Rachmi ’s Comments (group member since Mar 31, 2016)

Rachmi ’s comments from the J.R.R. Tolkien Epic Reads group.

Heidi wrote: "Rachmi wrote: "Chapter 9 is my favorite of Silmarillion so far! I cannot believe it took me a whole month to start it :P

To be honest, I'm not too fond of Feanor. He's stubborn, easily to persuad..."

Agree, knowing what kinslaying means now I can feel that it's so much darker and evil than just a civil war.

Wita wrote: "There's an interesting story of Melkor. In Tolkien's early concept of the Children of the Ainur, Melkor had a son Kosomot (later Gothmog) with an ogress called Fuithluin. An ogress? hehe... This is..."

For me, it's pretty amazing reading "the behind-the-scene" Tolkien works. He wrote and we all know he also revised so many things. So his background stories are also fascinating me. I think it's also as interesting as his final stories we read now.

My goal is to read History of Middle Earth (HoME) too, someday :D But I guess it's a long way to do it, considering there are still many books I need to read before I'm ready to read the whole volume of HoME.

Heidi wrote: "Rach, that's a great contrast to Saruman, Grima Wormtongue, and Theoden. I see it as Grima is aligning with Saruman for his own gain and pretty much clear what Saruman's objectives are, control The..."

Yes, that's why I think Melkor is the most bad-ass antagonist in Tolkien stories. Because his "tricks", evilness and everything in him is a whole new level from other antagonist in The Hobbit and LOTR.

Hah, same with me. I watched The Hobbit 1 right after they were released and never watch it again. But if my memory is right, it opened with something like that, Heidi. I get why you think it sounds like chapter 10.

But I think Mary is also right, PJ most likely "created new story" he (and his team) added so many things we barely know what The Hobbit is all about.

So since we've finished chapter 9, Of The Flight of The Noldor and chapter 10, Of The Sindar let's continue to the illustration for both chapters.

In The Silmarillion illustration edition by Ted Nasmith, there are two illustration for chapter 9. Here they are:



It's called The Ships of the Teleri Drawn by Swans. Look at the colors and the ships! It's beautiful. I think it's my favorite pic (from Ted Nasmith in Silmarillion) so far.

The other illustration is



As much as it fits with the story well, I'm not a fan of it. I think it looks a bit like a snake? And I don't like snake at.all :D

There is no illustration for chapter 10. But I'll try to search from other artists later. Who knows, maybe they have illustrations that fits with chapter 10.

I agree with Mary (and Heidi too). LoTR and The Hobbit is completely different books. Yes, both are fantasy, but they are in their own league. I mean, The Hobbit is a children book in the first place. It's all fun and much simple. While LOTR is I guess intended to older readers with darker theme. For me, comparing LOTR and The Hobbit is like describing LOTR and Harry Potter to my friends who haven't read both books. They are both epic fantasy (in genre) but they are so different I don't think it's fair to compare them both.

So to say the least, PJ (in my opinion) shouldn't put them both in the same style. He's just trying too hard to make The Hobbit the same as LOTR while I see it's completely different. And the fact that he wants audiences who don't read the books know that The Hobbit is the prequel of LOTR while it's a direct prequel, made him dig (and stretch) The Hobbit too much it lost its essence, just like Heidi said.

For example, my friends who don't read the books, asked me whether it is Aragorn Thranduil and Legolas are talking about at the end of the third movie. PJ implied it is Aragorn while we readers know that Aragorn is just a baby when The Hobbit takes place! I found it's quite hard to answer the question, because not only I have to tell different theme between The Hobbit and LOTR, but also about how Tolkien wrote them both in the first place. I think it's important to know the way he wrote both books, once I know it, I understand the essence of both books easier. And it's just brilliant the way he wrote The Hobbit and then LOTR (because fans wanted the sequel) while at the same time he said that The Hobbit that he wrote first is just Bilbo lying the whole time. Thus LOTR born. It's amazing, isn't it?

Heidi wrote: "Rachmi wrote: "Yes, we definitely should read Children of Hurin after The Silmarillion! Heard that it's an epic-tragic story, cannot wait to read it..."

Great! Then Children of Hurin next!

So Wit..."

