Rachmi ’s Comments (group member since Mar 31, 2016)

Rachmi ’s comments from the J.R.R. Tolkien Epic Reads group.

Chapter 24. was better for me, but it didn't have the final Oomph that I guess I wanted, so that when I read "Here ends the Silmarrillion" I confess I felt a little bit let down.

For me, TS doesn't have any ending, not really. At least not the ending like in (normal) books, because this is more narrative. Does it even make sense to you? :D

Tolkien wanted to publish it his whole life but at the same time, he also kept writing and revising it. So in a way, I think it never ended. We can pick any chapters in the book and read it separately or read based on the theme of the story and/or subplot, since there are many stories here. For example: chapter 3-chapter 7-chapter 8-chapter 9-chapter 13-chapter 18-chapter 20-then chapter 24 or from chapter 3-chapter 4-chapter 10- and chapter 14. I haven't tried reading it this way but am interested to do it, maybe in my rereading on June.

So that's why we don't get the feeling it really ends and ended rather abruptly, at least that's what I'm feeling :)

Suilad mellon nin!

This is where we can discuss Akallabeth and Of The Rings of Power and the Third Age chapter of The Silmarillion.

Chapter 22, Of The Ruin of Doriath by Ted Nasmith

Húrin Finds Morwen



2. The Nauglamir



Chapter 23, Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin

1. Tuor is Led by the Swans to Vinyamar



2. Tuor at Vinyamar



3. Ulmo Appears before Tuor



4. Tuor and Voronwë See Túrin at the Pool of Ivrin



5. The Incoming Sea at the Rainbow Cleft



6. Tuor Reaches the Hidden City of Gondolin



7. Flight of the Doomed



Chapter 24, Of The Voyage of Earendil and the War of Wrath

1. Eärendil Searches Tirion



2. Maglor Casts a Silmaril into the Sea

Chapter 23, Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin

1. Anyone know who is the tall Man in he was a tall Man, clad in black, and bearing a black sword. But they knew not who he was, nor anything of what had befallen in the south; and he passed them by, and they said no word.?

2. For a minute, when I read about Glorfindel, I thought this is the same Glorfindel in FoTR :)

3. So to summarize chapter 22 & 23, can I say that Hurin (and his descendants), in a way, causing the Fall of Doriath while Tuor who is Huor's son which also means Hurin's nephew caused the Fall of Gondolin?

Chapter 24, Of the Voyage of Earendil and the War of the Wrath.

I was kind of hope I will get more about Earendil here, considering he's the title of the chapter. But I'm happy to know that Arwen and Aragorn's ancestral becomes clearer here.

As this is the last chapter of TS, I think all those death and chaos that happened in First Age were mainly because of Morgoth and Feanor's oath. What do you guys think?

Mary wrote: "Curses were very important in the literature that Tolkien drew upon. Magical effect might indeed occur from ill-wishing someone."

Do you know book(s) that I can read more about curses? is there any book about it specifically in Tolkien works?

Heidi wrote: "Hey Ladies!

Rachmi,

1. Thanks for pointing out those appendixes in LoTR, yes, my edition has them!

2. Great point about the curses, it's true, there are many. Is this the dark side of words? i...."

I honest am intrigued with this curse business :P Especially how it works and what empower them that can bind them, even for generations.

Sydney wrote: "To me, Chapter 21 was a total drag. Long and so depressing! I much more prefer Chapters 22-24."

While for me, chapter 21 is one of my favorite chapters in TS :D Does it mean that you won't read Children of Hurin, then? Because it's based on this chapter, I think.

Sydney wrote: "I think the Shepherds of the Trees are the Ents. I could be wrong, but I have always thought they were. In LOTR, in several passages about the Ents, it talks about how ancient they are. So they sho..."

I think so too! Ents were the first thing in my mind when I read those Shepherds of the Trees sentence. And now when you point out that they should have existed during this time period and before. I'm pretty sure that they are indeed Ents :)

Chapter 22, Of The Ruin of Doriath

This book took the death of its characters to a whole new level. I thought A Song of Ice and Fire series that has the most characters die along the story, but it's nothing compare to TS. And there are so many death because of "misunderstanding" and the arrogant of the characters. Not to mention of Morgoth's words.

I wonder whether the battle between the elves and the dwarves here that caused the bad relationship between the two races that will eventually solve when Legolas befriend with Gimli in the fourth age in LoTR.

And does these Shepherds of Trees (in And as they climbed the long slopes beneath Mount Dolmed there came forth the Shepherds of the Trees, and they drove the Dwarves into the shadowy woods of Ered Lindon: whence, it is said, came never one to climb the high passes that led to their homes) means Ents like in LoTR?

Heidi wrote: "Rachmi wrote: "Happy New Year, everyone!

Since I'm still captivated with The Silmarillion and cannot stop reading it, I decided to continue my reading to chapter 21. But since I don't know if you ..."

