Rachmi ’s Comments (group member since Mar 31, 2016)

Rachmi ’s comments from the J.R.R. Tolkien Epic Reads group.

So sorry I forgot that I promise to write poem and/or song in The Hobbit from my Indonesian edition. But since it's about The Hobbit, I think it's best if I write it down on The Hobbit thread, what do you think?

And since there is also discussion about The Hobbit here while it's an introduction thread, I'll link this thread into The Hobbit thread too. That way it will be easier for someone (well...me at least) if they want to know more about the differences between The Hobbit in French, Indonesian and Russian with English edition.

Heidi wrote: "WOW!!!! I love this thread! Mel, Tara, and Rachmi, thank you for sharing your insights into the translations. Mel, the sharing of how they change the names is so rich. It would never occur to me, t..."

Heidi, we do subtitles for movies both in theater and TV, the voice over is only for children movies. I remember when I was young, sometimes they did voice over for English (or any other languages) movies in TV but at early 2000s most TV station keep the original languages and subtitle it instead. I prefer subtitle, to be honest. It helps me to learn more about the language and it's one of ways I practice my listening :D

Kerstin wrote: "Hello! The first time I got in touch with Tolkien's work was when I was a teenager (and that was ages ago) and I received The Hobbit as a gift. From then on, my admiration and love for his extraord..."

Hi Kerstin!

Welcome and please join us reading The Hobbit now. May I know where are you come from and whether you read The Hobbit or LoTR or any Tolkien works in a language other than English?

As you can read, we're discussing The Hobbit from many other languages. I love to know the difference editions between those languages. So feel free to join our discussion too :)

Tara wrote: "Mel ☀︎ wrote: "I feel like French translators tend to take great liberties with names in general. They don't always translate them, or not always using the same version. In Tolkien books Isengard i..."

I'll let you know some of the poems/songs later. I'm still at the office now and don't have the book with me.

But mostly Indonesian translator "sacrifice" the rhyme. So it doesn't have the similar rhyme but still have the same meaning with the English one.

Mel ☀︎ wrote: "I feel like French translators tend to take great liberties with names in general. They don't always translate them, or not always using the same version. In Tolkien books Isengard isn't translated..."

Wow...I'm honestly surprised that French edition has so many changes in names!

The thing is in Indonesian, we don't change characters names. I don't know why but we just don't. Maybe it's because it's character/people name that somehow represent the story itself. That's why I always think that character name is one of the most important things in story. If it doesn't suit with the story, I don't feel like they belong in the book, as strange as it sounds hahaha. It happens both in movies and books. We keep them as they are, be it in English, Mandarin, German, Japanese or else.

And then, with the later edition I think the publisher gets much suggestion from the Indonesian who love Tolkien. That's why they change the "peri" and keep "elf" in The Hobbit. And the translator of The Silmarillion got so much suggestion from The Hobbit and LoTR translator as well as Indonesian fans. So we basically have similar translation on Tolkien books now.

Tara wrote: "Mel ☀︎ wrote: "I am French :) I didn't end up reading much in the train but I did notice this new edition translates names differently. I think Bilbo is 'Bilbon Sacquet' in all my other French edit..."

I haven't read The Letters of J.R.R Tolkien yet but I do understand if he annoyed with the translation of his books.

I honestly think that Indonesian translation is good, despite the elf thing. They still keep true to the tone of the book which is one of the important things in translating book, imho. So I can feel the difference when I read The Hobbit and The Silmarilion, for example.

However, I also agree with you Tara. There are changes, especially in songs and poems or in The Hobbit, the riddles. They still have the same meaning but they lose the rhyme which is a bit annoying me. So when I read it, it doesn't that beautiful anymore, unlike when I read it in English.

Hi Mel! As Heidi pointed out, I discovered Tolkien because of LotR the movies too. So in a way, I feel like indebted with Peter Jackson :D because he "introduced" me to Tolkien works.

I'm not that good in English and only started reading in English since 2010, I think. But I am still not confident enough to read Tolkien works in English, though I'll try to read both in my own language and English now. I started it with The Silmarillion and have to say that it was quite difficult. It was a difficult reading even when I read it in my own language hahaha. The Hobbit is a bit easier though. So I do compare the two editions now.

As The Hobbit is already publish (or should I say re-publish?) three or four times in my language, there are also changes in translations (for example at the first publish they translated elf into peri which is the same meaning as fairy but then later on in recent publish edition they don't translate it and keep it as elf and elves. I think this is to differentiate with fairy). They don't change most of the names though. They keep the character names as they are, but they translate the names of the places and things mostly. So here I still get Bilbo Baggins and Thorin Oakenshield but Gunung Sunyi instead of Lonely Mountain (Gunung = Mountain but Sunyi is actually mean quiet).

Donna wrote: "Heidi wrote: "Hey Everyone! My apologies for an unexplained absence. We had a family tragedy:( My husband's 24-year-old grandson died on September 17, a fatal car crash. He was hit head-on by someo..."

This is the fun read for me too! I remember that I was amazed with the story when I first read it, but now I feel like it's more fun, I don't know why. Or maybe because now I get to pay more attention with everything while 15 years ago all I wanted to is having an adventure with Bilbo and the dwarves :)

I feel Bilbo is too kind though. I tried imagine myself being in his shoes and think that I won't be able to be that kind and acceptance to my guess like Bilbo did hahaha.

Heidi wrote: "Hey Everyone! My apologies for an unexplained absence. We had a family tragedy:( My husband's 24-year-old grandson died on September 17, a fatal car crash. He was hit head-on by someone who was DUI..."

1. The Note is on runes. I really like that because it lends a historical veracity to the fiction:) I'm sure that's exactly what Tolkien meant to do. And I love his explanation of dwarfs vs. dwarves and his decision to use dwarves.