Now if you put it that way, I guess you're right. Sauron is clearly using Saruman since the beginning, with clear intention. Maybe just like Saruman is using Theoden in The Two Tower (through Grima Wormtongue)? Or is it he being manipulative to Theoden? I guess this manipulating thing is a bit tricky for me. But if I see from your description about Saruman manipulating Gandalf, it's easy to understand. And yes, I agree to what you said, Saruman pretends to help Gandalf and friendly with him while he has some hidden agenda for himself. That's being manipulative, for sure.

Heidi wrote: "Ch. 10. The dwarves :D

Weren't they asleep the last time we heard about them?!? Or is this just something else I forgot.

All in all, this chapter didn't wow me as much as chapter 9. It tells the ..."

That's the exact thing I questioned when I read about dwarves in chapter 10! I don't think we missed something, because we only got dwarves in the chapter when Aule created them. That's is, there is no dwarves until now.

And...it's the same Denethor we discussed before! Again, it's another thing that I questioned and I instantly check for it on my eBook :D

I'm not sure whether the opening of The Hobbit movie comes from this chapter, though. I mean if PJ got it from this chapter, he surely have to get its rights, right? while we know that Tolkien Estate is the one who still have The Silmarillion rights now. But then again, I forgot the opening of The Hobbit :D So I cannot say much about it, Lol.

Heidi wrote: "Okay, I finished chapters 9 & 10! Yay! Wow! Chapter 9 was just amazing. I don't even know where to begin, there is so much there.

1. Elegant twist. I thought Feanor's conflation of Melkor and the ..."

Chapter 9 is my favorite of Silmarillion so far! I cannot believe it took me a whole month to start it :P

To be honest, I'm not too fond of Feanor. He's stubborn, easily to persuade and somehow irresponsible he (most of the time) makes me angry, Lol. But he's a very interesting character I cannot help not to be intrigued by his story. And what story he has!

I'm so sad that he caused the civil war, yes he's grieving for his father death but he also causes so many deaths upon his kin. He's just...I'm not sure if I see him as a protagonist or antagonist. But I guess it's the beauty of his character (and the story and other characters in general). Tolkien makes his characters aren't as clear as black and white, even I find Melkor is awesome :D

I mostly read Silmarillion in Indonesian, so I don't quite get the beauty of the writing, mostly it's so dry because it's also written in Indonesian formal writing. It fits with English writing perfectly but in a way it loses the poetry kind of feeling, I think. BUT I got to learn new thing here! I never heard/knew about kinslaying before, in Indonesian edition it's translated into perang saudara (civil war). When I read it, I was curious I instantly open my English edition to look for it. I thought Tolkien will use civil war, though somehow I just knew that he will mostly not use the word. And I was right, he use kinslaying instead. So I check on my eDictionary, they don't have the word and so I googled it, voila! I get a new word now :D

Hah, Ungoliant is indeed play on gluttony! I cannot imagine she's so hungry he ate herself. It's just eww....

We've seen the birth of Men in previous chapters. I forgot which chapter but it was in earlier chapter. I think not long after it tells about how Eru makes elves as the First Children. I'm not sure about Middle-earth, though. I didn't think about it last night. I'll check about it later on my eBook (yes, I also have the eBook version :D in this time like this eBook comes in handy, Lol).

Okay, those are my thoughts about your thoughts :D I basically have similar thoughts with you. But there is one more thing I found in this chapter, it's about the life of the elves. Before Silmarillion I know that elves are immortal, sort of. They have a very long life, but somehow I never read more about it. I mean, from the movies I know that they can die when someone kill them but I don't think I never read about it in LOTR and The Hobbit. So it's a nice thing knowing that it is really written in the story. Hope you understand what I mean.

Wita wrote: "Thank you, kak Rach!☺

So, it's the deal. Everyone will going to have Children of Húrin on the list after finishing The Sil. Yayyy!!"

Already got my copy (in Indonesian) sitting nicely in my shelf, so I have to read it somehow, someday. And you guys is the perfect reason to do it, next year :D

Couldn't agree more with the amazing cast for LoTR! Before FoTR released I only knew some of them, while some others have no idea at all, but then watched the movie and feel like they were born to do their characters. There's no one who can play Aragorn like Viggo Mortensen! or Gandalf like Ian McKellen or every cast in the movies.

As for TH cast, I'm not so sure I love it more than LoTR cast, but then again, maybe it's because I don't quite like the way PJ delivered the movies, or maybe because it feels like a fan fiction movie, with virtual/reality game-like feeling in most of the movies, I don't know :) So maybe I'm biased too?

