old enough to separate healthy from unhealthy, but 11 year-olds??? Are you kidding me? Who lets their 11 year-old read this series?? Braver moms than me, that's for sure.
Unless they don't know. I should talk, reading Flowers in the Attic at the same age. BUT only because my mom had no CLUE.
Right, but I am a little twisted. LOL And trying to make sure my daughter doesn't turn out the same way!:)
I wouldn't let Darby read it, that's for sure, but I only read it to pre-read it for my goddaughter, (15 years old) and I approved. I know her parents, and know she would recognize it for what it was.
Come back, Sara, Alisha, everyone....we won't bite, I swear!(well the canary might nip your nose, but I'm holding her little orange toes)
I have her longest tail feather in my grasp, and Lord knows she does not want to lose that one!
Well, I guess now I know what I've been missing by not reading Breaking Dawn. Just to be sure I follow, is the issue now becoming the inclusion of sex in teen books?
Alexis, the issue is the portrayl of rough sex within Breaking Dawn.Yes, those are participating please stay in the discussion, it is getting good and I am really enjoying reading both sides of the "argument" and all of the points being raised.
Yeah, the glorification of the obsessive, controlling male.
Laura wrote: "Yeah, the glorification of the obsessive, controlling male."That I get.
April wrote: "Alexis, the issue is the portrayl of rough sex within Breaking Dawn."
I'm wondering if this is getting too spoilerific for me. I've already encountered a bunch. I might have to bow out. And since I haven't read Breaking Dawn, I don't think I can comment on it. I can only talk about how I interpreted the first three.
But I would like to find a way to post the pictures I took of this voting box at my library. It's in the YA section and kids wrote anti-Twilight sentiments all over it. Some are pretty hilarious, about sparkles and whatnot.
I've skimmed this conversation. Wow, 44 new posts! Okay, I do agree with the fact that Edward and Bella's relationship is different because he is a vampire, hell, I don't think he would have been so controlling if it wasn't for the fact that he's been without someone for so long. But their relationship is also controlling, on both sides, really. Sara, I disagree with you on the point that Bella has a human back bone that can't stand up to Edward's. Edward DOES clearly love her, she could most definitely take him down a peg or two when he needs it. Or tell him when he is going too far. Like he did in that scene in BD. Bella DID say it was fine, but that doesn't MEAN that it's fine. Any other girl would have been bothered by that. I found that a bit disturbing.
But this might be because I was angry that Meyer didn't give her readers a steamy sex scene. I was looking forward to that.
(G)Emma wrote: "But this might be because I was angry that Meyer didn't give her readers a steamy sex scene. I was looking forward to that."Honesty! :D
(G)Emma wrote: "I've skimmed this conversation. Wow, 44 new posts! Okay, I do agree with the fact that Edward and Bella's relationship is different because he is a vampire, hell, I don't think he would have been..."
GEMMA! Are you serious or joking?
Well, after three books of unfulfilled sexual tension, I see her point.
Hahha, I'm not joking. It was the ONE THING I was waiting on through reading the entire series. I didn't think it was possible to not have a decent sex scene in a vampire book. Didn't get it. That bugged me. I still carry this grudge.
OMG Gemma! Our sweet little Gemma....*shakes petals*
Mhm. This is true, though. And Alexis, thank you.
I was pretty surprised she was able to keep the steam out of their consumation as well. I can't say I was jonesing for it, but did think it was a given. Nope. Even with all the bruising, she kept it PG.
Laura wrote: "Come back, Sara, Alisha, everyone....we won't bite, I swear!"Hahaha! I left suddenly because it was 5:00, and I left work... haha! Don't tell my boss how much time I spend on here... EEK!
(G)Emma wrote: "But this might be because I was angry that Meyer didn't give her readers a steamy sex scene. I was looking forward to that. "That makes me laugh SO SO HARD!! I read romance novels, so I definitely thought it was tame... It's actually quite hilarious to me...
STORY TIME!
Okay, so Stephenie Meyer is Mormon. I'm Mormon. Lots of fans are Mormon. It's just funny because all (most of) the little Mormon fans are like, "OH MY GOSH! I can't believe Stephenie Meyer put sex in her book! I thought she was supposed to be a good Mormon woman!" *rolls her eyes* As though Mormons never have sex! Pre-marital sex is a VERY VERY HUGE NO-NO to us (and I because of that, a lot of times "SEX" becomes this big TABOO word...) But HELLO! Mormons are notorious for having HUGE families! Do I need to explain to you people where babies come from??? SEX. That's where. *rolls her eyes again at Mormon silliness*
Breaking Dawn was definitely a strong PG-13 (the book overall)... but it was also very "they went to the bedroom and....... *fade out... fade back in*..... they wake up the next morning", you know? It was no secret what was going on at all, but there was no ACTUAL detail. It was pretty tame, IMO.
