Rachmi ’s Comments (group member since Mar 31, 2016)

Rachmi ’s comments from the J.R.R. Tolkien Epic Reads group.

Happy New Year, everyone!

Since I'm still captivated with The Silmarillion and cannot stop reading it, I decided to continue my reading to chapter 21. But since I don't know if you guys have read too, or not, I think it's better if I hide my thoughts in that spoilers things. And when you have read it, I will just delete that spoilers warning :)

What a story I just read! (view spoiler)[I think it's one of the most tragic stories I have ever read. What happened to Húrin and his children were mostly because of the curse, it began with Húrin but then it was also because Túrin's proud and irresponsible behavior that led him into those bad luck. I couldn't tell if his bad luck were because of the curse or not, but for me his characters were also leading him to his downfall. In this case he's a bit similar to Fëanor.

I also couldn't help to think what Galurung and Brandir said about him were right, in a way. He was indeed a stabber in the dark, treacherous to foes, faithless to friends, and a curse unto his kin. So it was better when ...Turambar is dead; and those tidings are good. Because he also brought so many bad things and luck to people around him, not only to himself and his family. But what do you guys think?

The interest part about this chapter is the way Morwen asked Thingol to raise  Túrin in Doriath and hide his true identity. It's similar to Aragorn's childhood when his father died and his mother asked Elrond to raise him and eventually he love him too.

It looks like Tolkien liked to make similar things happened to different characters in different times. But it makes sense so I don't mind with it. (hide spoiler)]

Mary wrote: "There are times when Tolkien is almost as bad at repeating names as real life."

I think it's fine repeating names if it's from the same race, but it will be different if it happens in different race.

So in this case, it's just coincidence then? And Tolkien didn't realize that there's already Haldir the Man when he wrote Haldir the Elf in the LoTR?

If it's the case, I think it's (maybe) because there are so many things he wants to tell and write in Middle-earth universe he kinda mixed up the names.

Chapter 20 (I think this chapter is schedule for January reading, but since my reading slump two weeks ago, I couldn't find any book that appeal me. Not the case for The Silmarillion, after I reread chapter 19 I feel much better. So I decided to read chapter 20 yesterday :D).

Since the beginning of this chapter, I already know that there will be too many death and blood in it. It's just sad reading a chapter about battle that I already know that Morgoth will win it.

Although Maedhros thinks it is possible to defeat Morgoth, I do think it's pretty impossible. Morgoth is still too strong for them; he's not in a rush, he builds his army and alliance while Maedhros, though he has the Union of Maedhros, he still lack of alliance, especially from his kin.

I wonder if somehow in the future Feanor's descendants will have good relationship with Fingolfin and Finarfin's descendant despite they being constrained by Feanor oath.

And what if Meadhros asked Thingol nicely without threatening him, to be in the Union of Maedhros and give the Silmaril to him, will he give it to him and go to war with him? If he's in the Union of Maedhros, there's a chance that Melian will help them too. And Melian being a Maia surely a great help for them. She's stronger than the Elves.

I also think that they join the Easterling is like gambling. I mean I get the impression, (or maybe it's just me? assuming) that Easterling cannot be trusted in previous chapters. Sure, they aren't all bad, but look at what Ulfang did. If it weren't for his betrayal, there's a chance the Union of Maedhros can win the war. On the other hand, this even more makes sense with what happen with Easterling in the Lord of the Rings. So once again, I'm amazed by how neat Tolkien tangled all these things in Middle-earth universe.

And reading about Bor and Ulfang, makes me curious which one of them are higher (as in status and whatnot), as they both are chieftain. Does it also mean that there is (different) level (or maybe some kind tribes) in Easterling? I hope you understand what I mean :)

It's surprising me that this war is also an alliance between three races; Elves, Men and Dwarves. And knowing that Elves and Dwarves still have good relationship here in First Age, while it's pretty bad in the Lord of the Rings in Third Age (or is it Fourth Age?), before Legolas be friend with Gimli, I wonder when their relationship becomes bad and what causes it?

And...there's another name that is used by different character in the Lord of the Rings. After Boromir in previous chapters, here comes Haldir. But he's a Man here while in the Lord of the Rings he is an Elf. I don't think it's coincidence but did Tolkien really meant it? writing two different characters with the same name. With Boromir, it's kinda make sense, I think. As they are both Men, but not so much with Haldir. Do Elves really know about Men's ancestral? They live longer than Men, so they knowledge of them are surely more than Men about the Elves. But do they really pay attention to Men? And which one comes first, Haldir in the Lord of the Rings or Haldir in here? Or are they the same age? But then it means that Haldir in the Lord of the Rings is way older than Elrond. If it is the case, does it possible? Am I asking to many questions? :D

Mary wrote: "First -- Tuor and Idril come after."