I forgot where I read, but PJ once said that he's interested in making The Silmarillion into the movie. It leads a speculation he tried to buy its right but Christopher Tolkien insists to not give it to him or any one really. And there's a short video in PJ's Facebook last year, when he announced that he'll do one of Doctor Who's episodes there's a The Silmarillion on his table in front of the camera, that leads the talking that he'll do it for real, but again The Tolkien Estate said that its right is still in their hand.

I don't know whether it's just a matter of public opinion or if it's only the newspaper speculation, one think for sure (for me) I agree with Christopher Tolkien, I'm not ready to watch The Silmarillion in the movie(s). So it's best it's in my imagination for now.

I haven't seen many illustrations of Tolkien works, but I think Jenny Dolfen is one of the well-known artists in Tolkien Society. As Heidi said her (watercolor?) coloring is amazing. No wonder she's your favorite, Wita :)

Eep...thanks for the map, Wita!

I have one of HoME (History of Middle Earth) that contains the map and how Tolkien created Middle Earth in the beginning. It actually a good companion, but is quite dull and dense book, I think. I think it's because it's so technical it's like reading a text book. I got bored easily and put it on hold for years. Haven't finished it yet. Maybe I'll go back again some day in the future (the same case as one of Tolkien essay) when I finish The Silmarillion :)

Yes, we definitely should read Children of Hurin after The Silmarillion! Heard that it's an epic-tragic story, cannot wait to read it.

I'm with you guys, I don't think Nienna has hidden agenda either. And I always thought that Melkor is the most cunning evil in ME. I also agree with you, Heidi. Manipulate is the perfect term for him. He's so good with it he takes cunning to the next level, if it's possible. Before I read The Sil I thought Saruman is so good with manipulation but Melkor is much more than Saruman.

That being said, I think what you meant by Sauron manipulates Gandalf. Gandalf never once thinks to question his master ... until it is too late, and Sauron has become a tool use/manipulated by Sarumon. is actually Sauron manipulates Saruman, right? I don't think Gandalf has been manipulated by Sauron before, or did I miss something here?

Yes, chapter 7 is kinda intense. I'm a bit mad to Fëanor though. He's quite snob and in a way he 'let' Melkor do his evil. But I guess it makes him more interesting character. So no complaint here :D

Well I surely don't know about Vin Diesel loves TS. I only know Stephen Colbert being a big fan of Tolkien works and the guy who played the son of the Green Goblin in Spiderman, gosh I forgot his name :) Those are the only two I know love reading Tolkien books.

But then again, both pictures of Ulmo and Aulë are from the scene in the story too. So I don't think it's a stand-alone?

I'm afraid I don't understand by stand-alone illustrations of one the the characters. Do you mean that whether Nasmith illustrates one of each character in TS? If it is what you mean the answer is there are only two characters that are portrayed as their own. Aulë and Ulmo.

There are 45 illustrations in TS illustration edition by Ted Nasmith. But Aulë and Ulmo that are stand-alone (?) The rest is just like you said, most portrayed the landscape and/or from some scene from the story. You can see Aulë in the pic above, it's called Aulë Prepares to Destroy His Children. As for Ulmo is in chapter 23. That's why I haven't posted it yet. Ulmo by Nasmith is quite different from Ulmo by John Howe. I cannot wait to show it to you. But now, as we already know who he is, maybe it's better if I post it sooner than later :)

Thanks, Wita! Glad you like it :)

I've already saw some good works for next chapters, cannot wait for you guys to see it. Most of them are from Ted Nasmith, Alan Lee and John Howe though.

But Wita, if you want to add the illustrations, please free to post it in its thread. I know you know some other illustrations aside those three ;)

Just realized we don't have any introduction thread! But anyway, I want you guys to meet my friend, Wita. She's Indonesian and a fan of Tolkien too. I 'met' her on Instagram because of Tolkien, obviously :D and have been discussing Silmarillion since then.

So Wita, please join our discussion whenever you can. You can reread it, or if you don't want to that's okay if you just jump up to the discussion every month. As you can see, there are three threads already. One for Preface, Ainulindalë and Valaquenta; the other one is for chapter 1 to chapter 6; and the last one (this thread) is for chapter 7 to chapter 12. You can join us in which ever thread/chapter you want.

Welcome and hope you have a great time here!

damn autocorrect! it's supposed to be its not it's

*it's not it's :D