Pam’s Comments (group member since Dec 29, 2016)

Pam’s comments from the Our Shared Shelf group.

Jasmine wrote: ".And where in all this is the male species held accountable for the way they've subjugated women for all of history?

The notion of male leadership needs to be challenged wherever it is found. A moratorium put on male promotions etc. "

That sounds a lot like reparation.

I'm all for justice. I'm all for putting away people who rape and pray on innocence etc.

But I'm not going to condemn a person for being born with a penis. If anything, I'm going to educate them on their responsibility and privledge that comes with being born with a penis just as if they were born in a certain country or socioeconomic level, or with a clean bill of health without disability or with a loving family or with a pet or living near a park with slides and a jungle gym

I'm sorry you feel like you're owed something. I'm sorry that you don't think you can succeed without handicapping those around you. But my baby brother doesn't owe you anything.

Ana wrote: "If I may suggest something, it would be to keep it easy and accesible at the beginning. After all, he is your relative, he's also of a certain generation, which as you already noted makes it harder..."

Excellent point. If possible Caitlin, read the book(s) too. Discuss it with him. Share things that caused an emotional response: anger, surprise, joy. Ask him questions. Etc etc.

This way, you two are creating a dialogue. You're understanding him as much as he is understanding you.

Jasmine wrote: "..Then why do you agree with me that the future is female if you don't agree with my reasoning? "

Thanks Jasmine. Hope this helps explain my thoughts. Let me know if you have any questions.
- rape and sexual violence cases are finally seeing trials and justice. Rape kits are being processed. Universities are changing policy on how they confront it. Laws and judgements are being reviewed as not harsh enough detriments. http://time.com/time-person-of-the-ye...
- Representation is being acknowledged. Not just women in roles. But black women. Asian women. Queer women. Old women. And this representation is not just in front of the camera, but behind it as well. More and more opportunities are afforded to women https://seejane.org/about-us/ - see downloadable impact study-
- Microfinancing for women in developing countries. Helping them to bring in incomes and to help dictate their families future. Giving these women jobs is changing how their communities act towards women with money. This is the same concept that transformed the US housewife in the 1950s. Once women having control over their own economic well being, they'll begin to see targeted ads and products focusing on them which will increase demand and increase jobs. https://www.kiva.org/about/finances/a...
- Literacy rates are improving Polio is all but eliminated. Malaria going down. And a slew of other facts that shows that the infant mortality rate is going down. Which you would think creates a population boom, but rather it leads to a population decline. Because families aren't loosing children, they can actually take care of the ones they have which means...women aren't pregnant 24/7 and are able to gain employment and have an economic future should they wish it.https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed...
- little boys are allowed to show emotion. Men are finally allowed to gain custody of children in divorces. It's becoming more acceptable for guys to be virgins instead of being pressured into proving the virility. They can like/ support/ be a fan of female protagonists or artists without being told that's not manly. They don't have to pay for every date! They don't have to explain why they are a nurse without having to call it a murse or a lesser doctor. They are starting to be able to wear dresses and have more wardrobe than a shirt and pants. Because patriarchy harms all genders. Which is why I don't want it to be reversed so that we have a martiarchy that creates social rules that subjegates us again. Yeah, I might be on the better side, but I'll still being contained by social expectations.

You and I agree that women deserve and will get more. But I suppose when I agree that the future is female, I'm saying that in a couple of years there is going to be an awful lot of good news for women. We're making large successful strides at being an equal part of the conversation.

But I don't want a martiarchy. I've been through the patriarchy. I wouldn't want to put someone else through that

Hey Holiday, thanks for the link.

If by surpass you mean women are aiming more degrees, agree. We are. For the first time in the history of the degrees.

But is that a claim that we are the superior gender? I don't agree. Because it did, after all, take us the entire history of degrees to get this point. If we were so superior... why did it take so long? If we were superior, why did we allow ourselves to be persecuted and undermined?

To me, to say that we are the superior gender means that the work of our forebears was not that big of a deal. To say the labor strikes and food strikes are inconsequential. And I don't buy that.

As much as I don't buy that men are the superior gender either. Cause they're not. Individuals of both genders make stupid, greedy and utterly depraved decisions. We are equal in our failings as much as we are equal in our greatness.

I do believe we will see more women come to the forefront and excell. Because they are reaping the opportunity that both genders helped create.

Jasmine wrote: "On a level playing field, boys can't compete, they get whiny, they get lazy. Girls however are ambitious, hard-working, used to fighting an uphill battle and therefore succeed.

I like your passion, but this here is a generalization. I know plenty of lazy, unambitious people on both sides.

And while yes, more women are getting their degrees we also need to be mindful as to other factors surrounding those degrees.

- Are these degrees in a bankable skill set? Medieval Literature or Theatre Management aren't highly sought after as much as a STEM degree. Quality is just as important as quantity.
- Is there a war going on in which the military is still hiring mostly men for combat work?
- Having a degree is by no means a ticket to a job. As a culture were seeing more and more the importance of Trade Skills over college debt.

