Rachel Dean
asked:
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(view spoiler)[I can't stand that we don't know what happens to Lucy Gray. We don't even know if she figured out his treachery. What do you think? Did she die somewhere in the woods? I felt like he went off the deep end fairly quick at the end. I didn't want him to be so evil and heartless. Do we think there is a chance she survived? Climbed a tree and waited for him to leave? :( (hide spoiler)]
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The Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes,
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Ivy
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(view spoiler)[As Emma said, it's a reflection of the Lucy Grey Ballad that Snow never finds out Lucy Grey's fate. This takes place 64 years before Katniss's story, so maybe Lucy Grey lived (since there was no body we know of), went on to have a son who inherited her singing voice, and she took him to the lake to dig up water potatoes and taught him her songs, and told him if he'd been a girl she'd have named him Katniss because she liked the name so much. And after she died and he had a daughter, he named her Katniss in his mother's memory, and she inherited the singing talent, too.
I don't think Snow's fall from grace at the end was as quick as some are saying. It starts pretty early, actually, when he first breaks a rule to bring her food. He justifies breaking rules to do the right thing. Over the course of the book, his idea of what is right is changed by Dr. Gaul and her lessons, but he always does what he thinks must be done. To cope with his guilt, he justifies his actions to himself, as we see after Bobbin (the whole "kill or be killed" mentality, or even blaming his actions on the "chaos" in the arena as a result of no Capitol "control" as a way of further distancing himself from his deed). In the end he manages to twist himself a good justification before the attempted murder instead of after it, because as soon as he realizes he can't be connected to the murders, he's looking for a way to get out of running and go back to what he now knows is a safe bet at a life of comfort and luxury.
From the beginning we know he cares about appearances and every move he makes is calculated in order to be in control and get what he wants. I think if it weren't for his caring about appearances, his desire to get what he wants would be unchecked, and it's when no one is really looking that this desire takes over. For example, when he kills Bobbin, he takes solace in the fact that the screens were blacked out, but is bothered by the idea that the footage still exists somewhere. He thinks about it even more than he thinks about the actual killing. And when they're at the lake in the end with no one around to see, he's still thinking of how Lucy Grey sees him, and it's partially the idea that she doesn't think well of him anymore that gives him the allowance to kill her. (hide spoiler)]
I don't think Snow's fall from grace at the end was as quick as some are saying. It starts pretty early, actually, when he first breaks a rule to bring her food. He justifies breaking rules to do the right thing. Over the course of the book, his idea of what is right is changed by Dr. Gaul and her lessons, but he always does what he thinks must be done. To cope with his guilt, he justifies his actions to himself, as we see after Bobbin (the whole "kill or be killed" mentality, or even blaming his actions on the "chaos" in the arena as a result of no Capitol "control" as a way of further distancing himself from his deed). In the end he manages to twist himself a good justification before the attempted murder instead of after it, because as soon as he realizes he can't be connected to the murders, he's looking for a way to get out of running and go back to what he now knows is a safe bet at a life of comfort and luxury.
From the beginning we know he cares about appearances and every move he makes is calculated in order to be in control and get what he wants. I think if it weren't for his caring about appearances, his desire to get what he wants would be unchecked, and it's when no one is really looking that this desire takes over. For example, when he kills Bobbin, he takes solace in the fact that the screens were blacked out, but is bothered by the idea that the footage still exists somewhere. He thinks about it even more than he thinks about the actual killing. And when they're at the lake in the end with no one around to see, he's still thinking of how Lucy Grey sees him, and it's partially the idea that she doesn't think well of him anymore that gives him the allowance to kill her. (hide spoiler)]
Darina
This answer contains spoilers…
(view spoiler)[Remember that Maud Ivory can remember any melody and song. She knew both The Hanging Tree and Deep in the Meadow. Lucy didn't need to survive for the songs to survive. (hide spoiler)]
Rachel
This answer contains spoilers…
(view spoiler)[I don’t know about Lucy Gray BUT I do think her father was a Covey boy. Katniss’ mom was a merchant kid. Her parents owned the Apothecary and she left to marry a with a beautiful voice from the Seam. Her father was the one that taught her The Hanging Tree song.