1. If you want to refresh your memory, since you don't remember it :) I think you can reread LoTR appendix A (if your LoTR divides into three books, then all of the appendixes, including appendix A, are in RoTK. There's a chapter called The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen. That's the back story of Aragorn is told.

2. the power of the word to define ... when we say something, when we try to define something, can we make it true if people believe what we say? I just finished chapter 22 and realized that there are so many curses in TS and now I wonder if these curses is a part of the power of the word to define, like you said? I don't know who curse works but in TS it seems the characters curse other characters quite easy and then the curse is truly happen. Could it be because they believe it and it has power in it to bond the one who is (are) cursed?

3. I read in one of Tolkien Instagram account fans a few days ago that said that Tolkien consider that there's part of him in Faramir too. I never thought it but I now I'm curious of it :)

4. As I already finished chapter 22, I can tell that CoH is going to be totally depressing!

Chapter 21, Of Turin Turambar by Ted Nasmith

1. Saeros’ Fatal Leap



2. Túrin and his Band are Led to Amon Rûdh



3. Beleg is Slain



4. Túrin Bears Gwindor to Safety



5. Finduilas Led Past Túrin at Nargothrond



6. Túrin Reaches the Abandoned Homestead



7. Up the Rainy Stairs



8. Túrin Discovers Nienor at the Mound of Finduilas
(This illustration isn't in the book, at least the book I own, I discover it in Nasmith website with note This work was initially approved for the illustratedSilmarillion, but withdrawn due to legal concerns about the nudity. It was acknowledged that it was discreetly depicted, and was not meant as artistic censure.)

Chapter 20, Of The Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad by Ted Nasmith. There are only two illustrations in the book, they are:

1. Morgoth punishes Húrin



2. The Hill of Slain



I think these two illustrations are pretty powerful, especially The Hill of Slain. I don't know about you guys, but I feel sad seeing it.

Mary wrote: "It was too dark for me to get through."

You read The Silmarillion when you were 12 year old? Whoa...

I don't think I can understand it if I read it as young as you were :) I'm an adult now but I had problem at the beginning of the book.

Heidi wrote: "Okay, So I read Ch. 21 Of Turin Tarambar yesterday.

Glad we just had one chapter this month because it was a long one. Long but good.

Rachmi, where are your comments? Did you hold off? I know yo..."

So sorry for my late reply! My thoughts about chapter 21 is in message 11. I hide it in a spoiler tag. Should I remove the tag now?

Strangely, I didn't see the connection when I read this chapter to Tolkien life but I agree with you, there are so many things that similar between Turin and Tolkien. I never heard that Tolkien saw himself in Turin though. He's more like Gandalf to me :D

Agree, Mariliis. Nasmith's sceneries are stunning. I especially love the colors he chose for his illustrations. Somehow I think it makes them more prominent, if it even makes sense :)

I also love Alan Lee and John Howe works. But since I don't have books with their illustrations, I can only get them from the internet.

Do you mind sharing the illustrations from your book here?

So a few months ago, when I struggled to read The Silmarillion, I stumbled into this tumblr account. The good thing about it is a person who has it provide the guidance of how to read The Silmarillion easier, based on his/her experience, of course.

He/She also makes and summarize things regarding Middle-earth (i.e racism, female characters, cross-raced relationship) and they are in pdf. So basically you can download them for free.

I might try his/her method when I read The Silmarillion for the second time, on June this year :)

Here's the link, in case you want to download his/her work, or even if you just want to read the Q&A about Middle-earth

http://askmiddlearth.tumblr.com/guides

Heidi wrote: "Thanks, Wita and Mary for answering questions:)

So... I'm really looking forward to reading Ch. 21 this month, sounds like it's going to be a good one ... and also getting excited about CoH!!!!"

Chapter 21 is awesome, Heidi! It's definitely one of my favorite chapters of The Silmarillion. Now I really cannot wait to read CoH, have to admit that I did take a look a little bit, though Lol

It's called Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth (The Debate of Finrod and Andreth) published in Morgoth's Ring, History of Middle Earth, vol. 10, Part Four.

I have read this story before, but I don't remember where, Lol. I don't have HoME vol. 10 so I never read it, maybe from the internet somewhere :)

It is an interesting story, mainly because like what you said, the one who is immortal/elf is the man while other cross-raced couple are the female elves.

And yes, nice to have you back, Wita :)

Heidi wrote: "Rachmi, wow. What a journey! So glad you got that Indonesian version in time for our epic read!!!!"

It feels like the universe helps me to finally get the Indonesian edition in time for our buddy reading :P And there's already Children of Hurin Indonesian edition too. I'm so ready! Lol.

Tara Sadowski wrote: "Hi All! I'm new to this group, but I have been a fan of Tolkien's works for years. I have read TS, LoTR, and TH several times, and I look forward to cool in-depth discussions on the text. Its so wo..."

Hi Tara!

I agree with you, each time I read Tolkien book, well not only book, chapter too :) I always find something new. I guess that's how great he is.