Thanks Mary :)

Beren at Thingol's Court by Felix Sotomayor


The Oath of Felagund by Antti Autio


Finrod is reminded of his oath by Anke Eißmann

Luthien Tinuviel by Alan Lee


Beren by Tuuliky

Chapter 19, Of Beren And Luthien. Illustrated by Ted Nasmith

At Tarn Aeluin


Luthien Escapes Upon Huan


Luthien


Tinuviel Reborn


Transformed


Beren and Lúthien are Flown to Safety


Huan's Leap


Lúthien Escapes the Treehouse

Heidi wrote: "I have read chapter 19 and really enjoyed it. It is long. (And so is this post!)

1. I loved that Beren had kinship with animals and how that contributed to the plot; plus that he feared captivity ..."

I really enjoyed this chapter too! As a chapter I think it's quite long but as a story I want more of Beren and Luthien :D

Do you know that there will be a Beren and Luthien book publish next year? If you don't know yet, then here it is, . But I read in Indonesian Tolkien Society that it will not be a full novel, more likely a documentation of the changing in Beren and Luthien's story and characters that Tolkien wrote from 1900s till 1972 and then edited by Christopher Tolkien for The Silmarillion. But since it hasn't published yet, I think I can just hope that it's a full novel, because I don't think I can read another documentation like HoME. Not now, anyway. Maybe later, hahaha.

Agree, the romantic side of this story feels like a contrast with all the wicked things brought by Morgoth, Sauron, Carcharoth and orcs. But I also liked how Celegorm and Curufin are still in their true characters as Feanor's sons. So again even in this story, we still have that back-stabbing moments.

Tolkien himself thinks that the story of Beren and Luthien is the core of the legendarium. And in a way, I think it's close to his heart, so close that in his and his wife, Edith, gravestone are written:



(Correct me if I'm wrong) And Beren and Luthien is the second couple (after Tuor and Idril) that have mixed race marital, elf and men. Not to mention that Tolkien wrote this tale first, long before he wrote Aragorn and Arwen. So I think it's understandable that Aragon and Arwen tale is similar to Beren and Luthien.

But what I love most about the tale is in Aragorn and Arwen, the two races is finally come together, as Aragorn is the descendant of Elros, Elrond's brother. It's pretty fascinating, to be honest. Especially if I see their family tree :)

I do think that Luthien's escape a bit reminded me of Rapunzel. But Luthien has cloak that really awesome!

7. Her healing of Beren reminds me of Arwen's healing of Frodo outside Rivendell. I think this is only in FoTR the movie, right? It's been a while since I read LoTR but if I'm not wrong, it's Glorfindel who ride with Frodo after the Weathertop scene.

Middle Earth would have fallen into complete and utter darkness if it weren't for the eagles! Hahaha true! Thorondor and the eagles are always there in critical situation or impossible place to go.

so it was sad when he died I was so sad when Huan died. I'm more sad knowing he died than when I read Finrod Felagund died. Well I don't want Finrod to die but I kinda expected it, as most of major characters are died here, but Huan was a twist and surprise for me.

Glaurung is Humbled by Ted Nasmith



Dragon of Middle-Earth, found it on DevianArt. There's no mention who drew it.



Smaug is pretty small compare to these dragons. And look how big Ancalagon is! I cannot wait to meet him :)

And when I search this picture, I came across to know that Glaurung cannot fly, since he doesn't have wings like Smaug and Ancalagon. Somehow it's quite surprising me.

Fall of Fingolfin by John Howe

The Map of Beleriand by John Howe



I really like that in this map, there are also heraldic, 6 heraldic to be exact. So I've checked those heraldic and the result are the top right belongs to Gil-Galad, and then Luthien, and at the bottom of the right is Fingolfin. The bottom of the left side belongs to Finarfin, next is Luthien (why does she have two heraldic? can anyone explain to me?). As at the top left, I still don't know :) Couldn't find it.

Illustration by John Howe

1. The Siege of Gondolin



2. The Siege of Angband



I wonder, which one of those pictures fits for the leaguer (siege) you mentioned in the discussion thread or if this is where the leaguer (siege) takes place, Heidi?

Chapter 18, Of The Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin.

Fingolfin's Wrath by Ted Nasmith



I love this illustration, maybe because I love Tolkien description when Fingolfin challenge Margoth.

Another is called The Orc-Host is Ambushed in Brethil.

Chapter 17, Of The Coming of Men into The West. From Ted Nasmith illustration, called Felagund Among Beor's Men.



The title of the chapter reminds me of Annie Lennox's song from LoTR: The Return of the King, Into The West :) And somehow I don't know why this picture reminds me of the scene when Aragorn tells story to the hobbits in LoTR: FoTR, I think.

Forgot to point out another things :)

I love this one.

Thus he came alone to Angband’s gates, and he sounded his horn, and smote once more upon the brazen doors, and challenged Morgoth to come forth to single combat. And Morgoth came.

That was the last time in those wars that he passed the doors of his stronghold, and it is said that he took not the challenge willingly; for though his might was greatest of all things in this world, alone of the Valar he knew fear. But he could not now deny the challenge before the face of his captains;

I think it's smart for Fingolfin to challenge Morgoth that way. Morgoth certainly cannot ignore Fingolfin, not in front of his captains. And it's interesting that he's the only Valar that knew fear. It makes him more similar to human (men), I think?