I did like that we saw how Snow’s obsession with poison began...the Dean at the end was perfect! (hide spoiler)]
I did like that we saw how Snow’s obsession with poison began...the Dean at the end was perfect! (hide spoiler)]
Matthew Stevens
This answer contains spoilers…
(view spoiler)[Finding out the snake was nonvenemous makes Lucy more sympathetic/likeable.
As for whether she died? Like her ballad namesake, she's the "Schrodinger's Cat" of the book. It's possilbe to think of her as both alive AND dead.
I tend to believe she is Katniss' grandmother but that's strictly an opinion.
As for Snow? "I didn't want him to be so evil and heartless."---The current Snow is both of those things so why did you expect something different?
I too feel like his turn from "hopeless romantic" to "President Snow" was rather abrupt. He panicked very quickly at the thought of not living a life of luxury. (hide spoiler)]
As for whether she died? Like her ballad namesake, she's the "Schrodinger's Cat" of the book. It's possilbe to think of her as both alive AND dead.
I tend to believe she is Katniss' grandmother but that's strictly an opinion.
As for Snow? "I didn't want him to be so evil and heartless."---The current Snow is both of those things so why did you expect something different?
I too feel like his turn from "hopeless romantic" to "President Snow" was rather abrupt. He panicked very quickly at the thought of not living a life of luxury. (hide spoiler)]
Leah
i have a theory that maybe she's katniss's grandmother on her dad's side or something
Marisol
This answer contains spoilers…
(view spoiler)[So glad you posted because I need to discuss this with someone! I think she got away. Lucy was smart, she probably saw through Snow and left for district 13 without him. The speed with which he convinced himself she tried to kill him + was ready to murder her was shocking but it showed he can't trust anyone, he loves control too much. (hide spoiler)]
Leah
This answer contains spoilers…
(view spoiler)[I like Emma’s answer but I don’t think that’s plausible. This book is 50 years before Katniss’ story. So that would make her mom President Snow’s age. I think Lucy lived because the Hanging Tree song lived on as well as the song Deep in the Meadow. I think she became Greasy Sae. Don’t ask me why, it’s been so long since I read the books and watched the movies but after I ruled out Lucy being Katniss’ mom I thought of the old lady who worked at the Hob (had to google the name). *deleted and reposted so I could click “Mark entire answer as spoiler”* (hide spoiler)]
Emma
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(view spoiler)[It's meant to be a mystery like the original Lucy Gray ballad. In my opinion, she did survive, went into hiding (she had to anyway or the Mayor would have killed her if Snow didn't) changed her name etc. and then became Katniss' mom. Makes sense with the linked song to The Hanging Tree which maybe she sang to her husband and banished Katniss from singing as she knows the history of it and doesn't want that song linked to her family anymore and put Katniss in danger. (hide spoiler)]
Patricia
This answer contains spoilers…
(view spoiler)[I believe there is every chance she survived. From the beginning, Lucy Gray marched to a different drum, and in her own way, she managed Coryo Snow much more capably than he managed her. I think the question of the three men he killed triggered a survival instinct in Lucy, she made her escape, leaving behind the orange scarf which had become repugnant to her. Maybe she knew the snake was there, maybe she didn't. Do you think this is going to be the only prequel? I think the author plans it to be the beginning of a new series that leads us to how the Hunger Games developed into the games in which Katniss features. And yes, I believe there will be a connection to Lucy Gray.