And then there are the other people who are like, "OH MY GOSH! That was IT???!??!!!!???? I WANTED GOOOOORRRRRYYYY DETAILS!!! WTF, STEPHENIE??!!!??"
I thought that all things considered, she picked a good middle ground. Still not appropriate for 11-year-olds (but I think we've established that neither is the rest of the series), but not so graphic that the teen audience's parents would freak.... Well... not TOTALLY, anyway....... ;)
PS - If you REALLY want to read an Edward/Bella sex scene, there are PLENTY to choose from over on www.fanfiction.net !
Sara TX wrote: "Laura wrote: "Come back, Sara, Alisha, everyone....we won't bite, I swear!"Hahaha! I left suddenly because it was 5:00, and I left work... haha! Don't tell my boss how much time I spend on he..."
Yep, that was me, too. I left to work about a minute after I posted my last post and just got back about ten minutes ago.
I had to come back up to work to grab something. It's almost 10:30 pm.... I should REALLY go home and go to bed. I'm starting to get a migraine...
Yeah, I should go to bed, too. I've got to get up at the crack of dawn to go to a seminar at school. But I just can't seem to get off GoodReads. I swear it's worse than crack (but in a completely good way).
Alisha wrote: "Yeah, I should go to bed, too. I've got to get up at the crack of dawn to go to a seminar at school. But I just can't seem to get off GoodReads. I swear it's worse than crack (but in a completel..."It really has become like that. I think it's this group! (In a good way!) :)
I swear, you guys are cracking me up with the comments in this thread. I don't even care about the spoilers anymore. Just keep the laughs coming.
Gah, so many posts! I hate missing out *pouts*And I just want to make it clear I am not trying to offend anyone! I just feel very strongly about this.
And for the record I know some 10-year-olds who have read this... my evil little contribution for the past seven or eight hours I've missed.
I love reading this back and forth. I didn't realize that these were not originally intended for YA and it makes me feel a little better that the content was for an older, (hopefully) wiser audience.I found the "responsibility of the author" comment interesting. How is an author supposed to know who is picking up their books? Kids can wander into book stores and have access to any section, park themselves on the floor and read stuff that is or is not appropriate for their age. It's parents responsibility to teach their children to make good choices and to think through their choices.
I am haveing my 13-yr-old step daughter wait a couple years to read these. I think that she would enjoy them but right now, she demonstrates a lack of maturity to view things in a realistic light. Also, because of how engrossing the story is, I would not want her to read some of the adult content of the later books so young and, lets face it, once you start them you want to know what is going to happen next.
Sara, while I don't agree with some of your points, the way you put the vampire/human-ness of why the sex scene went as it did was a helpful way of thinking about that. In that light I no longer think of that instance as abuse. I'm glad you are pulling the pro-twilight line...it makes for a more rounded discussion. Thanks.
I would LOVE it if every book we discussed here (or, well, lots of them) would spark these kinds of responses and debates.Let's find some more!
Sara TX wrote: Hahaha! I left suddenly because it was 5:00, and I left work... haha! Don't tell my boss how much time I spend on he..."Me too! Especially since I joined this group yesterday. It's nice to exchange ideas with adults, and the discussions here are so inviting.
Wait, hold on, THERE IS FAN FICTION OF THE SEX SCENE? Sara, you are my hero. Haha.
(G)Emma wrote: "Wait, hold on, THERE IS FAN FICTION OF THE SEX SCENE? Sara, you are my hero. Haha. "There are so many of them, you won't even know where to begin. The problem is that most of them are so TERRIBLY written (or written by 13-year-olds... have they even HAD sex? If so, HOW SAD!) that you won't be able to stand it.
Lauren wrote: "Sara, while I don't agree with some of your points, the way you put the vampire/human-ness of why the sex scene went as it did was a helpful way of thinking about that. In that light I no longer think of that instance as abuse. I'm glad you are pulling the pro-twilight line...it makes for a more rounded discussion. Thanks. "
I definitely don't think everyone has to agree with my views or opinions, but I'm glad you don't think Edward was being physically abusive at this particular time in the book... ;)
People tend to think of abuse as only physical. Physical abuse is much easier to recover from. Psychological abuse is harder. Most time phsycholgical is accompanied by physical but not always. Over control is a form of abuse. Using words to elicit that control is just as effective.
Yes I have enjoyed this series I read eclipse this month my fav so far I would say. I have breaking dawn ready for next month.
OMG I read this on FML and thought you guys might laugh:Today, my girlfriend dumped me proclaiming she wanted someone more like her "Edward". I asked her who Edward was. She held up a copy of her "Twilight" book. She was talking about a fictional vampire. FML
Wild Things: YA Grown-Up
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