Oh speaking of Gondolin, I think there's a book (a story?) which is called The Fall of Gondolin. I don't find it here in Goodreads though, but I'm pretty sure I've heard the title before.

Could it be in one of Tolkien books, such as in one of History of Middle Earth books or Unfinished Tales?

Heidi wrote: "Chapter 18. I finished this last night and needed some time to absorb it and collect my thoughts.

1. Boy, it was depressing! When Tolkien titled it Of the Ruin of Beleriand, "Ruin" was no underst..."

Yay, Morgoth! Lol. He is one truly evil, doesn't he? He's so envy he cannot see straight, I think. And Sauron as the greatest and and most terrible of Morgoth's servants, I guess he learns from the best, hahaha. I just cannot imagine, though. Sauron is really bad and strong in LoTR, which is mean Morgoth is much stronger and more evil than him. No wonder he is the ultimate evil in the middle-earth universe.

3. The dark minions: dragons, balrogs, and orcs ... this will sustain through Tolkien's work. About the dragons, I remember that I once saw the different size of some dragons in Tolkien story, two of them are Glaurung and Smaug. The difference is amazing. I think I'll post the picture later in illustration thread :)

4. I thought Fingolfin's final stand against Morgoth was quite dramatic and moving, and as Feanor's half-brother, seems he got some of the Finwe's "warrior" temperament ... at least he crippled Morgoth.

I don't know why but Fingolfin crippled Morgoth made me think of the prologue in LoTR: FoTR the movie where Isildur cut Sauron's finger to take the One Ring. I don't remember if it's from the book or PJ created it. I should check it our later then.

I never read The Silmarillion in English version anymore, it's just too much for me (for now, I hope). So at first I didn't know what do you mean by Swarthy Men as in Indonesian edition, it's translated into Manusia-Manusia Berkulit Gelap (The Dark-Skinned Men). This makes me think that in a way I think I'm kinda lose much, not reading TS in English. Hopefully, once I reread TS next year (as I'm thinking to reread the whole book right after we finish our buddy reading), I can also read it in English :)

Anyway, some of this Swarthy Men is Easterling, right? please correct me if I misunderstood it. I think Easterling comes from The sons of Ulfang the Black were Ulfast, and Ulwarth, and Uldor the accursed; and they followed Caranthir and swore allegiance to him, and proved faithless.

8. Wita, anyone else? is the Hurin in this chapter the Hurin of The Children of Hurin? I did like how he and Huor were saved and taken by the King of Eagles to Gondolin and spent time there. I'm pretty sure now, that this Hurin is the Hurin of The Children of Hurin.

9. I had to look up the word "leaguer" since I really didn't know what it meant: siege! If you didn't know what leaguer is, then I bet I won't know it either Lol. I still don't know which part you're talking about though. I'll check about it later in my English edition.

It's still 100% confusing for me! For some reason, I keep forgetting the names! And have to go back several times to previous chapters to get it right. That's why I need to reread the book in one reading, without any interruption from other books. I think that way, I won't forget it easily. Hopefully, hahaha.

Heidi wrote: "Chapter 17.

I kind of liked this chapter because: Here come the Men:) So here we see the Felagund who never married in ch. 15 befriending Men, and teaching them the ways of the Eldar and becoming ..."

This chapter was pretty confusing for me, what with those names of the three Houses. My goodness...I can barely follow it! :D And have to stop reading for a minute to picture all of those name in my mind and draw my own family tree. This was before I realized that there are indeed family tree of the three houses at the back of my book! Lol

But it's also interesting as we finally meet some of famous names! Hurin and also Turin (Turambar).

I don't think you missed something, as I didn't get anything about it either.

I recognized Haleth too and instantly thought about the boy from The Two Tower film. So I checked his name in the book. Apparently there's a boy named Haleth in LoTR, so he wasn't made by Peter Jackson. But he only appears in the appendix. I guess PJ created him from there, not from the main story of LoTR.

Yes, Hurin here is definitely the one and only Hurin from The Children of Hurin, the father of Turin Turambar.

Agree with you, the difference between the three Houses of the Men are interesting. They are pretty different we can easily differentiate them. I do think the Numenor comes from the House of Beor.

And now about Barahir. I know a bit about Beren, but never think that he is the son of Barahir. Silly me, I know :D And was wondering if he is the Barahir that has a ring that later is given to Aragorn, ring of Barahir.

Btw, to answer your question So ... it's interesting that the Indonesian translation uses "About", maybe it is because of nuances in the Indonesian language that differ slightly from English? I think so too. The nuances (and tone?) about "About" is pretty different from English. I'm quite curious about this, to be honest. And have checked the synonym of "About" in Indonesian and find one word, but I haven't checked its real meaning. So I still don't know whether that synonym is close to "Of" meaning or not. I guess I still have to check it later :)

Elwe and Melian by Elena Kukanova



Yavanna by Elena Kukanova

And I also I got these beautiful illustration by Elena Kukanova. She's one of Wita favorites, I think :)

Melian



I think Melian here looks a bit like Tilda Swinton, no? She's beautiful, though.

And here's Thingol