I con't know that Coriolanus is evil and heartless. When we look at the evidence, we see that he is spoiled, in spite of his position, and sensitivity to appearances runs in his family, trying to maintain a societal position they can no longer afford. What I do see in him is that he is utterly reliant on others to make things happen in his life - he goes to his cousin for a new shirt, and she does everything she can to help him. While he is the great hope for renewing the family fortune, his cousin really enables him not to have to work too hard to attain the things he wants most at any given moment. He is self-absorbed, concerned mostly about his own needs, and oblivious to the needs - physical and emotional - of others. In the beginning, he has a little bit of conscience, most of which is concerned with consequences and appearances. As he develops, he becomes more callous and calculating to achieve his goals. I bet the memory of his experience with Lucy haunts the rest of his life.
There is a lot of material here for a continuing series. There is the death of Sejanus, and his flirtation with the resistance and Coriolanus' role in those events. There is his betrayal with the jabber jay, and the fact that Sejanus' father is now bankrolling his education and lifestyle. There is his recorded behavior in the arena, and of course, his killing of the professor who was once friends with his father (and there has to be a great backstory there, too.) I'll bet it had something to do with Coriolanus' mother. (hide spoiler)]
I con't know that Coriolanus is evil and heartless. When we look at the evidence, we see that he is spoiled, in spite of his position, and sensitivity to appearances runs in his family, trying to maintain a societal position they can no longer afford. What I do see in him is that he is utterly reliant on others to make things happen in his life - he goes to his cousin for a new shirt, and she does everything she can to help him. While he is the great hope for renewing the family fortune, his cousin really enables him not to have to work too hard to attain the things he wants most at any given moment. He is self-absorbed, concerned mostly about his own needs, and oblivious to the needs - physical and emotional - of others. In the beginning, he has a little bit of conscience, most of which is concerned with consequences and appearances. As he develops, he becomes more callous and calculating to achieve his goals. I bet the memory of his experience with Lucy haunts the rest of his life.
There is a lot of material here for a continuing series. There is the death of Sejanus, and his flirtation with the resistance and Coriolanus' role in those events. There is his betrayal with the jabber jay, and the fact that Sejanus' father is now bankrolling his education and lifestyle. There is his recorded behavior in the arena, and of course, his killing of the professor who was once friends with his father (and there has to be a great backstory there, too.) I'll bet it had something to do with Coriolanus' mother. (hide spoiler)]
Gayle
This prequel shook me more than the entire original trilogy, but I don't think there will be any more direct sequels to this prequel. I would die for
This prequel shook me more than the entire original trilogy, but I don't think there will be any more direct sequels to this prequel. I would die for a movie though!
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Dec 05, 2021 07:09PM
Dec 05, 2021 07:09PM
Cassandra
The backstory with Dean Highbottom - (view spoiler)[was that Crassus Snow and Dean Highbottom drunkenly came up with the sadistic idea for the Games,
The backstory with Dean Highbottom - (view spoiler)[was that Crassus Snow and Dean Highbottom drunkenly came up with the sadistic idea for the Games, Snow wrote it up and gave it to Dr Gaul presenting it as both of their's work, Highbottom was forever appalled because he was aware of how horrible an idea it was, and that he got the credit for it. (hide spoiler)]
...more
Apr 09, 2024 12:38AM
Apr 09, 2024 12:38AM
Mike
It's actually more like 60-65 years before the other 3 books.
This book contained the 10th hunger games, and the last of the trilogy was the 75th hunger games.
This book contained the 10th hunger games, and the last of the trilogy was the 75th hunger games.
Gabby
This answer contains spoilers…
(view spoiler)[I love reading all the different interpretations of what could've happened. I think that's why we don't find out what really happened because like her ballad suggests, her ending is ominous, and it's up to the reader to imagine their own ideas. Personally, I don't think she went back to District 12, in order to protect the Covey from the mayor and because it was clear she disliked the practices of the Capitol run society and wanted to escape it.