I see your intelligence point and raise you Sarah Palin and Michele Bachmann. And I see your women in business and I raise you Heather Bresch or Marissa Mayer.

I agree that the future is woman. But not because we're the superior gender. No gender is better than the other. Just like no race is better than the other.

And as a Kiwi, too. Which is fascinating to me, because you'll started the movement with allowing women to vote before anyone else did.

I would recommend "Hidden Figures" as it discusses the necessity of having of African American women helping in the space race. Takes place in 50's.

Some E books https://mch.govt.nz/news-events/press...

...tight regulation of corporations, and robust universal social programs won’t feel as compassionate or intimate to anybody in the moment. No one’s eyes will well with tears of gratitude, and there will be no admiring applause. Instead the relief will occur continuously, diffusely and cumulatively, on a mass scale. It will feel impersonal, and individual gratification will be deferred"

Exactly. No one gets to pat themselves on the back or gain some positive publicity be it an individual or company. It's why we like charities. We throw money at the problem without realizing what we really need is to throw dignity and humanity at it instead.

We have never seen a matriarchy last for generations. Women have been in power, but save for a few remote villages in India and islands in the Pacific, we haven't had generational matriarchy in a position of lasting power.

Can we say the same about an equal society? Have we had an egalitarian society yet? And if not, how far away are we from achieving it?

MaryJane wrote: " The part that intrigued
me most were the women of Iceland"

An excellent example of women in leadership. (Going to have to check out the movie, thank you) And had been that way for almost two generations if not three since the 1975 strike and the first female president in Europe in 1980.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc....

Not a matriarchy. But a strong nod to what women can accomplish in seats of power. Thanks!

Emma wrote: "I also liked how the electricity was a symbol for female empowerment."

Can you expand on that Emma? Or others. And let me know what you think about these quotes

"She cuppeth the power in her hand. She commandeth it to strike"
And
" And can you call back the lightening? Or does it return to your hand?"

Happy Early New Year OSS!

May you experience more laughter than fear, more dialogues than arguments, and more prosperity all around. May your 2018 be bright.

James wrote: "Yikes"

James, Winston... Would either of you like to expand on your thoughts? I'm assuming you're against matriarchy...

Absolutely. 100% agree.

An interesting point.

I don't think that we have discussed the merits or disadvantages of having a matriarchy. Just that women are capable of the same violence and oppression as our male counterparts.

Sooo.. OSS... who here is in favor of a matriarchy and who is against? Please include your reasons.

As a follow up to Anita's post and spoilers for The Last Jedi. -. So many women had lines and meaningful parts! It was exciting.

Also...for a look at how the current world is creating a toxic masculinity in a galaxy far far away. Caution there be spoilers so don't read it until you've watched the movie. http://www.denofgeek.com/us/movies/st...

Hi Naomi,

Thank you for a thought provoking tale. I applaud you for looking at how the power could be applied across all sorts of individuals, especially from the odd person out perspective. It added to the richness and complexity of your story.

You wrote Jos as a female who didn't quite have a functioning skein and Ryan who had an natural skein as a man. Can you tell us more about the genesis of these characters and their view points? Did you create these characters as representatives of a specific community such as the disabled or LGBTQ?

LGBTQ themes.

Am I the only one who thought that Ryan, Jos's boyfriend, might be a sign that Naomi was saying he might not be entirely cis /straight?

My favorite symbol so far has been the Hand. This symbol appears a few times throughout the novel

- Repurposing old to fit the new.. Eve repurposes the Hand of Fatima as a symbol for her new religious group and followers begun to tattoo it on their palms. The repackaging of this symbol has been Eve's deal through out. She talks in broad terms and let's her followers fill in th details. (As most cult leaders do). As well as saying all is one. That Kali/Tara/Miriam/Fatima God/Allah/Buddha all are repacked to fit her needs.

- Hand with 5 Fingers. The Hand of Fatima, usually represents the five pillars of Islam. But in the book this can be construed as representing the 5 main protagonists and their journey. Margot, Roxy, Eve, Tunde, and Jos

- Open Hand= branching power. The fingers are splayed, meaning that the hand is not creating a fist (unity, together). This repeats the idea that the power branches out. It is not contained in a single line but "branching and rebranching, spreading wider in ever thinner, searching fingers".

I would like to formally submit that while the Day of Girls changed the power structure in some places, it did not change the individuals. In other words, having electrical power did not change our various protagonists and how they deal with problems.

- Allie stayed behind the scenes, trying to influence or manipulate people around her.
- Margot prepared, experimented and worked until she was ready to reveal herself.
- Roxy was Roxy Monke. Her name and her connections took her far, but it was her strength of will that saw her through.


Thoughts?

Looks like a good number of us saw that this book is about power struggles.

But what are some of the themes Alderman uses to convey this?
Additionally, what symbols does she use to add to these ideas?