As I'm reading The Hobbit in Indonesian, I was surprised to find that there's no notes about Tolkien's explanation about dwarfs vs dwarves and why he decided to use dwarves. So when I saw your comment, you made me check it out on my English edition. And I somehow feel ignorant maybe? (am not sure if it's the right word) as I thought dwarves is the correct word, as I only knew dwarve and dwarves though later on, just a week ago, I read in Gaiman book and he used dwarf and dwarfs instead. To be honest, I thought Gaiman used the not-so correct word :D

2. He uses the word "adventure" 15 times in the first chapter, drawing a strong and playful contrast to the hobbit culture's disapproval of adventure.

Did you really count the words? I didn't realize there are that much "adventure". But strangely, I feel more exiting with Bilbo adventure now, than when I first read the book 15 years ago.

3. Then he references Bilbo's fairy-mother several times, to explain, the state in Bilbo's change of mind from the beginning of the chapter to the end. I'm not certain, I haven't read LotR in so long, but is Bilbo's fairy mother the only fairy in the series?!?!?

I think so. I haven't read LoTR in a long time either though.

This is OOT but in Indonesian, the translator translated both fairy and elf with the same word, peri. Before I read any Tolkien books, I don't have problem with it, as I only know peri is for a teeny tiny creature like Tinker Bell. But when LoTR the movies came you can imagine how surprised I was to find that elf isn't a little creature like I used to know. And then I read LoTR and The Hobbit and found out that elf isn't the same thing as fairy.

So now, reading The Hobbit again and still find that peri is for both fairy and elf is a bit confusing, hahaha. My friend told me that it's because my copy is the first edition though. The latest edition of The Hobbit and LoTR and any other Tolkien books now use peri for fairy but decided not to translate elf. So they keep it as elf in Tolkien books Indonesian edition now.

My copy of Children of Hurin has illustrations by Alan Lee. So now I'll try to post those illustrations (that I can find on the internet) here and in chronologically chapter order.

The cover


The Heir of Hador Clan (since I read in Indonesian edition, I don't know if it's really the title; the Indonesian translation is Pewaris Klan Hador which means The Heir of Hador Clan or should I say House instead of Clan?. I've searched in the internet but haven't found the real title yet. I'll update this post, once I find it)


Hurin and Huor Are Carried to Gondolin


There's actually one more illustration at the end of chapter one but I couldn't find it on the internet. The title is Hurin Goes to War at Nirnaeth Arnoediad (again, I'm not sure if it's the actual title in English. I only translated from Indonesian title).

Heidi wrote: "Lol! That is awesome:) I actually had to restrain myself but I DID read the Notes and Chapter 1 yesterday! And..."

I'll try to start the book next week :)

John wrote: "Yay but I might have got a little impatient and started it last week! 😳"

Yay! How far are you now?

James wrote: "If you want a real treat, try reading it aloud and listening to the words. I think one aspect of Tolkien is his unique ability to capture voice in his writing. As famous as the opening paragraph is..."

What a great idea, James!

I haven't started it yet, but I will definitely to read the first chapter aloud. And since I will read it both in my own language and in English, I wonder if there's any different when I read it aloud :)
Thank you for suggesting it.

Thanks for the link, Heidi! I will definitely check it out later. I think I need times to read and absorb the whole article :D

So sorry for not being able to post Children of Hurin illustration while we were reading it. I'll try to catch it up now. So here's the illustrations by Elena Kukanova, Wita's favorite artist :) I got it from her website and will post it without chronologically chapter order.

Hurin


Morwen


Turin


Nienor


Beleg


Doriath: Beleg and Young Turin


Turin and Findulas


Nienor and Glaurung


The Death of Glaurung

By the end of the book, I get to see that I like CoH better as a chapter (in TS) than as a book. I think you feel it that way? Because it is more enjoyable to read for me in TS than here in its own book.

I never thought of Túrin as you thought of him, as an adrenaline junkie but I think you can be right. He is an adrenaline junkie. He keeps searching something to fight and such. After all, there are these kind of people in our real world, right?

I can see your point of view and understand why you don't like CoH. So yeah I guess we agree to disagree :D

I don't love CoH, but I do like it. I like that Tolkien can make a story that is so gloomy, depressing and there's no hope in it, to me it's quite a different reading. I honestly never read any book that's everything just hopeless for the characters. So it's like one of a kind reading hahaha.

And if I'm not wrong, Tolkien wrote CoH when he was still in the army, in WWI when he had to face the fact that most of his friends died because of it. So I guess the cruelty of war and the death of his friends effected him so much he wrote this hopeless story.

I do think it's more about part of his growing up (like the one you thought in message 4) than closed off from Túrin conscience but then again, on second thoughts, it can also be right.

There's this view in Indonesia, mostly in Sundanese and Javanese ethnicities, that if female young adult has certain thing in her life it shows that she is closed off from her "natural innocence" and in a way she can considerably as an adult. In this case, I think it's the same thing so this "theory" also makes sense to me.

If you have any illustration about The Hobbit, from any artist, please post it here.

Joshua wrote: "Hello!

Okay so I read the Children of Hurin last year and right now I'm reading the new full story of Beren and Luthien that was published a few months ago. BUT, I loved CoH.

Whereabouts are you?..."

Hi Joshua!
I've finished it last week. So I'm ready with everything you want tp discuss. I don't know about Heidi though. Maybe she has finished too but don't have time to discuss it with us.

What do you like about CoH?

And Beren and Luthien! I want to read it too but I heard it's more a documentary (like History of Middle-earth) than a full novel one. Is it true? I don't think I want to read it now, if it's a documentary. I have one of the HoME and I haven't finished it yet even after all these years :)