I think she did really love Coriolanus, but always had a feeling their opinions on human nature differed. I think she connected the dots about Sejanus and the murder weapons and realised that he would chose a life as a Peacekeeper (now that he could not be tied to Mayfair's death) over a life with her, which made her instinctively hide from him as she knew she was the last thing that derail his dreams and that he would do what he believed was necessary, even kill her.
I believe her story ended similarly to the girl who Wordsworth's poem 'Lucy Gray or Solitude' was based on. It was said that a young girl disappeared in a blizzard, and her parents did trace her steps (as the poem states), but her body was found in a river. I think Lucy Gray was either shot by Coriolanus and died listening to the jabberjays singing the Hanging Tree, or she ventured further into the woods and died of natural causes one day. I'm not sure why, but in my mind she would die in nature surrounded by the songbirds she loved, and they would possibly be echoing her music.
As for Coriolanus, I think at the beginning his morals are a mixture of those of his family, on one hand the empathy of his cousin (and maybe his mother), and on the other the loyalty to order and the Capitol that his father had. Throughout the book we get hints of both sides of him, and increasingly his similarity to his father. It is confirmed symbolically at the end, when he discards his mother's powder and the photos of Tigris but only keeps his father's compass. He had the potential to become as heartless as his father, and the influence of Dr Gaul led him towards that direction. (hide spoiler)]
I think she did really love Coriolanus, but always had a feeling their opinions on human nature differed. I think she connected the dots about Sejanus and the murder weapons and realised that he would chose a life as a Peacekeeper (now that he could not be tied to Mayfair's death) over a life with her, which made her instinctively hide from him as she knew she was the last thing that derail his dreams and that he would do what he believed was necessary, even kill her.
I believe her story ended similarly to the girl who Wordsworth's poem 'Lucy Gray or Solitude' was based on. It was said that a young girl disappeared in a blizzard, and her parents did trace her steps (as the poem states), but her body was found in a river. I think Lucy Gray was either shot by Coriolanus and died listening to the jabberjays singing the Hanging Tree, or she ventured further into the woods and died of natural causes one day. I'm not sure why, but in my mind she would die in nature surrounded by the songbirds she loved, and they would possibly be echoing her music.
As for Coriolanus, I think at the beginning his morals are a mixture of those of his family, on one hand the empathy of his cousin (and maybe his mother), and on the other the loyalty to order and the Capitol that his father had. Throughout the book we get hints of both sides of him, and increasingly his similarity to his father. It is confirmed symbolically at the end, when he discards his mother's powder and the photos of Tigris but only keeps his father's compass. He had the potential to become as heartless as his father, and the influence of Dr Gaul led him towards that direction. (hide spoiler)]
Megan
This answer contains spoilers…
(view spoiler)[She left it wide open for a sequel. I think that in the sequel Lucy Grey will come back and be a thorn in his side and a constant source of fear for him. Remember how Haymitch was the only tribute from 12 that had ever won the Hunger Games? The other districts had more tributes than that. I think it's because Snow will have to act so rashly with district 12 to try to eliminate Lucy Grey and the threat she poses that...well, we'll see what she does in the prequel sequel! (hide spoiler)]
Anthony Glunt
she cannot be katniss's mom as the timeline doesn't fit (not to mention, the personality). i think it is more plausible that she or more likely, maude ivory is her grandmother or great-grandmother on her dad's side.
Jim
She was 16 at the beginning of HG 10. Katniss was 16 at the beginning of HG 74. So she was 64 years older than Katniss. People seem to marry young in
She was 16 at the beginning of HG 10. Katniss was 16 at the beginning of HG 74. So she was 64 years older than Katniss. People seem to marry young in District 12 (Appalachia, with the mines), so maybe great-grandmother, but definitely not mother and probably not grandmother, though more possible.
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Feb 24, 2021 12:06PM · flag
Feb 24, 2021 12:06PM · flag
Laura
This answer contains spoilers…
(view spoiler)[I hoped she was Katniss’ mom but the timeline doesn’t match.. so Is Lucy Gray President Coin in 13? It’s driving me nuts that I don’t know how she fits into Katniss’ story! (hide spoiler)]
Tracy Wood
If she made it to district 13, maybe she could have been Alma Coin's mother.
If she made it to district 13, maybe she could have been Alma Coin's mother.
...more
Sep 03, 2021 07:03PM · flag
Sep 03, 2021 07:03PM · flag
Nancy
This answer contains spoilers…
(view spoiler)[I do think she is related to Katniss, she's either her grandmother or one of the other girls is. (hide spoiler)]
Julia
I feel like she may have lived because somehow the song is passed down "the hanging tree"... So when he hears it (Snow) he probably already hates Katniss and her father..
Shawn
This answer contains spoilers…
(view spoiler)[I love all these theories that Lucy is actually Katniss' mother. I've seen a lot of comments about Snow going off the deep end very quickly at the end. I think he was resigned to his fate that he wasn't going to amount to anything. Then when the opportunity/promotion to District 2 presented itself, there was a glimmer of hope. Once he had that taste, nothing was going to stop him from fulfilling the future he desire (or felt like he deserved). I originally thought Lucy was killed but I think not finding a body definitely makes it a little ominous. (hide spoiler)]
Samantha
This answer contains spoilers…
(view spoiler)[I think, Katniss is a descendant of Lucy Gray (or Maude Ivory). Hear me out, Katniss' sister is said to look different than the rest of District 12 AND her dad constantly sang her the hanging tree song (until her mother forbade it). The covey are said to look nothing like the rest of district 12 and therefor they must somehow be related to the strangely looking Everdeen(s). Plus, Katniss and her father are known for their singing in the trilogy (just like the covey!). Besides, who doesn't love a good family battle. Wouldn't it be so ironic if Snow was battling it out his ex-lover's descendant. (hide spoiler)]
Kay Dee (what is your storygraph name? mine is in my bio. join me!) Meadows
This answer contains spoilers…
(view spoiler)[yassssss. this is where i want to be. that ending was like rushed. i have questions. let's see if y'all have the same questions and good guesses for the answers.
ok none of y'all questioned or talked about HOW lucy figured it out. like why she ran and hid from snow. snow's reaction is predictable. he will do anything to stay on top and make a name for himself. but lucy lead him to the snake. how did she know???!!!!
sidenote: it's stupid you cannot comment more than once on a question. smh. goodreads. ugh. (hide spoiler)]
ok none of y'all questioned or talked about HOW lucy figured it out. like why she ran and hid from snow. snow's reaction is predictable. he will do anything to stay on top and make a name for himself. but lucy lead him to the snake. how did she know???!!!!
sidenote: it's stupid you cannot comment more than once on a question. smh. goodreads. ugh. (hide spoiler)]
Alaa Abdel-Rahman
This answer contains spoilers…
(view spoiler)[To answer the first part of your question, I think part of the charm of this book is not knowing what happened to Lucy Gray and believing that she lived on to have Katniss as her descendant. In other words, if Lucy Gray was ever "part of the rebellion", she would have ensured the same spirit lived on beyond her especially through the Hanging Tree ballad which is a direct antonym to the Panem Anthem in my view. I think Collins made it intentionally that we don't know what happened to Lucy Gray and left it to our own interpretation. And I would like to believe that Lucy Gray went on to live her life till an old age with Katniss Everdeen as a descendant from her line.
On the question of Snow being evil and heartless, I think this has been established from the start of the book with him being one to want to preserve appearances and status. While Lucy Gray may have swayed his heart and made him consider leaving the Capitol, Power, Control and everything he knew behind, he always had his own clicks and ticks that made him the evil we all came to know during the Rebellion 64 years later. The fact that he hated Mockingjays is a nod to how he would despise Katniss later on and how his heart was never in the right "good place". How he saw and bent the rules to fit his own narrative, made it quite clear Snow would break into old patterns in no time. How he viewed control and the Capitol as essential to the survival of its people - even with the War having ended - shows that he was always evil and heartless to begin with. Yet, he is only human after all and Lucy Gray - the clever and manipulative person she is - was able to play with his heart which is why we got to have a very small and weak hope that Snow might have turned evil later than was indicated by the book. (hide spoiler)]
On the question of Snow being evil and heartless, I think this has been established from the start of the book with him being one to want to preserve appearances and status. While Lucy Gray may have swayed his heart and made him consider leaving the Capitol, Power, Control and everything he knew behind, he always had his own clicks and ticks that made him the evil we all came to know during the Rebellion 64 years later. The fact that he hated Mockingjays is a nod to how he would despise Katniss later on and how his heart was never in the right "good place". How he saw and bent the rules to fit his own narrative, made it quite clear Snow would break into old patterns in no time. How he viewed control and the Capitol as essential to the survival of its people - even with the War having ended - shows that he was always evil and heartless to begin with. Yet, he is only human after all and Lucy Gray - the clever and manipulative person she is - was able to play with his heart which is why we got to have a very small and weak hope that Snow might have turned evil later than was indicated by the book. (hide spoiler)]
Fairywitch
This answer contains spoilers…
(view spoiler)[Right before he tries to kill her, he points out that she has excellent surviving skills. So, I really do believe she survived. Probably went on untill she reached district 13. Good for her, considering music was banned on ditrict 12 and the mayor would've had her killed by all means. She had no reason to go back.
Her unknown fate matching her name-ballad is, in my opinion, an amasing literary choice of Collins. (hide spoiler)]
Her unknown fate matching her name-ballad is, in my opinion, an amasing literary choice of Collins. (hide spoiler)]
Gayle
This answer contains spoilers…
(view spoiler)[It was truly tragic to see Snow's evil laid so bare in the epilogue but it was set up from the beginning. He was raised to value power and control above all else since birth, and we see all his sociopathic tendencies and amoral decisions. Lucy Gray definitely realized his treachery regarding Sejanus. (hide spoiler)]
Josephine
This answer contains spoilers…
(view spoiler)[In the last chapter (NOT the epilogue) Snow isn’t sure if Lucy Gray is dead. However, in the epilogue he seems positive that she’s dead. I think that she was not dead as of the last chapter, but somewhere in between that chapter and the epilogue Snow either killed her or had her killed. (hide spoiler)]
Poppy
This answer contains spoilers…
(view spoiler)[It was Snow’s point of view and I think he was looking for a way back to his old life. He fell fast into his own dark thoughts. I wonder too if Lucy Gray has any suspicions at all about him. Maybe that gun shot was her first warning. I’d like to believe she survived and that Katniss was either her granddaughter or distance cousin at least. (hide spoiler)]
Aarjvi Jain
This answer contains spoilers…
(view spoiler)[Am I the only one who freaking thinks that yes, she survived, at least for another book man. She was smart, she knew the woods.
Also, WHYYYY are people not seeing that she really might be the grandmother (or somewhere in the family tree) of Katniss! (hide spoiler)]
Also, WHYYYY are people not seeing that she really might be the grandmother (or somewhere in the family tree) of Katniss! (hide spoiler)]
Veronica Rosazza Prin
This answer contains spoilers…
(view spoiler)[I think she's Katniss grandmother. Or maybe a causin, if Maude Ivory were her grandmother. Katniss knows every song! (hide spoiler)]
Kristin
I think maybe or she went back to her people. or more far north
Kelly Santana-Banks
This answer contains spoilers…
(view spoiler)[I honestly think Lucy died. It says somewhere in the original Hunger Games trilogy that she disappeared. However, Lucy could have came back to District 12 and started a new life under a different name. (hide spoiler)]
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